Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread II: New Thread smell included!

[caledscratcher]

Gonna be out of contact for five to seven days, so I will vote while I can.

Sorcerous Specialties
Gnome
Pyrrhic
Missing a Common Sense

[gr8artist]

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Taste My Steel
March Madness
A Pyrrhic Procedure

I apparently barely got my last round of votes in in time

[Milo v3]

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
A Pyrrhic Procedure
Dracula's Revenge 2: Electric Boogaloo
Taste My Steel

[Zaydos]

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Taste My Steel
March Madness
Go Big or Go Gnome

[Stake A Vamp]

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
phyrric procedurel
March Madness
Go Big or Go Gnome

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
In Honor of the Giant|Entries based on OotS|0
Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways|Specialized casters|5
Taste My Steel|Swordsmanship, Kendo, Weapons-Based Martial Arts|4
Missing a Common Sense|Entries lack one of the five senses|2
March Madness|Lovecraft Mythos|4
A Pyrrhic Procedure|Victory and success at great cost|4
Go Big or Go Gnome|Gnomes|3
Dracula's Revenge 2: Electric Boogaloo|Vampirism and those who oppose it, in all its forms.|2
[/table]

Tallied to here.

Also, today's the last day for this last contest folks. Please get in anything you need to finish and if you've been waiting to submit an entry, these few hours are your last chance!

@Adam: Dunno, I honestly really like the name. Anyone else have an issue with it?

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways|Specialized casters|0
Taste My Steel|Swordsmanship, Kendo, Weapons-Based Martial Arts|0
March Madness|Lovecraft Mythos|0
A Pyrrhic Procedure|Victory and success at great cost|0
[/table]

And 2 votes for you, my friends!

The voting thread is also up.

[gr8artist]

Damn this is a hard vote.

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Taste My Steel

[Adam1949]

Taste My Steel
March Madness

[Stake A Vamp]

March Madness
A Pyrrhic Procedure

both sound really fun

[DawnbringerSO]

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
A Pyrrhic Procedure

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways|Specialized casters|2
Taste My Steel|Swordsmanship, Kendo, Weapons-Based Martial Arts|2
March Madness|Lovecraft Mythos|2
A Pyrrhic Procedure|Victory and success at great cost|2
[/table]

Next vote decides it. :smalltongue:

[Milo v3]

Next vote decides it. :smalltongue:

Damn it... Voting was easier before you said that...
*Sigh*
Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Taste My Steel

[gr8artist]

Assuming it then comes down to those two (Sorcerous Specialties / Taste My Steel) then I will vote for Taste My Steel
Although I'm really on the fence. I may blend the two, into some kind of magical swordsman who employs magic in his martial arts.

Also, there's a link in my signature for the Commando, a melee-based prestige class with some slightly overpowered abilities designed to level the playing field against his best adversaries. Any input would be appreciated.

[Tanuki Tales]

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways|Specialized casters|0
Taste My Steel|Swordsmanship, Kendo, Weapons-Based Martial Arts|1
[/table]

Go go go!

[malonkey1]

{table=head]Proposed Name|Theme|Votes
Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways|Specialized casters|0
Taste My Steel|Swordsmanship, Kendo, Weapons-Based Martial Arts|1
[/table]

Go go go!

Sorcerous Specialties, I choose you!

[Adam1949]

Oh jeez, this is a tough one... do I go with magic, or melee?

...

Taste My Steel.

[Milo v3]

Taste My Steel

[DawnbringerSO]

sorcerous specialities

[NeoSeraphi]

Taste my Steel!

[Tanuki Tales]

4-2 for Taste My Steel. Anyone else planning to vote or can we call this?

[malonkey1]

4-2 for Taste My Steel. Anyone else planning to vote or can we call this?

If we do, be warned that I may take the title literally.

[Tanuki Tales]

Guys, I'm hereby putting this contest on hiatus until after the server upgrade and I've figured out how the new table coding works. :smallannoyed:

No point to get the new contest up for only 2 days and then needing to re-do the entire thread.

[Milo v3]

Guys, I'm hereby putting this contest on hiatus until after the server upgrade and I've figured out how the new table coding works. :smallannoyed:

No point to get the new contest up for only 2 days and then needing to re-do the entire thread.

Fair enough

[caledscratcher]

I'm back and am voting or Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways (if possible). I have no intention of disappearing now, so I should be fine. :)

[Tanuki Tales]

I really don't like the new UI....at all.

*sigh* Time to figure out the tabling code.

Edit:

Guys, if you get the time, could you please go back and update your old entries so I can at some point in the future start the archiving project again? The new contest should be up later this afternoon.

[Zaydos]

I think I fixed the table on Veteran... it looks worse than the old one and I'm pretty sure there's some way I could make it better, but I don't know what that would be.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think I fixed the table on Veteran... it looks worse than the old one and I'm pretty sure there's some way I could make it better, but I don't know what that would be.

The new tables are god awful, but there's nothing we can do about that.

And it looks like the contest is still on hiatus, as there's some instant post absorbing feature that prevents double posting. :smallannoyed:

[Milo v3]

Ugh.... This could take a while :smallsigh:

[gr8artist]

Table conversion protip:
Despite the formatting, you can bunch your table up like before; you do not need the subject of each box to be on its own row in the code.
Easy table conversion: Make a table with only one column, and the same number of rows as the previous one (remember you'll need a row for the title, so a 20-level class will be a 21x1 table.)
Copy the old text for an entire row. Should be something like:

level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special

Post that whole line between the {td} and {/td} tags. Then just replace every "|" with "{/td}{td}". The end result should be

{tr}
{td}level {/td}{td} BAB {/td}{td} Fort {/td}{td} Ref {/td}{td} Will {/td}{td} Special{/td}
{/tr}

You can then delete the row-break between your {/tr} and {tr} tags for extra space

{/tr}{tr}
{td}level {/td}{td} BAB {/td}{td} Fort {/td}{td} Ref {/td}{td} Will {/td}{td} Special{/td}
{/tr}{tr}
{td}level {/td}{td} BAB {/td}{td} Fort {/td}{td} Ref {/td}{td} Will {/td}{td} Special{/td}
{/tr}{tr}

So really, all you have to do is replace your old divider bars with table-data tags, and you're good.
Note: I used fancy brackets to avoid the post getting put into format. Use "[" and "]" instead of "{" and "}"

Let me see if I can post examples of an old table and a revised one.

