How to fall? [Paladin to Blackguard Transition]

[Darklady2831]

Hello Playground, it's me, Darklady! I'm looking for some advice, mostly about how to forge a great 'Dark Knight' out of a Paladin and his fall...

Story and Background

As the tale goes, Alaric, a Knight of Pelor, has always been kind at heart. He was taught and indoctrinated at a monastery when he was young, and was later taken as the squire of a paladin who frequented the joint. Eventually, he was dubbed a Paladin of the Order of Pelor, ordained as a Priest, and allowed to make his own way in the world.

As fate would have it, the young Paladin was taken by surprise and dragged halfway across the world, to a place called Nehwon. After escaping the clutches of foul slavers, and finding himself in the company of a rude but tolerable sorcerer, he followed the road from nowhere, to a city called Lankhmar. Here he discovered a temple to Pelor that had laid abandoned for years.

Taking up the mantle of priest, he reopened the temple, and began to preach. For roughly a month, this went on, until a gang known as the Slayer's Brotherhood began causing problems for him. Chief among them was their tendency to stab the paladin in the gut and demand half of the offerings given by the poor beggars he cared for. Rather than give them the satisfaction, he gave them his word he would close the temple in one week. They gave him three days. He set about saying a temporary goodbye to his flock, swearing to them an oath that he would vanquish the Slayer's Brotherhood and reopen the temple.

My trouble is, I can't figure out why such a righteous man might fall. My vision for the character, and the idea for the campaign, is to become an Evil Overlord, and my personal ambition (mine, not my character's) is to conquer the City of Seven Score Thousand Smokestacks (a.k.a. Lankhmar). He's been nothing but kind to nearly everyone he's met. He's handed out loaves of bread to the beggars that choke the streets. He's healed the sick and injured, and he's preached against the evil god of lies and deceit, Mog.

So, any ideas? What kind of event might cause this kind of man to fall.

Crunch!
Alaric of Trenzalore, is my first level Gestalt Cloistered Cleric/Paladin. So far, I have Power Attack, and Improved Sunder. Gear wise, I'm dirt poor, with nothing but a Dagger, scraps of wood and burlap, my hand carved holy symbol, and a handful of coins to my name.

In theory, Alaric will be a Cloistered Cleric 9/Paladin 9 during the level that he falls, as I'd love to gain access to the bonus Blackguard abilities that come from being a Fallen Paladin.

So, playground, I ask you, what kinds of feats should I take? What sorts of spells, domains, and such. Should I take another Prestige Class rather than straight Cloistered Cleric?

Ultimately, I want my character to fit the image of sadistic, cruel, bloodthirsty conqueror with bespiked armor, a bloody great sword, riding a winged nightmare (Either an actual Nightmare with Wings attached, an Undead flying monster, a Dragon, or an Undead Dragon). My problem is the in between, and how I should plan it out.

[avr]

As to why Alaric might fall, serious disappointment in the ineffectiveness and/or corruption of his fellows might lead him to take a shortcut which goes horribly wrong. From what I remember of Lankhmar ineffectiveness and/or corruption among the good guys isn't unlikely.

[Arcanist]

One of my favorite reasons for falling is taking your God's beliefs to the ultimate extreme to the point where you're missing the point of the faith entirely. The problem is that Pelor is a known Demon Lord and short of you publically going on a slaughterous rampage it is highly doubtful that you will be banished...

Perhaps your power is not enough and you might need some infernal assistance? Or an old friend of yours, a fellow priest, comes to your aid using less then reputable methods and you follow his path. At first out of the idea of exposing his corruption, but slowly he corrupts you and you betray him leading you to the idea that the only way to sustain true unity amongst Pelor's churches is to take the entirety of the church down and rebuild it from scratch under what you believe should be the best way to serve your master :smallamused:

[Andezzar]

While I can see that corruption/ineffectiveness in the organization he serves and disillusionment about what is necessary for good people to prosper can lead to a fall, but IMHO this is not enough to start to "epitomize of evil" (DMG p. 181). This requires much more dedication to a philosophy/ideology of Evil. Such a character might become someone like Noah Bennet from Heroes, but not someone like Azula (Avatar The Last Airbender) or the Emperor from Star Wars.

