"don't get killed" [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

swicked

2013-07-20, 02:54 PM

I find it honestly pretty amusing the way Roy answered Belkar's request to not get killed. Fact is that they spent a heck of a story arc trying to get Roy back to life, Belkar helping that along even after his curse was lifted. In the illusion Roy and company gladly left Belkar dead after their fight with Xykon and I think might have felt a bit guilty when Belkar asked them where he was in their illusion.

I never really thought about the oracle's prediction including the fact that, no matter how much character growth belkar might go through, if he dies... they're not going to revive him. He's not worth it... not even from a utilitarian standpoint, I suppose.
Even if the rest of the team would be (though I may be overstepping myself with that assumption).

I would figure he knows this, so his statement could likely reflect that acknowledgement, to a degree.

I dunno. Clearly, at this point, they would still just walk away if Belkar were to die. Do you suppose that could change, particularly within whatever remains of his last year?

Chad30

2013-07-20, 03:23 PM

There may come a time where they all may regret Belkar passing, to some extent, but most likely not enough to bring him back. The scene in the illusion at Belkar's grave was pretty much how I expected the others to react, and I don't blame Roy and V for walking off right after he's been buried.

Warren Dew

2013-07-20, 03:25 PM

137beth

2013-07-20, 04:13 PM

Of course, he also helped Roy's death along.

No, no he definitely did not. Even the oracle says you are wrong.

Bogsworth

2013-07-20, 04:48 PM

There's another possibility though: over time the Order actually does take to Belkar as a member of the team and would revive him upon his death if capable. However, should Belkar die from being mauled by the Snarl, that'd be an irrevocable state of death that would make the prophecy come true.

Warren Dew

2013-07-20, 04:59 PM

No, no he definitely did not. Even the oracle says you are wrong.
I think you're getting "caused" and "contributed to" confused. Belkar contributed the ring of jumping, which enabled Roy's death, though Xykon was the direct cause.

Sky_Schemer

2013-07-20, 06:11 PM

I think you're getting "caused" and "contributed to" confused. Belkar contributed the ring of jumping, which enabled Roy's death, though Xykon was the direct cause.

Not this argument again. Even the Oracle admitted that he, himself, "wasn't really buying those theories, either (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)". He was just trying to weasel out of being killed by Belkar.

Jiggs

2013-07-20, 06:57 PM

Jiggs

2013-07-20, 06:59 PM

Emanick

2013-07-20, 07:02 PM

Not this argument again. Even the Oracle admitted that he, himself, "wasn't really buying those theories, either (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html)". He was just trying to weasel out of being killed by Belkar.

It's not a theory that Belkar technically contributed to Roy's death by giving him the Ring of Jumping +20. It's an inarguable fact, just as much as it's a fact that Sangwaan contributed to Roy's death by using True Seeing to detect the location of the dragon, or that Durkon contributed to Roy's death by making the dragon visible. The fact that the Oracle didn't technically consider Belkar's action a fulfillment of the prophecy simply means that, in the kobold's mind, calling Death's Lil' Helper the "cause" of Roy's death would be too much of a stretch to be plausible.

Of course Roy could have died otherwise... but I consider it a stretch that he would have been able to get to the castle in time to die at Xykon's hands, and in any case we don't know for sure that he would have died when Soon and the Sapphire Guard were fighting alongside him. He might simply have smashed the Sapphire Gate immediately, and, like O'Chul, he might have survived the explosion.

137beth

2013-07-20, 07:06 PM

Of course Roy could have died otherwise... but I consider it a stretch that he would have been able to get to the castle in time to die at Xykon's hands, and in any case we don't know for sure that he would have died when Soon and the Sapphire Guard were fighting alongside him. He might simply have smashed the Sapphire Gate immediately, and, like O'Chul, he might have survived the explosion.
But the oracle disagrees with you on that one:smallsigh:

Sky_Schemer

2013-07-20, 07:22 PM

It's not a theory that Belkar technically contributed to Roy's death by giving him the Ring of Jumping +20. It's an inarguable fact, just as much as it's a fact that Sangwaan contributed to Roy's death by using True Seeing to detect the location of the dragon, or that Durkon contributed to Roy's death by making the dragon visible.

