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The Rose Dragon
2013-07-20, 12:32 PM
There are a large number of systems out there, with their own takes on randomizing the outcomes of actions. However, when it comes to core mechanics, there appears to be a number of randomizer types far fewer than the number of systems I have. I thought I'd compile them in a list, and see what else is out there.

1) Flat die / basic bell curve: whether it is the d20 of OGL-based games, the d10 of Unisystem, the 3d6 of GURPS or the Fudge dice of FATE, the basics are the same. Roll the same die or dice for actions, add modifiers, compare to number. Damage is usually an exception and can use different dice, but not always (see Mutants & Masterminds).

2) Success-based dice pool: the most common dice pool system I know of, roll a number of dice based on your traits, and count the ones that come up certain numbers (usually higher than a set number, but not always) as successes. The more successes you have, the better you are. Probably the most popular example is World of Darkness in either iteration.

3) Roll-and-keep dice pool: name taken from Legend of the Five Rings, the dice pool is formed similarly to success-based systems, but you add the numbers that come up instead of counting successes. Some systems allow you to keep all your dice, while some require keeping a smaller number (while they don't contain large pools of the same die often, I consider Savage Worlds and Cortex to be in this category).

4) Set-based dice pool: found in Wild Talents, Weapons of the Gods and Legends of the Wulin, this dice pool system requires creating sets of matching dice that come up with the same number. Generally, the larger the set the better, and the players have some ability in modifying their dice pools to get sets.

5) Dice-pool management system: a generally meta-narrative system found in games like Anima Prime, Don't Rest Your Head and Mythender, this system involves forming dice pools through actions and moving them between different pools, which serve different purposes. Generally, non-conflict scenes serve only to recover resources lost in conflict.

6) Yin-yang dice: found only in Qin: the Warring States to my knowledge, the basics are the same as a bell curve system, but the probability spread is not a bell curve and favors lower numbers over higher ones, and whether the yin die or the yang die is higher can make a difference.

7) Non-dice randomizers: usually card-based, but other examples, such as Dread's Jenga tower, exist. Details vary wildly.

8) Diceless systems: technically not a randomizer system, I included diceless systems here for completion. Each character has a number of resources based on their stats, and victory is determined by how much of those resources they are willing to risk, with no random elements involved.

Are there any categories I have missed, or any anomalies like the yin-yang dice system? Feel free to pitch in.

Tengu_temp
2013-07-20, 01:04 PM
Earthdawn, Deadlands and Serenity have a system where you roll a different number of different dice depending on your stat/skill, add the results up and compare to a static difficulty or an opposed roll. For example, if your stat+skill in Earthdawn is 5 then you roll a d8, and if it's 10 you roll d10+d6.

Warhammer, Call of Cthulhu, Dark Heresy and many other games have a system where you always roll a d100 and you need to roll below your stat (+ modifiers) to succeed. It's called the D100 system.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-07-20, 03:29 PM
Warhammer 3E and Star Wars Edge of the Empire are sorta dice pool systems, but they're Dice Pool 2.0, giving extra information out on the roll.

Also, the set-based dice pool engine is more commonly known as Greg Stolze's One Roll Engine (ORE). :smallsmile:

Arbane
2013-07-20, 04:39 PM
Don't forget card-based systems like SAGA or Castle Falkenstein.

Grinner
2013-07-20, 05:13 PM
Don't forget card-based systems like SAGA or Castle Falkenstein.

Or diceless systems, like those in Nobilis and Amber.

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-20, 05:20 PM
Also, the set-based dice pool engine is more commonly known as Greg Stolze's One Roll Engine (ORE). :smallsmile:

ORE is not the only example of set-based dice pools, and the name is not as iconic or representative of the category as L5R's roll & keep, which is why I did not use the name.

erikun
2013-07-20, 06:50 PM
Alright, let's see what systems I have that involve different dice mechanics. This seems to be getting rather long, so I'll break up the systems with spoilers.