A fall of a paladin merely means that he can no longer uphold the standards of paladinhood, it does not mean he must or should espouse or an opposite ideology. I can see erosion and relativization of his principles but not totally scrapping them and following the opposite

I don't know if there are any rules for changing the deity a cleric serves, but I think, disillusionment/disappointment about the organization might fit for a character who changes his allegiance from Tyr/Heironeous to Hoar or even Bane(most likely as LN cleric)

I don't know if you are set on actually playing "sadistic, cruel, bloodthirsty conqueror" and if that will fit with the rest of the group, but if you are more interested in the appearance you might want to take a look at the Bone Knight PrC from 5 Nations.

@Arcanist: Why would a paladin enter into an infernal pact? This is one of the few explicitly evil acts. But tricking the paladin into evil seems more plausible than a paladin deliberately becoming evil.

[Arcanist]

@Arcanist: Why would a paladin enter into an infernal pact? This is one of the few explicitly evil acts. But tricking the paladin into evil seems more plausible than a paladin deliberately becoming evil.

Perhaps, like I said, they don't have enough stuff to get the job done and require some additional help where the people from on high just won't cut it.

[Andezzar]

Yeah the paladin might not have the resources for victory otherwise, but I doubt a paladin would even think about using that resource, unless he was corrupted already. And even if he used the minions of hell to ensure his victory, I'm not sure he would necessarily become a Blackguard unless he'd already been fighting for the wrong reasons.

[Thrudd]

Hello Playground, it's me, Darklady! I'm looking for some advice, mostly about how to forge a great 'Dark Knight' out of a Paladin and his fall...

Story and Background

As the tale goes, Alaric, a Knight of Pelor, has always been kind at heart. He was taught and indoctrinated at a monastery when he was young, and was later taken as the squire of a paladin who frequented the joint. Eventually, he was dubbed a Paladin of the Order of Pelor, ordained as a Priest, and allowed to make his own way in the world.

As fate would have it, the young Paladin was taken by surprise and dragged halfway across the world, to a place called Nehwon. After escaping the clutches of foul slavers, and finding himself in the company of a rude but tolerable sorcerer, he followed the road from nowhere, to a city called Lankhmar. Here he discovered a temple to Pelor that had laid abandoned for years.

Taking up the mantle of priest, he reopened the temple, and began to preach. For roughly a month, this went on, until a gang known as the Slayer's Brotherhood began causing problems for him. Chief among them was their tendency to stab the paladin in the gut and demand half of the offerings given by the poor beggars he cared for. Rather than give them the satisfaction, he gave them his word he would close the temple in one week. They gave him three days. He set about saying a temporary goodbye to his flock, swearing to them an oath that he would vanquish the Slayer's Brotherhood and reopen the temple.

My trouble is, I can't figure out why such a righteous man might fall. My vision for the character, and the idea for the campaign, is to become an Evil Overlord, and my personal ambition (mine, not my character's) is to conquer the City of Seven Score Thousand Smokestacks (a.k.a. Lankhmar). He's been nothing but kind to nearly everyone he's met. He's handed out loaves of bread to the beggars that choke the streets. He's healed the sick and injured, and he's preached against the evil god of lies and deceit, Mog.

So, any ideas? What kind of event might cause this kind of man to fall.

Crunch!
Alaric of Trenzalore, is my first level Gestalt Cloistered Cleric/Paladin. So far, I have Power Attack, and Improved Sunder. Gear wise, I'm dirt poor, with nothing but a Dagger, scraps of wood and burlap, my hand carved holy symbol, and a handful of coins to my name.

In theory, Alaric will be a Cloistered Cleric 9/Paladin 9 during the level that he falls, as I'd love to gain access to the bonus Blackguard abilities that come from being a Fallen Paladin.