- - - Updated - - -

(trying this with a "noparse" tag; hoping it will let me display raw code instead of it converting raw code into table)

Old table:
Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells/Extracts per day

1st|
+0|
+1|
+0|
+1|Favorite Companion, Bestial mutagen|
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Uncanny evolution (lesser), Identify the uncommon|
-

3rd|
+1|
+2|
+1|
+2|Unnatural aspect |
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

4th|
+2|
+2|
+1|
+2|Uncanny evolution (lesser)|
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

5th|
+2|
+3|
+2|
+3|Sideline Mutagen|
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

6th|
+3|
+3|
+2|
+3|Uncanny evolution (improved)|
-

7th|
+3|
+4|
+2|
+4|Optimized growth|
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

8th|
+4|
+4|
+3|
+4|Uncanny evolution (improved)|
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

9th|
+4|
+5|
+3|
+5|Common ancestry|
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

10th|
+5|
+5|
+3|
+5|Uncanny evolution (grand)|
-

New table (11 rows, 1 column - we will add dividers into the one column, but we'll input 11x1 into the hotkey interface):


LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialSpells/Extracts per day

1st
+0
+1
+0
+1Favorite Companion, Bestial mutagen
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

2nd
+1
+1
+1
+1Uncanny evolution (lesser), Identify the uncommon
-

3rd
+1
+2
+1
+2Unnatural aspect
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

4th
+2
+2
+1
+2Uncanny evolution (lesser)
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

5th
+2
+3
+2
+3Sideline Mutagen
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

6th
+3
+3
+2
+3Uncanny evolution (improved)
-

7th
+3
+4
+2
+4Optimized growth
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

8th
+4
+4
+3
+4Uncanny evolution (improved)
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

9th
+4
+5
+3
+5Common ancestry
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

10th
+5
+5
+3
+5Uncanny evolution (grand)
-



Took me just a few minutes.
Also, apparently double posting will combine the previous and current posts into one. Neat. Tanta, that may make it difficult for you to post the contest templates (PrC, Base Class, Creature, Race, etc.) at the start of each competition. Consider having links to them instead.
For anyone who's curious, here's the table without the noparse tags.


LevelBase Attack BonusFort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecialSpells/Extracts per day

1st
+0
+1
+0
+1Favorite Companion, Bestial mutagen
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

2nd
+1
+1
+1
+1Uncanny evolution (lesser), Identify the uncommon
-

3rd
+1
+2
+1
+2Unnatural aspect
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

4th
+2
+2
+1
+2Uncanny evolution (lesser)
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

5th
+2
+3
+2
+3Sideline Mutagen
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

6th
+3
+3
+2
+3Uncanny evolution (improved)
-

7th
+3
+4
+2
+4Optimized growth
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

8th
+4
+4
+3
+4Uncanny evolution (improved)
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

9th
+4
+5
+3
+5Common ancestry
+1 level of alchemist or existing spellcasting class

10th
+5
+5
+3
+5Uncanny evolution (grand)
-

[Tanuki Tales]

Ugh.... This could take a while :smallsigh:

Especially since I can't put up the next thread fully until Rawhide gets rid of the stupid anti-double-posting feature. :smallannoyed:

@Gr8: Thanks for posting the conversion guide. I think someone posted a program that does it for you on the Board Issue subforum.

[gr8artist]

Tanta, why not post links to the existing template posts, or add them in spoilers to your first post.
Alternatively, if you'd like, I can post the second post in the new thread, then you post the third, then I'll post the fourth, etc... Since then it won't condense your posts.

Also, they may have disabled the double post-absorption mechanic.

[Tanuki Tales]

Tanta, why not post links to the existing template posts, or add them in spoilers to your first post.
Alternatively, if you'd like, I can post the second post in the new thread, then you post the third, then I'll post the fourth, etc... Since then it won't condense your posts.

Also, they may have disabled the double post-absorption mechanic.

Let me shoot Rawhide a message and then we'll go from there.

[gr8artist]

Woot! Contest is up!
Now, which of the following would you like to see:


Armsman

Probably a PrC, but gets weapon styles kinda' like a ranger, but better.


Soulblade

PrC able to release his soul for a while, treating it as an ethereal unit under his command.


Spellsword

Class/Archtype that learns swordsmanship as a way to channel magical power.


Steeltalon

Creature template for creatures able to use weapons (sample creature - Tengu).


Blade Golem

Construct creature which incorporates weapons into itself and uses them in uncanny ways.


^ fancy table

I'm leaning toward the Steeltalon or Soulblade, though I think Armsman or Spellsword might fit the concept better than the Soulblade.

Also, Tables get a lot easier if you turn on the Editor button, top-left corner of the post, next to the "remove format" button and over the "bold that crap" button. Turning on the editor puts everything in the same type of view as MS Word, so when you bold something, you see it bold instead of with b-bracket-tags. While in that mode, the "add row" and "add column" buttons get active, allowing you to modify table on the fly.

[Tanuki Tales]

My vote is for the Golem to be honest.

And here's a link to that table converter, for anyone who wants it: http://makaze-kanra.tumblr.com/ForumTableConverter

[ShiningStarling]

Woot! Contest is up!
Now, which of the following would you like to see:


Armsman

Probably a PrC, but gets weapon styles kinda' like a ranger, but better.


Soulblade

PrC able to release his soul for a while, treating it as an ethereal unit under his command.


Spellsword

Class/Archtype that learns swordsmanship as a way to channel magical power.


Steeltalon

Creature template for creatures able to use weapons (sample creature - Tengu).


Blade Golem

Construct creature which incorporates weapons into itself and uses them in uncanny ways.


^ fancy table

I'm leaning toward the Steeltalon or Soulblade, though I think Armsman or Spellsword might fit the concept better than the Soulblade.

I would vote for Soulblade first, Armsman second. They both sound very cool to me :smallsmile:

[caledscratcher]

Hoohoohoo! As a former practitioner of Ryukyu Kempo, this will certainly be fun for me.

[Tanuki Tales]

Does anyone know if the signature updating has been fixed yet?

Also, please remember to vote everyone.

[Adam1949]

Signature updating? Huh?

