Legend of Korra Season II

[Cat Dungeon]

Trailer is up. Any thoughts? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ftLm52V1y0&feature=youtu.be) Doesn't seem to reveal much plot wise.

[MLai]

Watching the trailer cold, gave me a very jarring sensation regarding something that I had taken for granted and forgotten:

The avatar world has become much too modern for my liking. I've watched way too many animes set in modern times, for me to think an urban world with planes and motorcycles to be remotely interesting.

At least the animation quality is still top-notch.

[thubby]

i think the plot is fairly obvious. spirit world is going crazy because of the modern industrialization and abandonment of spirituality.

[Arcanist]

Oh this is just delicious... I might actually try and fix my T.V. to do other stuff beyond function like a giant monitor :smallamused:

[Silverraptor]

Why do I suspect that one random guy that pops up with the spirits will turn out to be the *first* avatar?

[HamHam]

Trailer looks interesting. After how bad the first season was though I'm going to resist getting hyped. When does it start?

[Cat Dungeon]

i think the plot is fairly obvious. spirit world is going crazy because of the modern industrialization and abandonment of spirituality.

You draw that conclusion how?:smallconfused:

[ThePhantom]

Interesting, it looks like the purple-colored spirits are going to be one of our bad guys this season, but what was with that kid who did the avatar ring thing?

I look forward to when it comes out.

[Weimann]

Season one of Korra didn't live up to Aang's legacy by a long shot, but it did have many cool spots and was only actually actively terrible one time (the last two minutes of the season). It was still a good teen's show, though, and I expect season two to be as well. I am optimistic, if not excited.

[Sith_Happens]

http://i.imgur.com/88U0w.gif

[thubby]

You draw that conclusion how?:smallconfused:

the march of technology is a theme of the series, spirits are freaking out in the trailer, avatar's job is maintaining the balance.

[Morty]

Colour me very, very sceptical. The trailer does look pretty good, but so did the trailers for Season One, and they bungled it up disastrously. I'm going to need more information before I'm willing to believe they'll do better this time.

[MLai]

As long as it doesn't have romance in it, it will be a good season.
So Mr. Brad Firebender Pitt needs to die in eps.1, or be captured by the spirits or something and sit out the entire season until the last episode.
I vote he dies.

[thubby]

Colour me very, very sceptical. The trailer does look pretty good, but so did the trailers for Season One, and they bungled it up disastrously. I'm going to need more information because I'm willing to believe they'll do better this time.

there's a k in that word.

anyway, i don't think that's a fair assessment. korra was a perfectly good series in its own right.
It wasnt as good as the original avatar, but considering the only thing that's the same is the universe in which it takes place that's hardly a fair thing to demand of it.

[Sith_Happens]

I just hope that Korra actually gets to fight some other benders. That was the only real fault of season one for me, the bender-on-bender fights were always the coolest part of A:TLA and LoK was extremely lacking in them (pro-bending doesn't count, seeing as it's totally not the same thing as a straight-up brawl).

[tensai_oni]

Please don't handle this in a simplistic "spirits/nature good, progress BAD!" way. I have other concerns for this show but really, if I were to hope for something not to happen, it's this.

[Tengu_temp]

The avatar world has become much too modern for my liking. I've watched way too many animes set in modern times, for me to think an urban world with planes and motorcycles to be remotely interesting.


How dare they have natural improvements of technologies already shown in TLA! All fantasy settings are contractually obligated to be technologically static, no matter how much time have passed!

[Morty]

there's a k in that word.

In American English, yes. In British English, it's spelled with a c. Look it up if you like.


anyway, i don't think that's a fair assessment. korra was a perfectly good series in its own right.
It wasnt as good as the original avatar, but considering the only thing that's the same is the universe in which it takes place that's hardly a fair thing to demand of it.

Season One of Korra was badly rushed, and the promising villains were turned into a complete joke by the end. I'm not comparing it to the original series; I'm judging it on its own merits, which are what they are.


Please don't handle this in a simplistic "spirits/nature good, progress BAD!" way. I have other concerns for this show but really, if I were to hope for something not to happen, it's this.

After what happened in Season One, I think it's quite a valid concern.

[dehro]

on one hand the fanboy in me is just glad there's going to be more.
on the other hand, I'm cautiously optimistic in that the authors must have read the universal criticism of how they rushed things in the first season, and they seem like people who would take on board such criticism. I'm cautiously hoping the pacing with be a whole lot better what with having a third season already confirmed, and more screentime to play with.
I do think there will be romance, having watched mrs Sato in this video.
so.. yeah.. can't wait to see if they do better than the first season and go back to being AtlA great.

[MLai]

How dare they have natural improvements of technologies already shown in TLA! All fantasy settings are contractually obligated to be technologically static, no matter how much time have passed!
I was rather hoping that the ATLA world at least go a separate technological route, for example steampunk. Or at least benderpunk or something. It's pretty prominent in ATLA; all the vehicles are bender-powered. But in LOK it's more as an afterthought.

Instead we have mechs, and then WWI planes which popped out near the end of the 1st season. Anyone wondering why the heck the nonbenders don't use guns? They have electricity, gunpowder, giant robots... but no guns?

[endoperez]

I was rather hoping that the ATLA world at least go a separate technological route, for example steampunk. Or at least benderpunk or something. It's pretty prominent in ATLA; all the vehicles are bender-powered. But in LOK it's more as an afterthought.

Instead we have mechs, and then WWI planes which popped out near the end of the 1st season. Anyone wondering why the heck the nonbenders don't use guns? They have electricity, gunpowder, giant robots... but no guns?

Perhaps thy're going a separate technological route, where all big guns (like the anti-air firebending turrets) are bender-powered?

[Fjolnir]

Re Guns: we had gunpowder as an explosive in A:tla and bender powered firepower in the form of Nozzles, turrets, and other panel/barrel shaped armaments. Most of the true bombs we saw were invented by the mechanist, and we know it took a while in our world to get from bombs & rockets to cannons to rifles and handguns, and of course the powers that be(nd) would discourage this particular avenue of research as well, I assume if the equalists had more time you would have seen gunnery but as it stands bows/crossbows are still more effective than guns in the avatarverse

[thubby]

well, it's important to note that all technology has a significant hurtle to overcome in the form of benders.
any technology that is going to see development in the avatar universe has to either be better or cheaper than a bender doing the same thing.

gunpowder against a firebender is a liability, against a water bender is easily dowsed, and earth benders can readily make themselves bullet proof.
i wouldn't see the technology catching on until something akin to the repeating rifle with its self contained cartridge was developed.

in our history that was ~1890. the avatar verse seems to be in the equivalent of the industrial revolution (1820-1840), so guns not being a significant force in the universe yet isn't that far flung.

what surprises me is the lack of bending technology at a personal level. something as simple as magnesium powder would make a fire bender capable of burning through steel.

[Sith_Happens]

Please don't handle this in a simplistic "spirits/nature good, progress BAD!" way. I have other concerns for this show but really, if I were to hope for something not to happen, it's this.

I have absolutely zero concerns that this is going to happen. The franchise has consistently been much more complex and mature about its themes than that (yes, even Korra season one; just because Amon's abilities were a sham doesn't mean that he had ulterior motives or that the Equalist movement itself didn't have a point), and I see no reason for that to stop now.


I was rather hoping that the ATLA world at least go a separate technological route, for example steampunk. Or at least benderpunk or something. It's pretty prominent in ATLA; all the vehicles are bender-powered. But in LOK it's more as an afterthought.

At least some of Republic City's electricity is generated via lightningbending.

[tensai_oni]

(yes, even Korra season one; just because Amon's abilities were a sham doesn't mean that he had ulterior motives or that the Equalist movement itself didn't have a point)

Have we watched the same show? It was stated out right that Amon's motives were 100% ulterior. Also the Equalist movement was so dedicated that as soon as it turned out Amon was lying, everyone - even his right-hand man, turned on him.

This is the exact opposite of mature writing. It doesn't show the Equalists as people who are fanatical but have (in their own eyes at least) good reasons for doing what they do, but just as another cartoon bad guys group. Maybe the former is what they started as, but the latter is how they ended up.

That's the problem with Korra in general. Great setup that gets dumbed down or trainwrecked into stupidity. I hope season 2 will avoid the mistakes of season one.

[thubby]

actually, the same toxic irrationality that makes fanatics what they are makes turning on former member fairly easy. in fact, the threat of that happening is part of what makes a cult work in the first place.

[BWR]

Hell yeah!
I have been watining for this. I always wanted to learn more about the spirits of this setting. My pet theory for Amon in season 1 was that he was a result of Aang draining the bending from too many characters, creating a spiritual backlash.

[tensai_oni]

Maybe if other Equalists saw Amon betray them. But no, all they saw is his fake scar being washed away, which means his backstory is false.

To which I ask - so what? If they were people of conviction in their cause, it would not be enough to undermine it. Especially since, Amon's backstory or not, for them he is still leading their cause. I mean we know as viewers that Amon is a giant hypocrite. But other Equalists do not.

[John Cribati]

Maybe if other Equalists saw Amon betray them. But no, all they saw is his fake scar being washed away, which means his backstory is false.

To which I ask - so what? If they were people of conviction in their cause, it would not be enough to undermine it. Especially since, Amon's backstory or not, for them he is still leading their cause. I mean we know as viewers that Amon is a giant hypocrite. But other Equalists do not.

They also saw him bend up a giant water spout. But that's probably not important; it's not like they're solidly set against benders or anything like that...

[Sith_Happens]

Have we watched the same show? It was stated out right that Amon's motives were 100% ulterior.

I watched the finale twice, in fact, and the closest thing it ever gives to a motive is that he was angry with his father. That is approximately not helpful at all for determining whether he actually believed in his own cause (a question that I rather would have liked answered, preferably in the affirmative).

[John Cribati]

I watched the finale twice, in fact, and the closest thing it ever gives to a motive is that he was angry with his father. That is approximately not helpful at all for determining whether he actually believed in his own cause (a question that I rather would have liked answered, preferably in the affirmative).

I'm pretty sure "maybe" is an answer.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm pretty sure "maybe" is an answer.

Technically. My longshot hope is that they figure out a way to tie some of those loose ends into Book 2.

>>BEGIN WILD MASS GUESSING

Remember when Amon shows off his "power" for the first time and says that the spirits gave it to him? Just because his bending-block turned out to be a bloodbending technique doesn't mean a spirit didn't teach it to him. And guess what Book 2 is primarily about?

Would sure be interesting to find out there's a spirit who wants to eradicate bending, and why. You could almost make an entire season's worth of plot out of that.

>>END WILD MASS GUESSING

[Morty]

I have absolutely zero concerns that this is going to happen. The franchise has consistently been much more complex and mature about its themes than that (yes, even Korra season one; just because Amon's abilities were a sham doesn't mean that he had ulterior motives or that the Equalist movement itself didn't have a point), and I see no reason for that to stop now.

That's not really true. The Equalists were turned into a complete joke in Season One. Their leader was a fraud, the only one of them who was given an actual motive was Hiroshi Sato - and his reason was completely uninspired - so they came off as crazy hate-mongers, and they were completely unmentioned after Amon's defeat, which makes it look like they just quietly went home afterwards. Amon himself might have been a legitimate believer in the cause, or just a bloodbender with daddy issues - we don't know, and that's terrible. The best case scenario is that he really believed in the Equalist ideals, hating himself for what he was. The worst case scenario is that the whole movement was just a dupe for another power-hungry bender. But, again, we might as well flip a coin about what's true here, because Amon's motives were completely unexplored and the Equalists were forgotten as soon as he was out of the picture.

When it comes down to it, The Last Airbender took an extremely simple and classic story premise and handled it in a very skilful, mature way. Legend of Korra took a more nuanced, sophisticated premise and planted its face in the mud trying to execute it.

[John Cribati]

Remember when Amon shows off his "power" for the first time and says that the spirits gave it to him? Just because his bending-block turned out to be a bloodbending technique doesn't mean a spirit didn't teach it to him. And guess what Book 2 is primarily about?

Would sure be interesting to find out there's a spirit who wants to eradicate bending, and why. You could almost make an entire season's worth of plot out of that.


Actually, they interviewed Mike and Bryan the other day. Amon was just applying the basic concept of waterbending healing (which works by affecting the flow of Chi through various points on the body) in reverse to perform a more devastating chi-blocking attack, but from the inside. That's why katara says the connection was "severed."

[MLai]

gunpowder against a firebender is a liability, against a water bender is easily dowsed, and earth benders can readily make themselves bullet proof.
i wouldn't see the technology catching on until something akin to the repeating rifle with its self contained cartridge was developed.
in our history that was ~1890. the avatar verse seems to be in the equivalent of the industrial revolution (1820-1840), so guns not being a significant force in the universe yet isn't that far flung.
LoK takes place around the equivalent of our 1903, when the Wright flyer biplane made successful flights.
The weaknesses of gunpowder that you listed, would be just as valid when applied against taser gloves/batons.
But ofc, titanium mechas trump them all!

[Cat Dungeon]

the march of technology is a theme of the series, spirits are freaking out in the trailer, avatar's job is maintaining the balance.

That still seems like a leap to this conclusion. Is there any evidence that the spirits would be displeased with mankind advancing their knowledge of machinery?

[endoperez]

LoK takes place around the equivalent of our 1903, when the Wright flyer biplane made successful flights.
The weaknesses of gunpowder that you listed, would be just as valid when applied against taser gloves/batons.
But ofc, titanium mechas trump them all!

By your logic, A:TLA technology is at the leve of 18th century technology since they had just invented airships/dirigibles. That means that they either advanced about 200 years' worth of technology in decades, or that the creators are taking whatever elements they like instead of blindly following real-world technological prowess. I bet on the latter since they had giant robots.

They are likely to have things that are recognizable to modern viewers, but look old and outdated, regardless of when those inventions were actually made. Old-looking cars, old-looking radios, old-looking airplanes, old-looking warships...

[thubby]

LoK takes place around the equivalent of our 1903, when the Wright flyer biplane made successful flights.
The weaknesses of gunpowder that you listed, would be just as valid when applied against taser gloves/batons.
But ofc, titanium mechas trump them all!
they're actually made of platinum *SMH@LoK*
tasers have novelty. they do things that basically no one else can.


That still seems like a leap to this conclusion. Is there any evidence that the spirits would be displeased with mankind advancing their knowledge of machinery?

advanced tech and knowledge specifically? no. the environmental ravaging that goes with it? yes. *points to super panda monster*
I'LL admit it's a bit of a leap, but it's not a blind one.