So, playground, I ask you, what kinds of feats should I take? What sorts of spells, domains, and such. Should I take another Prestige Class rather than straight Cloistered Cleric?

Ultimately, I want my character to fit the image of sadistic, cruel, bloodthirsty conqueror with bespiked armor, a bloody great sword, riding a winged nightmare (Either an actual Nightmare with Wings attached, an Undead flying monster, a Dragon, or an Undead Dragon). My problem is the in between, and how I should plan it out.


His faith could be shaken by repeated betrayals. He may spend a lot of time helping others, but what happens when someone that he helps turns out to be evil and does something terrible? He might start to question his faith at that point. I feel there would have to be more than a single event, but a building up over time of doubt in Pelor's power and "rightness". It is so much easier to kill people you know to be causing trouble, rather than doing the just thing and arresting them and bringing them to trial. It starts off with a grey area...letting someone who was a known murderer (maybe even the murderer of someone you know/love) be killed by your party even though they were helpless and/or surrendering. Turn a blind eye to the destruction of a village of monstrous humanoids who are raiding human villages, even though there were non-combatants there (they did the same, afterall, slaughtering innocent humans). His enemies always seem to have the upper hand and their vile tactics are not restricted by any sense of honor...so he must adapt in order to best serve the power of good. Eventually, he realizes that the only way to really stop the spread of evil and protect the innocent is to control the land with an iron fist. As he attempts to impose stricter law in the area he has control of, the populous become incensed and rebellious rather than grateful for his protection. Soon he begins to lose sympathy for the weaklings who cannot defend themselves from evil, yet resent his laws that keep them safe. The final event which results in his turn to the god of tyranny, or whoever, may be an insurrection by some of the very people he started out protecting. He chooses to crush them with an iron fist, and his act gains the favor of Hextor, his position of power immediately making him an ideal Black Guard. As he becomes further and further divorced from concern for the common people, the devils whispering in his ear inspire him to rule by fear, and adopt more depraved and cruel practices. Now he is finally a champion of Tyranny, and ready to conquer more lands, looking with contempt on the religion of fools and weaklings that he once held dear and determined to eradicate their faith. Of course, this speaks deeply to his own self-loathing, self-hatred, and shame...as deep down he knows he has failed at the task given to him in life, to walk the path of righteousness is a hard path, and he was not strong enough to walk it. Every paladin and cleric of Pelor he sees evokes these feelings of shame and self-loathing, and his only way to deal with that is to destroy them and humiliate them utterly so that he might forget his failure.

[Feilith]

A paladin actually fell in my current group in one of our recent sessions, she walked through a portal which granted her the Dark template ( great for rogues, not so great for paladins). When you pick up the template your alignment "shifts one step, rarely good". So she fell for ceasing to be lawful good. She felt betrayed and didn't believe she had done anything wrong or should have fallen.

In all fairness after some rules lawyering the DM did have the town clerics offer her an atonement at no cost. She didn't take it for RP reasons believing that she shouldn't have fallen in the first place.

The moral of the story, if you can get your DM to slip that template in its not a bad thing for a blackguard to have. Good for sneak attacks and the like, Plus in our campaign it makes you monochrome which is pretty fantastic.

Size and Type: Type and size are unchanged. Dark creatures encountered away from the Plane of Shadow have the extraplanar subtype.

Speed: As base creature, +10 feet to all modes of movement.

Special Qualities: A dark creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following.

Darkvision 60 ft.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect).

Resistance to cold 10.

Superior low-light vision.

Skills: Same as the base creature, plus Hide +8 and Move Silently +6.

Level Adjustment: +1

[Defiant]

Vengeance.

Your paladin did something believed to be good and just... like slaughtering a village of innocents in order to avoid getting them painfully turned into zombies and shackled to such undead servitude (yeah, totally borrowed that from Arthas). However, his paladin buddies and his deity disagreed and cast him out, thereby also causing a fall.