Yes, please vote folks. We've only got two days, and just as many people voting. Get your favorite to the top! ((Protip: "Your Favorite" means the Furious Go-*BANG*))

Also, I've entered my race into the new contest. I think I've been reading too much Fate/Stay Night and/or playing too much Order of Ecclasia when right before making it.

[Tanuki Tales]

Signature updating? Huh?


There was an error when the site came back up that prevented signatures being updated.

[Tanuki Tales]

Not submitting the Ghostblade then Gr8?

[Adam1949]

Aww... it looked really fun, too :smallfrown:

Can someone give me a quick overview, or is that not allowed in the contest? I can never remember.

[Tanuki Tales]

Aww... it looked really fun, too :smallfrown:

Can someone give me a quick overview, or is that not allowed in the contest? I can never remember.

I try to coax you guys into reviewing each other every contest. :smalltongue:

I think it looks solid, I just wonder if what the race has gained is worth that feat slot and skill rank per level. A 2nd level spell as an SLA is pretty nice.

[Adam1949]

I try to coax you guys into reviewing each other every contest. :smalltongue:

I'm not very good at balance or seeing flaws in things, so I'm not too good at doing reviews, or thinking about how "Class A" interacts with "Feat B" and "Spell C" to make "Combo D".


I think it looks solid, I just wonder if what the race has gained is worth that feat slot and skill rank per level. A 2nd level spell as an SLA is pretty nice.

Well, I wasn't sure where to put it on the spectrum. The stats make them a good choice for Monk (if monk was ever a good choice in Pathfinder) and for Cleric or Druid (which is ALSO not a good idea for balance issues), they gain an SLA that might grant them a nice crit range if they chose, say, a Kukri or a Scythe as their Weapon of Choice, two (albeit weak) feats, and a better version of a Halfling trait... hmm...

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm not very good at balance or seeing flaws in things, so I'm not too good at doing reviews, or thinking about how "Class A" interacts with "Feat B" and "Spell C" to make "Combo D".


Well, I wasn't sure where to put it on the spectrum. The stats make them a good choice for Monk (if monk was ever a good choice in Pathfinder) and for Cleric or Druid (which is ALSO not a good idea for balance issues), they gain an SLA that might grant them a nice crit range if they chose, say, a Kukri or a Scythe as their Weapon of Choice, two (albeit weak) feats, and a better version of a Halfling trait... hmm...

I'd remove the scaling bit on the save and call it a day. It's not as good as a human and it's not terrible, so that should be a good balance point for any race.

[Adam1949]

I'd remove the scaling bit on the save and call it a day. It's not as good as a human and it's not terrible, so that should be a good balance point for any race.

Alright, thanks! I mostly just wanted a reason to be able to use Spiritual Weapon and a Soulknife at the same time.

[gr8artist]

Yes, I deleted the Ghostblade, and present instead... The MAGEBLADE. Which is totally different and way better, despite a certain similar simplicity in the name.
An interesting way around the daily energy pool mechanics, at least.

[Stake A Vamp]

soooo, new forum-y thing.

im not sure i like it.

so, anywho, when will the winners of Third Law be announced, and the trophies be distributed?

[Tanuki Tales]

so, anywho, when will the winners of Third Law be announced, and the trophies be distributed?

They were announced (I think) and trophies will be on indefinite hiatus/back order. The program I used to make the trophies had its trial run out, so I can't really whip them up like I used to. Me and Gr8 are currently working on a new trophy template with a new, free-to-use program.

[Milo v3]

They were announced (I think)
I don't remember it. Anyone have a link, I can't even find the thread using google.

[Adam1949]

It wasn't announced, but I'm pretty sure the order was Veteran, Rockstar, Awakened, Furious? I think? It definitely wasn't announced though, I'm just trying to remember the numbers.

[Tanuki Tales]

It wasn't announced, but I'm pretty sure the order was Veteran, Rockstar, Awakened, Furious? I think? It definitely wasn't announced though, I'm just trying to remember the numbers.

That's not Third Law.

[Adam1949]

That's not Third Law.

Oh, derp, I read 'the last contest' and thought it was We Built This City that we were talking about. My apologies!

[Tanuki Tales]

I hereby table the issue concerning voting threads, the amount of votes and lack therefore of. I bring to motion that in the event that less than 5 votes have been casted, that we keep the thread open till the 5th vote is obtained and then for three more days after. In the event that 5 votes are not reached by the point in time that the current contest ends, the amount of votes cast already will stand.

All in favor?

[gr8artist]

Aye.
I was just about to ask if voting was still open for WBTC.
Third Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317432-GiTP-Pathfinder-Grab-Bag-Competition-XXII-Third-Law&p=16709426&viewfull=1#post16709426)... Sorry it's centered on my post. Still figuring out the new thread links

[Adam1949]

I like that last caveat, as it means that we won't have contests going un-voted for eternity. I agree to this motion, here here!

[Tanuki Tales]

Aye.
I was just about to ask if voting was still open for WBTC.
Third Law (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317432-GiTP-Pathfinder-Grab-Bag-Competition-XXII-Third-Law&p=16709426&viewfull=1#post16709426)... Sorry it's centered on my post. Still figuring out the new thread links

I forgot to link the voting thread to the main thread...bah.

Anyways, there was a winner, but it looks like I didn't announce it because that was around when my program tanked.

Don't worry though folks, the new trophies should be completed in the next few days, so things'll return to normal.

[gr8artist]

Third law was never closed. You extended the voting period, and we got one more vote, and then it got pushed aside for new contests. I bumped it and fixed the table so you could read it easier, but I didn't re-tally any votes.

[Zaydos]

I'm going to say Aye and then figure out who to vote for because I forgot to do so.

[Tanuki Tales]

While we're at it, let's move motions to require only three carrying opinions. I don't know if we even have five people most months to make a majority, let alone try and stand opposed.

[Milo v3]

I also agree with the waiting for the 5th vote thing

*Immediately remembers to go to vote in the current voting thread*

[Tanuki Tales]

Then the motion carries.

Any other motions to be brought to the table's attention?

[gr8artist]

Yes. He's leaning a little to one side, and I can't keep shoving books under this leg to fix it. Make him stop.

Also, I wanted to mention to you guys that I'm starting a PBP campaign on these forums. Anyone interested?

