Balanced Stealth/Archer/Arcane build?

[PangolinPie]

Been mulling this idea around in my head for a while now for a particular build that would basically be a stealthy archer/sniper with a good degree of arcane abilities. Been doing my research; found a lot of potential in the Swift Hunter Ranger/Scout build but not a big fan of the Ranger spell list. A friend told me he once played a Beguiler/Scout build that was a lot of fun and both classes bare some very Rogue like abilities that stacked well enough although he had to split useful feats between casting and ranged.

I could just do a straightforward Fighter/Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Archer tree but I'm really not fond of dipping into so many classes for just a level or two...seems kind of cheap at least with the way I game.

I've also always been fond of the concept behind the Shadowcraft Mage, especially with the use of illusions and shadows to aid in stealth...

Any ideas?

PS: No Psionics and not familiar at all with systems/mythos of Ebberon, Faerun, etc...just standard 3.5.

[Flickerdart]

Unseen Seer is your friend. Pull the good archery spells off the Ranger's list (they're almost all Divinations) and rock out like a badass.

[Piggy Knowles]

I've got a few in my sig...

Here are some samples:



The Murderous Sniper

BUILD STUB: Human, Ranger 2/Wilderness Feat Rogue 4/Deepwood Sniper 7/Chameleon 7

PROGRESSION:

(Dedicated to an Elder Evil of your choosing.)

1. Feat Rogue1- PBS, Precise Shot, Able Learner, Evil Brand
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- Rapid Shot, Darkstalker
4. Feat Rogue2- WF (Comp. Longbow)
5. Feat Rogue3- Blood War Conscript
6. Feat Rogue4- Far Shot, Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
7. Deepwood Sniper1-
8. DWS2-
9. DWS3- Knowledge Devotion
10. DWS4- Murderous Intent
11. Chameleon1-
12. Chameleon2- Martial Stance (Assassin’s Stance)
13. DWS5-
14. DWS6-
15. DWS7- Apostate, Craven
16. Chameleon3-
17. Chameleon4-
18. Chameleon5- Maiming Strike
19. Chameleon6-
20. Chameleon7- Insane Defiance

The build relies on Murderous Intent combined with hunter's mercy to make single high-critting shots from distance.


All of the relevant stealth and tracking goodies, including Darkstalker, excellent skill ranks, and any stealth related spells as needed.
Poison Use, plus Chameleon spells for minor creation to make poisons on demand.
Murderous Intent automatically confirms any crits versus favored enemies. Arcane Hunter gives a huge range of favored enemies (anyone who can cast spells or SLAs), and the Chameleon floating bonus feat can pick up additional enemies on demand via Extra Favored Enemy.
Kaorti resin arrows allow for ×6 crits, for hunter's mercy/Murderous Intent fun.
Hunter's eye brings the sneak attack up to +8d6 for 4 points of Charisma damage (which is multiplied on a crit, unlike the variable sneak attack damage would be). That's a solid 24 points of Charisma damage on every successful crit. Sniper's shot lets you do this from any range.


So, assuming a +2 collision energy bow with GMW cast on it, and a +4 strength bonus, we can look at something like...

1d8 +2 FE +20 craven +1 Blood War Conscript +5 enhancement +5 collision +4 strength +17 power shot +5 knowledge devotion = 1d8+59 base damage. So with a single arrow, we're looking at a MINIMUM of 360 points of damage, plus poison and 24 points of Charisma damage. That's just from the first shot that successfully hits - if this fails to KO, the remaining shots should.



Ultimate Arcane Archer

BUILD STUB: Half-Elf, Half-Elf Paragon 3/Martial Wizard 1/Cloistered Cleric (Trickery, Planning) 1/Fighter 2/Chameleon 10/Death Delver 1

PROGRESSION:

1. Half-Elf Paragon1- Human Heritage, Able Learner
2. Cloistered Cleric1- Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell
3. Wizard1- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
4. Fighter1- Rapid Shot
5. Fighter2- Weapon Focus (longbow)
6. Chameleon1- Persistent Spell
7. Chameleon2-
8. Chameleon3-
9. Chameleon4- Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell)
10. Arcane Archer1-
11. Arcane Archer2-
12. Chameleon5- Extra Turning
13. Chameleon6-
14. Chameleon7-
15. Chameleon8- Extra Turning
16. Chameleon9-
17. Chameleon10-
18. Death Delver1- Extra Turning
19. Half-Elf Paragon2-
20. Half-Elf Paragon3-


OK, I love Arcane Archer, and I love Chameleon, so it should be no big surprise that I tried to get them both into the same build. Half-Elf Paragon lets me take both Human Heritage and Able Learner at first level, allowing me to qualify for both Arcane Archer and Chameleon down the road.