You dare banish me??? I will show you. I will show you that I am capable of greatness.

So basically revenge for being cast out and fallen will lead to a more ill-intentioned rampage.

***

For more inspiration, check out Shakespeare's play "Coriolanus".

[Andezzar]

A paladin actually fell in my current group in one of our recent sessions, she walked through a portal which granted her the Dark template ( great for rogues, not so great for paladins). When you pick up the template your alignment "shifts one step, rarely good". So she fell for ceasing to be lawful good. She felt betrayed and didn't believe she had done anything wrong or should have fallen.Actually the template does not work that way. The text is
Alignment: Usually one step different from the base creature, rarely good.So there is no mandatory shift on acquisition of the template and if the character was human (or any other race from the PHB IIRC) this actually means nothing. What is one step different from Alignment: Any?


The moral of the story, if you can get your DM to slip that template in its not a bad thing for a blackguard to have. Good for sneak attacks and the like, Plus in our campaign it makes you monochrome which is pretty fantastic.The template actually is very dangerous for anyone but high level casters. It gives you the extraplanar subtype and thus makes you subject to dismissal and banishment. Good luck getting back from the Plane of Shadow.

[Feilith]

Originally Posted by ToM p. 181

Alignment: Usually one step different from the base creature, rarely good.

This means the alignment change happens more often than not when you acquire the template.


What is one step different from Alignment: Any?


One step from the base creature's alignment, and if the base creature was good then it will rarely stay good. So as paladin you would fall to LN instead of NG.

If the alignment change were rarely evil, then maybe the DM could rule that "oh you would've changed to LG anyway" and not make the paladin fall. But since it was rarely good the alignment change had to happen.

[Andezzar]

This means the alignment change happens more often than not when you acquire the template.True, but insisting on it, especially on a character that get quantifiable drawbacks from it, seems like a sure way to annoy the player. IMHO it's on par with "Bam, you're captured, your equipment is gone" without any way to influence the outcome.




One step from the base creature's alignment, and if the base creature was good then it will rarely stay good. So as paladin you would fall to LN instead of NG. Could, not necessarily would. Usually in game terms means that almost 50% do not change.

Also the change is applied to a creature not a character. So it is not applied to Sir Killalot, Level X Paladin but to whatever creature that took level in paladin. Thus the alignment is not yet fixed and thus a shift from alignment: Any means nothing.

[Mystia]

Hmm,the reason the only paladin I've ever thought up of fell is kinda cliche, but works I think...
That is, love. Maybe the paladin is in love with a pure and innocent woman, or maybe he just gets attached to the son he adopted and raised as his own. For some reason, he is really affectionate to someone. Then, fate begins to work, the one thing which will shake all the strong beliefs that the character had.
For my paladin, at this point, he was already famous for striking down evil in all of it's shapes and for being a do-gooder and champion of light. Thus, obviously, had lots and lots enemies. For whatever the reason, he has to set once again in a crusade for good, to root out and banish evil from the unholy lands, and to make the world a good place for him and his wife/children/family to live in. They pray for him to have safe travels, and he tells he is going to be alright, for the god watches over us all. And so he sets on the journey, maybe that adventure to kill that evil necromancer, maybe to wipe out a cabal of Asmodeus cultists, who knows, but either way, as he leaves, he is sure that upon his return, he will be greeted warmly by the ones he love. Being as valiant as he is, he succeeds on his holy mission. And comes back home. To find everything he loved the most slaughtered or having suffered from a fate even worse. Maybe both, and to make things real, make it so they even had their souls destroyed. Now we're talking business.
Then you can kinda guess how everything goes. Probably in a fit of unstoppable rage he will murder as cruelly as possible the ones responsible, and then, he will start to question god. To beg for their return, only to have no answer. Then he starts to blame god, did he not pray hard enough, wasn't him his faithful servant all this time? Then why, why didn't he do the only thing he asked of him, which was, to protect what he loved the most? Then after moments exemplified by this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ReligiousRussianRoulette) and this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmiteMeOMightySmiter) trope, he ultimately falls, deciding that such a god did not deserve to be called that way, and did not deserve his devotion, that good was a illusion and all that kind of stuff.
Preeetty straightforward and cliched if you ask me, but well this was the only reason I could think for my paladin to fall back then :smalltongue:

[Medic!]