Sorry, no. Once you allow indirect actions in the door there's just no end to it.

Rakoa

2013-07-20, 07:29 PM

Sorry, no. Once you allow indirect actions in the door there's just no end to it.

That doesn't make it less true.

Emanick

2013-07-20, 07:39 PM

But the oracle disagrees with you on that one:smallsigh:

He says Roy "probably would have died anyway." But I'm pretty sure the Oracle has no way of knowing what would have happened, only what WILL happen.

Sorry, no. Once you allow indirect actions in the door there's just no end to it.

"Caused" and "contributed to" are different things. Literally millions of factors and choices "contributed to" Roy's death, some more important than others. Did Belkar kill Roy? No. But would Roy have died if Belkar wasn't there? Arguably not.

ORione

2013-07-20, 07:53 PM

Guys, I don't think Emanick is arguing that Belkar giving Roy the ring was enough to fulfill the terms of the prophecy. Just that if he hadn't, events would have turned out differently.

Sky_Schemer

2013-07-20, 08:05 PM

"Caused" and "contributed to" are different things. Literally millions of factors and choices "contributed to" Roy's death, some more important than others. Did Belkar kill Roy? No. But would Roy have died if Belkar wasn't there? Arguably not.

Which is why this is silly reasoning. Quite literally everything in Roy's life contributed.

The original post was Belkar "helped Roy's death along". No. I draw the line at direct vs. indirect actions.

FujinAkari

2013-07-20, 08:20 PM

Which is why this is silly reasoning. Quite literally everything in Roy's life contributed.

The original post was Belkar "helped Roy's death along". No. I draw the line at direct vs. indirect actions.

It did. Inarguably.

Belkar's action (giving Roy a ring of jumping) helped Roy's death (allowing him to fight Xykon.)

Arguing against it is like arguing that the pizza delivery guy didn't help your hunger go away.

JustWantedToSay

2013-07-20, 08:42 PM

{self-scrubbed}

Arguing against it is like arguing that the pizza delivery guy didn't help your hunger go away.

Control the variables. Does the pizza guy have any effect that eating pizza did not have. Did delivery cure any more hunger than walk-in take-out, dine-in, prepare at home did? If the answer is no, then there was no contribution.

Contribution implies just as much as a direct relationship as 'cause' does.

Since it's a +20 to jump checks, i presume that it also applies to your landing ability, and not jsut your take off velocity. That is if roy could jump of the ramparts to the ground and survive without the ring, then jumping with the ring wouldn't be fatal either. Therefore it makes no contribution.

Cavenskull

2013-07-20, 09:08 PM

Which is why this is silly reasoning. Quite literally everything in Roy's life contributed.
This is not true. I'll even give you a counter-example involving Roy and Xykon. When Xykon shattered Roy's sword, Roy's resulting rage caused him to grab Xykon and throw him into Dorukan's Gate, causing the temporary destruction of Xykon. Had Xykon used any number of other spells (Hold Person to immobilize Roy, or Overland Flight to get out of melee range) to deal with Roy, Xykon and his forces might very well have killed off the entire Order of the Stick. So Xykon's actions actually enabled Roy to live longer than he might have otherwise. For more mundane examples, every time Roy or someone else did anything to protect Roy or to neutralize any harm that came to him, that delayed Roy's death. Durkon's healing spells helped keep Roy alive, as did Vaarsuvius' disintegration of a young black dragon, and the relative compassion of a certain bandit leader versus his more bloodthirsty daughter, especially when combined with Durkon's intense fear of trees. Had Samantha been allowed to maintain control of the bandits, she undoubtedly would have had the entire party executed--since that's what she was in the process of doing anyway when Roy interfered. I could even point out that Roy's silly insistence on carrying a weapon or on eating and drinking helped delay his death.

