How to not be a Fail-Rogue in Pathfinder

[Drayco84]

System is Pathfinder, but that doesn't exactly matter a WHOLE lot. Let me explain...

Started a Pathfinder game last month or so, and I would up playing a catfolk rogue in a custom setting that's going be heavier on the political intrigue side of things and less hacky-slashy.
My problem is that I -SUCK- as a rogue. So far during our 4-5 session long game, I've found my first trap with my face, and wandered into not one, but TWO ambush situations DURING THE SAME FREAKING SESSION. (Ambush situations where the PCs should've been the ambushers.)
I don't want to go into a whole lot of build specifics because the point is, I don't really know HOW to play a rogue. Not build-wise, play-wise. I can min-max, but that doesn't do me any good if I don't know what I'm min-maxing FOR.

If it helps, I have Scent, Low-Light Vision, Climb, (DM fiat.) and the Catfolk Exemplar feat that grants claws. Best stat is Dex, followed by Int, and I plan on grabbing the feat that grants 30ft Darkvision, but how do I PLAY a rogue?

Again, looking for PLAY advice, not BUILD advice.

[Snowbluff]

No build advice? Oh dear.

Um... stop rolling so bad on your search checks? Win initiative?

Better yet, just find out where your enemies live, and kill them in their sleep. You can climb up walls to avoid a lot of security. You spend your feat on a combat feat, so use it to assassinate people.

[avr]

A few ideas -

Don't carry a light when you're attempting stealth. Ever. No, not even then.

Don't be afraid to be the first to attack if you might be able to take the enemy down before they sound the alarm.

On the other hand, when you're on your own, sometimes running is the right first move.

Don't get so far ahead of the party that running back to them is a bad idea.

Try wearing a disguise so that in a situation where you absolutely can't hide, you're not automatically found (if you have any talent in disguise/bluff).

Don't play a rogue out scouting with a DM who decrees automatic failure on stealth a lot of the time.

PS: read and learn the rules on taking 10 and 20, if you haven't already.

[Yora]

Don't try to be a warrior if you are not. That seems to be the main reason people think the class is weak.

[Just to Browse]

You're a melee rogue?

Well, I don't play PF so I can't give you direct advice, and this is also build related, but try as hard as you can to be tanky. d8 hit die is better than 3.x's d6, but you will still die in melee.

ON SCOUTING: Make sure you have things that help you escape. Like smoke, blinding lights, or some sort of escape ability. With these, you can scout ahead for the party, checking for ambushes and then coming back. If the enemies find you, you blow your escape abilities/items to get out and now the party knows about the ambush. Ambushes are one of those "it happens or it doesn't" sort of things, in that the DM will generally either want you to be ambushed and so you will be, or he'll want you to find out, so if you try and don't roll 1's then you'll get it.

ON TRAPS: Traps are stupid. You can deal with traps by saying "I would like to roll once for all the trap searches I make in the whole dungeon", and then roll for and the DM will just tell you if you get traps. Otherwise you could constantly take 10 on all search checks, or constantly take 20. Traps also a thing that either screws you or it doesn't, so if the DM is throwing traps at you, just shrug your shoulders and hope you roll high on your reflex save.

The key to winning D&D3/PF as a rogue is to be crafty. You get 8 + Int skill points, so you should have all the necessary core skills plus a few obscure ones. Finding ways to implement those obscure skills gets you brownie points at the table for being cool and also encourages the DM to give you Good Things (in terms of results) because you're being imaginative. At least that's what my instinct is as a DM.

EDIT: Also, the feat that grants 30' darkvision? Are you sure you're min-maxing properly?

[Need_A_Life]

Well, build style and play style ARE pretty related. As a rogue, you want to go for being a "striker," "DPS" or whatever terminology you prefer, staying close enough to combat to strike but far enough away to not get mistaken for one of those plate-wearing meatshields.

Go for stealth and mobility. Hell, if the GM allows it, I'd pick up some featherfalling tokens (from 3.5 Eberron; 50gp, single-use featherfalling) just so that you have the option of going "yeah, I'll jump out the window of the tower," when the situation demands it.
You have decent detection abilities, so barring having dumped Perception I'm guessing the ambushes were due to poor rolls?