I've always liked the idea of Pride Go-eth Before the Fall.

In a campaign we played at home one of the major NPCs was a Paladin leader of a vampire-hunting society who'd gotten so bloated up and overinflated that he choked on his own ego time and again.

Alaric could develop a similar sense of inflated self-worth with all the good he does until he snaps at someone questioning him or disobeying his orders (even a good order) and something just pushes him over the brink.

Barely related war-story:
Our NPC paladin met his maker when he returned from campaign with a retinue of lesser guards and allies to find our bad-guy PCs lounging on his throne/altar. With a little goading he decided to "teach us a lesson" and with a little prodding he "won't need any help!" One failed will save against Morality Undone and his ego led to him attacking his own allies as punishment for not obeying him. It was delicious, it was appropriate, and that spell was just the right amount of push.

Needless to say by the time it was done we had a fairly weakened fallen single-classed paladin to deal with as a Cleric of Hextor and an evil Wizard with a penchant for Necrotic spells.

[TheDarkSaint]

I think you need to create a feedback loop.

Alric is a righteous guy. He stands up for the poor, helps the sick and defends the weak. Right on. He does this at great personal sacrifice and cost to himself, (getting stabbed in the gut over and over is no fun, even if you can heal yourself)

Only the most truly noble of people can not feel that they would be owed something after doing that for so long. Almost all of us would start to feel hollow, as if we were giving parts of ourselves away and there wasn't anyone there to nourish our souls, to give unto us. We would start to see things as a tiny bit unfair. We would start to wonder why all these poor people don't help themselves, or become angry at richer folk who weren't helping out.

From that tiny hole of entitlement comes doubt, the antithesis of faith. Pelor makes no promises that your life will be awesome if you help out the poor. He just says you have to and take it on faith that it is a good thing.


And so, the doubt begins to grow. It starts getting fed by anger and frustration as Alric begins to wonder why. It might get worse if the same poor people he is trying to help end up stealing from him or betraying him for some reason.

And from that doubt, the anger, the frustration, Alric probably will react badly someday. He will strike out when he shouldn't and do something that may FEEL right but that isn't. He may take the life of a thug when subduing him and turning him into the police may have been the right thing to do. He is starting to slide in Chaotic behavior, beliving that the law may not be enough, that it is helpless and that he can do better.

At this moment, he falls. The lawful good precepts that he lives by are no longer a moral compass for him. He has two decisions. He can recognize that what he did was wrong and attempt to atone, or feel abandoned by Pelor in a time of crisis.


Since you want him to fall, the selfishness in your Paladin should come to the fore. He might blame Pelor for what happened, that it wasn't his fault, when in fact, it was. He may look at what Pelor wanted as hopelessly naive and untenable, that the god who withholds his grace from someone who wishes to do 'good' things is no god he wants to be associated with.

He has now begun his slide into selfish neutrality. He might even be Chaotic Neutral at this point. He doesn't see himself that way. In his eyes, he still sees himself as a 'good' person. He might start acting as Judge/Jury/Executioner as well, since he see's his own moral and ethical code as superior to those around him.

The next part of the fall is tricky. You have to get to the point of embracing evil. So, the slide has to continue into evil, where he needs to cast off the selfishness of neutrality and become evil.

To get to that point would be a great role playing experiance. Maybe after his first execution of who he believes is 'evil', he finds that he likes it. He likes the kill. It made him feel powerful, like he did when he was a full paladin, blessed by his god. He may not like that feeling, thinking he is above that, that he is impartial. But with every kill, he slides a bit further. Soon, his moral and ethical code would change to that where a insults result in death. Finally, he would abandon his roll as any kind of peacemaker and just look for a reason, any reason to kill someone.