Eclipse Phase (d% Roll-Under)
Eclipse Phase uses a d% Roll-Under mechanic. What this means is that the character's skill ranks is the target number for a challenge, and players roll a d100 to see if they succeed. Rolling equal to or below the target number is a success, rolling above is a failure. Bonuses and penalities are applied directly to the skill rank, improving it (if greater chance of success) or decreasing it (if less chance of success).

The unique part of Eclipse Phase is that a "critical" happens whenever the dice result comes up doubles: 00, 11, 22, and so on. Whether it's a critical success or critical failure depends on if the dice roll itself is a success or a failure, thus better skill means more likely to critically succeed as well.

RuneQuest 6 (d% Roll-Under)
RuneQuest, from what I've seen, also uses the d% Roll-Under mechanic, in much the same situation. The difference here is how RuneQuest handles leveling up their skills.

HeroQuest (d20 Roll-Under)
HeroQuest uses a d20 Roll-Under mechanic, much similar to the above. The difference is that you only get four results from the roll: Critical (roll 1), Success (roll equal to or below skill level), Failure (roll above skill level), and Fumble (roll 20). The difference her is that for skill levels above 20, the character ends up getting what are known as Masteries, so that the next rank after 20 is 1m, and then 2m, and so on. Masteries bump the result into your favor, so that a roll of 2m against 17 will likely result in Failure vs. Success, but the Mastery turns this into Success vs. Success.

You are also awarded degrees of success, depending on how much you beat (or lost by) the roll. Success vs. Success would only give a marginal victory or marginal loss, depending on who rolled the low roll. On the other hand, a Critical vs. Failure would result in a major victory, likely granting bonuses that even last past the challenge being rolled.

Actually, this is bringing up some important points. There is a difference between rolling against a target number (like in Eclipse Phase, RuneQuest, and D&D) and rolling against another roll (like HeroQuest). The whole marginal/major victory only works in HeroQuest because there is an opposed roll to compared it to, and it wouldn't work as well if the character was just given a single target number to roll against.

The other thing to consider is extended challenges. Some game systems, such as World of Darkness and HeroQuest, have some situations where a character will need to amass a certain number of success within a number of rounds, or before an opponent does so. This only really works if a character can get more than one success per "turn", as can be seen in the problems with D&D4e skill challenges in compared to the more familiar WoD extended challenges. In fact, HeroQuest's extended challenges wouldn't work at all if you changed it into a D&D "roll d20+bonuses vs DC" system, despite the two sharing many similarities.

Anyways, on to other systems.

Feng Shui (Yin-Yang d6)
While I'm not too familiar with the system, the basic roll is your skill level, plus one d6, minus one other d6. The two dice are color-coded, so as to determine which is which before rolling. This seems similar to your Yin-yang example found in Qin.

Burning Wheel and related systems (d6 Dice Pool)
Burning Wheel is a d6 dice pool system, similar to Shadowrun and World of Darkness. The difference is that skills and dice pool also have a Shade, along with the number of dice. Black Shade (B) is normal, and means that rolls of 4-6 are successes on dice. Grey Shade (G) means that 3-6 on a die is a success, and White Shade (W) means that 2-6 is a success.

As such, a character can improve a skill in two different ways. They can increase the ranks in a skill, or improve the shade of a skill. Of course, improving the shade is massively difficult and generally magical in nature, so you should not expect it to happen regularly, if at all.

I'd like to point out at this point that Burning Wheel isn't the only system to use changing target values on dice in a dice pool system. The old World of Darkness system generally set the target number (on a d10) to the opponent's skill level, meaning that successes were easier against some targets than others.

Iron Claw / Jade Claw (Multi-Dice Dice Pool)
Iron Claw's system can be a bit odd to explain.

When determining what to roll for a skill, you look at what contributes bonuses to that skill. A character's race can give a bonus, such as if they are naturally stealthy or good at climbing. A character's job can give a bonus, such as burglars increasing stealth and soldiers increasing sword skills. And a character can increase the skill directly.

