Dweomerkeeper vs. Anima Mage

[claypigeons]

Assuming a divine Anima Mage adaptation is allowed, and "Anyspell" can qualify you for dweomerkeeper...

Which offers a stronger character? By your estimation or opinion. Getting high enough for 8ths and 9ths is not guaranteed.

Pretty much every book is available, and small amounts of gouda are allowed.

[Nettlekid]

Depends on which spells you use. Anima Mage is stronger in terms of like, going out and adventuring, because it allows three free Persists every day (which sort of goes to 6 Persists if you Extend your daily three) while Dweomerkeeper is stronger on a strategic front because it allows you to ignore costs of spells, which means you can use high GP and XP cost spells for free. Like all spellcaster builds, the 9th level spells really make or break it. There's not much that can deal with a Persisted Shapechange. But free True Resurrection is pretty neat. Both builds can get infinite Wishes, so that's a bit of a moot point.

All things considered, they're both PrCs which boost a base spellcaster's power considerably. I think I go with Dweomerkeeper, but Anima Mage is cooler (and easier to get into).

EDIT: And, of course, there's no reason we can't have both!

[JaronK]

Note that Anima Mage pairs extremely well with Tainted Sorcerer (Naberius heals the con damage, TS can free extend the persisted spells, etc) and that class also allows for removal of material component costs, making the Dweomerkeeper less attractive for this comparison.

JaronK

[Anthrowhale]

Supernatural Spell is essentially unique in the game while Persistence can be acquired by other means. The Stutter Caster in my sig is almost certainly too powerful for what you want, but it shows a way to abuse DK.

[Sugashane]

Supernatural Spell is essentially unique in the game while Persistence can be acquired by other means. The Stutter Caster in my sig is almost certainly too powerful for what you want, but it shows a way to abuse DK.

I love both classes, but if you can find a deity with both Spell and Magic domains then it is almost too easy to abuse Dweomekeeper, especially at high levels. Casting Miracle, Permanency from Greater Anyspell, and permanency-ing any other spell from Anyspell or Miracle all at zero experience loss? Fantastic.

[Chronos]

Dweomerkeeper has one trick. It's a really, really good trick, but it's still just one trick. Anima Mage, even aside from the metamagic shenanigans, also has a mid-high progression of an entirely separate magic system, which opens up lots of tricks. I know which one I prefer.

[Nettlekid]

But the thing about those tricks is that really, while Binder is pretty cool and all, there's nothing you get from any vestige that rivals the raw power of magic spells. Balam's 1/5 turn reroll is pretty good. But that's about it, and that's more defensive/reactive anyway. Everything else deals with too many saves, or inefficient attack methods (like Sudden Strike).

Meanwhile, the Anima Mage's best trick is free Persisted spells. This is very good. But odds are, you're going to have at least one level of Cleric when you go into Dweomerkeeper. In fact, you can go full Cleric, since Anyspell will let you cast Arcane spells, so Cleric qualifies you completely. So if it's Persisted spells you're after, you've got DMM to take care of that, plus you can use those Su spells to make sure they can't be dispelled throughout the day! Great for ensuring a healthy Greater Consumptive Field. And there's the aforementioned XP-free spells, such as Permanency, which really lends itself to mischief if you have the downtime. Same goes for some of the more obscure spells, like Shalantha's Delicate Disk, which you could use to store as many lower level spells as you wanted (without paying the cost thanks to your Su spell). Really, I have to agree that the Su Spell's unique ability trumps most things.

Now I've just realized that you might be able to make a pretty good Rainbow Servant/Dweomerkeeper build (since you don't need to take all the levels of Dweomerkeeper to be really good. 6 is good, I think.) Imagine, Su Teleport Through Time.

[peacenlove]

But the thing about those tricks is that really, while Binder is pretty cool and all, there's nothing you get from any vestige that rivals the raw power of magic spells. Balam's 1/5 turn reroll is pretty good. But that's about it, and that's more defensive/reactive anyway. Everything else deals with too many saves, or inefficient attack methods (like Sudden Strike).

Meanwhile, the Anima Mage's best trick is free Persisted spells. This is very good. But odds are, you're going to have at least one level of Cleric when you go into Dweomerkeeper. In fact, you can go full Cleric, since Anyspell will let you cast Arcane spells, so Cleric qualifies you completely. So if it's Persisted spells you're after, you've got DMM to take care of that, plus you can use those Su spells to make sure they can't be dispelled throughout the day! Great for ensuring a healthy Greater Consumptive Field. And there's the aforementioned XP-free spells, such as Permanency, which really lends itself to mischief if you have the downtime. Same goes for some of the more obscure spells, like Shalantha's Delicate Disk, which you could use to store as many lower level spells as you wanted (without paying the cost thanks to your Su spell). Really, I have to agree that the Su Spell's unique ability trumps most things.

Now I've just realized that you might be able to make a pretty good Rainbow Servant/Dweomerkeeper build (since you don't need to take all the levels of Dweomerkeeper to be really good. 6 is good, I think.) Imagine, Su Teleport Through Time.

Zceryll's infinite summons. Acererac's undispellable energy / positive resistances.
Read the last ability of Anima mage. Note that it applies to ANY spell.
Have fun abusing.