[Tanuki Tales]

Yes. He's leaning a little to one side, and I can't keep shoving books under this leg to fix it. Make him stop.

:smalltongue:

Seriously though guys, if you having to mention or you want changed or whatever, bring it up.


Also, I wanted to mention to you guys that I'm starting a PBP campaign on these forums. Anyone interested?

I'll need to hear more specifics.

[gr8artist]

I'm so glad people are voting again.


I'll need to hear more specifics.
Pardon me while I break out my awesome foreign language skills...

¡Beholdo el Siggo!

[Tanuki Tales]

So, Gr8 has got me the final copies of the new trophies and I'm ready to start churning them out. I have stuff on my comp from XXI; is that where the back order begins?

If you haven't voted, please remember to do so while the time window is open (though I don't believe we've reached 5 votes yet).

I would also like to plug that I'm doing a feat cost system project for Pathfinder that you've probably seen floating around and of course there's my house rules as mentioned in my sig.

[gr8artist]

There are 5 votes in for the WBtC competition, though more are welcome, of course.

[Tanuki Tales]

Congrats to the winners all.

Now, seriously, where did I leave off with trophies?

[gr8artist]

I'm not sure. I would suggest starting with Third Law, as I seem to remember not getting them in a while.

[Phillammon]

Apologies for the off-topic comment, but first time entrant here, could I get someone to cast a critical eye over the Instinct Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17294655&postcount=12)? I suspect it may be utterly screwed power wise, amongst many other things, hence asking.

Thanks!

[Tanuki Tales]

Apologies for the off-topic comment, but first time entrant here, could I get someone to cast a critical eye over the Instinct Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17294655&postcount=12)? I suspect it may be utterly screwed power wise, amongst many other things, hence asking.

Thanks!

I'll definitely do some rundowns this afternoon/evening, but first thing: Please remove your image. The sticky was taken down, but it's against forum copyright rules to use an image without explicit permission of the copyright owner.

[Phillammon]

Done, apologies, I should really have realized that.

EDIT: Unrelated again, are there currently any plans to fix the tables in the OP(s) or has that been deemed a lost cause?

[Tanuki Tales]

Done, apologies, I should really have realized that.

EDIT: Unrelated again, are there currently any plans to fix the tables in the OP(s) or has that been deemed a lost cause?

It depends on whether or not folks update their previous entries. I don't want to fix the tables, only for them to link to broken tables.

Speaking of tables...

Gr8...how did you get color?!

[Phillammon]

I'm guessing


[TABLE="class: head alt1 alt2 thick_outer_border_grid"]

has something to do with it.
Checking:


















EDIT: And confirmed.

EDIT AGAIN: the alt1 alt2 bit is what gives it the colour.

[Tanuki Tales]

That...that is just wonderful to have again. :smallfrown:

Anyways, here are the rundowns, starting with the Mageblade!


Grammar
You forgot "to" in the first senstence of Wand Siphon, between wand and augment.
There seems to be missing text for Spellsiphon

And I'm going to stop here, because I'm not sure how much is actually missing from the class.



Moving on to the Instinct Disciple!


Grammar
In the second sentence of the flavor text, you have one more "and" than is necessary.
Though not required, a semi-colon connecting the second to last sentence and last sentence of the flavor text may make it flow better.


Notes
This...is one of the most beautiful pieces of homebrew that I've ever seen. It's simple, elegant, intuitive and amazing. You're a new face to this contest and website and I will be watching you with great expectations for what you produce.
I feel like many of the bonuses given by the Instinct Tricks should scale at a rate of +2 per 1 point and cap out at +10. This gives more bang for your buck when you don't have a large Instinct Pool while curtailing abuse by those builds that optimize Dexterity through the roof.
Unbidden Spell is honestly odd. This class doesn't get spells and isn't set up such that spellcasters would be an attractive entry choice.
I understand the mindset behind Dodge and Riposte, but characters aren't going to miss a Touch AC attack most of the time.

[Phillammon]

That simultaneously delights and terrifies me, thanks. I've made the grammar changes, apologies for letting those slip through. Regarding Unbidden Spell, the intention was to give classes like Magus a good way in, but you're entirely right, it doesn't really fit. Regarding the scalings, I honestly had no idea where to set the power of an Instinct point, changed them around as you suggested. With Dodge and Riposte, I'm not entirely sure how to change it around. I've changed it to a flat -3 AC penalty, but I feel like that's a bit of a cop out...

In any case, thanks a bunch for the feedback! Hope the edits look better!

EDIT: Just had a moment of clarity towards a possible way to play it, would making it touch AC but giving a dodge AC bonus in return be a viable alternative?

[3WhiteFox3]

I've put up an incomplete version of the Perfect Blade. It is a mesh of a bunch of different ideas that I was working for the contest. So I'm going to do some editing and hopefully add some more meat to the class' flavor. I've got an idea in my head, but I need some sleep before I can do anything with it. It also needs the meat of the class, the invocations.

If anyone wants to make suggestions about the chassis, that would be great, but it is still a work in progress. It's a mix of melee fighter, monk and invoker; trying to make the invoker equivalent of a gish.

[gr8artist]

This month is looking like a good one.
I believe my entry is fully functional. I can add more styles and more spells to his list(s), but he should function as is. Basically, he drains power from his weapons to use his abilities and SLA's.

[Phillammon]

I'll readily admit I probably don't fully understand the intricacies of what's going on, but is there a real reason to continue through with Mageblade to level 10? (Apologies if I missed something obvious, I'll admit I only took a cursory glance over it)

[Zaydos]

Question: Would a (CE) major artifact sword and the three types of undead it can create by killing things be acceptable as an entry?

[Stake A Vamp]

Had some fun formatting my entry.., I like the new system (heresy, I know)
I will finish tomorrow, because it is almost eleven, and those vampires won't stake themselves (well, except or that one clumsy dude who tripped in the park, but otherwise:smallbiggrin:)

[gr8artist]

Zaydos, I think that would fall under the creature entry type, so I don't see why not.
On that topic, I've been debating proposing an item/equipment entry type, though I can't think what the parameters might be for a complete entry.

[Tanuki Tales]

Zaydos, I think that would fall under the creature entry type, so I don't see why not.
On that topic, I've been debating proposing an item/equipment entry type, though I can't think what the parameters might be for a complete entry.