At that point, Hell knows it has him. He would be contacted by a devil who would offer him more power than he could imagine, if he only killed in Hell's name. Thus, a Blackguard is born.

[KnightOfV]

Falling all the way to Blackguard... horrible things has to happen to your character. It is 'easy' to make a Paladin fall... but going from GOOD to BAD is a pretty major chasm.

You could try this: nothing he does matters. All those beggars he fed? He finds out weeks or months later that they starved to death or got sick or got killed anyway. That Pelor Temple he saves from the gang? Something even nastier comes through that he can't stop. A dragon, a lich, whatever and destroys it anyway all while barely noticing it. The temple is your Paladin's whole life. This big bad thing, the temple is just some stupid building to a stupid god. They don't even bother killing the Paladin because he is not worth the effort.

Anyone your Paladin saves, he needs to find out that they die anyway. Any problems he fixes return worse then before. Oh, you saved the village? Good job champion! Whoops, the village is under attack again! Oh you saved us again! We are safe until the next thing. and the next. Good is meaningless, Evil always seems to triumph in the end. The cruel, the wicked, the powerful- they are the ones that can change things and see the world for how it truly is.

There is only one solution- he must turn to the dark side, cast aside his feeble morality, forget about all these fragile creatures he once thought he could save, and DESTROY all the Evil there is in the world. He must become so bad that nothing bad can hope to face him. And to do that, he has to do ANYTHING for power. Something has to step in and offer him real power and real results, at the small cost of the Paladin killing a single innocent. Just one innocent life to save many. Once this happens, it is easy to justify the death of a village, a city, whatever it takes to rule the country and save it from Evil. Remember, it doesn't matter how many innocent lives you have to take. They are too weak, they will die anyway. The only way anyone can survive is if you take the power the dark god is offering you and use it to kill all the evil in the world. So the bad guys don't fear Good? Fine. You will make them fear YOU.

Edit: Darksaint 's idea is pretty awesome, and maybe more plausible. Well played.

[Propagandalf]

How the title should be :smallbiggrin:
Help, I've fallen and can't get up [Paladin to Blackguard Transition]

Aaanyway, I second TheDarkSaint on this one.

Feedbackloop that might not be entirely his fault to begin with, but which is his own decision in the end. Things that restrict him in what he believes to be right (laws, his Code etc.). A killer is to be let loose on a technicality, a murderer escapes because of the byrocracy of the system is so slow. Stuff that a quick sword strike would take care of in an instant and which would really save lifes to begin with. From there a slow escalation (now it's more convenient to just execute the criminals than wait for the inevitably slow trial) and so on.

[Jane_Doe]

I can think of a couple of methods, though they're a spot cliché...

For the first, he's sworn himself to vanquishing an evil force, no? These terrible people who would dare to rob from the poor would seem a sort that the world was better off without - and surely, cleansing the world of such a stain would feel good. Standing there in the blood of the unrighteous, possibly some who could maybe have been taken alive had he tried a little harder, that's something that must feel good, knowing you've done such a service for the world - and the thrill of adrenaline running through you, knowing that any misstep could be your last, surely that was just a reward for doing the work of the holy. He's lived a very peaceful life prior to this, it seems; learning that he enjoys such violent work might well be the sort of... Not entirely wholesome character trait that might lead him astray without conflicting with his prior character. Of course, it's rather unlikely that one such battle would lead him to fall, or that he wouldn't seek atonement afterwards - but this is just the start of his journey, no? That brotherhood is hardly the only group that might prey on Pelor's servants, and each time he goes to vanquish more villains (first those that harass his own temple, then those he hears of further away), the more he loses himself in the thrill of battle, until eventually he takes things too far - and then decides he really preferred the fighting to the alms-dealing anyway.