[Cat Dungeon]

advanced tech and knowledge specifically? no. the environmental ravaging that goes with it? yes. *points to super panda monster*
I'LL admit it's a bit of a leap, but it's not a blind one.

I don't know. I think as long as there are benders spirituality is still something that wouldn't be neglected (not including tyrannical Fire Nation-esque civilizations).

Anyway, I just hope Iroh is a main character and gets like a million girlfriends.

[Dragonus45]

they're actually made of platinum *SMH@LoK*
tasers have novelty. they do things that basically no one else can.



advanced tech and knowledge specifically? no. the environmental ravaging that goes with it? yes. *points to super panda monster*
I'LL admit it's a bit of a leap, but it's not a blind one.

Where is the ravaging, benders look to be able to do a lot of things in ways that cause almost no damage to the environment. See lightning bending to create power, meaning very little damage from mining for coal.

[thubby]

Where is the ravaging, benders look to be able to do a lot of things in ways that cause almost no damage to the environment. See lightning bending to create power, meaning very little damage from mining for coal.

setting aside that the city itself is largely cleared land. there is what appears to be an entire district dedicated to smokestack bearing factories in addition to the foundries that must exist for there to be this much iron around. to say nothing of the mining facilities that feed it all

this is a world in which clear-cutting 1 hunk of forest caused a rampaging panda ghost monster and mucking up 1 coy pond killed an entire army.

[Flickerdart]

Why do I suspect that one random guy that pops up with the spirits will turn out to be the *first* avatar?
We'll get flashbacks (http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/07/walking-dead-legend-korra-steven-yeun/), at the very least.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Good trailer. Gave me a mild case of the chills.

[Zevox]

Put me in the "cautiously optimistic" column. The trailer is good, and makes me very curious what exactly the plot will be to go with all that; but yeah, season 1 had more than its fair share of problems and missed opportunities, and the fact that this "season" is still only going to be half a season in length doesn't reassure me that the problem of things ending up feeling rushed will go away. Still, I did enjoy the first season to an extent, and I very much so want it to succeed, even if it doesn't fully recapture the greatness of its predecessor show, so I'll certainly be watching it.

[Deathkeeper]

Excited. I had a few gripes with season one, mostly regarding the Spontaneous Army Generation the finale had, but I am definitely going to continue to give Korra a chance.

[Pokonic]

I doubt that the issue of technology progressing affecting the spirit world will be presented as black and white, not only because the writers have a decent track record with shades of grey in the overall conflicts, but because the original series had at least one really nasty spirit in the form of Koh, and it's not like Mr. Owl Librarian (who even showed up looming over one of Tenzin's kids in the trailer, at that) was a saint either.

Chance's are, the industrialization might either be hurting some of the mildly nice one's (pollution caused by increased water traffic and factories is probably not exactly helping the water spirits, for instance) or even letting some of the nastier one's get more powerful.

[Morty]

[...] and the fact that this "season" is still only going to be half a season in length [...]

What, really. This is... pretty bad news. It makes a repeat of what happened in Season One more likely.

[Mutant Sheep]

Trailer nice and pretty, plenty of Tenzins family. I would say "WTF AMON LIVES!!!eleven!1!", but I think ex-councilor guy (I forgot the dude-who-I-liked's name) going on his own bending adventure has POTENTIAL.:smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

What, really. This is... pretty bad news. It makes a repeat of what happened in Season One more likely.
It's been known for a long time. Books one and two are technically considered season 1, with the two adding up to 26 episodes (12 for book one, 14 for book 2). Books three and four will be much the same, at 13 episodes each.

[Morty]

I see. Well, it's troubling. It seems that they're trying for some major, far reaching plot again, and we saw how trying to squeeze one into 12 episodes worked out for them last time.

[Scowling Dragon]

Why. Its either the network actively wants to die and hates itself, or the creators think they can accomplish too much in too little.

[HamHam]

In principle it's not a problem, plenty of OVAs have done more with less. But Korra Season I pretty much showed that the creators don't know how to do that. Although it's not like pacing is even the biggest problem with Korra, what with the terrible characters, stupid plot, and lame action.

[Scowling Dragon]

In principle it's not a problem, plenty of OVAs have done more with less. But Korra Season I pretty much showed that the creators don't know how to do that. Although it's not like pacing is even the biggest problem with Korra, what with the terrible characters, stupid plot, and lame action.

Well yes. Its true you can do much with little, but there are certain things that need more time to be bigger.

And I would just slightly (Barely and half heartedly) argue that maybe the pacing was more to blame for the latter.

Though I hated Korra.

[Morty]

It's certainly possible to make a good, entertaining mini-series. The problem is that you need to tailor your plot to the length. In Book One, it was painfully apparent that the plot the writers had planned simply did not fit the confines of twelve episodes - it was too far-reaching and too complex, with too many characters and too much backstory. The trailer hints that Book Two will also have a serious and deep plot, with adventures in the spirit world, some suspiciously Equalist-looking people on bi-planes and the first Avatar showing up. And I worry that fourteen episodes will simply fail to do it justice, just like twelve episodes did with the Equalist plot.

[Rosstin]

Wow, you guys are grouchy!

I really enjoyed Season 1, it had a cool artstyle, fun characters, and I liked the technology presented. It had a good internal logic to it. It scared the hell out of me at times, the idea of losing your bending was a pretty terrifying concept if you think about it.

Compare it to other American cartoons. We're really lucky to have it.

To be clear, I respect y'alls opinion, I can understand why you might compare Korra unfavorably to Airbender. They're exceedingly different from eachother. Even I was shocked when I saw the world of Korra and how much it had changed.

I'm interested in any recommendations you might have on cartoons like this that you think are better; I'm always looking for good cartoons.

[Terraoblivion]

The pacing issues with the first season weren't due to trying to cram too much stuff into twelve episodes, it was due to the creators clearly not knowing how to make efficient use of that little time. Looking at works that were twelve episodes long, there are heavy weights like Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Red Data Girl that managed it perfectly and Girls und Panzer showed you can make a massive cast work in just twelve episodes.

Also, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that people are overstating the problems of the first season. I don't mean that they weren't there, I can largely agree with most of the problems, I just don't think they're truly as severe as most people think. Part of it was hype and part of it was the show going visibly downhill as time passed, making all the problems feel more apparent than if it had been a more consistent show.

So as long as the creators know how to pace themselves properly, don't let themselves get pulled down by the effects of the bad stuff of the first season and not try to force any stupid romantic triangles, I imagine that they can pull something quite good off with the second season. Of course, the big question is the pacing since so far we haven't seen any proof that they know how to work with a smaller number of episodes like this. That and romantic triangles, which they clearly know absolutely nothing about and which seems pretty irrelevant to the plot anyway.

[HamHam]

Wow, you guys are grouchy!

I really enjoyed Season 1, it had a cool artstyle, fun characters, and I liked the technology presented. It had a good internal logic to it. It scared the hell out of me at times, the idea of losing your bending was a pretty terrifying concept if you think about it.

Compare it to other American cartoons. We're really lucky to have it.

To be clear, I respect y'alls opinion, I can understand why you might compare Korra unfavorably to Airbender. They're exceedingly different from eachother. Even I was shocked when I saw the world of Korra and how much it had changed.

I'm interested in any recommendations you might have on cartoons like this that you think are better; I'm always looking for good cartoons.

As much as I hate the timeskip, Young Justice was better.
Clone Wars
Generator Rex
Brave and the Bold
Avengers Earth's Mightiest Heros
Spectacular Spiderman
Wolverine and the X-men
Even Ben 10 is at least serviceable even if it's not the greatest thing in the world.

And that's just stuff from around the same time.


Also, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that people are overstating the problems of the first season. I don't mean that they weren't there, I can largely agree with most of the problems, I just don't think they're truly as severe as most people think. Part of it was hype and part of it was the show going visibly downhill as time passed, making it all the problems feel more apparent than if it had been a more consistent show.

Having an uninteresting or unlikable cast and a plot that doesn't survive the barest of scrutiny are pretty major problems.

You can get away with one of those, like Young Justice has, post timeskip, a plot that is almost as dumb, but at least the characters are interesting (even the ones I hate).

[Morty]

To be clear, I respect y'alls opinion, I can understand why you might compare Korra unfavorably to Airbender. They're exceedingly different from eachother. Even I was shocked when I saw the world of Korra and how much it had changed.

Again, it's not about how it compares to The Last Airbender. The first season of LoK is hobbled by its own problems.


Part of it was hype and part of it was the show going visibly downhill as time passed, making it all the problems feel more apparent than if it had been a more consistent show.

The latter is definitely true. The first half of the season was excellent, but the quality visibly decreased from episode 7 onwards. I was reluctant to admit it at the time, because I was so caught up in the hype, but looking back, it's quite apparent.

[Dienekes]

Hmm let's hope it's better than season 1.

12 episodes is more than enough time to make a complicated story with multiple characters, motivations, intrigue, backstory, and whatnot. You just can't waste 3 episodes on learning how to play a (boring) game, and revealing the same surprises repeatedly.

Honestly if you look at Korra season 1, and actually think of the plot and character development points you could probably get it down to a short number just fine and keep a steady pace. Now, you don't have to do it that way. Hell, a great deal of the best Avatar stories are basically filler (Sokka's Master being a personal favorite), but you can't be wishy washy about it. Either plan to make a tight paced story or a sprawling epic. Both are just fine and can make great stories.

Now, I can forgive many of the pacing issues of Korra if it was done better. But Bender-Boxing or whatever it was, was a boring waste of time. Mako the character was a boring waste of time. And despite the amount of time available to make the story work the writers ended up just flinging the set pieces into place in the exact way that AtLA didn't (the capture of Tenzin and his family being foremost in my mind). This leaves the show as a mess. Though not a non-recoverable one. Scrapping the game, or at least only briefly touching on it frees up a lot of time. And holding the end objective in mind the whole time to keep the story contained solves the other issue.

We are still stuck with Mako though. No idea how to save that.

[Scowling Dragon]

I disagree. That bending sport was some of the most boring stuff I had saw ever.

Also I would say excellent setup.

[HamHam]

The latter is definitely true. The first half of the season was excellent, but the quality visibly decreased from episode 7 onwards.

It really wasn't. Pretty much the very first scene of baby Korra is a huge red flag that is not immediately fatal but requires work to refine that they never did. Episode 4 is probably the first major plot hole and then by Episode 6 you realize the plot is unworkable.

[Scowling Dragon]

I will say:

The Biggest issue of Legend of Korra (For me) was Korra.

[Morty]

It really wasn't. Pretty much the very first scene of baby Korra is a huge red flag that is not immediately fatal but requires work to refine that they never did. Episode 4 is probably the first major plot hole and then by Episode 6 you realize the plot is unworkable.

So you didn't experience a drop in quality after episode 6?

[HamHam]

So you didn't experience a drop in quality after episode 6?

Quality of what?

[Ramza00]

It really wasn't. Pretty much the very first scene of baby Korra is a huge red flag that is not immediately fatal but requires work to refine that they never did. Episode 4 is probably the first major plot hole and then by Episode 6 you realize the plot is unworkable.
Can you please identify the plot holes in spoiler blocks?

I remember many problems of Korra, but overall I think we are being nitpicky and I love it. I can't remember episode numbers though.

[Morty]

Quality of what?

I found the pacing of the plot to get noticeably worse from episode 7 onwards. Since your opinion of the first half is worse than mine, I'm curious if you did too.

[HamHam]

Can you please identify the plot holes in spoiler blocks?

I remember many problems of Korra, but overall I think we are being nitpicky and I love it. I can't remember episode numbers though.

Amon letting Korra live / keep her bending is stupid if his motives are actually what he says they are. It's downright incomprehensible given his real motives.

Republic city is somehow the underdog in a fight with a bunch of disgruntled citizens.

Huge underground factories, an entire aerial armada superior to that of the police, armies of robots, and all kinds of other stuff all built in secret... somehow... with no one noticing all the raw materials and labor just disappearing.

The police are completely incompetent. And yet we are supposed to like Lin... I guess? Forget her resigning, every single person assigned to the stadium that night should have been fired for gross incompetence.

Mako hooks up with Korra and his actual girlfriend is never mentioned again.


I found the pacing of the plot to get noticeably worse from episode 7 onwards. Since your opinion of the first half is worse than mine, I'm curious if you did too.

Not really. There are some pacing issues that make the characters rather forced and stilted, but the plot makes no sense because it makes no sense.

[Cat Dungeon]

So am I the only one that hopes Meelo gets some decent screen time. I love that kid. He's hilarious!:smallbiggrin: He's like Jar Jar except actually entertaining.

[Ramza00]

Amon letting Korra live / keep her bending is stupid if his motives are actually what he says they are. It's downright incomprehensible given his real motives.

Amon was not ready to make Korra a martyr. He defeated her in the dead of night with no one watching prior to him taking republic city. Defeating her and removing her bending would start the war way too early.

His plan was to defeat her in the spotlight and humiliate her.

Near the end of the series though when he fights her again and uses bloodbending to its full effect many things have changed.

The war has already started, the republic nation has sent its fleet you can't bide your time anymore
Amon has his army, he doesn't have to wait for his mech army to be built, or using propaganda to get new recruits
The Avatar knows his secret, he may lose everything if the avatar gets away and tell his secret
Thus he goes for the kill, and uses bloodbending directly on her so she has no chance of escape, similar to how an adventuring party uses dimension anchor on their prey for the party is afraid the prey may escape.


The rest of your points are valid (though you exagerated the police point, heads need to roll but losing your entire police force doesn't make the situation better.)

[BRC]

The reason the first half of LoK seems better is that, at that point, there was still a lot of great set-up in the works that got thrown out the window at the end.
The early episodes may have been a lot of dithering around with love triangles and pro-bending, but at that time the Equalists represented a subversive element drawing it's power from real social issues. They looked to be the ideal foe to force character development out of the thuggish Korra.

In the second half of the season, the Equalists became Fire Nation 2.0. Overwhelmingly powerful and unquestionably evil. Another set of faces for Korra to punch. The Love Triangle came back in the stupidest way possible, the two most likable members of the central cast (Asami and Bolin) got sidelined. Korra uses her shiny new Airbender training to masterfully dodge any character growth, allowing her to start the series as a self-entitled thug, and end the series as a self-entitled thug who can airbend and has a boyfriend.