I think only Zaydos' artifact idea would be a valid format for that. Artifacts require a good deal of fluff and mechanics behind them, which would bring them in line with a template or an archetype.

[DawnbringerSO]

Oh my, this forum is back up now? It was down for SO long.

I think it looked better before.

Edit: I was going to vote for the previous competition, but the site was down.

[gr8artist]

Phill, I've taken your comment into account and added a reason to go to level 10: the Accumulated Reserve, a pool of daily points that he can siphon for his abilities, which refreshes at a rate of 1/hour by trickling magical energy from his items into himself.
Does the class seem complicated, or its mechanics difficult to grasp? It was originally supposed to be so simple; siphon a flaming property from a flaming weapon to cast a fire spell... but now it's gotten somewhat more elaborate than I intended.

[Stake A Vamp]

So, my entry is complete and open for review (which i would appreciate)

This whole entry is a Game Of Thrones shout-out, so, any GoT fans out there?

[Tanuki Tales]

So, my entry is complete and open for review (which i would appreciate)

This whole entry is a Game Of Thrones shout-out, so, any GoT fans out there?

Fear cuts deeper than swords. :smallamused:

[ShiningStarling]

Just posted my submission. This is my first try with Pathfinder, please critique honestly and point out critical errors!

[Phillammon]

As a disclaimer, take everything I say with a pinch of salt, I am liable to not have a clue what I'm talking about.

Good god, that's a scary list of requirements. Seven feats means minimum level 13 (assuming you're not getting any of them free) for a nonhuman nonfighter, and given caster levels are a requirement for at least one of the feats, I'd assume nonfighter. The 13 skill ranks mean that too, I guess, but still it feels like quite a specific set of investments to the tune of "you must build exactly this way to qualify", which feels a bit off to me.

One-handed sword could possibly use being more precise, particularly given the whole exotic weapons thing. Unless that's intended, in which case would proficiency in all one-handed or light weapons dealing slashing damage or similar do the trick?

That skill list seems quite extensive for a 4 + INT mod class, but I may be overreacting, most of them seem to make sense with flavour.

You left in the default CLASS NAME in the class abilities, may want to change that.

The wording of magic hands blindsided me a bit. Again, this may just be me being stupid, but is it equivalent to saying something like "When using one-handed swords as thrown weapons, you may use your Perform (Juggle) ranks in place of your base attack bonus" with possible modification for adding cha bonus instead of dex (though cha seems like an odd stat for perform (juggle) but hey)

Magic gloves I found impenetrable, but I'm not even slightly familiar with the magic item creation rules so I'll assume it's solid and move on. It looks like you can basically enchant weapons on the fly using your gloves with a set selection of enhancements, this makes sense.

Flick of the Wrists looks suspect to me, partially because quick draw isn't on the requirements list- you can't full make more than one attack with thrown weapons without it, unless I've misinterpreted something somewhere. Also, if it's possible to substitute a perform (juggle) check with magic hands, as currently written, the attack bonus penalty appears to have no effect, effectively (I may again be misinterpreting, sorry)

Spell Juggling- "if the target is a spellcaster"- how do you plan to get caster level 5th without being a spellcaster? Outside of that, seems good, except it's unclear what happens with cast times. Or rather, it's clear, but it seems utterly broken.

Make it Rain- explicitly giving a spell it emulates (ie summon weapon) may be worth doing, and may save time- the fact that the capstone appears to function as a level 1 spell may be of note, though. The spell juggling thing seems a tad ambiguous- is it one spell per attack, or unlimited spells using the swords as channels, or something else altogether?

All in all, seems coherent and cohesive, and while I do have criticisms I may be barking up the wrong tree, so... yeah. That's my two cents.

[Zaydos]

Gonna say my initial idea just doesn't fit the theme well enough (went more and more about sword and violence and not about martial arts); will try to think of another that fits it better.

[ShiningStarling]

Good god, that's a scary list of requirements. Seven feats means minimum level 13 (assuming you're not getting any of them free) for a nonhuman nonfighter, and given caster levels are a requirement for at least one of the feats, I'd assume nonfighter. The 13 skill ranks mean that too, I guess, but still it feels like quite a specific set of investments to the tune of "you must build exactly this way to qualify", which feels a bit off to me.

Hmm, yeah the skill I was off on, i meant 10 levels of taking the skill, so lowered that to 10 ranks. Took out Deadly Aim as a feat req, cause yeah that was a heavy feat tree, just PF feats are SO COOL! I got a little carried away :smalltongue: It was intended for 5 spellcaster levels and 5 fighter levels to take the class, and pretty tightly packed for it, so loosening up is good.


One-handed sword could possibly use being more precise, particularly given the whole exotic weapons thing. Unless that's intended, in which case would proficiency in all one-handed or light weapons dealing slashing damage or similar do the trick?

Able to use one-handed exotic swords is intentional.


You left in the default CLASS NAME in the class abilities, may want to change that.

Woopsie!


The wording of magic hands blindsided me a bit. Again, this may just be me being stupid, but is it equivalent to saying something like "When using one-handed swords as thrown weapons, you may use your Perform (Juggle) ranks in place of your base attack bonus" with possible modification for adding cha bonus instead of dex (though cha seems like an odd stat for perform (juggle) but hey)

Yeah that's basically it, though it's easier to get skill pluses than attack bonuses :smallsmile:


Magic gloves I found impenetrable, but I'm not even slightly familiar with the magic item creation rules so I'll assume it's solid and move on. It looks like you can basically enchant weapons on the fly using your gloves with a set selection of enhancements, this makes sense.

Actually forgot a clause there, lemmie revise real quick...


Flick of the Wrists looks suspect to me, partially because quick draw isn't on the requirements list- you can't full make more than one attack with thrown weapons without it, unless I've misinterpreted something somewhere. Also, if it's possible to substitute a perform (juggle) check with magic hands, as currently written, the attack bonus penalty appears to have no effect, effectively (I may again be misinterpreting, sorry)

You are absolutely right, people should very much consider taking Quick Draw when taking this class(I don't want to put another feat req in, but I may yet). It should be noted that the ability is also applicable in melee.


Spell Juggling- "if the target is a spellcaster"- how do you plan to get caster level 5th without being a spellcaster? Outside of that, seems good, except it's unclear what happens with cast times. Or rather, it's clear, but it seems utterly broken.