This should allow me to persist a ridiculous number of buffs, depending on how your DM interprets mimic class feature - with five turning pools (cleric, death delver, mimic class feature x3), that's 75 + (5xCha) turn attempts before items. In any case, as for spells to imbue, there are a huge number of options, since as a Chameleon you can cast just about any spell in the game of 6th-level or below. The classic is AMF, of course. You can also pick up fun spells with longer casting times to abuse Arcane Archer's standard action imbue - Control Weather off the shugenja list as a 6th-level spell is one example. Guards and Wards is another.

[beskargam]

wasnt there a feat that allows a ranger to cast wizard spells? and then of course you have the mystic ranger...not exaclty stock 3.5, but a reasonable class to most dm's iv'e played with...

[Piggy Knowles]

wasnt there a feat that allows a ranger to cast wizard spells? and then of course you have the mystic ranger...not exaclty stock 3.5, but a reasonable class to most dm's iv'e played with...

Sword of the Arcane Order allows you to prepare wizard spells in your paladin or ranger slots, although you still need a spellbook to do so. Requires being a member of an order of knights that worship Mystra.

[PangolinPie]

Unseen Seer is your friend. Pull the good archery spells off the Ranger's list (they're almost all Divinations) and rock out like a badass.

Out of everyone your idea seems to be the most appealing and closest to what I was talking about. What would be a good starting build leading into that? Maybe that Swift Hunter build or a straight Ranger?

[Flickerdart]

Out of everyone your idea seems to be the most appealing and closest to what I was talking about. What would be a good starting build leading into that? Maybe that Swift Hunter build or a straight Ranger?
Spellthief 1/Wizard 5 (gotta get that Spontaneous Divination)/Unseen Seer 10, finished off however you like (Arcane Trickster for more SA, Spellwarp Sniper for more SA and rays, Sacred Exorcist or Incantatrix for persist shenanigans, whatever). Use your Advanced Learning to pick up Hunter's Eye, for more Sneak Attack, and then get unlimited range with it using Sniper's Shot. Extend/Persist will help you get these all day. Arrowmind is another good spell to pick up with Advanced Learning, if you like to mix it up in close range.

Swift Hunter is generally not worth it if you're going to try and get arcane casting. Divine casting, on the other hand, is easy - Scout 4/Mystic Ranger 16, and done.

[Grayson01]

Where can I find Sword of the Arcane Order at?


Sword of the Arcane Order allows you to prepare wizard spells in your paladin or ranger slots, although you still need a spellbook to do so. Requires being a member of an order of knights that worship Mystra.

[Piggy Knowles]

Out of everyone your idea seems to be the most appealing and closest to what I was talking about. What would be a good starting build leading into that? Maybe that Swift Hunter build or a straight Ranger?

You need an arcane caster class to advance with Unseen Seer. Wizard is an easy choice, and Beguiler has a lot of decent sneak capability.

If you want to get in without losing any CL, Ruathar from Races of the Wild will give you all the skills you need to get into Unseen Seer, so you could go Wizard 5/Ruathar 1/Unseen Seer 10. Alternatively, a level dip into Spellthief or Assassin works as well.

For a more high-powered build, I would recommend Uurkrau Illumian, Martial Wizard 5/Ruathar 1/Unseen Seer 3/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10.

Uurkrau illumian means that your bonus spells are based off of Dexterity, so you can really focus on boosting Dex. Ruathar gives you the skills to enter Unseen Seer, and Unseen Seer gets you fun divinations, the big one being Hunter's Eye (+1d6 sneak/3 CL). Nar Demonbinder from Unapproachable East gives you high level spontaneous spells, and Ultimate Magus progresses both NDB and Wizard. You can then use your NDB spell slots to apply metamagic like Persistent Spell to your Wizard spells.

EDIT: Actually, I may as well just post the whole build stub I use for the above concept, feats and all. Arcane Disciple (War) is there primarily for Divine Power, which is also persisted. If magical locations are permitted, pick up Iron Will by spending some time in an Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel, IIRC) and take either Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) to make up for the CL drop on non-divination spells, or take Residual Metamagic.

The Full Build:

PROGRESSION:
1. Wizard1- Point Blank Shot, Spell Focus (Conuration)
2. Wizard2-
3. Wizard3- Iron Will
4. Wizard4-
5. Wizard5- Precise Shot
6. Ruathar1- Extend Spell
7. Unseen Seer1-
8. Unseen Seer2-
9. Nar Demonbinder1- Practiced Spellcaster (Nar Demonbinder)
10. Ultimate Magus1-
11. Ultimate Magus2-
12. Ultimate Magus3- Rapid Shot
13. Ultimate Magus4-
14. Ultimate Magus5- Persistent Spell
15. Ultimate Magus6- Arcane Disciple (War)
16. Ultimate Magus7-
17. Ultimate Magus8-
18. Ultimate Magus9- Woodland Archer
19. Ultimate Magus10- Quicken Spell
20. Unseen Seer3-


RE: Mage of the Arcane Order, I'm pretty sure it's from Champions of Valor.