So no, not every single event that ever happened in Roy's life helped his death along.

The original post was Belkar "helped Roy's death along". No. I draw the line at direct vs. indirect actions.

But a statement like, "he helped Roy's death along" is intended to refer ONLY to indirect actions in the first place. We are NOT talking about the prophecy here. Belkar definitely did not directly cause the death of Roy by giving him a Ring of Jumping. But giving Roy the ring was enough to enable Roy to end up in a lethal situation faster than he would otherwise. So Belkar's contribution indirectly resulted in Roy's death. If Belkar had not given the ring to Roy, he would have had to find some other way to get Xykon's attention. Even if Xykon killed Roy anyway, the resulting delay would have enabled Roy to live a bit longer than he would have otherwise. So Belkar did in fact "help Roy's death along" by doing something that reduced the amount of time Roy had left to live. It doesn't satisfy any prophecies, but it does satisfy Warren Dew's assertion, and that's all we're really talking about here.

swicked

2013-07-21, 01:28 AM

When Belkar fought with Miko and V interrupted the battle which would (and Belkar expected this) end in his death, Belkar argued with V saying Durkon would have revived him. And this may have been true, Durkon would have done so if he had not been given an order to do otherwise.
In my humble opinion he was the most loyal of the group, to the group.
We have seen this in his final request to Malak.
But now Durkon is under the influence of Malak.
This means even if they wanted to (e.g. to keep up the numbers for the fight at hand) they could not raise him.
We have seen the trouble they had to go through to raise Roy.
It pains me to know that the profecy will eventually come true and I am sorry to say that even the D&D system has rules and possibilities of resurrection that I am counting on Belkar dying a final death.
I hope it will be a memorable one and I hope it takes as long as the story goes.

Durkon not being available would not stop them from trying to raise Roy. Haley didn't originally set out with Roy's corpse expecting to find her way to Durkon, but to check every city they could for a cleric of sufficient level (so they could very well just pick up where they left off). Basically, they were trying (or... Haley and sylph were, but I figure most of the rest would, too). That's clearly different from walking away the moment Belkar was in the ground.
You say Durkon is the most loyal to the group, but I think Elan is, to a strong degree, too... he just doesn't have much strength of will. Maybe that's part of loyalty but I'd like to think he asked Roy more than once if they could revive Belkar and was shot down a few dozen times before giving up (if he even did).

In any case, I am more of a fan of the ironically anti-climactic. I hope it's a simple act of kindness that does him in and he goes off screaming into the afterlife for having grown the slightest bit of a conscience at literally the worst possible time.

...or, you know, something else entirely :D

Weiser_Cain

2013-07-21, 02:28 AM

I just hope they don't pull a 'joker' and bring him back or make him a lord of hell or something because he's popular.

swicked

2013-07-21, 02:34 AM

I just hope they don't pull a 'joker' and bring him back or make him a lord of hell or something because he's popular.

The oracle's "official" prophesy is that he will "breathe his last breath".
If he came back at all, he'd have to be either undead or some form of construct, right?
Though, in the later case, he probably wouldn't still be himself, if that bone-golem Roy was turned into was any indication...

I have no actual DnD knowledge outside of what has been shown in the comic, so is there any actual way for a human to become a demon of some sort?

((Actually, on a completely separate note that might merit its own topic, I wonder how often DnD sessions feature a player that either believes or outright knows that none of the rest of the team would stick their necks out for him and therefore has to watch his hit points that much more diligently than anyone else does...))

FujinAkari

2013-07-21, 02:44 AM

I have no actual DnD knowledge outside of what has been shown in the comic, so is there any actual way for a human to become a demon of some sort?)

Classically, there are two:

First of all, darn near -every- soul that enters the evil afterlife becomes a very weak demon. The process destroys their individuality and they just become a being that thirsts for battle, goes to fight, gets killed, gets reborne of evil energy, ad infinum.