Ummmm, yeah it might be rather broken. Lemmie fix the wording there. Also I couldn't remember if Artificers were a thing in PF, who can get the craft feats without spellcasting, so I accounted for them.


Make it Rain- explicitly giving a spell it emulates (ie summon weapon) may be worth doing, and may save time- the fact that the capstone appears to function as a level 1 spell may be of note, though. The spell juggling thing seems a tad ambiguous- is it one spell per attack, or unlimited spells using the swords as channels, or something else altogether?

That definitely needs rewording, dear god that is not clear at all rereading it. Thank you for pointing that out.


All in all, seems coherent and cohesive, and while I do have criticisms I may be barking up the wrong tree, so... yeah. That's my two cents.

Thanks! I appreciate it :smallsmile:

[Stake A Vamp]

also, in addition to the standard P.E.A.C.H. (we're still using that term, right?) I'm trying to get the hang of tiers, and so, could anyone give me a tier estimate (i was going for 3-4, and think i might have gotten 4-5)

thanking you in advance
-Stakey the Vampire Slayer

[ShiningStarling]

also, in addition to the standard P.E.A.C.H. (we're still using that term, right?) I'm trying to get the hang of tiers, and so, could anyone give me a tier estimate (i was going for 3-4, and think i might have gotten 4-5)
I would say 4-5 is accurate, it has a bit of a spread as far as skills required for features, and its features are good but not powerful. I'd say a solid 4, maybe low 4.

Also I have tweaked a bit of my entry, constructive criticism is always welcome :smallsmile:

[Tanuki Tales]

@Stake: The tier system was never intended to be applied to PrCs and doesn't translate well to them unless they're self contained, and not even then. I haven't taken a look at yours yet, but assuming nothing crazy and assuming normal mundane stuff, it's probably not above tier 4.

@Obliv: Is your image specifically free-use/open sourced or do you have permission to use it from the photographer who took it? Otherwise, you unfortunately need to remove it.

[ShiningStarling]

Ah! Apologies for that. I have removed it. I didn't really think it fit anyway, I was hard pressed to find a picture ^^; Anyway sorry again, didn't mean to poke the copyright beast.

[gr8artist]

So, I had an idea for a feat that I thought I could turn into a fun PrC. Something with only 5 levels, most likely, and very similar to the Exotic Weapon Master from 3.5
Basically, it's a PrC (or maybe Archetype) that specializes in using uncommon weapons, and gets bonuses against opponents that don't know how to defend against his strange attacks.
I feel like such an entry would be more in line with the current theme, and a lot simpler/efficient than my current, elaborate entry, the Mageblade.
Thoughts?
I could keep the Mageblade (MB), run the Exotic Master (EM) in the general homebrew section outside of the contest.
Or I could swap out the MB for the EM to better fit the theme of this month's contest.
Or I could make the perks for the EM into one of the MB's styles.
Or I could throw up the EM and let you guys pick which of the two should remain
Or I could stop asking stupid questions and actually critique someone.

Seriously though, I mean to critique some time this week. (Week, Week, rhymes with Critique)
Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[Phillammon]

Personally, I like the mageblade, but the Exotic Master sounds like it may fit the theme more- I'd personally go for the "put up both, pick one" option, though I'm probably not the best person to ask. I also intend to do a brief critique of everything at some point, for the record.

[gr8artist]

I have a fully functional Exotic Expert PrC written and submitted. I like it a lot; it's simple and efficient, with flavor and adherance to the theme.
I'm strongly leaning toward the EE over the Mageblade to use as my entry this month.
I have a few questions, however.
What are your thoughts? Are the abilities balanced? Should I move any of the exploits around? A full 5th level EE gets 7 exploits. He may choose Greater or Lesser exploits, but cannot have more Greater Exploits than his intelligence modifier. Greater Exploits are supposed to be a little better than a feat, while Lesser are supposed to be a little weaker than a feat. Granted, I think the class is a little overpowered when compared to melee; I'd guess it's a T4 class, quite proficient at combat but not much else.

[Tanuki Tales]

Let me finish training 5 Dedenne and I'll get right on the trophies and hopefully a rundown or two.

Edit:

Trophies are currently being sent out. Everyone, please take this moment to give gr8artist, who has proven his username is not just a colorful handle, a round of applause for giving us the templates for these beautiful new trophies!

[Stake A Vamp]

Lets play the Reviews game... I'll start!


Nice fluff, very nice fluff:smallbiggrin:. The tattoos were a nice touch.
Wis and Con, but no love for Cha:smallfrown: (it makes sense, I simply have too much sympathy for Charisma's plight)
type, size, speed languages all check out
any reason no exotic weapons for weapon of choice (they aren't that powerful usually, and they can be very fun)
SLA is cool, even if it is 2nd level, seems very Balanced.

the Favoured class options for the magus, druid, Barbarian, and Soulknife are very cool


nice quote, good fluff

hit die checks out

requirements are good, the last ones interesting (good interesting)

fighter BAB, Good Ref and Will saves, seems to fit the adroit warrior template

Meditation is how you regain instinct... Okay.

very good list of instinct tricks

dodge and riposte is a little under-powered, maybe increase the AC bonus

perfected counter-strikes is cool, maybe, as it is a capstone and this is a combat class, reduce the Instinct points required

I'll finish later... It's late.

also, im a lousy reviewer

[ShiningStarling]

Trophies are currently being sent out. Everyone, please take this moment to give gr8artist, who has proven his username is not just a colorful handle, a round of applause for giving us the templates for these beautiful new trophies!

Yaaaay! :D *applause*

[Phillammon]

May as well try to actually do this, considering how long ago I promised it, so here goes. Not that I mean to pretend I have sufficient knowledge or anything along those lines to make informed feedback, but hey, I'll do my best.


Really, really like the flavour here.
Knowledge DC on reading tattoos feels a bit low, but knowledge is one of those tricky ones.
The religion is interesting, again, really like it.
Focus, specialization and spiritual weapon seems like too much power early on, definitely when compared to humans, but then again set ability score bonuses end up as the tradeoff, I guess.
Favoured Class Bonuses look cool, though I can't help feeling the fighter's seems out of place unless you're looking to develop your character as finding a new soul-weapon. Which granted, makes sense, but doesn't sit well with me for some reason.