Personally, I like Rogue (Archetypes: Scout, Knife Specialist) with the Enforcer feat and the Blade of Mercy trait. Lots of subdual damage combined with a debuff and moving towards getting Shatter Defences.
If 3.5 sources are allowed, taking Imperious Command at level 5 is almost optional with this build, allowing you to effectively stun an enemy and then simply execute them next round with none of that "fair play" getting in the way.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sorry, but build advice does matter. Rogues are a weak class already, and while you can improve or worsen their lot with your tactics, it still needs to be addressed. Likewise, as someone else said, stealthing with a light source is suicide. I would never play a rogue or other stealthy guy without darkvision. Never. Even then, at least 1/4 the Bestiary has some special sense like Tremorsense, Scent, or Blindsense that will insta-jib you, and obviously the monsters are basically unbeatable for a solo rogue who doesn't even have surprise. So stealthing is, in general, a bad idea.

You want to use stealth to stick WITH the party to finagle surprise rounds when you can, or at least not be targeted by enemies until you break stealth to attack. If you must scout ahead, do so no more than 100-200 ft in front of the party, and that's actually kind of pushing it. If no one else in the party can get near you in a single round (running, or double moving if they can't run), you're too far away. Even just 100 ft back means foes have a -10 to hear/see them compared to you, which is usually enough for the clanky dudes in full plate to be ok.

You at least seem to be trying, realizing you need to get darkvision and all.

[Drayco84]

Like I said, I'm mostly looking for advice on how to play, not how to build. Anyway, if you guys need it then... (Please bear in mind that this is a custom setting and the character is level 1, JUST getting to level 2. Also, I have Drop Dead Studios' Rogue Glory for some things, as long as the DM approves them. It really does make an archer rogue far more viable.)

Catfolk Rogue ( Cat Burglar Archtype is planned. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-catfolk/cat-burglar-rogue-catfolk) However, this will cost Uncanny Dodge and its upgraded version.)
Str 15, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 15. (DM allowed one stat at 18 and allowed high point buy if we got fail-rolls.)

Racial Traits:
Cat's Luck was traded for Low-Light Vision via DM fiat, Natural Hunter, Climber, and Scent.

Starting Traits:
On Guard (+1 to Init and Quick Draw during Surprise Rounds.), and a fiat trait that gives her human language choices instead of catfolk. (It's a flavor thing, and the game will be mostly based in human lands.)

Feats:
Catfolk Exemplar: Cat's Claws. (Didn't want to give up Natural Hunter and the +2 bonus to Perception, Stealth, and Survival. Will pick up Aspect of the Beast: Night Senses for 30ft Darkvision at lvl 4, most likely, and a Cat's Eye Crown later to get 90ft Darkvision. For those that don't know, Catfolk can't start out of the gate with Darkvision, but some other members have it.)

Skills: (Using Favored Class bonus to get the +1 skill point per level over the + .5 Bluff to Feint and Sleight of Hand to steal objects.)
Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Craft (Jewelry), Diplomacy, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Knowledge (Local), Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, UMD.
(+2 skill points per level via DM fiat as long as one of them is in a craft, profession, knowledge, or perform. Might grab a point of int at 4th level and get ranks in Craft (Alchemy) because nobody has it now, and it has all KINDS of fun toys. Plus, like I said, this is going to be a highly social game with lots of downtime and DM is using UE's gemcutting rules.)

Going to be picking up Melee Archer rogue talent, which allows flanking enemies with a bow as if using a weapon with Reach. Will hopefully allow me to suck a bit less in combat. Black Market Connections will prolly be the talent for 4th level as that's when we'll be able to leave the starter town that's been cut off and has nothing in terms of ability to buy gear and such.

And I suppose I should explain HOW I failed so far. Simply put, the first time I was given a warning by the DM starting that I heard howls and such coming from up ahead that suddenly went silent. I let some of the party move forward a bit, then jumped the gun myself and found myself surrounded by three wolves. Got lucky when the party Bard Fascinated two of them, and I made an acrobatics check to successfully hide in the middle of the group while plinking with a couple -4 shortbow shots. (Firing into Melee.)

Second time was a suspicious little run-down shack in the middle of these caves where the voice from inside called us to come in, claiming that it was too weak to come out.
Obvious trap was obvious.
Went in ANYWAY (Like a derp or a slightly more cautious Leeroy Jenkins...) and wandered into a small room to find a werewolf hiding in the corner. (No, the DM isn't INTENTIONALLY trying to kill us, he just has a 9-player strong party to deal with and vastly overestimated how strong it'd be.) Got attacked and tripped by a wolf, and the werewolf would've had kitty for dinner if the monk hadn't grabbed my char and repositioned her to safety. (DM is allowing Max HP + Con mod + Con SCORE as 1st lvl hp, and werewolf took the barbarian down to half hp with 1 round. Oh, and nobody wanted to play the healer. If these guys weren't well experienced and known for pulling crazy-ass plans that pay off, I'd say we'd be rolling new chars every few sessions.)