The lowest bonus something can give a skill is a d4. From there, it increases to a d6, then d8, then d10, and finally d12. After that, the bonus gives d12+d4, meaning it gives two dice to the skill. Skills cap at around 5d12 for very high-level characters.

Skill bonuses are not added up, but rather compared to an opposing roll. The highest rolled number of the character is compared to the highest rolled number of the opponent, with the higher number giving a success. Next, the second-highest rolled number on each side are compared, giving another success to the higher number. This continues on until there are no more dice, with "free" successes being given if one character has spare dice. The successes for each side are cancelled out, and any remaining successes are counted for the effect.

Example:
Let's say we have a Raccoon (good with Stealth) Hunter (good with Stealth) turned Bandit (good with Stealth) who is also trained in Stealth, trying to sneak past a Bodyguard (good with Observation) trained in Observation. Let's give our Bandit d4 in all skills, and the Bodyguard d10.

The Bandit rolls 1, 3, 2, 4 while the Bodyguard rolls 9, 3. The Bodyguard's 9 is compared to the Bandit's 4, for success for the Bodyguard. The Bodyguard's 3 is compared to the Bandit's 3, for a tie. The other two Bandit rolls (2, 1) don't have a die to compare to, so are two successes for the Bandit. The end result is 2 successes for the Bandit vs 1 success for the Bodyguard, or just one success overall for the Bandit

Of course, this highlights one of the big problems with the Iron Claw system. However, it's the only system I'm familiar with which uses a changing die for an increased expertise in a skill, which is why I include it.

I should also point out that Iron Claw is not the only system which has players roll a dice pool and then compare values on individual dice to the opposition. As such, I'm sure that there are others which have you roll, say, 5d6 and then compare the number on each die one-at-a-time with the dice in your opponent's roll.

TuggyNE
2013-07-20, 08:15 PM
Feng Shui (Yin-Yang d6)
While I'm not too familiar with the system, the basic roll is your skill level, plus one d6, minus one other d6. The two dice are color-coded, so as to determine which is which before rolling. This seems similar to your Yin-yang example found in Qin.

A quirk of this is that, while you would think the results would have an unusual probability pattern, it's actually the same as 2d6 (http://anydice.com/program/26c9/graph), just offset by a fixed number (7, or the maximum of 1d6 + the minimum of 1d6). As you can see, this extends to essentially any pair of dice; the offset is always the minimum of the second added die from the additive version + the maximum of the subtracted die from the subtractive version.

Without knowing what other quirks Qin adds to avoid this, I can't be sure how it comes out. (Always subtracting whichever die is smallest would have a different result, of course.)

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-20, 08:19 PM
One: in many cases, you do subtract the smaller die from the larger one. In some cases, where an action is strongly yin or strongly yang, you subtract either the yin or the yang die from the other, to a minimum of zero. It is impossible to get a negative result.

Two: if the dice come up the same, you use the number on the dice instead of zero. Two zeroes are a critical failure, whereas two of any other number is a critical success (though it isn't an automatic success).

Beleriphon
2013-07-20, 08:21 PM
4) Set-based dice pool: found in Wild Talents, Weapons of the Gods and Legends of the Wulin, this dice pool system requires creating sets of matching dice that come up with the same number. Generally, the larger the set the better, and the players have some ability in modifying their dice pools to get sets.

Would the Yahtzee method be here? There are a few systems that include using the Yahtzee style poker hands to count success.

Emmerask
2013-07-20, 08:57 PM
Dark Eye

Each skill has 3 attributes associated to it and the value.
you roll a d20 for each attribute, if you roll above the attribute you subtract that from the skill value.
the remaining value is your success.

Its fairly standard except that you use 3 d20 which is rare maybe even unique?

TuggyNE
2013-07-20, 09:23 PM
One: in many cases, you do subtract the smaller die from the larger one. In some cases, where an action is strongly yin or strongly yang, you subtract either the yin or the yang die from the other, to a minimum of zero. It is impossible to get a negative result.