So while more interesting stuff was happening in the second half, the first half was more enjoyable because the possibility of REALLY GREAT stuff happening was still there.

[HamHam]

Amon was not ready to make Korra a martyr. He defeated her in the dead of night with no one watching prior to him taking republic city. Defeating her and removing her bending would start the war way too early.

His plan was to defeat her in the spotlight and humiliate her.

Near the end of the series though when he fights her again and uses bloodbending to its full effect many things have changed.

The war has already started, the republic nation has sent its fleet you can't bide your time anymore
Amon has his army, he doesn't have to wait for his mech army to be built, or using propaganda to get new recruits
The Avatar knows his secret, he may lose everything if the avatar gets away and tell his secret
Thus he goes for the kill, and uses bloodbending directly on her so she has no chance of escape, similar to how an adventuring party uses dimension anchor on their prey for the party is afraid the prey may escape.


The rest of your points are valid (though you exagerated the police point, heads need to roll but losing your entire police force doesn't make the situation better.)

Again, that's only a valid argument if he actually believes in his own cause. He doesn't. He just wants revenge.

And making her a martyr has no impact. It's not going to make them find his hidden factories faster. His plans to take over the city do not rely on public support, so it doesn't matter. They all come down to an invincible army of robots and air ships.

[Brass_Robo]

Again, that's only a valid argument if he actually believes in his own cause. He doesn't. He just wants revenge.

And making her a martyr has no impact. It's not going to make them find his hidden factories faster. His plans to take over the city do not rely on public support, so it doesn't matter. They all come down to an invincible army of robots and air ships.

I always thought that on some level Amon did believe in his cause. Yeah he's driven by revenge and most of what he says to the Equalists is a lie, but he may really think he's doing a good thing by getting rid of the bending. And even if his ultimate plan is to attack the city directly, public perception matters. Creating a martyr for your enemies is never a good thing. It might motivate the police to turn the entire city upside down searching for him. It might turn people sympathetic to his cause away from him. Hell it might even get some of the Equalists to turn against him.

Amon's plans start out small. He needs a lot of people so he starts by going after actual criminals and gangsters. Even people who are against him can agree taking out the triads is a good thing. Then he makes a big attack against the Pro Benders. This turns a lot of people against him, but it causes the police to overreact and so supporter for him starts building. He only launches a full on attack when the situation in the city has already completely deteriorated. Depowering Korra moves his plans to far along before he's ready. It would cause the people to rally against him, which would make taking and keeping the city that much harder.

Personally I liked the first season. It was horribly rushed, but that was the only real problem I had with it. The setting was interesting. The characters weren't completely likable and the romance was a train wreck, but that was what made it so interesting. Korra is a violent Berserker who spent her whole life training in the South Pole to be the world's greatest bender. Mako is an orphan turned pro athlete who used to be a mob enforcer. Their relationship was always going to be horribly dysfunctional. Seeing what new way the characters could make a mess of things is what kept me watching.

Also the animation was good, the fights were great and the spirits look awesome.

[Ramza00]

Also the animation was good, the fights were great and the spirits look awesome.
Don't forget the excellent music :smallwink:

[MLai]

Also the animation was good, the fights were great and the spirits look awesome.
I disagree with you (this is the first sentence you must always begin with, in this forum).
I think the animation was great, the fights were awesome, and the spirits look good.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I stopped watching a couple minutes into the episode where they started underground with the hobo, about at the point where Mako and Korra started talking to each other. The love triangle was just way too incredibly awkward and serious for me to handle.

[MLai]

I stopped watching a couple minutes into the episode where they started underground with the hobo, about at the point where Mako and Korra started talking to each other. The love triangle was just way too incredibly awkward and serious for me to handle.
I can't think of a single instance where these 2 ATLA writers ever demonstrated that they know how to write romance.
Oh wait no. Sokka + Suki. That was decent. It's a typical shonen romance (boy meets action girl, boy learns not to be sexist, boy respects and loves action girl), but at least it wasn't botched.

The rest:
(1) Sokka + Yue is a plot point. I don't fault them for that.
(2) Zutara is an emergent ship. I fault them for not recognizing it during scripting.
(3) Aang + Katara is the ickiest thing I've ever seen.
(4) Mako + Korra is... Jerry Springer quality romance.

[John Cribati]

(3) Aang + Katara is the ickiest thing I've ever seen.

I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

[Spacewolf]

Again, that's only a valid argument if he actually believes in his own cause. He doesn't. He just wants revenge.

And making her a martyr has no impact. It's not going to make them find his hidden factories faster. His plans to take over the city do not rely on public support, so it doesn't matter. They all come down to an invincible army of robots and air ships.

When is it stated Amon never believed in his cause, hell his brother outright states he thinks Amon does believe that benders are evil.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

I wouldn't call it icky, but the only reason it wasn't outright terrible is because the writers decided to not do a lot with it, and focus on other things.

[Zevox]

As much as I hate the timeskip, Young Justice was better.
Seconded. Though be prepared to be disappointed when you get to the end of the second season, see the setup for the third, and then realize that it will never exist.

[MLai]

I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.
(1) How old is Aang? In terms of the art style, he looks 12. In terms of characterization, he also seems to be 12.

(2) He's based on Tibetan monks. His characterization is also consistent with being a monk. Regardless whether airbender "monks" can have intimate relations on their world, in this world I'm looking at a 12-yr-old boy monk. This is worse the more familiar you are with the Asian monk archetype in your culture.

(3) Regardless whether or not Aang is (or seems very much like) a 12-yr-old monk, he had zero chemistry of that sort with Katara. Sisterly/ motherly/ friendly relationship + boy crush, yes. Actual relationship resulting in later marriage + kids, wtf?

(4) There was great relationship potential with Zuko + Katara, both in terms of demonstrable character chemistry, and in terms of narrative potential. The show couldn't help displaying it even though it had never originally occurred to the writers. It was an emergent phenomenon due to the strength of its potential, which was the best part because it's like actual love when characters grow and become fully realized that they take on a life of their own.
The two writers not having recognized this during the production stages, or recognizing it but ignoring it and forcing through the Aang+Katara relationship... signals to me one of the greatest arguments in favor of Death Of Author that I've recently come across.

[Sith_Happens]

Snip

People be like

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/avatar_shipping_war.jpg

Think I'll just

http://www.thecrosbypress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Popcorn-02-Stephen-Colbert.gif

[Scowling Dragon]

Too be honest I liked neither pairings.

Like I say: A Single touching moment does not a pairing make.

[Carry2]

There was great relationship potential with Zuko + Katara, both in terms of demonstrable character chemistry, and in terms of narrative potential. The show couldn't help displaying it even though it had never originally occurred to the writers…
...The two writers not having recognized this during the production stages, or recognizing it but ignoring it and forcing through the Aang+Katara relationship... signals to me one of the greatest arguments in favor of Death Of Author that I've recently come across.
I didn't actively mind Kataang, but I gotta say Zutara does strike me as more interesting.

Also, Korra is dangerously close to a Mary Sue.

[Scowling Dragon]

I completely disagree. Katara is a motherly figure throughout the show. Kinda a "Duh" moment considering she lost hers.

She was still shown to have violent, angry, and selfish streaks.

She is not a Mary sue by a longshot.

Edit:

Oh KORRA. One could argue so.

[thubby]

Also, Korra is dangerously close to a Mary Sue.

no, she's not at all. her only true strength is her prowess in physical combat.

she's rash, impulsive, incredibly un-clever and totally lacking in diplomacy. her attempts to solve things directly gets her in trouble repeatedly and she even gets called on it by those around her.

[Scowling Dragon]

no, she's not at all. her only true strength is her prowess in physical combat.

she's rash, impulsive, incredibly un-clever and totally lacking in diplomacy. her attempts to solve things directly gets her in trouble repeatedly and she even gets called on it by those around her.

Yet she learns nothing and gets everything handed to her on a silver platter to her at the end.

[thubby]

Yet she learns nothing and gets everything handed to her on a silver platter to her at the end.

except she does learn and nearly dies getting there.

[Carry2]

Yet she learns nothing and gets everything handed to her on a silver platter to her at the end.
This. So much this. The closest she gets to character development (airbending) is literally foisted upon her by accident.


Y'know, the more I think about it, the less Kataang makes sense to me. That scene after Zuko's battle with Azula? Y'know, where he's all prone and needy and noble and stuff and Kat's all teary and grateful and sympathetic and stuff? C'mon! That is not subtext! That is text!

*nnghh* …feel …opinions …suddenly …altering!

.

[thubby]

the idea that you're going to divine the nature of a long term relationship from teenagers is fairly silly.

[Scowling Dragon]

the idea that you're going to divine the nature of a long term relationship from teenagers is fairly silly.

So much this.

"They shared two scenes together! IT MUST BE TWU LV"

[Sith_Happens]

the idea that you're going to divine the nature of a long term relationship from teenagers is fairly silly.

Which relates to the reason that I'm actually quite happy with the Korra/Mako hookup: It's the stereotypical leads-fall-for-each-other-at-the-end-because relationship in every possible way... Except this time it's not the end, it's the one-quarter mark. Mike and Bryan now have 40 episodes to play havoc on one of the most omnipresent tropes of all time, and you just know they're going to, because they're trolls like that.

[dehro]

I'd like to know how you came to that conclusion.

Oogie!!:smallbiggrin:

[MLai]

Which relates to the reason that I'm actually quite happy with the Korra/Mako hookup: It's the stereotypical leads-fall-for-each-other-at-the-end-because relationship in every possible way... Except this time it's not the end, it's the one-quarter mark. Mike and Bryan now have 40 episodes to play havoc on one of the most omnipresent tropes of all time, and you just know they're going to, because they're trolls like that.
This... actually makes sense.
It does make you anticipate their "romance" with a perverse glee, doesn't it...? :smallamused:

[Sith_Happens]

This... actually makes sense.
It does make you anticipate their "romance" with a perverse glee, doesn't it...? :smallamused:

Pretty much, although for me this is entirely about the abstract of the tropes involved rather than my having any particular problem with Korra x Mako specifically (frankly it didn't strike me any differently than the obligatory romance in almost any action flick, for better or worse).

[Morty]

All the plots in Season One were wrapped up far too neatly for me to really think of Season Two as its continuation. While I would love Book Two to pick up some of the dangling threads from Book One, fourteen episodes mean they're sort of pressed for time. And I would have more faith in the writers' ability to make Korra and Mako's romance into anything interesting if it weren't for what they did to it in Season One.

[Flickerdart]

At this point I'm just hoping most of the season is about Wan and the spirit world (and of course flashbacks to Aang's time because adult Toph kicks ass). I quite dig the different art style they have for it now, and it means we won't have to see a lot of Mako.

Also, something I found really odd in the trailer: we see Korra, a Water Tribe waterbender, being swept away helplessly by a current. Shouldn't she know how to deal with that sort of thing?

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, something I found really odd in the trailer: we see Korra, a Water Tribe waterbender, being swept away helplessly by a current. Shouldn't she know how to deal with that sort of thing?

Maybe it's a spirit world current?

[AdmiralCheez]

It would make sense if it were a spirit world river, since bending doesn't work there. Alternatively, a physical-world current could just be too strong for her to properly bend it.

[Fjolnir]

is there a flow of water that the avatar can't freeze, steam, cut with wind, or dam in the material world?

[Ramza00]

Are we going to have an awesome villain voice actor like we did with the previous big bads; Fire Lord Ozai (Mark Hamill) and Amon (Steve Blum).

[The Rose Dragon]

How dare you leave Grey DeLisle out of that list? :smalltongue:

[Zeful]

(1) How old is Aang? In terms of the art style, he looks 12. In terms of characterization, he also seems to be 12.And? Katara's 14, and Zuko's 16.


(2) He's based on Tibetan monks. His characterization is also consistent with being a monk. Regardless whether airbender "monks" can have intimate relations on their world, in this world I'm looking at a 12-yr-old boy monk. This is worse the more familiar you are with the Asian monk archetype in your culture.Given that they were a nation onto themselves with their own inheritable traits... This argumnt is entirely invalid.


(3) Regardless whether or not Aang is (or seems very much like) a 12-yr-old monk, he had zero chemistry of that sort with Katara. Sisterly/ motherly/ friendly relationship + boy crush, yes. Actual relationship resulting in later marriage + kids, wtf?You seemed to have missed... well most of Katara and Aang's interactions in book 2.


(4) There was great relationship potential with Zuko + Katara, both in terms of demonstrable character chemistry, and in terms of narrative potential. The show couldn't help displaying it even though it had never originally occurred to the writers. It was an emergent phenomenon due to the strength of its potential, which was the best part because it's like actual love when characters grow and become fully realized that they take on a life of their own.And you seemed to have missed... all of Katara and Zuko's interactions in books 1 and 3. Katara got nothing from Zuko. And the writers actually showed characters who were openly sexually attracted to each other before, so you can't make the argument that they couldn't show it because it's a kids show.


The two writers not having recognized this during the production stages, or recognizing it but ignoring it and forcing through the Aang+Katara relationship... signals to me one of the greatest arguments in favor of Death Of Author that I've recently come across.
There is not a scene, a moment, or a line of dialog that showed Katara had any chemistry or romantic affection towards Zuko. Every scene that you will cite in any potential response to this post will be at best wishful thinking on the part of Zutara fangirls. Jet had better chemistry with Katara in one episode than Zuko got in three seasons.

[John Cribati]

@MLai's Anti-Kataang thing: you seem to be under the impression that Aang and Katara got married on that balcony. What it really was was Kyra saying “I'll give this relationship a shot.” And guess why? It worked! And you know what else? They didn't have kids until at least TEN years after the end of the series, if we assume Kya is 60, even though her grey hair is the only “indication” that she’s significantly older than Bumi or Tenzin. You know what happens when people get older? THEY GROW. I mean, even at the start of the series, Aang was a much more mature character than Zuko was, and while they both grew throughout the thrrr seasons, I say that Aang is the more mature of the two at the end. Imagine another ten to fifteen years of doing his job and how that would affect his character. You can’t say that the relationship sucks when we've literally only seen the foundation of the relationship over the course of three seasons.

[Dienekes]

My God who cares which character another character will end up screwing? Just get back to the interesting stuff, like fighting a war with the fire nation.

Avatar was at it's best doing 2 things. Random world building side stories and showing the terror, losses, and evil of the war with the Fire Nation while still making it palatable for children.