[Psyren]

Zceryll's infinite summons. Acererac's undispellable energy / positive resistances.
Read the last ability of Anima mage. Note that it applies to ANY spell.
Have fun abusing.

There's also Astaroth's crafting/bardic knowledge, Buer's infinite OOC healing, Tenebrous' Infravision, Malphas' spy-bird, and just about everything about Naberius. Dantalion's teleport can be used to get out of bindings even if you're gagged. All of these are available to an Anima Mage with 1 or even 0 levels in Binder (using the favorable interpretation of soul binding advancement.)

[Nettlekid]

Zceryll's infinite summons. Acererac's undispellable energy / positive resistances.
Read the last ability of Anima mage. Note that it applies to ANY spell.
Have fun abusing.

There's also Astaroth's crafting/bardic knowledge, Buer's infinite OOC healing, Tenebrous' Infravision, Malphas' spy-bird, and just about everything about Naberius. Dantalion's teleport can be used to get out of bindings even if you're gagged. All of these are available to an Anima Mage with 1 or even 0 levels in Binder (using the favorable interpretation of soul binding advancement.)

The infinite summons are indeed useful, although limited to one at a time so not truly infinite, but yeah, fair. The positive/negative energy resistance (not healing, but w/e) can be duplicated with a spell quite easily, or even an armor ability, and you could go ahead and make it Su if you were so concerned about it being dispelled. If you have Shapechange available, there are forms you can take which grant Crafting and Bardic Knowledge anyway. If you're a high level caster of divine spells, not-quite-infinite-but-more-than-you'll-ever-need healing is the least of your troubles. The infravision and spy-bird are also imitated through very low level spells (Ebon Eyes and Chain of Eyes). Any Su Teleport can do the same as Dantalion's. Anima Mage does have some cool tricks, but none of them are particularly unique, and many can be done equally well or better with spells.

(The Immediate Action Spell is very good, true, fun for things like Geas or Apocalypse From the Sky, but 10 levels of Anima Mage is less easy than three levels of Spellguard of Silverymoon, which lets you cast any spell as a full-round action, which is less efficient sure but if you're talking about shortening 10 minute spells then it's not much of a difference.)

[peacenlove]

...

(The Immediate Action Spell is very good, true, fun for things like Geas or Apocalypse From the Sky, but 10 levels of Anima Mage is less easy than three levels of Spellguard of Silverymoon, which lets you cast any spell as a full-round action, which is less efficient sure but if you're talking about shortening 10 minute spells then it's not much of a difference.)

Personal preference: Spell slots for offense/utility, modified as appropriate with Uncanny forethought (higher levels have a laundry list of immunities). Binds give me the flexibility of defence/tactics I want, (Aforementioned Tenebrous gives flicker (Su immediate teleport, less need for conjurer specialist), globe of deeper darkness (at the right distance you are out of LOS for most effects) and see in darkness).

Zceryll's free Mindsight complements neatly with other detection spells and cannot be replicated efficiently with other spells.
Ability rip (http://dndtools.eu/spells/serpent-kingdoms--24/ability-rip--3252/) and trait removal (http://dndtools.eu/spells/serpent-kingdoms--24/trait-removal--3258/) are excellent ways (with reach spell of course, use pathfinder's one, it is more flexible) to defend yourself against more exotic threats, if used as an immediate action.
My favorite is granting Jovok's retributive aura to a barbarian/Frenzied berserker with pain mastery feat/deathless frenzy, bombing him with 300+ damage orbs (+12 strength per orb, 300+/150+ untyped damage AoE 30', no SR). More efficient with AoE but orbs are optimized better.
Hint: Pair it with constant Zceryll summons. Anima mage can replicate most of the things Dweomerkeeper can do (wizard spell list no wonder). We are talking about stylistic differences at this power level.
Or complement your favorite shapechanged form with new abilities. Or whatever you can abuse it for.


If you have Shapechange available, there are forms you can take which grant Crafting and Bardic Knowledge anyway.

I am not aware of any non-unique creatures that have all crafting feats available as a Su or Ex ability. (I know Demogorgon and Orcus have them + Free XP per day to spend, but you cannot shapechange to them since they count as specific individuals IIRC). Please elaborate.

[Nettlekid]

I am not aware of any non-unique creatures that have all crafting feats available as a Su or Ex ability. (I know Demogorgon and Orcus have them + Free XP per day to spend, but you cannot shapechange to them since they count as specific individuals IIRC). Please elaborate.

It's not quite ALL crafting feats, granted, but the Midgard Dwarf gets Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and Forge Ring as bonus feats (granted by the Ex ability Master Smith). You'll have to workaround the XP cost some other way, but much like a Warlock the Midgard Dwarf removes the need to meet other prerequisites such as having the spell available to cast. That's good enough for me, since I rarely have the need to craft my own Rods and Staves.

[JaronK]

The infinite summons are indeed useful, although limited to one at a time so not truly infinite, but yeah, fair.

It's not limited to one at a time. It's 1 every 5 rounds, but the duration is Binder Level Rounds. And this gives you things like Divination once every 5 rounds, due to the variety of available summons.

Combined with the ability to have any item crafting feat you want when you want it, stat damage healing (combos INCREDIBLY with a number of powerful abilities for things like endless metamagic), and other incredibly useful abilities, and I think the Binder levels alone make Anima Mage a tough competitor.

JaronK