Two: if the dice come up the same, you use the number on the dice instead of zero. Two zeroes are a critical failure, whereas two of any other number is a critical success (though it isn't an automatic success).

Interesting. So basically this (http://anydice.com/program/26cb/graph)?

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-20, 09:28 PM
With d10s, and yin or yang actions having different spreads. There is also the art of yin and yang, which allows for manipulating the dice. But basically, that's what the spread looks like.

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-07-20, 09:34 PM
A quirk of this is that, while you would think the results would have an unusual probability pattern, it's actually the same as 2d6 (http://anydice.com/program/26c9/graph), just offset by a fixed number (7, or the maximum of 1d6 + the minimum of 1d6). As you can see, this extends to essentially any pair of dice; the offset is always the minimum of the second added die from the additive version + the maximum of the subtracted die from the subtractive version.

Without knowing what other quirks Qin adds to avoid this, I can't be sure how it comes out. (Always subtracting whichever die is smallest would have a different result, of course.)
Which is actually also very similar, generally, to FATE. (In fact, d6-d6 + skill is a common FATE replacement.)

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-20, 09:44 PM
FATE is actually a very good example of how dice systems that look wildly different can operate on the same principle, as Fudge dice are functionally no different than any other basic bell curve system, and only marginally different from flat die systems.

Similarly for Savage Worlds (including the aforementioned Deadlands), which is basically a roll & keep dice pool system, even though the pool is much smaller than most dice pool systems, and the size of the dice instead of the pool is the main variable.

Arbane
2013-07-21, 12:47 PM
Silhouette System: Roll a pool of (skill rank)d6, take the highest. Each 6 beyond the first adds +1. Add (stat) which usually ranges from -2 to +3.

Nice and quick, but rather swingy, and a very narrow range. And a +/- 1 is a BIG DEAL.

Knaight
2013-07-21, 01:40 PM
Interesting. So basically this (http://anydice.com/program/26cb/graph)?

Almost, but there is also the matter of doubles, which just count as the number rolled in Qin. It's a weird system.

Radar
2013-07-21, 02:18 PM
1) Flat die / basic bell curve: (...)
Nitpick: single die roll gives flat probability distribution (each possible outcome is equaly probable) - not a bell curve, which is a limit distributions of a sum of many independent rolls regardles of the singular roll distribution.

That being said, I'm not sure if exploading dice require an additional subcategory or not. Technically it can be seen as a single roll with an unbound distribution.

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-21, 02:31 PM
Nitpick: single die roll gives flat probability distribution (each possible outcome is equaly probable) - not a bell curve, which is a limit distributions of a sum of many independent rolls regardles of the singular roll distribution.

I am aware of the difference in probability distribution, which is why I put both flat die and basic bell curve in the category name. The important thing is the die or dice rolled remain the same for the majority of actions, instead of rolling different dice pools depending on the action and the character's stats.

Exploding dice are a modification on other categories, rather than their own category, since they can work with both dice pools and the first category. I can put them in the first post as an example of how such mods can change the overall system without meaningfully altering which category the underlying dice mechanics are in.

Erasmas
2013-07-21, 02:37 PM
This actually seems like as good as a place as any to toss this out there. I will be running a TRON tabletop in the (somewhat near) future and have really wanted to set up a system that works off of binary, in order to help better capture and remind the players that they are within a computer.

What I have so far is that everyone uses d2's, which will be plastic 'chips' with a 0 on one side and a 1 on the other. You flip the "dice" onto the table and then put them into a row based on how they landed in order from right to left. You then calculate what that translates into in binary and compare the result against either an opposed "roll" or a set difficulty rating (not that different from many of the other systems already named here).