Korra was at its best in that 30 second scene when Tarlock commits suicide.

I just don't understand why people get so focused on a subject that was (thankfully) never the actual focus of the show.

[Ramza00]

I agree with you Dienekes

But many people bonded with the characters in the Last Airbender, thus may fans shipp said characters for they bonded with them and they want said characters to be happy.

Shipping though in my opinion is not awesome, you do not need to make everyone have an intimate relationship to make everyone happy. I think the show proved that when everyone was happy merely being everyone's friend or rival.

This on the other hand is awesome
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31500000/-Old-Friends-avatar-the-legend-of-korra-31596089-893-587.jpg

[Rosstin]

I concur that I had a hard time really imagining Katara/Aang going anywhere, mainly that I had a difficult time imagining Katara falling for Aang.

OTOH, I can definitely see the argument that X years down the line something happened between them.

I mean, he was basically the savior of the world... on top of that, he's funny, he's smart, he's an all-around awesome guy. A little immature, but you can see him growing out of that. I don't see how you could say no to someone like that.

[John Cribati]

I concur that I had a hard time really imagining Katara/Aang going anywhere, mainly that I had a difficult time imagining Katara falling for Aang.

OTOH, I can definitely see the argument that X years down the line something happened between them.

I mean, he was basically the savior of the world... on top of that, he's funny, he's smart, he's an all-around awesome guy. A little immature, but you can see him growing out of that. I don't see how you could say no to someone like that.

Pretty much this. They obviously had a very deep friendship. Aang says he wants to be more than friends. Katara says she has to think about it. She thinks about it, settles on trying it out.

Though to be fair, she has shown some signs of attraction to him throughout the season. And she’s awfully comfortable being around him in a state of minimal dress…

[Ravian]

God never realized everyone had so many problems with Legend of Korra...

Yes I concede that it felt rushed, however that can probably be blamed on the network giving the writers half a season to tell a story, with the distinct possibility it won't even get a sequel, when their last one was a three season epic.

Probending was stretched out a little too much for time that could have been used for more of the real plot, but I did enjoy the matches.

Ammon was a possibly the most tragic villain Avatar has had (Zuko would contest that if not for the fact that he started off in Anti-villain territory, bounced around on the Anti-hero line for book 2 and half of book 3 before going all the way into hero by the end)
Meanwhile I never got the impression that Ammon didn't believe in his motives. What I saw in his backstory was a boy, twisted between his father's expectations and a legitimate empathy for his brother (one that he can't fully express), who grows to hate everything that he is. To that end he disowns himself and makes himself a new identity as the leader of a cause to rid the world of monsters like himself.
In a way he wasn't lying to his followers about his origin, bending took his family and his own identity, his face, from him. It's pretty deep compared to other villains you see in shows directed for kids.

[Hiro Protagonest]

God never realized everyone had so many problems with Legend of Korra...
Some people hate Harry Potter. Others hate Call of Duty. I hate Legend of Korra.

Yes I concede that it felt rushed, however that can probably be blamed on the network giving the writers half a season to tell a story, with the distinct possibility it won't even get a sequel, when their last one was a three season epic.

Probending was stretched out a little too much for time that could have been used for more of the real plot, but I did enjoy the matches.
This. This right here. They didn't have much time, and they wasted some of it. I actually didn't mind probending, I minded that it took up so much.

Ammon was a possibly the most tragic villain Avatar has had (Zuko would contest that if not for the fact that he started off in Anti-villain territory, bounced around on the Anti-hero line for book 2 and half of book 3 before going all the way into hero by the end)
That's not saying much, considering Ozai and Azula were just outright merciless with motivations of "world domination" and "become Fire Lord/make daddy proud", respectively, and Long Feng was an amateur puppetmaster.

Meanwhile I never got the impression that Ammon didn't believe in his motives. What I saw in his backstory was a boy, twisted between his father's expectations and a legitimate empathy for his brother (one that he can't fully express), who grows to hate everything that he is. To that end he disowns himself and makes himself a new identity as the leader of a cause to rid the world of monsters like himself.
In a way he wasn't lying to his followers about his origin, bending took his family and his own identity, his face, from him. It's pretty deep compared to other villains you see in shows directed for kids.

Except you drew your own conclusion based on a few lines from his brother. They don't show you this. They don't tell you this.

You also conveniently avoided completely ignored the romance issues.

[Ravian]

Except you drew your own conclusion based on a few lines from his brother. They don't show you this. They don't tell you this.

What about that whole flashback Taarloc gives about their history? We basically see one of the most screwed up families in the Avatar universe only rivaled by the Fire Nation royal family. The way I see it both brothers cared about each other, but Ammon was caught up with his father's expectations for him and tried to kill that emotion in him.


You also conveniently avoided completely ignored the romance issues.

Yeah I did. I generally ignore all romance sub-plots in shows that aren't focused on it. I know that they're going to be there, so I might as well not get in a huff about it and focus on the parts that are interesting. Only reaction the love triangle got out of me was a chance to yell "cat fight!" a couple times. Oh and a laughing fit from Bolin's "You're a bad idea!" line.

[HamHam]

Azula is way more tragic. Especially since it's increasingly apparent that she may have some kind of genetic condition.

"My own mother thought I was a monster...

She was right, of course, but it still hurt."

Azula was made into what she is long before she had any choice in the matter, and she never had any real chance to escape her fate. And she just can't understand why the world isn't like what she was taught it was.

[MLai]

@ Replies to above comments regarding Zutara ship:

I don't consider myself a shipper. I don't ship as you think of it. I'm not emotionally attached to the ATLA characters. There are some stories where I do get emotionally attached to characters, such as Secret Of NIMH, Dragon Warrior, Fate Stay Night (my personal faves, YMMV). ATLA, not in the slightest. I just like it because it's a good show with good magic kung fu.

The reason I "ship" Zutara is because in a detached objective sense i.e. as a hobby writer and hobby comic book writer/artist, I think it makes for better dramatic narrative, i.e. a better subplot which improves the entire story. I believe that there are multiple scenes in the epic which support the undercurrent of chemistry between Katara and Zuko, despite what the authors intended. I believe all the scenes in which the authors tried to sell us Katara + Aang failed miserably.

I do not like Zuko any more than I like Aang. I wouldn't care if either of them died at the end of ATLA (as long as it benefits the narrative), because I'm not emotionally attached. The authors simply failed to sell me Katara + Aang, while the story absolutely sold me on Katara + Zuko despite authorial intent.

I can't convince you that I have a good eye for character analysis by telling you so. I've given you my reasons for Zutara. If you disagree, and instead feels the authors sold you on Kataang, then so be it. AFAIC, I've helped show 1 person in this thread the light, at least partially. That's already more than I expected.

Edit: Corrected a hilarious typo.

[Scowling Dragon]

Also:

A Well made Pure evil villain is much better then a poorly made villain with potential depth.

Azula had subtleties, and complexities behind her every move. Amon is kinda blunt in comparison.

[HamHam]

Seriously, Azula steals every scene she is in.

Amon is just boring guy in mask who makes boring speeches.

[MLai]

Also:
A Well made Pure evil villain is much better then a poorly made villain with potential depth.
Azula had subtleties, and complexities behind her every move. Amon is kinda blunt in comparison.
Really? I thought Amon was pretty smart. Except at the end when he got handed the idiot evil overlord ball just so the show can wrap itself up with no loose ends.

Up until the "he's a bloodbender" reveal, I really liked Amon and couldn't find any faults with him as a character. I had really hoped that he was a bonafide Spiritbender. It would have bolstered his position as the anti-villain who is more "holy" than the thuggish incomplete Avatar.

If you're familiar with kung fu movies/stories, Avatarverse's spiritbending is analogous to orthodox shaolin kung fu, i.e. a discipline only truly good heroes should be able to use, i.e. light/holy magic. When a villain has access to such techniques, either he's the true good guy, or the unyielding paladin, or an one-winged angel.

[HamHam]

Amon didn't do anything particularly smart. Everyone else is just incompetent.

[Scowling Dragon]

Nope. He was just....Nothing. There was nothing too him. His intelligence is debatable, as are his plans.

And beyond that he is pretty bland.

[Dienekes]

@ Replies to above comments regarding Zutara ship:

I don't consider myself a shipper. I don't ship as you think of it. I'm not emotionally attached to the ATLA characters. There are some stories where I do get emotionally attached to characters, such as Secret Of NIMH, Dragon Warrior, Fate Stay Night (my personal faves, YMMV). ATLA, not in the slightest. I just like it because it's a good show with good magic kung fu.

The reason I "ship" Zutara is because in a detached objective sense i.e. as a hobby writer and hobby comic book writer/artist, I think it makes for better dramatic narrative, i.e. a better subplot which improves the entire story. I believe that there are multiple scenes in the epic which support the undercurrent of chemistry between Katara and Zuko, despite what the authors intended. I believe all the scenes in which the authors tried to sell us Katara + Aang failed miserably.

I do not like Zuko any more than I like Aang. I wouldn't care if either of them died at the end of ATLA (as long as it benefits the narrative), because I'm not emotionally attached. The authors simply failed to sell me Katara + Aang, while the story absolutely sold me on Katara + Zuko despite authorial intent.

I can't convince you that I have a good eye for character analysis by telling you so. I've given you my reasons for Zutara. If you disagree, and instead feels the authors sold you on Kataang, then so be it. AFAIC, I've helped show 1 person in this thread the light, at least partially. That's already more than I expected.

Edit: Corrected a hilarious typo.

I have to say, this is one of the strangest versions of perceived self superiority I have ever seen. Now I think I've made my opinion of romance fairly (and probably annoyingly) clear in these boards. And I have to ask you what are you talking about?

In what way is Zuko/Katara a better story? Please show me the light with your impressive hobby writing powers. The two share few single scenes together and each that they do involves Zuko utterly betraying Katara, destroying her family, and being a thorn in her side. Sure she for a time felt bad for him, but that does not a romance make. There is no indication of any attraction between the two. Throwing in Zuko/Katara into the narrative would have just clogged it up with more annoying love triangle nonsense, and waste more time in an already busy narrative. It would not have improved anything, just wasted more time.

[Ramza00]

Really? I thought Amon was pretty smart. Except at the end when he got handed the idiot evil overlord ball just so the show can wrap itself up with no loose ends.
Amon didn't show evidence of a high int or high wis score. (Didn't show evidence of a low score either)

He had the off the chart charisma score though, that with knowledge ranks in tell dramatic story

[t209]

Finally, it's about time. The delay was the reason for my current pony avatar. For season 1, it was meant to be mini series before the production. Second, this is a kids show and guns are not okay on american kids tv. I hope they didn't go all green on upcoming season and show the good side of technology.

[Scowling Dragon]

For season 1, it was meant to be mini series before the production.

Still rushed and sloppy.


Second, this is a kids show and guns are not okay on american kids tv.


Wrong. It hasn't been like this for a long time.

[MLai]

@ Amon's intelligence:
I can accept that his perceived intellectual power/threat doesn't come from himself, but rather from the social issues he represents or is using as his weapon. Therefore, his power comes from whether you as the viewer perceives his cause as valid.


I have to say, this is one of the strangest versions of perceived self superiority I have ever seen.
As for you, this is one of the most desperate grabs for a perceived insult that I've ever seen.
I framed everything as IMO, that I do no feel slighted if ppl disagree with Zutara, and that's honestly how I feel. I tell you I have self-taught experience in character analysis, but you're not required to believe me just on my say-so, and I do not expect you to. I say that I'm ok with you feeling the authors sold you on Kataang. What more do you bleeping want? I have no intention of answering your sarcastic questions.

[Scowling Dragon]

No man. That was pretty pompous of you.

"My Self Taught experience in character analysis"

All that really means is your opinion. Thats it.

Everybody has a "Self Taught Experience".

[MLai]

No man. That was pretty pompous of you.
"My Self Taught experience in character analysis"
All that really means is your opinion. Thats it.
Re-read my post, especially where I mentioned that I draw/write as a hobby. Tell me my reason for mentioning it.

Was it because I wanted to frame it as "I do this, therefore my opinion is more valid," or was the context more "I do this, therefore I'm not shipping this emotionally but rather I consider that objectively it's a better subplot/ chemistry"?

And then I mention it again in the last paragraph. Again, what was the context? Am I saying it because I want to assert superiority, or am I saying "I know I kind of tooted my own horn. Since that's not my purpose for mentioning it, let me say that I don't expect you to give me cred for simply saying that."

Ppl on the internet take offense way too quickly the second someone says anything about his/her own background, regardless of the context.

[Zeful]

The reason I "ship" Zutara is because in a detached objective sense i.e. as a hobby writer and hobby comic book writer/artist, I think it makes for better dramatic narrative, i.e. a better subplot which improves the entire story.
Okay, how? You've made a claim, I expect you to back it up.


I believe that there are multiple scenes in the epic which support the undercurrent of chemistry between Katara and Zuko, despite what the authors intended. I believe all the scenes in which the authors tried to sell us Katara + Aang failed miserably.Really? It couldn't have been in season 1 because Zuko and Katara only interact directly a few times, with Zuko either explicitly or implicitly threatening her or someone she cares about. In season 2 there's some less antagonistic interaction, but nothing that show Katara and Zuko have any chemistry, except that one scene in the crossroads of destiny episode. But that's the only time they interact with each other when there's nothing else to do except sit down doing nothing or talk things out. And Katara is far too social to not talk, hell she even talks a lot when trying to kill someone. And after that until pretty much the end of season 3 she's pretty much looking for an excuse to kill him until their field trip, after which she never interacts with him in private.


I do not like Zuko any more than I like Aang. I wouldn't care if either of them died at the end of ATLA (as long as it benefits the narrative), because I'm not emotionally attached. The authors simply failed to sell me Katara + Aang, while the story absolutely sold me on Katara + Zuko despite authorial intent.

I can't convince you that I have a good eye for character analysis by telling you so. I've given you my reasons for Zutara. If you disagree, and instead feels the authors sold you on Kataang, then so be it. AFAIC, I've helped show 1 person in this thread the light, at least partially. That's already more than I expected.
No, you haven't given any reasons, you've made assertions, but they are without any kind of external logic behind them. Moreover saying that your unreasoned opinion is "the light" is extremely self-presumptuous of you. Based on what you've actually posted for reasons, I can only conclude that you have some kind of investment in the concept of the brash, wounded, confused-but-honorable loner getting the kind, caring, mother-figure.