[Flickerdart]

Getting in with Ruathar unfortunately means that you don't get any precision damage progression. The only way I know of getting Sneak Attack dice as a class feature without losing CL is Magelord, and it's a hell of a bother to get into.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Getting in with Ruathar unfortunately means that you don't get any precision damage progression. The only way I know of getting Sneak Attack dice as a class feature without losing CL is Magelord, and it's a hell of a bother to get into.

Well you could get Assassin's stance at level 12 via martial stance on a full caster, though I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile.

[Malroth]

Elf Cloistered cleric with Knowledge devotion, zen archery and the trickery domain. Dip Shiba Protector 1 for complete Wis S.A.D

[Piggy Knowles]

Getting in with Ruathar unfortunately means that you don't get any precision damage progression. The only way I know of getting Sneak Attack dice as a class feature without losing CL is Magelord, and it's a hell of a bother to get into.

True. In a build that just dips Unseen Seer for the skills and access to Hunter's Eye, like the above-mentioned Ultimate Magus build, it's not really a big deal (1d6 SA certainly isn't worth dropping a caster level off the build), but for a dedicated build taking 10 levels of it, it would admittedly be a waste. In that case, you could either delay Unseen Seer until the later levels and take Martial Study and Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, or you could eat the loss with a dip into Spellthief, Assassin or Rogue.

EDIT:

Well you could get Assassin's stance at level 12 via martial stance on a full caster, though I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile.

Actually, here's where the simple wizard variant from UA saves the day. Delay your fifth level in wizard, take it at level 10, and use that bonus fighter feat to pick up Martial Stance. It would require some level juggling, and most likely a dip into Master Specialist to avoid losing any CL, but it's doable.

Final build would look something like Wizard 5/Master Specialist 2/Ruathar 3/Unseen Seer 10. You'd end up with 6d6 sneak attack (plus more if you use advanced learning for Hunter's Eye), and twenty full levels of wizard casting, plus fantastic skills. Not too shabby, if you ask me.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Oh right, forgot about that; so something like Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Ruathar 3 Wizard+2/Unseen seer 10?

[Piggy Knowles]

Oh right, forgot about that; so something like Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Ruathar 3 Wizard+2/Unseen seer 10?

Right. (I actually edited in that exact build stub just as you were posting :smalltongue:)

Pretty solid build, honestly. Excellent skills, decent sneak attack, and twenty full levels of wizard casting. Hard to complain too much about that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Lowish BAB could be a problem if you are trying to use a bow, though with full casting you can offset that without much problem.

[Piggy Knowles]

Lowish BAB could be a problem if you are trying to use a bow, though with full casting you can offset that without much problem.

True. +12 BAB is above average for a wizard but well below average for a ranger. You can circumvent the issue somewhat by playing as a sniper rather than a volley archer, but it's still kind of a bummer.

AD (War) only gets you a single casting of Divine Power, and there's no easy way to use Persistent Spell in this build. You could squeeze in three levels of Incantatrix by dropping a level of Ruathar and the last two levels of Unseen Seer, I suppose, which would let you persist it (and Hunter's Eye too, for that matter). But that makes the whole build feel less clean :smalltongue:

[PangolinPie]

Spellthief 1/Wizard 5 (gotta get that Spontaneous Divination)/Unseen Seer 10, finished off however you like (Arcane Trickster for more SA, Spellwarp Sniper for more SA and rays, Sacred Exorcist or Incantatrix for persist shenanigans, whatever). Use your Advanced Learning to pick up Hunter's Eye, for more Sneak Attack, and then get unlimited range with it using Sniper's Shot. Extend/Persist will help you get these all day. Arrowmind is another good spell to pick up with Advanced Learning, if you like to mix it up in close range.

Swift Hunter is generally not worth it if you're going to try and get arcane casting. Divine casting, on the other hand, is easy - Scout 4/Mystic Ranger 16, and done.

Wouldn't it be fortuitous to take at least 2 levels in Fighter for all the bonus archery feats or is it not as vital in this case?

[eggynack]

How about a straight factotum from Dungeonscape? They have the arcane stuff, because of the whole dilettante thing, and they have the stealth, because of their ridiculous skill capacity, and you can trivially specialize them for archery by using their repeated nova capacity to shoot from the darkness, and retreat until they can get another encounter. It's basically everything you desire in a single chunky container.

[gorfnab]

Bard 8/ Arcane Archer 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Ruathar 3 - you get decent skills, nice spellcasting, and extra damage if you go with Dragonfire Inspiration. Also being able to spam antimagic arrows is fun.

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't it be fortuitous to take at least 2 levels in Fighter for all the bonus archery feats or is it not as vital in this case?
Feats are for mundanes. If you really care about feats, just persist Heroics a bunch of times.