In order to capture the fluidity of action and the ability to multitask during fact-paced scenes, I wanted the players to be able to do more than the standardized 'move and attack' break-down that many games I have played tend to incorporate. The idea would be that everything is a 'skill' of the same level, not separated into main abilities and secondary skills (for example Strength and Jump would both be in the same category, as opposed to the latter being based off of the former in some way). You would then combine a number of 'skills' to perform any action - if you want to flip over the head of Lackey Program #2, while stealing the baton on his hip, and also hurl your disc as an attack on Lackey Program #4... then you are going to use Jump/Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand/Whatever, and Attack (Identity Disc).

Now, the real problem with a system based on binary rears its ugly head. Each 'blip' or ability point just over doubles the possible generated total of all the previous 'blips', causing the range of outcomes to blow out of proportion very quickly. A character with only 1 blip can either generate a result of 0 or 1, while a person with 5 blips can generate anything between 0 and 31! My thought was that instead of adding skills together, as in other systems, that you would make the one roll as an average between all of the skills involved in a particular action. For example, in the scenario listed above - the character has a Jump/Acrobatics score of 3, a Sleight of Hand/Whatever score of 2, and an Attack (Identity Disc) score of 4. So... (3+2+4)/3=3... leaving that character to roll 3 dice for that whole action.

This is very much still in its fledgling stage and there is still a lot of kinks to work out with it. So any input would be very much appreciated!

Radar
2013-07-21, 02:40 PM
I am aware of the difference in probability distribution, which is why I put both flat die and basic bell curve in the category name. The important thing is the die or dice rolled remain the same for the majority of actions, instead of rolling different dice pools depending on the action and the character's stats.
*Puts 2 and 2 together*
Ok, now I think I understood the intent of this category. Sorry for the nitpicking. :smallsmile:

Gadora
2013-07-21, 02:43 PM
There's also d6 Star Wars and its offspring, with a dice pool of six siders that looks for a total, rather than for successes. Not sure if the single exploding die include in every roll is worth mentioning, but it's there.

The Rose Dragon
2013-07-21, 02:47 PM
There's also d6 Star Wars and its offspring, with a dice pool of six siders that looks for a total, rather than for successes. Not sure if the single exploding die include in every roll is worth mentioning, but it's there.

Category three, under the name of roll & keep dice pool.

Gadora
2013-07-21, 02:54 PM
Category three, under the name of roll & keep dice pool.

Whoops, I completely misread that. Sorry. :smallredface:

Vknight
2013-07-21, 03:28 PM
Lets See we got

Singular Die
1-Die + you can spend things to increase roll

Roll Unders/Above
3d6 Roll Under/Above
d% Roll Under/Above
d20 Roll Under/Above

One-Roll; The Best Roll Engine
Declare then Roll systems called One-Roll Engine, with the largest number of dice in a pool being the highest face value on the dice

D20 and Other Things
1d# + #1 + #2 + #3 = #4; Aka things like D20

Cards & Dice
Card + Dice games

Compare & Contrast
Roll Under/Above and Compare

Lets Hit the Bar
Die poll and you get hit/success/positive for every die whose face value is greater then a set number

MAID
Roll #d6 * Stat result systems

Ironclaw/Jadeclaw/Supernatural RPG
Roll above a set number and better skill means you have a die with more faces or more dice. The set number ones can either be like the Hit/Success die systems after that or more like the d20 systems or more like the Comparing systems. Roll a 4 is success. Every 4 or better is added on every 3 or less is subtracted. Best result on dice is compared to opponents best result so a guy who gets 11 on a d12 vs a guy who is trying rolling a d8 the d8 has now lost unless the dice explode
Exploding dice systems which are a variant for all of the above or can be its own system, generally using the Compare or Hit/Success style of results

FUDGE Die
Your skill is a set value. You can spend a point for a +2 or reroll
You roll 4 dice with 2 sides have +1, 2 sides have -1, and 2 sides having no number(+/-0)

Roll One and Subtract
You roll a die+stat then roll another die of the same value and subtract its total. It it reduces the result too 0 or below the action fails. +/- Modifiers

One-Roll Shifting Values
Your actions shift or negate or lower the opponents die pools rather then a more conventional combat with HP etc. Can still be used for fights. Variant of One Roll

Rest Your Weary Head
1 Base Die Pool + 2 to 3 other die pools
Roll Under or Above as base system. But after a roll is complete you compare each die pool and see which one failed the most, and you take a consequence or positive depending on which die poll that is

TuggyNE
2013-07-21, 11:18 PM
Almost, but there is also the matter of doubles, which just count as the number rolled in Qin. It's a weird system.