Eventually, some of these weak beings become stronger and evolve into higher classes of demons / devils, all the way up to Balors and the like. The most powerful (who have typically been in the underworld since time began) become the rulers of their plane and have control over the rest through strength of arms.

While Belkar could eventually go this route, he really wouldn't be Belkar anymore. The existence of resurrection makes this tricky as well, since officially the lesser demons are supposed to lose their identity... but... somehow regain it if resurrected? That has never been properly explained :)

The second path involves a very powerful mortal (such as the soul splices) who achieve feats enough to warrent personal attention from the Lords of the underworld. Some of these will merit exception and be allowed to retain their memories and personalities to better serve that particular Lord's ambition and, in time, may be granted more power, becoming a demon rather than a subservient soul.

Chronos

2013-07-21, 07:02 AM

Mikhailangelo

2013-07-21, 11:53 AM

In other news: 'Big Bang Kills Billions, Eventually will Cause End of World!'

Katuko

2013-07-21, 12:40 PM

While Belkar could eventually go this route, he really wouldn't be Belkar anymore. The existence of resurrection makes this tricky as well, since officially the lesser demons are supposed to lose their identity... but... somehow regain it if resurrected? That has never been properly explained :)
I took it to mean that the newly formed demon loses its own personality in the middle of the bloodlust and everything, and only after "settling in" by becoming a more powerful demon does proper clarity of mind start to return. They become more independent from the hellish realm that sustains them, so to speak.

Jiggs

2013-07-21, 05:10 PM

Durkon not being available would not stop them from trying to raise Roy. Haley didn't originally set out with Roy's corpse expecting to find her way to Durkon, but to check every city they could for a cleric of sufficient level ...
You say Durkon is the most loyal to the group, but I think Elan is, to a strong degree, too... he just doesn't have much strength of will. Maybe that's part of loyalty but I'd like to think he asked Roy more than once if they could revive Belkar and was shot down a few dozen times before giving up (if he even did).

With Roy it was a little different, since he is the group leader, etc....
Roy also pointed out how difficult it had been to raise him, since they definitely have not yet given up on the idea to bring back Durkon.
What I meant to say was, that raising Belkar is (sorry to say) not a priority if it is not conveniently easy (Durkon providing the spell opportunity) and/or necessary.

Anyway what I wanted to say was, I did not mean to doubt Elan's loyalty or commitment to the group, but it has been stated by Haley when they where Mikos prisoners traveling to Azur City that she could persuade Élan to run off with her. It was also then that Durkon kept them together by making the bet with Haley and won :)
Elan's heart is in the right place but his mind is mostly wandering loose ^^

e1_conquistador

2013-07-22, 11:48 AM

Everybody loves vampire halflings. Super-easy plot solution...

Evazan

2013-07-22, 01:07 PM

Jeez, not this again. Xykon caused Roy's death.

You see, if Xykon didn't want to get some serious evil done, he wouldn't have joined up with Redcloak to capture the Gates, which means he wouldn't have occupied the Dungeon of Dorukan. If he never did that, then Roy would never have brought the Order to the Dungeon of Dorukan, which means that Elan wouldn't have touched the self-destruct rune on Dorukan's Gate. Without that, Miko would never have arrested the Order and brought them to Azure City, and Xykon would also never have gone there, because his only reason for going was to capture Soon's Gate, and the Battle of Azure City would never have taken place. Since Xykon was on the zombie dragon only because he was going to fly to the throne room to capture the Gate, and Roy was only there because Xykon had previously gone to Dorukan's Gate, if Xykon never decided he wanted to get some serious evil done, then Roy wouldn't have died the way he did.

137beth

2013-07-22, 05:11 PM

dps

2013-07-22, 09:54 PM

Classically, there are two:

First <snip>

The second path involves a very powerful mortal (such as the soul splices) who achieve feats enough to warrent personal attention from the Lords of the underworld. Some of these will merit exception and be allowed to retain their memories and personalities to better serve that particular Lord's ambition and, in time, may be granted more power, becoming a demon rather than a subservient soul.