So... Yeah... Stupid player is stupid, (And I'm also the youngest in terms of PnP game experience.) and Google didn't help. All KINDS of info on build optimizing, but none on the actual mindset/playstyle for a sneaky rogue. Thankfully, both times the rest of the party was within helping distance before my catfolk became dogfood, but it's pretty obvious that I'm screwing something up here. The first time, the clue just didn't click, and the second, I should've used Scent or something to scope out the room but I wasn't thinking.

[StreamOfTheSky]

So yeah. Sounds like you didn't even get that far from the party and still nearly died. Good illustration of why you shouldn't sneak off far ahead.

I'm just going to leave this here. JaronK's Guide to Proper Scouting (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0). It's written for D&D 3.5, but most of it is about the psychology and tips and tricks, and thus useful even for a PF game. You really need to be careful with the scouting ahead, though.

As for combat, if you want to be a ranged rogue, PF is a very inhospitable place. Your only real option is a dip into Oracle for 1 level; I'll explain how and why if you're interested. If you want to melee, then focus on that. Just...pick one and focus your feats there, you can't afford the feats to "switch hit."

[Renegade Paladin]

If you're dying to traps, pick up the Trap Spotter rogue talent. I know that's build advice, but if you're forgetting to check for traps, simply make it the DM's job. :smalltongue:

[Spuddles]

You're squishy, and you'll always be squishy. Watch out for your hide, number one. Number two is set yourself up for sneak attacks.

Ask your DM if he'll let you get the ability to hide form sent and stuff. Cats IRL are pretty good at not being detected via scent. As StreamOfTheSky points out, there are a ton of monsters out there that can see you via extrasensory means.

Also ask your DM if he'll let you roll fewer stealth checks than what the rules call for. The rules require you to roll stealth every time you move, which is basically every 3 squares. That's super lame.

Beware that crafting takes FOREVER as far as the rules are written.

At low levels, equipment is your friend. You should have a crapton of MW tools, for instance. You should also be looking for flanking bonuses, bonuses from attacking from higher ground, and attacking from stealth.

Stealthing ahead is only worthwhile for gathering information so your wizard can put up spells or something. In general, splitting up is always a bad idea. Especially in a 9 man group- you off ahead means 8 other people are bored and that the monsters that are supposed to attack 9 players instead just attack you. In my experience, stealth is better if you're a DM. Running around combat hiding usually means you reduce your DPR to 0.5 to 0.1 of what you would be doing if you instead just tumbled in and full attacked opportunistically with TWF.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, this is PF, so tumble is also suicide. PF did not treat rogues very well...

[Spuddles]

Well, this is PF, so tumble is also suicide. PF did not treat rogues very well...

It should generally have a 50% chance of working, which means half the time you have a ~50% of a monster getting an opportunity to swing on you, if they still have an AoOs left. And that's if you invest nothing but full ranks & dex. With a little specialization, you can get it considerably higher.

A fire giant, CR 10, has CMD of 31. 10 (ranks) +3 (trained) + 6(dex) means a roll of 12 or higher beats it. Boots of Elvenkind (2500gp) give +5, which means a roll of 7 or higher gets through. So, I mean, yeah, it has a chance of provoking, but ok. Everything should be risky. That's hardly suicide. Say you've got 25 armor (10 base, 6 +2 mithral chain, 6 dex, +3 assorted) vs. a +31 attack. That's a 30% chance of missing, which isn't a very small chance of missing, given that a 35% chance of failing to tumble is "suicide".

And this rogue isn't particularly overgeared- mithral chain is 5.1k, gloves of dex are +4k, +3 assorted defenses ~6k, boots are 2.5k, total That's all affordable by level 7 or 8, leaving 10k to 15k for weapons.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, Spuddles.

If tumbling has a 50% chance of succeeding, that means ifyou are trying to do a single hit and run skirmish type tactic, it means the monster is getting 1.5 attacks for each of yours. If the rogue had the hp, AC, attack, and damage of the Fighter...this would still be nearly assured destruction. But the rogue is squishier than that.