Alternately, this world is filled with the sick and the poor - far more than just his little temple can save. So after dealing with these villains, he finds that they had stolen far more wealth than he had previously realized, and had a much more fearsome reputation. So, being the pious and holy man he is, he uses this newfound respect and wealth to further the church, and begin to make things truly better for those under his care. In the days to come, Lankhmar comes to be known as a place without poor, where even the lowest of society is cared for and lifted up as he establishes more churches, and Pelor's name is on every lip. But things don't last, of course - the money runs out, the Slayer's Brotherhood is forgotten, and people flit to other gods who promise more relevant rewards. Things grow to become worse than ever for those under his care - though he, himself, is largely insulated from these problems. Desperate, he seeks to restore people's attention to Pelor in any way he can, eventually turning towards dangerous stunts (adventuring) to draw money and faith back towards HIS church. And this works, for a time, and he expands again, before money and eyes wander elsewhere once more. Once again, he tries everything to make people listen to him again, and once more he succeeds. But each time, he cares less and less about Pelor and the people he is supposed to care for, and more and more about -succeeding-, of making people listen to him, and the respect and fame that comes with it. Near the end (of his paladinhood), he brashly proclaims that he will make EVERYONE follow Pelor, no matter what the cost, and that he will bring paradise to this world. Of course, this all goes horribly wrong as he chooses some of the worst possible ways to do so, and eventually turns towards conquering the world and making people bow to his church by force - still utterly convinced that he is doing Pelor's work (despite falling), even if he, himself, is utterly unconcerned by what Pelor teaches. Basically, under this version, his traits of kindness and mercy lead him to seeking money and fame to help those around him, only for him to become overly reliant on such things to help, and become obsessed with seeking more - eventually forgetting (largely) why he was seeking these things in the first place.

[Taveena]

I realised as I typed this that it was, uh... very Anakin Skywalker-y, but here goes anyway...

What if someone he cared about died? In a way that Pelor is unable or unwilling to undo. Presumably it's... less an emotional attachment, given how righteous he is, and more a fact of necessity. A political figure who was giving him the backing he needed to keep helping the poor, or some kind of mentor whose tutelage hadn't been finished.

You could always bring them back, but... well, Necromancy is [Evil]. But for that, it's WORTH falling. The good of the people is more important than his ability to summon a fancy horse.

And once you've done that, well... the ends justify the means, after all. Torture the criminal to save the lives. And then to save a single life. And then, just because of his attempts.

It's not quite a slippery slope, because he COULD pick himself back up. But as he's already stopped being a Paladin, it feels like he's invested too much. His PRIDE is at stake. And to atone and undo what's been done... surely, taking all that away is more evil than arbitrary decrees of a so-called god.

[Andezzar]

What if someone he cared about died? In a way that Pelor is unable or unwilling to undo.The problem is that aside from GM Fiat, Pelor does not have a choice. The cleric chooses his spells per day. If raise dead, resurrection or true resurrection is on that list, he can use it on the loved one. The only one who does get a choice is the subject of the spell. A cleric who can cast one of those spells would know this.


You could always bring them back, but... well, Necromancy is [Evil].Neither of the three aforementioned spells is [Evil], they all are Conjuration(Healing). AFAIK there are no Necromancy spells that would bring people back.

BTW if the Paladin manages to become a Blackguard, why not worship Pelor, the Burning Hate (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate).

[Flickerdart]

Some build advice - make sure you're Paladin 11, so you can burn up all those levels for Blackguard. After Paladin 1/Blackguard 10, go into Nar Demonbinder (you qualify through your Blackguard casting) to get the power to bind yourself a sweet demon mount.

[kreenlover]

Ok, I stopped reading other people's advice about halfway down the page. However, I think that most of them are right.

You start with the good that you do being undone. The beggars you fed all die while you have to close the Temple. Etc etc.

Next, you get no reward. You fight for the good guys, stand up for the little guy time and time again, and you get nothing back.

Next, take something that you care for. Have it be threatened, mercilessly.