It's possible that Belkar might fall into the second, and be enjoying himself in the CE afterlife so much that he won't come back even if they try to raise him. Or that OotS-world afterlifes don't necessarily follow "Classically" rules.

Morthis

2013-07-22, 11:17 PM

This is not true. I'll even give you a counter-example involving Roy and Xykon. When Xykon shattered Roy's sword, Roy's resulting rage caused him to grab Xykon and throw him into Dorukan's Gate, causing the temporary destruction of Xykon. Had Xykon used any number of other spells (Hold Person to immobilize Roy, or Overland Flight to get out of melee range) to deal with Roy, Xykon and his forces might very well have killed off the entire Order of the Stick. So Xykon's actions actually enabled Roy to live longer than he might have otherwise. For more mundane examples, every time Roy or someone else did anything to protect Roy or to neutralize any harm that came to him, that delayed Roy's death. Durkon's healing spells helped keep Roy alive, as did Vaarsuvius' disintegration of a young black dragon, and the relative compassion of a certain bandit leader versus his more bloodthirsty daughter, especially when combined with Durkon's intense fear of trees. Had Samantha been allowed to maintain control of the bandits, she undoubtedly would have had the entire party executed--since that's what she was in the process of doing anyway when Roy interfered. I could even point out that Roy's silly insistence on carrying a weapon or on eating and drinking helped delay his death.

By the same logic Durkon contributed to Roy's death, by not resisting Miko and allowing the order to be captured. The Gods contributed as well, by allowing a snarl to be created, which caused Xykon to show up at that time and place. Etc. You could probably expand this to include just about everybody Roy knows or vaguely knows about if you try hard enough. It's a silly line of reasoning, especially when you consider Roy would have gotten destroyed under pretty much any conditions he could have fought Xykon (short of another deus ex).

realroadcrossin

2013-07-22, 11:31 PM

Not only did Belkar contribute to Roy's death, he intended to as well. Even the existence of the prophecy is informative: He found it very important to know if he would ever cause Roy's death, among a shortlist of five people. And during the battle, he specifically gave Roy his ring because he knew that it would encourage Roy to do something stupid and dangerous, and he wanted to see that happen.

This guy seems like he's on the money here. The point isn't whether Belkar fulfilled some prophecy on some technicalities - it's that the guy has actually grown up a little bit. Belkar when they first met the oracle wanted to kill just about anyone he met, and during the battle of azure city it's about the same. Remember, Belkar still probably wanted to kill Roy then, but he couldn't because he had the mark of justice on him. When Belkar had the mark of justice he became pretty creative with some of his methods of (usually attempted) slaughter within cities. He probably figured that if Xykon killed Roy he would be free from the mark, or at least having to stay around Roy all the time.

I think a bit of a contrast is being drawn between Xykon and Belkar here. They both pretty much have the only goal in life of being powerful and murderous, but Belkar since his hippie vision quest hasn't just been faking character development, he's actually been maturing. I think his whole second prophecy is basically a way of forcing the reader to realize how far Belkar will go when his back is against the wall. The segments in Girard's pyramid have been full of moments where you think Belkar is going to die at any moment, but instead he ends up being crucial for success. Both in the case of the illusion and the pyramid's explosion, they've had to trust Belkar's judgment to get through, and in stepping up to a leadership role he's helped compensate for their loss of casters.

Not really sure what the topic here is but I was feeling something along those lines and I have to say I've stopped trying to predict when Belkar will die since obviously **** is about to get real.

veti

2013-07-23, 09:03 AM

Remember, Belkar still probably wanted to kill Roy then, but he couldn't because he had the mark of justice on him. When Belkar had the mark of justice he became pretty creative with some of his methods of (usually attempted) slaughter within cities. He probably figured that if Xykon killed Roy he would be free from the mark, or at least having to stay around Roy all the time.