Tumble is suicidal.

It needs to be auto success or nearly auto success to be worth it, mathematically. 3E understood this. Monks and Rogues were vulnerable as hell in melee but at least could easily escape it when they got into trouble. Pathfinder took away the easy out but left them just as vulnerable.

Investing max ranks and having high dex should be enough. The fact that you have to invest equipment and possibly feats and STILL have a sizeable failure rate is pathetic; the monsters aren't investing diddly squat to get their CMD scores up.

And perhaps I should cut this rant short before I start listing all the ways mid level SPELLCASTERS can move without provoking via spells, which according to Paizo is "overpowered" and hence the tumble nerf was "needed." Mainly because I'm sick of listing it all.

[Spuddles]

Yes, Spuddles.

If tumbling has a 50% chance of succeeding, that means ifyou are trying to do a single hit and run skirmish type tactic, it means the monster is getting 1.5 attacks for each of yours. If the rogue had the hp, AC, attack, and damage of the Fighter...this would still be nearly assured destruction. But the rogue is squishier than that.

Tumble is suicidal.

It needs to be auto success or nearly auto success to be worth it, mathematically. 3E understood this. Monks and Rogues were vulnerable as hell in melee but at least could easily escape it when they got into trouble. Pathfinder took away the easy out but left them just as vulnerable.

Did you bother at all with the rest of the post? With marginal optimization, chance of tumble failing (ie, taking damage) decreases to 10%.

The problem isn't tumble, the problem is trading full attacks in melee with a fire giant.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I did read the post. Needing a 7 or better is not a 10% failure rate.

Tumble does not fail if you take damage, it fails if you get attacked. The whole point of using tumble is to *not get attacked*.

[Renegade Paladin]

So you think that no matter how skilled a warrior the target may be, any punk that can make a DC15 skill check should be able to automatically best all his defenses? :smallconfused:

[Spuddles]

I did read the post. Needing a 7 or better is not a 10% failure rate.

Tumble does not fail if you take damage, it fails if you get attacked. The whole point of using tumble is to *not get attacked*.

My math was off- it's an 18% chance of not taking damage. And that's the important part- not taking damage.


So you think that no matter how skilled a warrior the target may be, any punk that can make a DC15 skill check should be able to automatically best all his defenses? :smallconfused:

Yes of course :smallsigh:

The real problem is the lack of viable mundane skirmish options in D&D, for any third edition variant.

[Nagukuk]

Try being more cautious.

Rolls are rolls if you flub a roll there is not much at lvl 1 that you can do about it, being truly heroic may be slightly difficult.

The general job of a scout should be finding the enemy then reporting to the larger force with as much info as can be SAFELY learned.

Hide/MS always while ahead of the party, the party must slow down as you move slower while sneaking.

Be cautious ... but not to the point of paralysis ...

the shack is up ahead its strange to be underground = something lives in there, The voice from with in confirms it. and "screams" trap/ambush in your "player" mind. OK then you think "since i'm the scout ill go open the door - try to sneak in and take a look around" ... with my bow in my hand ...

NO NO NO NO

First of all who what ever is in there knows you and your party are there.
They may have heard you or smelled you or saw you or may be watching you currently

YOU need more info ... HEY DM!

How big is the shack? ---it is X by Y ---(big enough for a werewolf and a couple of wolf pets but it would still be close quarters for bow work)

Any windows? how many doors? ... can you sneak around to the back to check? are the windows low/covered/glassed/shuttered? IE could you shoot through them with your bow?

Is the shack raised off of the floor? ... Could you crawl under it?

Is are there any light inside? ... can you see inside? can you see thru a crack in the wall or a window?

YES you can - well what do you see
NO you cant - drat i wish i had that darkvision

DON'T OPEN THE DOOR DON'T GO IN YET!

Do you hear any thing moving/shifting/breathing inside?

remember you are being cautious... and there could be 10 or more beings in there...


What is the shack constructed from ? (shack in my minds eye says wooden, but that may not be the case) if it is wooden the ambusher has made a mistake and is hiding in a flamable building ... do you / your party want to light the building on fire and force the beings out possibly injuring or killing some in the process? perhaps there are potential innocents in there, so burning is not an option ...

you could -

Try to bluff the being(s) inside that you are going to burn the place down

make a distraction to try to make those inside move so you can hear where they are standing or how many there are.

test the door to see if it is open/locked/trapped.

ok, now you found or didn't find as much info as you can you are at the front door

YOU DO NOT GO IN THE DOOR you are the scout that does not mean you are the first thru the door!