Evidently unfinished, hopefully it'll get done before the deadline
So far, looks like a mix of Monk and Warlock, which is interesting. In fact it actually refers to itself as a monk at one point, that may be a copy paste issue (in martial philosopher)
I've been told as a rule of thumb non-casting classes should never have dead levels. I've also been told casting classes should never have full BAB progression. I'm honestly not sure whether Invoking counts as casting, but either way, one of the rules is being broken, in my mind.
Strike effects look interesting, particularly in conjunction with an armed flurry attack- the possibility of applying multiple conditions in one fell swoop sounds good. Ideally, a list of Strike Effects would be nice, but looks good so far. May be worth switching the list of levels to "At 2nd level, and every third level thereafter" or something like that.
That capstone looks incredibly powerful, though it may be less good in practise than on paper, I honestly don't know. One thing to note is that some beneficial effects grant saving throws, and for that matter "beneficial effects" is a bit ambiguous in general, but yeah.
I guess most of this hinges on just what the invocations are. I could see it going either way, honestly- I'm also intrigued as to the fluffwise explanation for this. So yeah- Invocations list, go!



I admit I don't know much ASoIaF, but I'm almost certain this class is a reference to it, so I'll bear that in mind.
It seems odd that you get weapon proficiencies when you have to have weapon focus to enter the class- in fact, the entry requirements seem a bit daunting in general. I'm guessing the last requirement is a reference, again, so it can slide as a Special style requirement, I reckon.
Holy multistat dependency, batman... you want Strength for damage and attack rolls (or if you're finesse-ing, Dexterity too...), Intelligence for Clever Manoeuvring, Charisma for the bluff and intimidate checks on My Sword Speaks the Truth and Fear Cuts Deeper, and Wisdom for Insight... it may be worth streamlining some of those together. Clever Manoeuvring, of the lot, seems most out of place there, though I appreciate the rest can be made up by skills, I guess.
Though it's obvious from context, you've never actually said what the trigger for Not Today is, which may be worth correcting.
Just a feeling I get from the class in general, you're largely requiring light or no armour, but not getting any real defensive options- some kind of AC bonus would probably not go amiss, considering this class seems to be all about taking down big foes- coming to pieces the moment someone looks at you funny would kinda suck, though I appreciate the d8 hitdice kinda help there.



Much of what I said before still applies, as far as I can tell, so I'll be brief here, sorry.
One thing I would like to reiterate here is that barrier to entry is still way too large- I checked, the largest feat cost to entry in any Paizo PrC is Loremaster with 4, but none of those 4 have to be a specific feat- they're drawn from a large pool. 6 specific feats is definitely going overboard, particularly given the requirements of some of said feats.



Janyss Cobb contributing the quote, I can only assume. Flavour's excellent, I really like the feel of the class- he knows what he's doing, and more importantly you don't have a CLUE what he's doing.
Simple but effective class features, simplicity's always appreciated.
I'm unclear on what the feat-conversion rate is like with Exploits. It seems to be that you're going for Greater Exploits being equivalent to a combat feat while wielding a favoured weapon, but a couple of the lesser exploits- particularly Throwing Trick- feel like they're on the strong side- I may be misinterpreting this, however, sorry if so.
No real complaints overall, it looks pretty damn solid!


And that's all! Ferric Paragon, for the record, has really nice flavour so far, but it... lacks substance. I have faith that it's coming, though.

Regarding the Mageblade, gr8, even if it's not being entered, could it be put up somewhere? I quite liked it conceptually.

EDIT: While I'm here, in response to Stake: I'm aiming for a tradeoff value of about one Insight point per attack of opportunity, so I'm slightly scared of lowering the cost of Perfected Counterstrikes- the fact that the way I've put it together means that you can spend your turn meditating, then use the attacks provoked by meditating to make a full attack of your own using Counter-riposte exacerbates this slightly. Let's pretend that that combo was intentional, m'kay?

Regarding the AC bonus on Dodge and Riposte, I can't really increase the scaling without invalidating the active component of Unthinking Dodge, otherwise I probably would up it to be the same +2 to a max of +10 as the others. So yeah, that's my justifications for those two, but I'm definitely open to suggestions.

[Tanuki Tales]

@Phillammon: Since I've read the Mendhi in-depth and have already given a critique, let me comment on your comments. The race may seem to be more powerful than humans, but its the kind of mindset that also views dwarves in the same vein. You can never underestimate what a free feat and free skill points can buy you and what a free +2 to any score can do for a build. Mendhi may make decent mundane characters, but their power pales in comparison to what a human brings to any archetype or role.


Now, time for some run downs!



Grammar
I don't know if it was an intentional misspelling, but it's spelled "Braavosi", not "Bravosi".
The following sentence doesn't read right to me (I don't have Microsoft Office anymore so I can't tell you about the grammar too indepth): "A practitioner of a unique form of sword fighting, a refined form of fencing in which the practitioner stands sideways and wields a slender blade." I feel like it would be better if it was something more like: "A Braavosi Water Dancer is a master of a unique form of sword fighting. "Water Dancing", as it is called, is a refined form of fencing in which the practitioner adopts a sideways stance and wields a slender blade".
In the Insight class feature, you misspelled "their" as "thier". You also forgot to capitalize the word "at", which is the beginning of the sentence it is in.
You need to decide whether Water Dancer is a proper noun or not.
In general, look over your entry. You have several spacing issues that you need to rectify.





Notes
What class did you envision as the normal entry for this prestige class? The skill requirements are pretty steep and not easily entered by either the Barbarian or Fighter. The Rogue fits the archetype concept for a Water Dancer and gets the skill ranks, but that would mean entry wouldn't happen before level 10. The Ranger both enters this class at the BaB level set and has the skill points to buy the ranks, but doesn't fit the archetype. Were you possibly intending some kind of Fighter/Rogue multiclass entry?
Is the restriction on ranks in Craft and Profession an in-joke for Arya?
For the Insight class feature, the Perception check should be 10+CR, not 10+Level. Also, is this precision damage?
Is My Sword Speaks Truth supposed to be a separate action from a feint? It's also a particularly strong class feature so I wonder if it should be the capstone for this class.
Fear Cuts Deeper doesn't really make sense thematically (ignoring that it's very powerful and you don't make opposed Intimidate checks). "Fear cuts deeper than swords" is a lesson that a warrior must be in control of their emotions on the battlefield, as they prove far more deadly than even the blade of a skilled opponent. I would think that either a bonus against Fear effects or even outright Fear immunity would be a better class feature (and as such should be given at a lower level).
Not Today is just like Fear Cuts Deeper, except it's not particularly powerful as a class feature, let alone worthy of being a capstone. I would say change it so that they always stabilize and that once per combat they heal X hit points (maybe something like PrC level + Int mod) when reduced to 0 or less hit points.
This class is seriously MAD, as Phillammon points out. You wouldn't be out of line tying everything back into just Intelligence and Dexterity. Remember, it's bad for casters to be SAD, but not necessarily mundanes.