[Rosstin]

I can see why people ship Zuko/Katara... I'm glad it didn't happen, though. Too "Draco in Leather Pants"-ee for me. But I agree that there is probably some alternate universe where the two of them have a romantic relationship. If Zuko had acted differently around Katara, they could have become friends, and who knows. But he was way too messed up.

Zuko/Mai were HILARIOUS together. Such teenagers. That was a pretty believable relationship.

In any case, I think Zuko had years of character development ahead of him from the end of Avatar until he would be able to survive a stable long-term relationship. "Streetcar Named Desire"-style relationship, sure. He's sexy enough that he could probably tear a ragged streak of broken hearts through the World of Avatar.

Azula never seemed to me to be terribly complex. Yes, she has perfectionist tendency and probably some Freudian excuses. She's also just plain pure evil, in a hammy sort of Lady Macbeth crossed with an 80s-cartoon-villain way. She's a great character, I really like her as a villain. It's (mostly) easy to understand why she does what she does; she's very effective.

If anything, the thing that most bothered me about Azula was her descent into insanity. Somehow it felt wrong to me, I felt like Azula would be stronger and not crack in that bizarre way.

[t209]

I can see why people ship Zuko/Katara... I'm glad it didn't happen, though. Too "Draco in Leather Pants"-ee for me. But I agree that there is probably some alternate universe where the two of them have a romantic relationship. If Zuko had acted differently around Katara, they could have become friends, and who knows. But he was way too messed up.

Zuko/Mai were HILARIOUS together. Such teenagers. That was a pretty believable relationship.

In any case, I think Zuko had years of character development ahead of him from the end of Avatar until he would be able to survive a stable long-term relationship. "Streetcar Named Desire"-style relationship, sure. He's sexy enough that he could probably tear a ragged streak of broken hearts through the World of Avatar.

Azula never seemed to me to be terribly complex. Yes, she has perfectionist tendency and probably some Freudian excuses. She's also just plain pure evil, in a hammy sort of Lady Macbeth crossed with an 80s-cartoon-villain way. She's a great character, I really like her as a villain. It's (mostly) easy to understand why she does what she does; she's very effective.

If anything, the thing that most bothered me about Azula was her descent into insanity. Somehow it felt wrong to me, I felt like Azula would be stronger and not crack in that bizarre way.
I viewed Zuko as tragic characters, instead of villain. Azula kinda remind me of Tony Montanna (He also did became powerful but at the price of his sanity).

[dehro]

Azula is way more tragic. Especially since it's increasingly apparent that she may have some kind of genetic condition.


not quite sure how you get from bat**** crazy to genetic condition. not that it matters anyway.

as for kataang.. I found it a bit yucky for personal reasons (the show would have worked just as well without that particular subplot) but was perfectly happy with the reasons and the reasoning behind it. does a relationship between those two make sense? sure it does, especially so by the end of the show.. even more so a few years later when they have grown into it.

as for Korra and Mako.. it made sense but felt a bit tacked on, considering that there were already a number of sub-plots clashing for space and screentime.

firearms.. would they have made sense? probably, yes..in a blunderbuss steampunky kind of way. did I feel their absence take away from the show? no, not really.
personal tastes, of course.

[Morty]

What about that whole flashback Taarloc gives about their history? We basically see one of the most screwed up families in the Avatar universe only rivaled by the Fire Nation royal family. The way I see it both brothers cared about each other, but Ammon was caught up with his father's expectations for him and tried to kill that emotion in him.


That's just it, though. The only thing we've got in terms of Amon's goals, motivation and backstory is that exposition dump by Tarrlok. And Tarrlok last saw him when they were children, so he's just guessing. Which means we have no idea why Amon is doing what he's doing.

And I too absolutely loved Amon up until the finale. He oozed charisma, his speeches were intimidating, he gave the impression of a masterful planner and he was an incredibly dangerous non-bending fighter to boot. I really liked the way he danced around Lighting Bolt Zolt's attacks. Of course, it all came crashing down in the finale. He was revealed to be a bloodbender, he suddenly became a complete fool and his 'plan' turned out to consist of taking away people's bending one at a time.

As for pro-bending... well. I don't dislike it as much as a lot of people do. I think it had a goal. It forced Korra to start thinking in terms of tactics and working around limitations instead of brute-forcing her way through. The problem, of course, is that it was ultimately meaningless, because she didn't actually experience any character growth.

[dehro]

I do have a strong suspicion that the reason why we got to see so much pro-bending is that it meant less work for the design team.
AtlA was very engaging to watch also because in many many episodes we got to see a new use of each individual bending element... either a new move or an adaptation..one time it's ice shards, then it's boulders, then it's rolling hills.. then it's fire-daggers.. etc etc.. it was creative and, I guess, heavy on the workload.
with pro-bending and generally speaking with most of the bending that occurred in Republic City, what we get mostly is a fireball/stream or a waterball/stream..straight punches and very little variation of techniques. it did actually put the new generation benders in an inferior league compared to the Gaang. in fact I'm pretty sure the Gaang would wipe the floor with all of the new generation. sheer scope of their powers and "size of stuff they moved about"..if you see what I mean (maybe Lin Beifong could be the exception, certainly not Mako or Bolin). the new bending seems thight but it also is very uniform.. whereas the bending styles in Atla were very much more diverse in movement and in results those movements yielded.
it can of course be explained by saying that Republic City is a blend of races, styles and bendings, so uniformity of style comes with the territory..but I don't really like it because it does take away from the identity of the benders, their roots and the spiritual side of bending.
Korra in particular should be able to practice those styles in very distinctive ways as she shifts from one element to the nex, but she does no such thing.
whether it's a conscious choice (in the spirit of blending styles together) or a gimmick to have less work to do, I don't like it. whether the care and research for the distinctive styles went out of the window or whether it was purposedly done that way.. I think they've overdone it.
pro-bending is the incarnation of this particular issue in terms of storytelling and the differences with AtlA.

[Deathkeeper]

Second, this is a kids show and guns are not okay on american kids tv.

Uh, Spider-Man? Justice League? Gargoyles? Admittedly they don't always go off but having guns is very commonplace on American TV. Maybe not Nick, but CN definitely.

And with previous arguments:
-I did not like Amon. The show makes the reasonable statement that thy rarely explain special benders so his plot-based Super Blood Bending didn't bother me, but he was just too well prepared, he had too little motives and backstory, and he became too spiteful and stupid in the finale. Awesome voice, though.
-Katara and Aang hooking up immediately after Ozai's defeat wouldn't make sense. Them waiting several years, being close enough that Aang's blatant crush didn't bother Katara until she eventually developed feelings is plausible and it's a common enough trope to make sense. Lots of things can happen in teenage years. Meanwhile, Katara and Zuko share literally one scene which is not followed by her wanting to smash his face in. And that scene was the last they ever shared. This isn't Hey Arnold, it's not meant to be a romance simply indicated by negative reactions. She legitimately hates him for most of the series. Meanwhile, Zuko has a funny and believable teenage girlfriend. Sure, with real life logic any teen love has a 70% chance minimum of crumbling, but from a storytelling perspective if a couple has pretty much no problems it's probably the Final Ship barring one dying or backstabbing the other. And they didn't have problems, aside from Zuko deciding he had to save the plot (and the woorld!).
-I liked Pro Bending a lot. It just had waaay too much screen time.
-I liked Korra as a whole. I thought it had nice humor, good characters, and nice flair. It just suffered from Too Small Season syndrome.

Am I the only one who thinks people are too hard on the animals in this one? While I think having one mount and one small furry pet was a bit too formulaic I still like Naga's design and I think people getting upset simply because she wasn't Appa is harsh. And while he was definitely too much of a Momo replacement Pabu is too cute for me to bash.
Last, opinions on the brief preview we got? A friend of mine is already up in arms over Bolin getting owned while Mako gets the fan service.

[thubby]

guns do happen but they're not something creators can use freely. what qualifies as "inappropriate" can be a limitation. not having them in the universe altogether avoids having to explain situations where the way someone would use a gun would run afoul of censors.

IIRC avatar is TVy7

[Zeful]

guns do happen but they're not something creators can use freely. what qualifies as "inappropriate" can be a limitation. not having them in the universe altogether avoids having to explain situations where the way someone would use a gun would run afoul of censors.

IIRC avatar is TVy7

And that's ignoring that early guns would be pretty useless against benders. They'll really only work in a fight once and then firebenders will be hunting around to ignite powder supplies, earthbenders will just raise earthwalls between volleys, waterbenders will just drench them making the powder worthless, and airbenders will pretty much just jump around too much to get decent aim.

And that's ignoring that early guns are used in formations, which the Avatar world doesn't use. Small unit tactics are preferred due to bender capabilities.

Unless the world goes from the concept of a gun to near-modern era firearms, they're not going to develop much as a form of weaponry.

[Flickerdart]

Obviously, Azula was a Targaryen. :smallamused:

[endoperez]

I do have a strong suspicion that the reason why we got to see so much pro-bending is that it meant less work for the design team.

I disagree. I think pro-bending is in there so they can show bender-vs-bender action. I don't know why they didn't go with a korra-vs-criminals, but if they had a reason not to do that, pro-bending or something like that is one of the few options left for them.
It also lets them tackle one of the issues real-world martial arts scene is handling right now: traditional martial arts like "kung fu" are thought to be old-fashioned, weak and archaic, and they're being replaced by modern styles that claim to do things the "quick and dirty" way, instead of the "slow and flowery" way. They didn't do anything with that in season 1, though.

I also disagree in that pro-bending wasn't easy for the design team. Doing things the same way would be easy. Having to do the things differently than the first series is harder than just doing the exact same thing again. It might not be hard, but it's harder. The moves are simple, yes, in the same way as walking while bouncing a basketball is easy. Having to make something exciting out of simple moves, and combining weak powers together, it takes some effort to come up with what works and what doesn't.
Combine that with the fact that they had to come up with the sport and the rules too.

[thubby]

well, realize that having korra constantly dealing with criminals would drastically change how we view the city.

[Zeful]

well, realize that having korra constantly dealing with criminals would drastically change how we view the city.

Yep. In order to show that the mixing of people of different nations is an advancement of the setting, they can't show Korra fighting an endless succession of criminals. They have to be small in scale and really only appear in the background, otherwise you question why republic city is still standing if it's such a hive of scum and villainy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

not quite sure how you get from bat**** crazy to genetic condition. not that it matters anyway.

Yeah, if she has any kind of condition, it's being one of many types of human personality, further augmented into sociopathy by the environment she was raised in.

[Giggling Ghast]

That was a really beautiful trailer. I'm looking forward to it.

[HamHam]

not quite sure how you get from bat**** crazy to genetic condition. not that it matters anyway.

The Search

If it actually is the case that Zuko is not Ozai's son while Azula is, the conclusion would be that megalomania is something that she inherited. Not to mention possibly paranoid schizophrenia or something similar.

[BRC]

The Search

If it actually is the case that Zuko is not Ozai's son while Azula is, the conclusion would be that megalomania is something that she inherited. Not to mention possibly paranoid schizophrenia or something similar.

Correlation does not indicate causation.

Heres an idea.

Zuko's mother (Who didn't want to marry Ozai) has two children. She knows one is the child of the man she actually loves, the other is the child of the monster she married.

The first child gets a greater share of love and affection, and is protected from the cruel influence of Ozai. The second is loved, but not to the same degree, and is certainly not protected.

Zuko grows up trying to impress his father, but with a core of empathy and human decency.

Azula grows up as Ozai's favorite child, only caring about getting her father's approval.

[Fiery Diamond]

If anything, the thing that most bothered me about Azula was her descent into insanity. Somehow it felt wrong to me, I felt like Azula would be stronger and not crack in that bizarre way.

Keep in mind Azula's only 14. The teens are usually when those genetically predisposed to cracking start to crack.

[Spacewolf]

I really hope that Ozai does turn out to be Zukos father otherwise it will just be another evil royal line which are a dime a dozen. Remember when we tried to get away from that with "The Firelord and the Avatar" or even that small moment where they showed a picture of baby Ozai, that's much more interesting.

[Scowling Dragon]

In general the comic writing was much simpler and poorer then series.

[androkguz]

I for one very much approve the lack of guns. Their presence would have greatly changed the tone and aesthetics of the series.
Guns invoke real world violence and problems in ways that swords and energy blasters don't.

And I did very much like the series! I liked Korra and the mistery of Amon and I was already expecting the series to have 10 episodes so I actually ended up getting bonus material. I liked that no episode felt like a filler and they all moved the plot forward.

But I hated the ending... It would have been far better if Korra had just lost her non-air bending. Or something else.

[Ravian]

But I hated the ending... It would have been far better if Korra had just lost her non-air bending. Or something else.

Hmm... it did feel a tad deux ex machina, maybe if she had to relearn her other bendings... though that would just be the plot of TLA without a serious time requirement (and simpler since she's already found all the bending teachers she needs.)

Maybe they could mention how her other bendings still feel weaker from the experience, forcing her to rely on airbending a bit more at least at first. Just a slight acknowledgement that such an event left scars. (Could even tie in that the severance partially caused the spiritual disturbance, after all when the bridge between men and spirits suddenly has her connection to bending, the greatest representation of that connection, cut, even for a little, who knows what could happen.)

[Clertar]

Yay, september! Yay, Jinara! :)

I have to admit that I really enjoyed Book 1 of Korra. I sincerely don't understand the amount of fanhate it gets online. It's hard to compare it with Aang's series, it's more adult and the themes as well. Aang's story was a parallel to the Jade Empire plot (last surviving monk must end big bad emperor, and therefore embarks on an epic quest while mastering his powers and meeting people), only without the twist xD and Korra's first season was a more character-driven story. I liked Tarlok, and the secondary cast (Tenzin, Lin, ), and Amon's ties with the Gaang were both sinister and an interesting way to tie Korra with Aang.

I also enjoyed the toned-down bending effects, I think it was an extremely smart move to keep things interesting while also staying away from the trap of an ever-escaling power level ala DBZ.

"Unrest in the Spirit World" is the big thing in Jade Empire that wasn't included in AtlA and I'm sure it will make a good theme for the second season of Korra.

[Morty]

If you keep assuming that people who don't like Korra do so because of how it compares to TLA, then yes, you'll be confused. It might become clearer once you realize that a lot of us dislike the show based on its own flaws.