Yes, I included that in the calculations.

erikun
2013-07-22, 12:18 AM
What I have so far is that everyone uses d2's, which will be plastic 'chips' with a 0 on one side and a 1 on the other. You flip the "dice" onto the table and then put them into a row based on how they landed in order from right to left. You then calculate what that translates into in binary and compare the result against either an opposed "roll" or a set difficulty rating (not that different from many of the other systems already named here).
This would just be a standard flat distribution curve. There's no functional difference between 4 chips organized this way (0000 to 1111) and a 1d16 die roll (1-16).

Drachasor
2013-07-22, 05:20 AM
I am working on a RPG system and initially had the following system:

Roll Attributes (dice), add modifiers (fixed numbers -- a skill would be an example).

In D&D terms this would be subtracted from the HP of whatever you were trying to overcome. Some things, like creatures, would have temporary HP that refreshed every round representing defense. No "to hit" rolls, everything you do does something, even if it doesn't do much -- so a crappy roll can still help your buddies.

However, I somewhat feel temp HP that refreshes every round, while having a nice degree of granularity, has a bit of a handling problem. Constantly having to deal with temp HP adds a bit of subtraction every round your defenses are breached. Not sure it is a good way to go.

So I was considering something similar, where attributes would still be dice (multiple). Defense that refreshes would be be pips. When you attack/use a skill, you cancel out one pip per die, removing the highest die roll first (by default). A max die roll would remove two pips. The remaining dice are added together for damage. Modifiers would probably improve die results (so a +1 on a 3d6 with a roll of 3, 4, 6 against 2 pips of defense would do 9 damage (3+1 + 4+1), against 3 pips it would just do 4 damage.

I think that's probably simpler to run. Gonna have to get something together for my group to test out.


I have decided, generally, that binary success/failure is a bad mechanic. It makes things too swingy and makes bonuses too significant. It makes it hard to balance bell curve systems, and problems with non-bell-curves are well known. So I want to make a system that just flat-out eliminates that as much as possible.

Iron Penguin
2013-07-22, 06:53 AM
I am working on a RPG system and initially had the following system:

Roll Attributes (dice), add modifiers (fixed numbers -- a skill would be an example).

In D&D terms this would be subtracted from the HP of whatever you were trying to overcome. Some things, like creatures, would have temporary HP that refreshed every round representing defense. No "to hit" rolls, everything you do does something, even if it doesn't do much -- so a crappy roll can still help your buddies.

However, I somewhat feel temp HP that refreshes every round, while having a nice degree of granularity, has a bit of a handling problem. Constantly having to deal with temp HP adds a bit of subtraction every round your defenses are breached. Not sure it is a good way to go.

I like the sound of this system - it allows you to have combats in which you wear your enemy's defences down, then someone strikes a telling blow which does some real damage. It would work well in contests between multiple PCs and one massive enemy (e.g. slaying a dragon, beseiging a castle, charming a powerful noble, infiltrating an enemy organisation) because, provided the wound/stress/whatever track was relatively short it would allow you to wear down powerful enemies through superior numbers without getting frustrated when your attacks literally do nothing because you keep failing your "to hit" roll.