Take the bad guys. They always seem to win because of no moral code. They get cooler powers (and cookies!) because they are on the Dark Side.

To beat the bad guys it is always a slow painful slog. Everything that you do they seem to have a counter for. And, the worst part is that you can see easy ways out. If you just followed their path, if you were not constrained by your code you could save far more people.

Then, go to the next phase. You are busy killing the bad guys. Then, you see that some of them aren't that bad at all. They are working towards noble ends. They are doing good deeds. They have families for gods sake! Please don't kill them!
This shakes your beliefs to the core: "I am I doing the right thing? Is this where I want to go with my life?"

Have the constant encounters with evil start to erode your beliefs in the principles of your life. Your life starts to lose meaning. What have you devoted yourself to all this time? A sham?

[Andezzar]

Some build advice - make sure you're Paladin 11, so you can burn up all those levels for Blackguard.I always wondered if this is better than getting the extra goodies for having Paladin levels.


After Paladin 1/Blackguard 10, go into Nar Demonbinder (you qualify through your Blackguard casting) to get the power to bind yourself a sweet demon mount.I'm not sure this is a good idea. Now you need CHA and WIS for casting. At least 14 in WIS, to qualify and 18 in CHA to get full casting.

[Flickerdart]

I always wondered if this is better than getting the extra goodies for having Paladin levels.

I'm not sure this is a good idea. Now you need CHA and WIS for casting. At least 14 in WIS, to qualify and 18 in CHA to get full casting.
As a Paladin you'll want to have okay Charisma to start with. Say, 14 Charisma and 10 Wisdom. Then get +4 items for each (total: 32,000gp, really not a lot) and you're golden.

[dantiesilva]

I do not know if I have been beat to this yet but perhaps a suggestion I nay put in before the fall. Go cloistered cleric/Paladin//Rogue//Shadowbane inquisitor. Now when you fall you do not lose any of your shadowbane inquistor abilities (decent smite and advances SA as well as a few other things, drops Spells though). Best part of all Shadowbane inquisitor levels count as paladin levels so you have a win win scensrio as now you don't have those pesky paladin levels and can turn them into Blackguard without losing to much. Or keep them for the bonuses, your call.

As for the fall as I began reading from Mystia, and I personal almost did myself until I had to change my character around for mechanics purposes, love. In my campign I am playing in my Cleric of St. Cruburt "Originally Pelor" was trained from the age of ten to 15 with two twin sisters. One of the twins and him fell in love. Latter on in the game (Played it before) we find out she and her sister became a vampire. When his allies went to attack her and kill her he got in the way defending her as he still loved her no matter what she was.

Love is a powerful driving force, it is even the main reason why Anikin fell in Starwars. ( Yes I know I am bad with names sorry) I could see your character falling for someone, maybe not even meaning to, the brotherhood gets her and kills her. You now go on a revenge spree. After avenging her you slowly start to see the corruption in the world and think it is your job to fix it ( Starting the fall). As you continue to try to save the world and make sure what happened to you does not happen to others, you slowly become more controlling of your flock and what they can or can not do. Eventually becoming LE.

Hope this helps you.

[erikun]

I'm pretty sure Complete Divine has a CG prestige class that is supposed to be a fallen paladin equilivant, with specific wording on how it interacts with ex-paladins. Sadly, I'm AFB at the moment and so can't check on the details. It might make more sense, in your case, for the paladin to fall towards chaotic (using sneaky methods to fight bandits and re-open his church) rather than towards evil.

Also:

Some build advice - make sure you're Paladin 11, so you can burn up all those levels for Blackguard. After Paladin 1/Blackguard 10, go into Nar Demonbinder (you qualify through your Blackguard casting) to get the power to bind yourself a sweet demon mount.
Reading over the Blackguard entry again, it sounds like you need to take a level of Blackguard before you can exchange levels. As such, you'd need to be Paladin 11/Blackguard 1 and transfer it over into Paladin 2/Blackguard 10.