A few more options, while at the door

Open the door and have the party with ranged weapons ready for when the door opens ... potentially shooting any thing the party sees

Open the door and have the barbarian charge in the room

Open the door and wait for the enemy to come to the door to fight them

Open the door and look around, you see a wolfman in the back corner and a couple of dogs lying on a rug --- oh crap there is a werewolf in there and hes not alone---

Open the door and see nothing ... DO NOT go in and "look around" if you had approached the place unnoticed perhaps then you could sneak in, but if anyone knows you are coming and even worse coming thru a door that you have to open first will make it nearly impossible for the enemy to NOT see you, they will see you, they will eat you, yummy yummy kitty snacks.

Use caution

Don't become a yummy yummy kitty snack.

[ericgrau]

Search every square. You don't have to roll 37 times, but declare you're searching the whole room taking 37 rounds (3.7 minutes). Then either take a 10 on your checks or the DM may make you roll once for the whole room. If you take 20 times as long (here, 74 minutes) you may take a 20. If you do find a trap, attempt to disable it. But after that let the tank go through it not yourself.

Scout ahead of the party, using stealth plus cover (corners, pillars, etc.) and perception. Doors are tricky but crack the door open a hair, peek underneath, use a keyhole or etc. and see if anyone is looking. If someone is, the party charges in tank first. If not quietly sneak in. Once you find foes do not engage, and quietly return to the party to report. A wand of silent image helps too, or better yet cast at long range or metamagicked with silent spell. If the door opens towards you, create an image of a closed door. Bookmark the illusion rules, so you can point to them as saying the guards do not get a save unless they are interacting with or examining the door. Unlikely unless they expect trouble. Another common DM mistake is to have unaware foes roll stealth checks and then ambush the party. Have they really been hiding around a corner 24 hours a day? Foes standing out in the open don't get stealth checks. Bookmark the rule that says stealth requires cover or concealment.

Then the 2nd time you sneak in with the party (who aren't sneaking) and ready to fire your bow the moment your allies appear. Then you beat one of the foes' initiative and sneak attack again.

That's it!

[StreamOfTheSky]

So you think that no matter how skilled a warrior the target may be, any punk that can make a DC15 skill check should be able to automatically best all his defenses? :smallconfused:

1. CMD and BAB do not represent "skill." There are lots of plodding gigantic mounds of hit points, sometimes MINDLESS, with far higher BAB and CMD than the most elegantly trained swordsman fighter will ever achieve.

2. "Any punk" in 3E couldn't just make a DC 15 reliably. If it wasn't a class skill, and it wasn't for most classes, getting to a +14 was quite costly and painful. It was practically a class feature for rogue, monk, bard, and others. And believe it or not, it wasn't always 15. Sometimes, there was more than one dude in the way, or the ground was uneven or something.

3. Moving around someone safely is hardly "getting past his defenses." A tumble check never killed anybody.
3.a. You don't seem to mind that low level spells can get past a level 20 fighter's defenses JUST FINE, though. Only when the classes intended to be skirmishers can do it.

I certainly don't mind having some means to train such that you are harder to slip past than others. But it should be a specialized thing, and it should require *investment* like the acrobatics skill does, not something that comes along for free with level up. This is my current attempt. (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?319142-Rogue-Pure-skill-personified/page3) It uses Acrobatics to counter Acrobatics. You don't necessarily need to cartwheel in stereo with the other guy (though you could) or whatever, but it's based on the premise that the best way to know how to stop a tumbler is to train in it yourself, and that even if you stay in your space you need to be able to react quickly (thus, still dex-based skill instead of int or wis) to thwart it. Also, at least Acrobatics is a useful skill, as opposed to making up a skill just to oppose tumbling, as Sense Motive largely exists solely to defend against Bluff. So it seemed like the best route to go.


And that's the important part- not taking damage.

No, the important part is not getting attacked. Your AC, DR, etc.. are entirely separate. If I get attacked 6 times in an encounter, statistically I am taking more damage than if I am attacked 5 times. Even though due to the all-or-nothing nature of resolving attacks (and damage roll variance, and possibility of crits...), there could in one particular case be no difference or even *less* damage from the 5 attacks.