The only problem is that if you fail to penetrate the enemy's defences in 1 round, you've achieved literally nothing, even though you may have hit several times, which could get very frustrating. Something like momentum or fatigue might help - some way of reducing the enemy's temporary defence pool so that when it refreshes, it's lower, giving you a chance to strike (this could also be done with magic, or psionic effects, or using posioned weapons, sneak attacks, etc etc etc...). Or give characters access to more powerful attacks which lower their temporary defence pool for a round (a bit like in Exalted, but better). That gives you the option of trying something more risky that could do more damage, which always adds a strategic element and allows players to pick their moment to do something heroic. Conversely, having enemies hit players but fail to wound them is good, as long as a wound is a relatively serious thnig (or players can't take many of them before being seriously injured/impaired/etc). It adds tension ("I can't get hit again - my defences are down!") without making combat into a war of endless attrition ("OK, you hit the dragon - 26 damage - that means it now has 2048 HP").

I imagine you'd keep track of your temporary defences using poker chips or glass beads or some other sort of token, plus a track on your character sheet (e.g. a row of boxes you can put the chips on top of) that shows your current maximum value. You could use tokens of a second colour to represent temporary penalties that stop you refreshing your full defence pool (e.g. red chips at the right-hand end of the track). OK, this could get slow with lots of comabatants, but if less important enemies (minions/extras/whatever) die if you do any real damage (i.e. actually penetrate their defence), that would give your game a cinematic, heroic feel, while making PCs still fear overwhelming enemy numbers. Tracking their defence would then just be like tracking HP.


So I was considering something similar, where attributes would still be dice (multiple). Defense that refreshes would be be pips. When you attack/use a skill, you cancel out one pip per die, removing the highest die roll first (by default). A max die roll would remove two pips. The remaining dice are added together for damage. Modifiers would probably improve die results (so a +1 on a 3d6 with a roll of 3, 4, 6 against 2 pips of defense would do 9 damage (3+1 + 4+1), against 3 pips it would just do 4 damage.

I think that's probably simpler to run. Gonna have to get something together for my group to test out.

Given that I still don't understand it, having read it five times, either my coffee still hasn't kicked in or this system isn't that simple to understand.

obryn
2013-07-22, 09:41 AM
I haven't seen Savage Worlds mentioned yet. It's a weird hybrid, but it's pretty much a dice pool system with 2 dice of varying sizes, where you only need 1 success.

For actions, you (and PC-grade NPCs) roll 2 dice - one for your skill, which ranges from a d4 to a d12, and 1d6. Any modifiers (like -2 for being untrained, or situational +/-1's) apply to both dice in full. (Mooks and unimportant NPCs don't get the extra d6.)

Any die that shows its maximum uses a keep-and-add system, like in Earthdawn. Snake eyes is an automatic failure.

Interestingly, your two dice aren't added together, you just keep the better of the two. You compare the highest result against a difficulty number - often 4 for most common tasks. For every 4 points by which you exceed your difficulty number, you get a "boost" for a better result.

(Savage Worlds also uses cards for initiative and chases, which is awesome, but neither here nor there.)

-O

Knaight
2013-07-22, 12:05 PM
I haven't seen Savage Worlds mentioned yet. It's a weird hybrid, but it's pretty much a dice pool system with 2 dice of varying sizes, where you only need 1 success.

Savage Worlds is pretty standard roll and keep with exploding dice.

jedipilot24
2013-07-22, 12:13 PM
Can't believe anyone hasn't mentioned it yet:

Alternity: roll 1d20 then add or subtract one or more situation die depending on how easy or hard the situation or task is. A situation die can be a d20, d12, d8, d6, d4, or d0. Alternity is unique both in that it doesn't use a d10 and that it shoots for low numbers, so you actually want negative modifiers.

obryn
2013-07-22, 12:28 PM
Savage Worlds is pretty standard roll and keep with exploding dice.
I didn't find it to be so, with how the two dice are treated completely separately. That's the unusual element.