I don't read Belkar as "wanting" to kill Roy, exactly. It's more like he sees it as a challenge, because Roy is too tough to tackle head-on (the way Belkar handles most of his battles) and too smart to ambush (as he did with Miko in round 2). So when he asks that question of the Oracle, it's not because he hates Roy and wants him dead - it's because he wants to know if he'll ever attain the degree of skill and/or luck necessary to kill him.

Remember, Belkar actually spares Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html) when she's at his mercy. To me that says, it's not about the killing - it's the fighting that he enjoys. Killing is incidental.

realroadcrossin

2013-07-23, 01:00 PM

Possibly, but Belkar's motivations there still tend towards the aggressive. Belkar wasn't trying to kill Miko, he wanted her to kill him and fall. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0286.html) He's unashamedly chaotic evil, to the point where at one point the only thing keeping him from killing another party member was that the other ones would promptly kill him in turn.

I don't think he gave Roy the ring explicitly to kill him, but he did put a bet on it with that Azure City prisoner guy off panel. There's no way you can convince me that bet was anything other than something along the lines of "I bet you I can get Roy to do this stupid thing that could get him killed." His moral dilemma over the follow up bet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) shows that there probably wasn't any straight up malice in the first bet, but the difference between then and now is tremendous. He's much more of a team player willing to help out the team without benefiting his own self interest, sometimes even acting against it.

It seems like we're going to learn what really happened to Kraagor soon. Belkar's death within the pyramid illusion reminded me a lot of what we've heard of Kraagor's death - the chaotic members mourning the loss of a friend, the lawful members just viewing it as another necessary death for the cause, not really that different from a random encounter. So much has changed though even from when they were under that illusion. The other party members know he wasn't lying about Durkon. He saved their butts by getting everyone over to Girard's coffin. He's so low on HP at the moment that it's plausible that just about anything could get him killed now.

Which is to say that maybe even more important than Belkar being nicer to Roy is the possibility of Roy being nice to Belkar. Writing these posts for this thread I thought I remembered Belkar being more of an ******* to Roy, but it seems like the opposite to me honestly. It reminds me of Elan and Roy's relationship, except since Belkar is a bit more intelligent and more than a smidgen more evil Roy doesn't even pretend to respect Belkar. When Roy came back from the dead, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) he didn't treat Belkar's upcoming death as anything but a reason for him not to be too suspicious of Belkar's motives for being a team player, since if Belkar had some nefarious motives for helping with their quest they would be moot if he was dead. Notably, he chose to share this information with Haley, someone who shares his cynical view of Belkar, as opposed to Belkar himself, or even Elan and Durkon who seem to have a little more sympathy for the guy.

DeliaP

2013-07-24, 11:08 AM

Just to recap my understanding....

Did Belkar's giving the ring of jumping to Roy in any way represent the fulfilling of the Oracle's prophecy? No. Not at all. Nothing more to say.

Did Belkar's giving the ring of jumping to Roy

also helped Roy's death along. ?

Well, in a lot of perfectly normal ways of speaking (ways of speaking that wouldn't cause anyone much of a problem if it hadn't been for the fact that enormous amounts of arguments about whether this represented fulfilment of the Oracle's prophecy), well yes, it did help Roy's death along.

Does this mean Belkar was specifically trying to help Roy's death along by giving him the ring of jumping?

It's unclear to me we can tell. I'd read it much like this:

I don't think he gave Roy the ring explicitly to kill him, but he did put a bet on it with that Azure City prisoner guy off panel. There's no way you can convince me that bet was anything other than something along the lines of "I bet you I can get Roy to do this stupid thing that could get him killed." [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html"]

except I'd express it more as "I bet I can get Roy to do this really recklessly stupid thing." because that's what makes it funny to Belkar and the other guy.

Being a really recklessly stupid thing, in the middle of a battle, it clearly carried a risk of Roy getting himself killed. And it didn't even go through Belkar's head to say "Hold up, even though it would be funny to get Roy to do this recklessly stupid thing, he might get killed - maybe I shouldn't do that!". Because he just didn't care about that risk of Roy dying, compared to how funny it would be to make a bet on whether he could get Roy to do something recklessly stupid.