[Clertar]

On the contrary, my friend, that's several times more confusing.

[BRC]

On the contrary, my friend, that's several times more confusing.

Not really. Parts of the show that bother other people don't bother you.

[t209]

I really hope that Ozai does turn out to be Zukos father otherwise it will just be another evil royal line which are a dime a dozen. Remember when we tried to get away from that with "The Firelord and the Avatar" or even that small moment where they showed a picture of baby Ozai, that's much more interesting.
Well,
The first emperor's intention was benevolent since he wanted to spread progress and industry across the world (like Saruman). Then he became evil. The comic did show that a mighty city was a dingy fishing village before fire nation lay claim to it. Then again, it became an evil empire.

[HamHam]

So while listening to today's NC Vlog I had a thought:

We see all these varied and crazy bending abilities in the show, but if you consider it realistically, wouldn't you just find the one move that is most efficient in apply death to a target at reasonable range and just use that every time?

EDIT:

To put it in L5R terms, the Kakita style of bending.

[Scowling Dragon]

Since bending is varied depending on location, the amount of people, THEIR technique, their skill and power there never is "The best move"

[BRC]

So while listening to today's NC Vlog I had a thought:

We see all these varied and crazy bending abilities in the show, but if you consider it realistically, wouldn't you just find the one move that is most efficient in apply death to a target at reasonable range and just use that every time?

EDIT:

To put it in L5R terms, the Kakita style of bending.

Bending is based on Martial Arts. Just as there is no "One Best Move" in Martial arts, there is no "One Best Move" for bending.

You do see people use standard moves reliably. Firebenders had this one "Punch and Shoot a Blast" motion they did all the time, earthbenders had their "Stomp the ground to lift up some earth, punch forward to shoot it" routine. The bending equivalent of a good, reliable kick or punch.

However, if that's ALL you know, then you'll go down as soon as you run into a situation where that dosn't work, and you can never predict every situation.

You are a firebender, you are caught off guard, at close range, from behind. You don't have time to do your "Step-Punch-Blast" Move. You COULD do some sort of swipy motion to quickly bring up a little flame, stalling your enemy and buying you some time to get into position.

But you can't, you only ever learned Step-Punch-Blast, because it was the most reliable way to deal damage at a reasonable distance.

Of course, you could practice Step-Punch-Blast AND Buy-time swipey move, but THEN you're fighting somebody fast enough to dodge your Step-Punch-Blast, so you need a faster, if weaker, move to hit them. So you practice a Rapid-punch move that shoots a lot of weaker blasts. But THEN there is some nasty earthbender who pulls up walls that block your shots, so you need a way around that, so you practice a Jump-shoot-blast downwards move. But Then you're fighting two people, so you need a sustained wall of flame to hold one of them off, so you practice THAT too.

Then you start practicing moves for a wide variety of situations that are not covered by Step-Punch-Blast.

Then you are practicing a Martial Art, because only knowing one move will get you killed.

[HamHam]

Since bending is varied depending on location, the amount of people, THEIR technique, their skill and power there never is "The best move"

Is that really true though? Use earth bending as an example:

Earth spike from below through chest. You don't need anything else. Just perfect that one move until it's so strong no armor can stop and so fast no one can dodge it.

Your navy might need different training, sure, but otherwise you're good.

[BRC]

Is that really true though? Use earth bending as an example:

Earth spike from below through chest. You don't need anything else. Just perfect that one move until it's so strong no armor can stop and so fast no one can dodge it.

Your navy might need different training, sure, but otherwise you're good.

Such a move may be too difficult for everybody to learn, especially to the degree where it's fast enough that it can't be dodged and strong enough that it can't be blocked.

[HamHam]

Such a move may be too difficult for everybody to learn, especially to the degree where it's fast enough that it can't be dodged and strong enough that it can't be blocked.

But some people certainly are. And how much is that a matter of talent and how much training.

Maybe we have seen at least one example of this actually, with Sparky Sparky Boom Man?

[AstralFire]

Trailer looks great, but trailers give no sense of pacing - and pacing has been a very big problem for Book 3 of TLA and Book 1 of Korra, so I'm skeptical.

[Scowling Dragon]

Earth spike from below through chest. You don't need anything else. Just perfect that one move until it's so strong no armor can stop and so fast no one can dodge it.

That move in actuality is incredibly difficult and impractical to pull off.

Needs the right soil, and the right density and consistency or otherwise all you did was either have some dirt smack somebody in the boing loing, or just push them upwards.

And once you did it enough, people armorize their undersides more, and suddenly the move is useless.

[AstralFire]

I am pretty sure that the "ultimate unstoppable Earthbending move" should be the stone or metal bullets we've seen demonstrated a few times, given that until you run out of pellets, they're extremely fast, easy to control, and hard to dodge or block. But that would be boring. Same reason we hopefully won't see much out of Combustion Ray or Bloodbending in the future.

[HamHam]

That move in actuality is incredibly difficult and impractical to pull off.

Needs the right soil, and the right density and consistency or otherwise all you did was either have some dirt smack somebody in the boing loing, or just push them upwards.

And once you did it enough, people armorize their undersides more, and suddenly the move is useless.

The only time I can think of that soil type seemed to matter was in the desert. Otherwise Earthbenders seem more than capable of hardening top soil or maybe they just tap into the bedrock underneath.

And if they have armor you just need to hit them harder.

Throwing rock shards is another option (metal once you discover metalbending). The difference is you need line of effect and there is more visible distance the attack traverses so it would be easier to block.

[Scowling Dragon]

The only time I can think of that soil type seemed to matter was in the desert. Otherwise Earthbenders seem more than capable of hardening top soil or maybe they just tap into the bedrock underneath.


Thats never how it worked. A Big ol chunk of soil is going to be heavy and hurt no matter what kind it is.

Earthbending is actually quite hard too control when it comes too shapes and sizes.

Its always rough and chunky.

Tapping into bedrock would push aside the soil first and be a very fast alert.

I think you continuously underestimate people, skills, and the ability to dodge.

Your super move is just impractical.

Also in general I very much didn't like the proliferation of Lightning Bending and Metal Bending.

It never felt like something that could be made easier to learn.

[endoperez]

Earth spike from below through chest. You don't need anything else. Just perfect that one move until it's so strong no armor can stop and so fast no one can dodge it.

Compare that to kicking someone in the groin. It's fast, debilitating and easy to learn, and it's got longer range than a punch.

Why doesn't everyone do that?

Well, for one reason, you can't kick people in the groin in all situations. Like when it's your best friend who just called you an idiot. You want to punch him, not make him mad. Or even if it isn't your friend, if he's from the neighboring village... chances are someone would pay you back in kind, eventually, so you're better of wrestling a bit and perhaps giving him a black eye or something. 'Cause, you know, you don't want to get kicked in the groin in revenge.

Secondly, it's not going to work if the other guy is standing with his side towards you. He's a smaller target overall, and the vitals are only reached by an awkward angle. Standing with your side towards your enemy, your arms ready to react to his attack, is also one of the most common fighting stances.

Thirdly, that attack only works at specific distance. Throwing a boulder targets a whole line. Your enemy can't dodge the boulder by taking a quick step forward, towards you. Kicking him in the groin won't work if he closes in to wrestle with you.
If you thought he was coming closer, but he didn't, well now you've shown your hand and he's is ready for you.


That said, it does sound like an effective move. Like kick to the groin, it is effective, and it would work very well every time you land it.

[John Cribati]

Also in general I very much didn't like the proliferation of Lightning Bending and Metal Bending.

It never felt like something that could be made easier to learn.

No, but if you have more people teaching it, and more people trying to learn it, you get more people who actually learn it. Just like there aren't that many people who know how to code, but every website has a guy coding for it.

[HamHam]

Thats never how it worked. A Big ol chunk of soil is going to be heavy and hurt no matter what kind it is.

Earthbending is actually quite hard too control when it comes too shapes and sizes.

Its always rough and chunky.

I don't know, looking some clips... maybe it's just an animation issue where stone and soil are colored the same so I can't really tell the difference, but they seem able to just get boulders out of the ground on demand.

Or the Aang - Bumi duel. To me that arena looks like it has a dirt floor and not solid stone, and yet Bumi has no problem making earth spikes.

If this is a concern though, then carrying around your own stones and using projectile seems like a better idea.


Well, for one reason, you can't kick people in the groin in all situations. Like when it's your best friend who just called you an idiot. You want to punch him, not make him mad. Or even if it isn't your friend, if he's from the neighboring village... chances are someone would pay you back in kind, eventually, so you're better of wrestling a bit and perhaps giving him a black eye or something. 'Cause, you know, you don't want to get kicked in the groin in revenge.

This isn't relevant to a nation at war. Eventually someone is going to get the brilliant idea to make a style designed to kill your enemy in the most effective and efficient way possible and only that.


Secondly, it's not going to work if the other guy is standing with his side towards you. He's a smaller target overall, and the vitals are only reached by an awkward angle. Standing with your side towards your enemy, your arms ready to react to his attack, is also one of the most common fighting stances.

That assumes only a basic form of the attack. Mastery would mean you could strike from many different angles.


Thirdly, that attack only works at specific distance. Throwing a boulder targets a whole line. Your enemy can't dodge the boulder by taking a quick step forward, towards you. Kicking him in the groin won't work if he closes in to wrestle with you.
If you thought he was coming closer, but he didn't, well now you've shown your hand and he's is ready for you.

There are two ways to approach this problem.

One is to learn to throw boulders, earth surf, make that earth armor thing, all that stuff.
The other is to learn to create multiple spikes, and apply what you know about making one to that. Learn to make a spike at point blank range while grappled and not hit yourself. Learn to make a wall of spikes, a circle of spikes both around you and around a target, etc.

[The Rose Dragon]

This isn't relevant to a nation at war. Eventually someone is going to get the brilliant idea to make a style designed to kill your enemy in the most effective and efficient way possible and only that.

I'm sure the various militaries of the world would like to know what that perfect way is, since they have been working on finding it for thousands of years (cumulatively).

[Flickerdart]

Compare that to kicking someone in the groin. It's fast, debilitating and easy to learn, and it's got longer range than a punch.

Why doesn't everyone do that?

Well, for one reason, you can't kick people in the groin in all situations. Like when it's your best friend who just called you an idiot. You want to punch him, not make him mad. Or even if it isn't your friend, if he's from the neighboring village... chances are someone would pay you back in kind, eventually, so you're better of wrestling a bit and perhaps giving him a black eye or something. 'Cause, you know, you don't want to get kicked in the groin in revenge.

Secondly, it's not going to work if the other guy is standing with his side towards you. He's a smaller target overall, and the vitals are only reached by an awkward angle. Standing with your side towards your enemy, your arms ready to react to his attack, is also one of the most common fighting stances.

Thirdly, that attack only works at specific distance. Throwing a boulder targets a whole line. Your enemy can't dodge the boulder by taking a quick step forward, towards you. Kicking him in the groin won't work if he closes in to wrestle with you.
If you thought he was coming closer, but he didn't, well now you've shown your hand and he's is ready for you.


That said, it does sound like an effective move. Like kick to the groin, it is effective, and it would work very well every time you land it.
Kicking a guy in the groin is a terrible move - it's a small target, and the attack can be rendered ineffective by angling your body a few degrees, which you can easily do because kicks are slow. In a similar vein, Earthbending is probably the slowest style and telegraphs its attacks the most with all the stomping and whatnot; everyone worth using a "supermove" on would be way too fast for it to work.

[dehro]

Is that really true though? Use earth bending as an example:

Earth spike from below through chest. You don't need anything else. Just perfect that one move until it's so strong no armor can stop and so fast no one can dodge it.


except other benders of other elements have different skillsets to counter that move. airbenders for instance, are basically made for dodging.. they are on average faster than most other benders, specifically at dodging. also, you don't need to be faster at dodging an attack than the attacker, if you can anticipate the move because you know (and after a few fights you do know) that that's the move that is coming

anyway, no, specializing in just one attack flies in the face of millennia of combat experience. there's a reason why even the lamest and most incomplete fighting system comprises a number of techniques.

[HamHam]

Kicking a guy in the groin is a terrible move - it's a small target, and the attack can be rendered ineffective by angling your body a few degrees, which you can easily do because kicks are slow. In a similar vein, Earthbending is probably the slowest style and telegraphs its attacks the most with all the stomping and whatnot; everyone worth using a "supermove" on would be way too fast for it to work.

To what extent are the motions actually necessary? When Zuko learns the lightning redirect the finger thing is just a visualization aid. All the actual work is being done by manipulating chi internally... somehow.

If you spent years mastering just the form for making earth spikes, could you learn to do it by barely tapping your foot? Or not even moving at all. After all, Bumi can Earthbend with like just his nose.

And the thing is the attack travels under the ground. So it might telegraph to another earth bender... but a fire bender will have no idea.

Anticipation might work... but you have no real way of knowing exactly when that spike is going to pop up in your blind spot and skewer you. If you dodge ahead of time you might be dodging right into it.

[BRC]

Concerning the proliferation of Metal-and-Lightningbending, I half agree.

Metalbending was something Toph discovered because her Tremorsense, combined with her status as one of the most powerful and skilled Earthbenders alive, allowed her to figure out the trick of bending the impurities in metal.
Remember, Toph's bending was entirely self-taught (She learned from the badger-moles, but it's not like they gave her lessons), so the core techniques themselves are probably not so much advanced as unusual. I can believe her being able to teach other people Metalbending.

Lightningbending on the other hand is a different matter. Zuko, who you may remember is a prince of the fire nation, and therefore likely received the best firebending training available (Which isn't to say he's the best firebender. Of the characters on the show he's a very distant fifth after Iroh, Ozai, Azula, and Zhao, just that he had access to the best TRAINING) was unable to do it (Admittedly, because he was too emotional, but that didn't stop Crazy!Azula from throwing lightning around in the final Agni-Kai, but still, we saw plenty of master firebenders not using Lightning).

Also, Zuko asked Iroh to teach him Lightningbending, implying nobody had bothered to teach him, the (Admittedly teenaged) Son of the Fire Lord.


So yeah. Technique developed by a Self-Taught Prodigy, I can buy being spread. Lightningbending, not so much.



To what extent are the motions actually necessary? When Zuko learns the lightning redirect the finger thing is just a visualization aid. All the actual work is being done by manipulating chi internally... somehow.