Tumble exists to prevent being attacked. Having a cloak of minor displacement doesn't make you "a better tumbler." Having damage reduction 10/-- doesn't make you "a better tumbler." Having super high AC does not make you "a better tumbler."


The real problem is the lack of viable mundane skirmish options in D&D, for any third edition variant.

Tome of Battle did a pretty good job. Warblade and Swordsage were both lightly armored classes w/ Tumble, and had tons of great standard action strike maneuvers. They even had a few abilities to move as a swift action, so you could move-strike-move.

[Beardbarian]

My two cents:

If you start the fight from afar there is a great chance to make a sneak attack. 1d10+xd6 is a lot of damage for the beginning.

Use magical devices. Seriously. Is the best skill in the game for you.

[Spuddles]

No, the important part is not getting attacked. Your AC, DR, etc.. are entirely separate. If I get attacked 6 times in an encounter, statistically I am taking more damage than if I am attacked 5 times. Even though due to the all-or-nothing nature of resolving attacks (and damage roll variance, and possibility of crits...), there could in one particular case be no difference or even *less* damage from the 5 attacks.

Tumble exists to prevent being attacked. Having a cloak of minor displacement doesn't make you "a better tumbler." Having damage reduction 10/-- doesn't make you "a better tumbler." Having super high AC does not make you "a better tumbler."

I guess I am looking at the paradigm of "take less damage when you move". You contend that the new rules for tumble make it suicide, I just think it means you get to spend around one less round in full attack range of a monster.

Don't get me wrong- it's really crappy relative to 3.5. But if you look at it as a damage mitigation method, it's alright. A lot better than the alternative, which is just copping the hit.


Tome of Battle did a pretty good job. Warblade and Swordsage were both lightly armored classes w/ Tumble, and had tons of great standard action strike maneuvers. They even had a few abilities to move as a swift action, so you could move-strike-move.

I really liked tome of battle, for that reason. And they also had worthwhile standard actions. Unlike vital strike. What a horrible feat chain. Feat chains are such bad game design.

And I wouldn't really consider warblade "lightly armored". Medium armor prof in 3.5 usually meant mithril full plate/mechanus gear when you could afford it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I guess I am looking at the paradigm of "take less damage when you move". You contend that the new rules for tumble make it suicide, I just think it means you get to spend around one less round in full attack range of a monster.

Don't get me wrong- it's really crappy relative to 3.5. But if you look at it as a damage mitigation method, it's alright. A lot better than the alternative, which is just copping the hit.

Well yeah, if that's your metric, even 5% less chance of being hit is better than nothing. I look at it in a larger sense of...

"I could make a skirmisher type guy who attacks once per round... Oh, but it looks like the enemies, with AoOs, will get something like 1.5 or 1.3 attacks for each of his then. Wow, that's stupid. I'm a just make a full attack damage god that slugs it out and kills them before they kill him."

If skirmishing is a lopsidedly bad trade *and* takes investment...why am I even making a skirmisher? Compare to a Spell Combat using Magus with the Bladed Dash spell. He CAN do the hit and run thing and come out well ahead. Very well ahead! And he doesn't even need any Acrobatics ranks or magic items.


I really liked tome of battle, for that reason. And they also had worthwhile standard actions. Unlike vital strike. What a horrible feat chain. Feat chains are such bad game design.

And I wouldn't really consider warblade "lightly armored". Medium armor prof in 3.5 usually meant mithril full plate/mechanus gear when you could afford it.

Well, Vital Strike can potentially be useful with a big ass natural weapon attack and twinking it the hell out (INA feat, Strongjaw spell, size increasing magic, etc... to get up to 12d6 base damage; Furious Finish + Barbarian dip to max out the damage) like crazy. It just sucks at its intended purposes and takes way too much effort.

As for Warblade... YMMV, I guess. Mithral B-plate and especially Fullplate isn't worth the money or even affordable until later on. Also, most Warblades tend to go for Stormguard Warrior, so they *want* a nice dex for Combat Reflexes anyway. Also, heavier armor hurts tumbling (at least until mid levels when it's auto success) and the jump checks / speed bonus to jump checks that various very awesome Tiger Claw maneuvers use extensively.
So I often see Warblades in light armor and later on maybe mithral breastplate. If nothing else, lightly armored set up is completely viable and well-rewarded.