-O

Drachasor
2013-07-22, 11:36 PM
I like the sound of this system - it allows you to have combats in which you wear your enemy's defences down, then someone strikes a telling blow which does some real damage. It would work well in contests between multiple PCs and one massive enemy (e.g. slaying a dragon, beseiging a castle, charming a powerful noble, infiltrating an enemy organisation) because, provided the wound/stress/whatever track was relatively short it would allow you to wear down powerful enemies through superior numbers without getting frustrated when your attacks literally do nothing because you keep failing your "to hit" roll.

Yup, that's the idea.


The only problem is that if you fail to penetrate the enemy's defences in 1 round, you've achieved literally nothing, even though you may have hit several times, which could get very frustrating. Something like momentum or fatigue might help - some way of reducing the enemy's temporary defence pool so that when it refreshes, it's lower, giving you a chance to strike (this could also be done with magic, or psionic effects, or using posioned weapons, sneak attacks, etc etc etc...). Or give characters access to more powerful attacks which lower their temporary defence pool for a round (a bit like in Exalted, but better). That gives you the option of trying something more risky that could do more damage, which always adds a strategic element and allows players to pick their moment to do something heroic. Conversely, having enemies hit players but fail to wound them is good, as long as a wound is a relatively serious thnig (or players can't take many of them before being seriously injured/impaired/etc). It adds tension ("I can't get hit again - my defences are down!") without making combat into a war of endless attrition ("OK, you hit the dragon - 26 damage - that means it now has 2048 HP").

Well, the idea was that the damage you did in a round would be enough to overwhelm the defenses of someone of equal skill -- on average. So you'd expect some HP damage each round. I had Defense about 1/3 as strong as Offense, but you could devote some Offense to Defense if you wanted. HP would represent more long-term endurance and whatnot like it does (somewhat) in D&D.


I imagine you'd keep track of your temporary defences using poker chips or glass beads or some other sort of token, plus a track on your character sheet (e.g. a row of boxes you can put the chips on top of) that shows your current maximum value. You could use tokens of a second colour to represent temporary penalties that stop you refreshing your full defence pool (e.g. red chips at the right-hand end of the track). OK, this could get slow with lots of comabatants, but if less important enemies (minions/extras/whatever) die if you do any real damage (i.e. actually penetrate their defence), that would give your game a cinematic, heroic feel, while making PCs still fear overwhelming enemy numbers. Tracking their defence would then just be like tracking HP.

If you use dice and things improve, you need a lot of chips. I had been thinking of a number line down the side of the character sheet, with a paperclip used to represent the current value.

The overall concern I had is that when you overcome someone's defense, you now have to do another subtraction operation. That's a slower process than simple addition.


Given that I still don't understand it, having read it five times, either my coffee still hasn't kicked in or this system isn't that simple to understand.

Ok, on the other system I was thinking of, maybe this would make it clearer.

Hmm, let's say you have Beads representing defense. And you'll roll a number of dice on an attack, but let's go with d6s for now. Each Bead of defense will cancel out one die from the highest result to the lowest, but a max roll on the die takes two beads to cancel out. The remaining dice are added up to determine damage.

So if someone has 3 Defense.

If there's a 3d6 attack with 2, 3, 5, then no damage is dealt. The as there is one defense per die.

If there's a 3d6 attack with a 2, 3, 6, then two damage is dealt, as the 6 requires two defense to cancel, the 3 requires 1, and the 2 is unopposed.

If there's a 4d6 attack, then 3, 4, 5, 5 would do 3 points of damage, since the 4, 5, and 5 are cancelled by the three points of defense.

If there's a 4d6 attack of 3, 4, 5, 6, then it would deal 7 points of damage, since the 6 takes 2 defense and the 5 takes the remaining one, leaving 3+4 damage.

If there's a 2d6 attack, then that still does something. a 2, 4 would get rid of 2 defense for that round, leaving just 1 defense left. So another 2d6 attack would do at least 1d6 damage.

Bonuses and penalties could be done after die addition or done per die. Lots of other ways to mess around with how this works due to special abilities.

This makes dealing with the defense easier, though you lose some granularity.

Edit: I hope this is considered thread relevant.