If you spent years mastering just the form for making earth spikes, could you learn to do it by barely tapping your foot? Or not even moving at all. After all, Bumi can Earthbend with like just his nose.

And the thing is the attack travels under the ground. So it might telegraph to another earth bender... but a fire bender will have no idea.

Anticipation might work... but you have no real way of knowing exactly when that spike is going to pop up in your blind spot and skewer you. If you dodge ahead of time you might be dodging right into it.

Characters like Toph and Bumi can earthbend with minimal movement because they are master Earthbenders. Very few Earthbenders get anywhere near that level.

You're describing some hypothetical master Earthbender who decides "I Only want to be able to do one thing, and that is kill people", so he spends years practicing the Earthspike technique.

First he has to get it strong enough to pierce armor. THEN he has to get it fast enough that his opponent can't step out of the way. THEN he has to get it subtle enough that his opponent can't predict it from his physical movements. THEN he has to get it controlled enough to hit an opponent who is going to be moving around a lot in the course of battle ANYWAY.

Then he'll still lose the first time he's caught off guard, or fighting an earthbender good enough to counter his one move, or fighting multiple opponents, because on top of everything I described above, being able to do all that, Two times simultaneously, is going to be another matter entirely.

Meanwhile, somebody else spends that time learning earthbending, and are able to handle a wide variety of situations.

[AstralFire]

Wait... how do you come up with the conclusion that Zuko's an inferior bender to Zhao? Did you mean Jeong-Jeong?

[BRC]

Wait... how do you come up with the conclusion that Zuko's an inferior bender to Zhao? Did you mean Jeong-Jeong?
Yeah, Jeong-Jeong. IIRC Zuko actually explicitly out-firebends Zhao.

[Flickerdart]

To what extent are the motions actually necessary?
Saying "the thing we see everyone else do might theoretically not be necessary" is kind of not an argument. Yes, Bumi does bending with his face, but he's over a hundred old, the best Earthbender of his time if not all time (Toph had fancier tricks, but I'm not sure who'd win if they threw down), and the things he manages to do with that are not exactly superweapon-grade battle moves.

[Scowling Dragon]

Its like casting:

If your good enough, your capable of doing everything without necessary movements, however WITH movements your capable of doing amazing stuff.

[Flickerdart]

Its like casting:

If your good enough, your capable of doing everything without necessary movements, however WITH movements your capable of doing amazing stuff.
We saw what Bumi was capable of with movements.

[thubby]

the ultimate limit of any technique is the practitioner. no move is so effective that it cant be countered because no matter how fast the effect is, the user still has to do their little dance.

bumi was among the most powerful earth benders in the series. the most he could do while mostly immobilized was free himself.

[John Cribati]

Lightningbending on the other hand is a different matter. Zuko, who you may remember is a prince of the fire nation, and therefore likely received the best firebending training available (Which isn't to say he's the best firebender. Of the characters on the show he's a very distant fifth after Iroh, Ozai, Azula, and Zhao, just that he had access to the best TRAINING) was unable to do it (Admittedly, because he was too emotional, but that didn't stop Crazy!Azula from throwing lightning around in the final Agni-Kai, but still, we saw plenty of master firebenders not using Lightning).

Also, Zuko asked Iroh to teach him Lightningbending, implying nobody had bothered to teach him, the (Admittedly teenaged) Son of the Fire Lord.


So yeah. Technique developed by a Self-Taught Prodigy, I can buy being spread. Lightningbending, not so much.


Maybe Lightning was orignally a Royal Family thing, but with Zuko out there traveling the world as some sort of emissary of peace, he probably started teaching people.

And then there's the question of whether or not metal and lightning-bending have proliferated as much as we make it out. I mean, the only metalbenders we see in Korra are the police. rather than saying this means that there are an inordinate number of metalbenders, some of whom became police, it may mean that learning metalbending is essential to police training. And how many people do we see bending lightning? Mako, five or six other guys in a factory, and the firebending mob boss. Not really a lot, considering the population of a big city.

[BRC]

Maybe Lightning was orignally a Royal Family thing, but with Zuko out there traveling the world as some sort of emissary of peace, he probably started teaching people.

And then there's the question of whether or not metal and lightning-bending have proliferated as much as we make it out. I mean, the only metalbenders we see in Korra are the police. rather than saying this means that there are an inordinate number of metalbenders, some of whom became police, it may mean that learning metalbending is essential to police training. And how many people do we see bending lightning? Mako, five or six other guys in a factory, and the firebending mob boss. Not really a lot, considering the population of a big city.
I also think not all cops were Metalbenders. I got the impression that the Metalbenders represented a small elite in the Police force. They showed up when Korra got into her fight with the Triads because they hang out in an airship, thus allowing for rapid deployment.

[HamHam]

Characters like Toph and Bumi can earthbend with minimal movement because they are master Earthbenders. Very few Earthbenders get anywhere near that level.

But if it's just a matter of being able to do the internal stuff without an external focus, shouldn't it be easier to make a single technique instinctive to that point than be able to do so generally?

Thus you could gain that ability in a reasonable amount of time and without being a prodigy.

[Scowling Dragon]

But if it's just a matter of being able to do the internal stuff without an external focus, shouldn't it be easier to make a single technique instinctive to that point than be able to do so generally?

I guess it isn't.

[Ravian]

I also think not all cops were Metalbenders. I got the impression that the Metalbenders represented a small elite in the Police force. They showed up when Korra got into her fight with the Triads because they hang out in an airship, thus allowing for rapid deployment.

Yeah there was that one cop that chased off Korra for fishing in the park, he seemed to be a non-bender with a night stick.

Lin's Metalbenders might be a special forces swat team type deal, particularly since their cables are particularly useful for restraining benders (see Korra's capture in the first episode), and the metal armor was supposed to be useful against the equalists before they went and got themselves tasers.

[Ramza00]

So while listening to today's NC Vlog I had a thought:

We see all these varied and crazy bending abilities in the show, but if you consider it realistically, wouldn't you just find the one move that is most efficient in apply death to a target at reasonable range and just use that every time?

EDIT:

To put it in L5R terms, the Kakita style of bending.

You mean like the Dai Li whose hand and feet cuffs restrict movements thus preventing most bending as well as stopping non benders as well. The only way to stop said move is to attack said move while the move is still in the air.

[Scowling Dragon]

Or just dodge it.

Not too mention Earth benders could evade it even easier.

[Douglas]

You mean like the Dai Li whose hand and feet cuffs restrict movements thus preventing most bending as well as stopping non benders as well. The only way to stop said move is to attack said move while the move is still in the air.
Didn't Aang just casually bend those cuffs off of himself once?

[dehro]

But if it's just a matter of being able to do the internal stuff without an external focus, shouldn't it be easier to make a single technique instinctive to that point than be able to do so generally?

Thus you could gain that ability in a reasonable amount of time and without being a prodigy.

what we see in the show makes this doubtful at best.
also, you seem to wilfully ignore the most important characteristic that is the root of the development of all martial arts: adaptation.
every martial art is an adaptation of a previous one, or an adaptation of skills and attributes to a situation that needs to be faced.
a new martial art is the answer to it's founder's question "this doesn't work/I can do better, how do I adapt what I know to make it work better for me?"
let's say that a trend develops whereby a number of earthbenders develop what they think of as an ultimate weapon. let's say that this works for a while. in the end, it may take a couple of fights or maybe even a generation if other benders (of whatever element) aren't talented enough, but eventually somebody will include in his training a set of moves and the development of a set of skills designed specifically to counter that weapon or technique. it is inevitable because everything we know of evolution of martial arts tells us that this is what would eventually happen.

[Clertar]

I always assumed that the metalbending special forces were indeed a small limited elite group, maybe similar to the Kyoshi warriors in some sense, whose numbers were the addition of the metalbenders kidnapped by Amon in the middle of the series, and the remaining ones captured during the attack on Tenzin in the second-to-last episode.

[Ramza00]

Didn't Aang just casually bend those cuffs off of himself once?

It was done for humor by then a master earthbender so I do not take this an indicative of a normal earthbind situation.

[Fiery Diamond]

Interesting conversation. I'm on the side of the "supermove is not a viable idea" people.

I liked Legend of Korra Season I (though less than AtLA). Pacing was bad, love triangle was bad, Mako is stupid, Asami is annoying, and Amon being a bloodbender was less interesting than it could have been. But on the whole, I enjoyed it. One complaint I don't see mentioned is Korra's airbending using what look like firebending motions when she gets it. That irked me.

Also, I don't know what people's problem with the character Korra is. Some say she's basically a thug. ... So? Good-natured, innocent thug who only fights bad guys is a GOOD character model. It's not a very complex one, but it is highly enjoyable. It's the kind I find easy to relate to.

[Scowling Dragon]

Also, I don't know what people's problem with the character Korra is. Some say she's basically a thug. ... So? Good-natured, innocent thug who only fights bad guys is a GOOD character model. It's not a very complex one, but it is highly enjoyable. It's the kind I find easy to relate to.

Well that despite her thuggish ways being crude and just make stuff worse, she seems to get away with everything in the end.

[Clertar]

I really liked the Tenzin character, and Korra's relationship with him is very interesting on a couple of levels.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m63jaun0NO1qcpkj3o1_500.gif

[Randomguy]

I really liked the Tenzin character, and Korra's relationship with him is very interesting on a couple of levels.

I would have chosen a different gif for that post. Namely, the one from Korra's probending match; his reaction when she finally starts circle walking.

[Arkhosia]

I wonder if we'll see a subtype of airbending at some point.
All the other bending types have notable subtypes that are somewhat hard to learn or require a special prerequisite: bloodbending, metalbending, and lightningbending. They were introduced over time (in opposite order than listed), and unlike with the other bending types there was no comparison for Aang's airbending, do as far as we know there could be a subtype of airbending that aang never learned.
I personally think maybe something such as stormbending.

No, fartbending doesn't count.

[Friv]

Also, I don't know what people's problem with the character Korra is. Some say she's basically a thug. ... So? Good-natured, innocent thug who only fights bad guys is a GOOD character model. It's not a very complex one, but it is highly enjoyable. It's the kind I find easy to relate to.

The problem that people have (including me, although to a lesser extent than some) is that the Avatar is supposed to learn to manage their personal flaws and balance themselves in order to access their full potential and spiritual capabilities, and Korra doesn't learn crap.

She's not just a thug - that would, frankly, be fine. She's someone who is set up to be learning lessons and growing as a person, and then has all of her solutions handed to her on a silver platter at the last minute when she gives up completely because her "punch things to death" strategy isn't working.

Korra never develops, and while she frequently suffers mistakes and setbacks, often due to her habit of fist-based diplomacy, those setbacks are always helpfully erased by chance or guardian spirits so that she doesn't have to learn anything.

[Zevox]

I wonder if we'll see a subtype of airbending at some point.
All the other bending types have notable subtypes that are somewhat hard to learn or require a special prerequisite: bloodbending, metalbending, and lightningbending. They were introduced over time (in opposite order than listed), and unlike with the other bending types there was no comparison for Aang's airbending, do as far as we know there could be a subtype of airbending that aang never learned.
I personally think maybe something such as stormbending.
Ugh. You're making a big mistake there by considering those to somehow be "subtypes" of the different bending disciplines. Bloodbending and Metalbending are simply natural extensions of Water and Earth bending - blood is mostly water, and metal is purified earth. That they can be bent is inherent to the bending types to begin with.

Lightning is more unusual, and seems to have been created just to give another cool ability to Azula and Ozai when you get right down to it. But Iroh at least had an explanation for that as well.

But the point is, unless you can think of something that is similar or connected to but not entirely air for airbenders to bend, odds are there is no such thing for them. And no, "stormbending" wouldn't work - that would be something waterbenders could maybe do, probably with airbender assistance (since we've already seen Katara and Aang manipulate clouds by combining the two, which would be step 1 to such a thing).

[HalfTangible]

Ugh. You're making a big mistake there by considering those to somehow be "subtypes" of the different bending disciplines. Bloodbending and Metalbending are simply natural extensions of Water and Earth bending - blood is mostly water, and metal is purified earth. That they can be bent is inherent to the bending types to begin with.

Lightning is more unusual, and seems to have been created just to give another cool ability to Azula and Ozai when you get right down to it. But Iroh at least had an explanation for that as well.

But the point is, unless you can think of something that is similar or connected to but not entirely air for airbenders to bend, odds are there is no such thing for them. And no, "stormbending" wouldn't work - that would be something waterbenders could maybe do, probably with airbender assistance (since we've already seen Katara and Aang manipulate clouds by combining the two, which would be step 1 to such a thing).

Void bending? (Bending a vaccuum)

[thubby]

Well that despite her thuggish ways being crude and just make stuff worse, she seems to get away with everything in the end.

you mean the good guy wins? surprise?


Void bending? (Bending a vaccuum)

that is in concept not possible. you can put all the vacuum in the universe in a bottle. there'd still be nothing inside.

air benders using sound would be interesting.

[endoperez]

I agree with Zevox. Metalbending and sandbending are different ways of using earthbending, with different strengths and weaknesses.


Are there different ways of using airbending? Yes. What could they be?

Airbenders can cut things with air, make blades, swords. A brutal airbender could fight like an assassin, leaving rivers of blood behind him - I doubt this though, since the series tends to avoid that sort of stuff.

Airbenders can move really fast. A muscular, phyically oriented airbender (= Korra) might use airbending to help her martial abilities, using the speed to score physical hits. Kyoshi warriors with bending?

Airbenders can move air around, possibly at a distance. An airbender with very precise control could use it almost like telekinesis. Think Mai + those super-archers from ATLA season 1, with the missiles changing directions in midair.

Toph could sense through her earthbending. Can an airbender sense through airbending? Danger sense, clairvoyance, dodging without looking and all that are suddenly very real.




you mean the good guy wins? surprise?

Contrast Aang in the Crossroads of Destiny / End of season 2.

Guru: You have to let go of earthly desires
Aang: I can't!
Stuff happens.
Aang's hand is forced, but he does come to terms with what he has to do, and lets go.

Then it doesn't really affect anything much and he still hooks up with her.

Nevermind, it's actually working out like in the original. Lessons are taught, the avatar kinda-maybe does something symbolic, everything works out in the end.

[thubby]

if air sense were possible it would be either ludicrously difficult or much less precise than earth sense. air is just too mutable.
where earth is generally stationary but vibrates, air moves readily.

the most deadly and practical thing an air bender can do is carry throwing knives. we've seen what mai can do, now imagine everything she did was faster, from potentially impossible angles, and the projectiles could turn.