[Spuddles]

OP, you should take opportunities to steal things, if your DM will let you. Having higher WBL than you ought to is worth it, and really, more WBL should practically be a class feature of rogues.


Well yeah, if that's your metric, even 5% less chance of being hit is better than nothing. I look at it in a larger sense of...

"I could make a skirmisher type guy who attacks once per round... Oh, but it looks like the enemies, with AoOs, will get something like 1.5 or 1.3 attacks for each of his then. Wow, that's stupid. I'm a just make a full attack damage god that slugs it out and kills them before they kill him."

If skirmishing is a lopsidedly bad trade *and* takes investment...why am I even making a skirmisher? Compare to a Spell Combat using Magus with the Bladed Dash spell. He CAN do the hit and run thing and come out well ahead. Very well ahead! And he doesn't even need any Acrobatics ranks or magic items.

The tumble nerf wouldn't be so bad if rogues actually got something to make up for it. Instead they get half a feat every other level and most of their niche shared with everyone else due to the new skill rules.

Bladed Dash is also a second level spell on a non-full caster that works once per combat. I mean it should be pretty good, for what you get. You know what's ridiculous? the domains and mysteries that give clerics & oracles leadership. Wtf is that.


Well, Vital Strike can potentially be useful with a big ass natural weapon attack and twinking it the hell out (INA feat, Strongjaw spell, size increasing magic, etc... to get up to 12d6 base damage; Furious Finish + Barbarian dip to max out the damage) like crazy. It just sucks at its intended purposes and takes way too much effort.

Vital Strike works best on a druid's pet. I'm pretty sure that wasn't what they were going for, though.


As for Warblade... YMMV, I guess. Mithral B-plate and especially Fullplate isn't worth the money or even affordable until later on. Also, most Warblades tend to go for Stormguard Warrior, so they *want* a nice dex for Combat Reflexes anyway. Also, heavier armor hurts tumbling (at least until mid levels when it's auto success) and the jump checks / speed bonus to jump checks that various very awesome Tiger Claw maneuvers use extensively.
So I often see Warblades in light armor and later on maybe mithral breastplate. If nothing else, lightly armored set up is completely viable and well-rewarded.

Ah, our games tend to be combatant heavy, so a couple more points of AC are really helpful, given the number of attacks we're copping a round.

[omnitricks]

Well I'm playing a rogue now for a game with friends (in a long line of rogues testing out different stuff) First thing I did this time? Trade out trap finding and trap sense so I can use the poisoner archetype. Those two are suicide flags which cause people to force you to be get into danger. What we do now is send the half orc paladin forward to trip the traps, if we really need to pass it (this only works because we have two dedicated healers though)

Another thing is traps can potentially be found by anyone as long as they have perception (you only need one bad roll to miss the trap but only one person out of nine needs a good one to spot them) and disabled by anyone as long as they have disable device (but not magical traps though since that needs trapfinding) So tell the whole party to contribute with the finding (its not that hard!) and you can do the disabling (but stay away from the magical traps if you traded them off)

Since you say political intrigue and you are the skill monkey its good you have diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive. Use them, abuse them! Also try to consider disguise (I guess you only need knowledge local at 1 rank so take the subsequent skill points from there) If you're built well you can use disguise to infiltrate enemies (unless its for size you're still golden) and gather intel and bluff to keep it up (unless you have language problems, then you have to improv. Got caught once disguised as a goblin without the language, just acted crazy with a torch and the bugbears threw me out without any incident because they were too busy preparing for war) Information is always the key for a successful rogue because you can prepare.

You suspect whatever was in the shack was not good? Use Sense Motive. Or just Sense Motive everyone if you have a reason to (even if its a little)

Also consider looking at the master spy prestige to get a rough idea of what you might need for an intrigue type game even if you don't want to go for it.

Craft Alchemy? I say excellent! They are good if you aren't going for the damage (my rogue currently does minimal damage, no joke but he helps the party by chugging out random items from his haversack. For 5 sessions alchemical items have been coming out in situations we never expected) And they are cheap and fast to make once you get the Master Alchemist feat. Poisons are also useful (and with your intelligence, if you raise it at level four you can make 4 doses in the time of making one dose)

Frankly best advice? Be as selfish as possible if you can (as in a you don't want to die mentality) Like, don't let anyone be 60ft behind you at any given time (running/charging distance methinks) or 120 max (so you guys can meet each other mid point) or as you said, obvious trap is obvious trap, send in the meatshield first.