He's not trying to get Roy killed, as such, he just doesn't care that it's a potential consequence, compared to getting a cheap laugh and a small bet. (Still down below in the alignment pool, in my book at least.)

On a side note, though:

Belkar's death within the pyramid illusion reminded me a lot of what we've heard of Kraagor's death - the chaotic members mourning the loss of a friend, the lawful members just viewing it as another necessary death for the cause, not really that different from a random encounter.

But it's not lawful vs. chaotic members:Durkon (LG) is grieving with Elan and Haley, it's Varsuvius (TN) walking away with Roy.

Which, interestingly, does have Haley grieving, even though, as you note, Haley shared Roy's cynical view of Belkar's recent change in behaviour and regarding the prophecy regarding Belkar's death.

(And I think we only really get a sense of Serrini and Gerard's response to Kraagor's death.)

Which is to say that maybe even more important than Belkar being nicer to Roy is the possibility of Roy being nice to Belkar. Writing these posts for this thread I thought I remembered Belkar being more of an ******* to Roy, but it seems like the opposite to me honestly.
<snip>
When Roy came back from the dead,he didn't treat Belkar's upcoming death as anything but a reason for him not to be too suspicious of Belkar's motives for being a team player, since if Belkar had some nefarious motives for helping with their quest they would be moot if he was dead.

Before we get into sympathy for Belkar territory, I'd like to point out Haley and Roy's feelings are conditioned on the past behaviour of Belkar, which, lets be clear, was that of psychopathic murderer, and was barely tolerated as long as they could keep him close and targetted at even worse evils, and because they just didn't trust any prison cell to hold him better than they could.

Even now, no-one in the party knows about his internal changes in motivation and he is still regarded by them in light of his past behaviour as "a cold blooded monster that we're just managing to control by intangible means until either he escapes, or he dies for a cause that isn't his own"
[URL="http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0838.html"]

Well, except Durkon who, as is shown in OotPCs and tragically recently, is fully prepared to risk/sacrifice his own life to protect and defend those he might have no respect for, and Elan, who is incapable of seeing other than the best in people unless it's written in fiery letters 300ft tall.

Cavenskull

2013-07-27, 05:19 PM

By the same logic Durkon contributed to Roy's death, by not resisting Miko and allowing the order to be captured. The Gods contributed as well, by allowing a snarl to be created, which caused Xykon to show up at that time and place. Etc. You could probably expand this to include just about everybody Roy knows or vaguely knows about if you try hard enough. It's a silly line of reasoning, especially when you consider Roy would have gotten destroyed under pretty much any conditions he could have fought Xykon (short of another deus ex).
I don't care how silly it is. My only point was that not every single event that ever happened in Roy's life "helped his death along". And there's a difference between "contributing to Roy's death" and "helping Roy's death along". As silly as it may be, one actually could argue that everything that has ever happened in the entire history of the world of OOTS "contributed to Roy's death", since clearly the events of the comic did in fact ultimately result in Roy's death. However, not everything that ever happened "helped his death along", because many things that happened to Roy actually increased his life expectancy.

Let's see if I can put together an example:

When Roy threw Xykon into Dorukan's Gate, it "contributed to Roy's death" at Azure City, because it forced Xykon and Redcloack to pursue a different gate than the one they were already attempting to control, which resulted in Roy and Xykon facing off in the skies above Azure City. We're basically talking about destiny here, where everything that ever happens culminates to a specific event; in this case, Roy's fall to his death at Azure City.

However, when Roy threw Xykon into Dorukan's Gate, it did not "help Roy's death along", because throwing Xykon into Dorukan's Gate ensured that Xykon could not kill Roy (or anyone else) at Dorukan's Gate. Sure, Roy would eventually die anyway at Azure City, but by temporarily destroying Xykon, Roy postponed his own death rather than hasten it along.