[Sith_Happens]

the most deadly and practical thing an air bender can do is carry throwing knives. we've seen what mai can do, now imagine everything she did was faster, from potentially impossible angles, and the projectiles could turn.

I'm now imagining an airbender in Wesley's costume from the Wanted comics. Which, incidentally, looks weirdly similar to the Equalist chi-blocker uniform if you stare at it a bit.

[Morty]

I would much rather there was no "sub-skill" for airbending than if they added a far-fetched one just because all the other bending styles have them. Symmetry for symmetry's sake is pointless.

Mind you, I was a little disappointed by how Tenzin and his supremely annoying kids were still the only airbenders left. Seems like a wasted opportunity after the Northern Air Temple episode in TLA.

[Calemyr]

that is in concept not possible. you can put all the vacuum in the universe in a bottle. there'd still be nothing inside.

air benders using sound would be interesting.

I think vacuum bending could be interesting and terrifying. Pull all air from around your target and watch as the pressure difference within the vacuum tears it apart.

[Flickerdart]

If it weren't a kids show, bending the air out of someone's lungs (or bending poisonous gas from a handy reservoir into their lungs) would be a very effective fighting technique that could be countered only in very cinematic ways (such as water/firebenders surrounding themselves in a shell of their element that prevents the poison from getting through and then just going without air for the few seconds it would take them to knock the other guy out of his stance).

[Ravian]

I would much rather there was no "sub-skill" for airbending than if they added a far-fetched one just because all the other bending styles have them. Symmetry for symmetry's sake is pointless.

Mind you, I was a little disappointed by how Tenzin and his supremely annoying kids were still the only airbenders left. Seems like a wasted opportunity after the Northern Air Temple episode in TLA.

I don't mind the kids (Apart from Meelo, kid is creepy :smallyuk: ) I assume that the northern Air temple and it's inhabitants, apart from being Earth Kingdom by blood, lack the required spiritualism for any weird spontaneous bending abilities to be plausible. The closest thing the mechanist and the others from the temple get to emulating Air Nomads are that they live in the same place and use gliders, other than that they just build machinery and carve through sacred spaces, something Aang wasn't too happy about. The equivalent would be fire nation colonists learning Earthbending because they built large stone structures.

I was rather suprised that Tenzin was the only child of Aang and Katara who could Airbend. I had always assumed that since all the Air Nomads we've seen are Airbenders, then the trait for bending would be more common.

Though perhaps it's Katara that was the reason. It's possible that mixing bending bloods muddles the chances (With Mako and Bolin being a good roll of the genetic dice) meanwhile with a Non-bender like Tenzin's wife (forgot her name) the trait flows much more easily between generations (Which is why most of Tenzin's kids (we don't know about the new baby yet) are all Airbenders.

Though maybe Airbending is just as common as other bending arts and there were non-airbending nomads (possibly living like actual nomads) with Airbenders sent from an early age to the temples. The nomads were also wiped out but it could be an interesting concept of Airbending suddenly appearing in a bloodline that traced back to a nonbender nomad who went into hiding and escaped the genocide.

[endoperez]

If it weren't a kids show, bending the air out of someone's lungs (or bending poisonous gas from a handy reservoir into their lungs) would be a very effective fighting technique that could be countered only in very cinematic ways (such as water/firebenders surrounding themselves in a shell of their element that prevents the poison from getting through and then just going without air for the few seconds it would take them to knock the other guy out of his stance).

Except for the fact where the personal "chi aura" or whatever it was that stops waterbenders from bloodbending everyone except during full moon.

Hmm. Except Katara had no trouble pulling the water Aang had swallowed when he fell into water (in the first Kyoshi island episode). If you can do that, airbending the air out might be possible too?

Then again, "breath is qi", so it's kind of a special case. That's literal, actually. The 气 = qi, chi) that means "life energy" also means air, gas, breath, spirit etc. For examle ple 气 of 气功 (= qigong, chi kung) means 'breath' and qigong literally means 'breathing exercise'. It's the thing both Aang and Zuko did as part of their firebending training in season 1.

[Morty]

I don't mind the kids (Apart from Meelo, kid is creepy :smallyuk: ) I assume that the northern Air temple and it's inhabitants, apart from being Earth Kingdom by blood, lack the required spiritualism for any weird spontaneous bending abilities to be plausible. The closest thing the mechanist and the others from the temple get to emulating Air Nomads are that they live in the same place and use gliders, other than that they just build machinery and carve through sacred spaces, something Aang wasn't too happy about. The equivalent would be fire nation colonists learning Earthbending because they built large stone structures.

At the end of the episode, Aang says that Theo might not be an airbender, but he has the spirit of one. If that doesn't count, I don't know what does. Yes, they're Earth Kingdom by blood, but heritage is only a part of what determines bending abilities - that much we know.


I was rather suprised that Tenzin was the only child of Aang and Katara who could Airbend. I had always assumed that since all the Air Nomads we've seen are Airbenders, then the trait for bending would be more common.

Though perhaps it's Katara that was the reason. It's possible that mixing bending bloods muddles the chances (With Mako and Bolin being a good roll of the genetic dice) meanwhile with a Non-bender like Tenzin's wife (forgot her name) the trait flows much more easily between generations (Which is why most of Tenzin's kids (we don't know about the new baby yet) are all Airbenders.

Though maybe Airbending is just as common as other bending arts and there were non-airbending nomads (possibly living like actual nomads) with Airbenders sent from an early age to the temples. The nomads were also wiped out but it could be an interesting concept of Airbending suddenly appearing in a bloodline that traced back to a nonbender nomad who went into hiding and escaped the genocide.

We don't know, because neither show really explains just what it is that makes some people benders. We do know that all Air Nomads were airbenders, though. Still, at some point, people who weren't airbenders became airbenders by learning from the Air Bisons - same as people who weren't waterbenders became waterbenders by studying the moon and its influence on the tides. Maybe Book Two will shed some light on it... but frankly, I'm not counting on it.

[HamHam]

what we see in the show makes this doubtful at best.
also, you seem to wilfully ignore the most important characteristic that is the root of the development of all martial arts: adaptation.
every martial art is an adaptation of a previous one, or an adaptation of skills and attributes to a situation that needs to be faced.
a new martial art is the answer to it's founder's question "this doesn't work/I can do better, how do I adapt what I know to make it work better for me?"
let's say that a trend develops whereby a number of earthbenders develop what they think of as an ultimate weapon. let's say that this works for a while. in the end, it may take a couple of fights or maybe even a generation if other benders (of whatever element) aren't talented enough, but eventually somebody will include in his training a set of moves and the development of a set of skills designed specifically to counter that weapon or technique. it is inevitable because everything we know of evolution of martial arts tells us that this is what would eventually happen.

Except there's a reason martial arts are largely irrelevant after the invention of guns. Sure, you still teach soldiers some basic hand to hand technique just in case. More so for special forces and the like who are more likely to end up in a situation requiring it. But there is no martial art that can counter a bullet.

And bending allows you to employ ranged weapons. Ranged weapons very possibly on the level of firearms. Lightning, if nothing else, is at least as fast and deadly. Rock or ice projectiles seem equivalent to arrows at the very least, which are already impossible to dodge.

Except anime physics and all is in play... so maybe not?

[dehro]

meet master Tanaka. he's got a thing or two to say about dodging arrows.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBNOmcOmD1w)
and that is without anime physics
yes, it looks like a one trick thing..except it's a katana. and it illustrates my point, which is that introduce a "one trick-technique" keep it around for long enough, and people will adapt and find a counter.
in fact we see it happen in AtlA when Toph metalbends herself a suit of armor to protect from projectiles and other bending techniques and elements.

[BRC]

Except there's a reason martial arts are largely irrelevant after the invention of guns. Sure, you still teach soldiers some basic hand to hand technique just in case. More so for special forces and the like who are more likely to end up in a situation requiring it. But there is no martial art that can counter a bullet.

And bending allows you to employ ranged weapons. Ranged weapons very possibly on the level of firearms. Lightning, if nothing else, is at least as fast and deadly. Rock or ice projectiles seem equivalent to arrows at the very least, which are already impossible to dodge.

Except anime physics and all is in play... so maybe not?

Also we, you know, see people blocking/dodging bending attacks all the time, so within the physics of the setting, they are clearly NOT equivalent to arrows and guns.


And in this case it's not "Guns vs Martial Arts". The Martial Arts ARE the guns.

Only they're not guns, they're magic kung-fu, with enough differences that comparing them to guns is really kind of silly.

[HamHam]

Also we, you know, see people blocking/dodging bending attacks all the time, so within the physics of the setting, they are clearly NOT at play.


And in this case it's not "Guns vs Martial Arts". The Martial Arts ARE the guns.

Only they're not guns, they're magic kung-fu, with enough differences that comparing them to guns is really kind of silly.

How about this:

Benders act like they're Book of 9 Swords characters. When they could be acting like Evokers with flashy somatic components.

And even an evoker beats Bo9S.

[Burner28]

When will the first episode be aired?




I liked Legend of Korra Season I (though less than AtLA). Pacing was bad, love triangle was bad, Mako is stupid, Asami is annoying, and Amon being a bloodbender was less interesting than it could have been.

Wait, how come you found her annoying?

[Arkhosia]

When will the first episode be aired?



Wait, how come you found her annoying?

I kinda liked asami, though she doesn't top Toph by a long shot sadly.

[Dragonus45]

I kinda liked asami, though she doesn't top Toph by a long shot sadly.

Ehh, no one could ever top Toph, just like no villain will ever be able to manage to replicate the sheer unholyaweterror of Azula.

[endoperez]

How about this:

Benders act like they're Book of 9 Swords characters. When they could be acting like Evokers with flashy somatic components.

And even an evoker beats Bo9S.

That isn't relevant.
There's a five element system of Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, but since Avatar doesn't use it for the basis of bending, it doesn't matter. Similarly, D&D rules don't matter, because Avatar doesn't use it for the basis of bending.

It seems like you want the series to be something it isn't. It happens (personally I like imagining that airbending is the deadliest and most brutal form of bending, which scared all the airbenders into being pacifists), but you should check if your view of what the show or could become is matches how it's actually portrayed, and whether the creators are likely to change that.

[Flickerdart]

Ehh, no one could ever top Toph, just like no villain will ever be able to manage to replicate the sheer unholyaweterror of Azula.
I didn't find Azula to be all that. She was a sadistic nutjob and a skilled fighter, but that's not exactly special.

[Scowling Dragon]

I didn't find Azula to be all that. She was a sadistic nutjob and a skilled fighter, but that's not exactly special.

Thats like saying Insert Complex character here, was just Simplification of the character

[thubby]

honestly she's probably one of the more accurate depictions of violent sociopathy in fiction.

[Dienekes]

honestly she's probably one of the more accurate depictions of violent sociopathy in fiction.

Ehh she was fun and interesting until her mental breakdown. I know it was planned beforehand and it totally makes sense for her character. But at that point she stopped being the devilishly intelligent villain that I had enjoyed and became a mindless maniac

[thubby]

Ehh she was fun and interesting until her mental breakdown. I know it was planned beforehand and it totally makes sense for her character. But at that point she stopped being the devilishly intelligent villain that I had enjoyed and became a mindless maniac

even mentally unstable she's still ridiculously smart and manipulative. she won against zuko because of it.
also, it gets explored really well in the followup comics.

[t209]

Ehh she was fun and interesting until her mental breakdown. I know it was planned beforehand and it totally makes sense for her character. But at that point she stopped being the devilishly intelligent villain that I had enjoyed and became a mindless maniac
And look at our good ol Tony "Scarface" Montanna before he got addicted to his own product.
Spoiler from the film
at least he managed to be a badass before he was shot in the back.
I don't like trying to make Ozai and Offspring like what happened to Habsburg and other royalty. Maybe the environment was evil to begin with. And Iroh turned out to be decent man.
Plus
http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/legend-of-korra-republic-city-hustle-episode-1-cd3.html?xid=LOKfb
a webisode.

[dehro]

so.. I've watched the first 2 episodes of season 2.
so..spoilerised in case you haven't.

I'm somewhat underwhelmed by the characters...by Korra in particular.
ok, only 6 months have passed..but she seems not to have learned a thing or matured at all.
I already was displeased about how she got the avatar state and her bending pretty much handed to her in the season 1 finale in a matter of minutes.. it seems though she really hasn't learned a thing, which is somewhat disappointing because throughout the entire run of AtlA, personal growth and learning things was pretty much central to the entire plot just as much as the.. plot itself.
instead we get introduced to her sourfaced uncle who is patently a jerk and within a matter of seconds she dumps her father and her teacher/tutor to run off with uncle sourgrapes and his creepy android children.
also, Tenzin himself manages this in the worst possible way and it seems that neither he nor her father have learned squat about how to deal with Korra either. does Tenzin not know Korra at all by now? not even after all they've gone through in season 1? I was kinda expecting Katara to smack him on the head for how he (well..the plot) was forcing Korra into stupidity.
not to mention that not informing the Avatar about spiritual unrest and accidents must equate pretty much to high treason on Tenzin's part.
ok, it's a show for children..well.. ok, teens... but the first episode in particular grates me quite a bit because of how strongly the plot points are pushed down my throat to force it all along. pacing was a big, big issue in season 1, and now they've gone and quickstepped Korra into a new plotline at Benny Hill speed and through a few nonsensical and forced decisions by some of the main characters. that doesn't bode well.
also.. who else called it that king sourface wanted to get his hands on his big brother's playground? I know I did.
and how does Korra plan to open the portal? basically by punching it? and she's still swallowing anything someone says for the purpose of driving the plot along, without any critical thinking or indeed..any introspection at all...
(also, she's not giving her father even the benefit of the doubt?)
Aang was all about finding ways to make things work.. Korra is (still) all about punching stuff and stumbling by accident into making things work when punching doesn't help.
So she REALLY hasn't learned squat then..despite being able to call upon the avatar state and, I immagine since it comes with the territory, her predecessors.

I still like the show visually and there are some funny bits (and I expect some memorable ones too, given time).. but.. no, so far I'm not really excited.
I kinda want her to step down from Avatar and let Bolin have a go. he can't do much worse

[HamHam]

There's a whole new thread that got started. Might want to go there.

[dehro]

There's a whole new thread that got started. Might want to go there.

Heu...derpy moment