Unfortunately, I'm out of time and have college coursework to do. I'll do some more rundowns after that.

[Adam1949]

Lets play the Reviews game... I'll start!


Nice fluff, very nice fluff:smallbiggrin:. The tattoos were a nice touch.
Wis and Con, but no love for Cha:smallfrown: (it makes sense, I simply have too much sympathy for Charisma's plight)
type, size, speed languages all check out
any reason no exotic weapons for weapon of choice (they aren't that powerful usually, and they can be very fun)
SLA is cool, even if it is 2nd level, seems very Balanced.

the Favoured class options for the magus, druid, Barbarian, and Soulknife are very cool


-Thank you! Again, I've probably just been playing too much video games, and/or looking longingly at the 3.5 Goliath and their tattoo-things.
-Alas, this gives them the same stats as dwarves. :smallannoyed: I too don't like automatically declaring "-2 Charisma" and originally planned to let this race have a -2 to Intelligence instead... but decided against it because insular =/= stupid.
-I wasn't sure if Exotic Weapon was a good option, but looking back I don't see why it can't be. I'm not sure if I can change it right now, though, sadly.
-A 2nd level, direct-damage spell that is, in my mind, a glorified Magic Missile seemed balanced against other possible SLAs that the Mehndi could have had.




Really, really like the flavour here.
Knowledge DC on reading tattoos feels a bit low, but knowledge is one of those tricky ones.
The religion is interesting, again, really like it.
Focus, specialization and spiritual weapon seems like too much power early on, definitely when compared to humans, but then again set ability score bonuses end up as the tradeoff, I guess.
Favoured Class Bonuses look cool, though I can't help feeling the fighter's seems out of place unless you're looking to develop your character as finding a new soul-weapon. Which granted, makes sense, but doesn't sit well with me for some reason.


-What's with all the "I like the flavor" comments? All I did was steal from and shift up Native American culture, then gave the race names that come from NA and Indian baby name generators. Not that I don't appreciate the sentiment :smalltongue:
-I equated it to the same as figuring out the Knowledge DC to find out about traditional racial attitudes, outlooks, and so forth that is given in the Core book. The fact that anyone can figure out an individual Mehndi's life story by making checks is balanced against the fact that (A) It's one tattoo at a time, and (B) a Mehndi could simply cover themselves in a cloak and remain an enigma.
-Refluffing, yay!
-Two (very meh) feats do not a choice of any feat equate. I'll admit the SLA is quite potent, but then again Aasimar and Tieflings are playable characters and they have 3rd level SLAs and resistance to three elements each.
-Glad you caught the fighter FCB! Considering a Mehndi already is very specialized with his chosen weapon, many decide to at least branch out a little and dabble here and there; never to the same extent as their Weapon of Choice, however.

[Tanuki Tales]

Time for more rundowns!


Grammar
Nothing jumped out at me, but to be honest I was more absorbed into the mechanics to notice.


Notes
I have to be frank with you concerning this Prestige Class; it's excessive, it's wasteful, it's incredibly niche and it's not something I'd really envision most players wanting on their characters. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and I'll do a break down, piece by piece, for it, but that's my initial opinion.
The first thing you need to do is clean up the mechanics language on basically everything class feature. Most of them are far too wordy and read more like fluff than hard mechanics.
The rank and feat requirements for this PrC are just too steep for what it gives and for what little synergy is found from them. I would suggest pruning it down to 4 ranks in Perform (Juggle), a +5 BaB requirement and just Quick Draw and Throw Anything.
Why does this class concentrate so much on throwing swords? You have purposely pigeonholed yourself by making it limited to this when you could have it apply to thrown weapons in their entirety, especially since Throw Anything is a feat requirement.
This class has far too much interaction with spellcasting when its not a central part of the class and gives no real support to casters who take it (except for some broken things). I'm telling you right now that a level 10 caster is not trading access to their higher level spells at appropriate times for this class.
Magic Hands is broken as a class feature. It is trivially easy to pump up a skill check and it scales far faster than an attack bonus does (I mean, by the time you expect this to be qualified in you'd easily have a +22 to your Perform checks). And why did you give this PrC full progression BaB if you never intended it to make normal attack rolls?
Smooth Moves is broken as it trivializes Concentration checks even further, regardless if casters won't be in this class.
Magic Gloves is what I meant when you needed to clean up the mechanics language, it's just too wordy and excessive. This class feature seemingly only exists to justify requiring Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a prerequisite feat (when it should be Craft Wondrous Item). Why couldn't the class just have had a class feature that supernaturally allowed the character to apply enhancements and enchantments to items they throw?
Why does Flick of the Wrist not just grant an extra attack with thrown weapons?
Spell Juggling is just unnecessarily complex and vague in its execution, both from the three different checks to make (which they'll always make) and the wording that seems to remove saves from the spells. Add this into the fact that only a Bard would reasonably take this PrC and you see a class feature with no synergy to the rest of the class' concept.
Make it Rain has all the flaws of Spell Juggling and the added fact that it doesn't mention what kind of action is required to conjure these spectral swords.
With all I said in mind, I think it might be prudent to go back to the drawing board with this class.

Sorry, got timed out again. The Exotic Expert is next, I promise.

[gr8artist]

My PbP campaign has entered combat for the first time, giving me a moment to work on other stuff while the players wait for their turns and whatnot. Anyway, I'm going to do reviews now, since I see everyone else doing them and I feel a little guilty.
Before I forget, however, the Mageblade can be found in my signature, under the homebrew link. And no, the quote did not come from Firefly, though the weapon's name did.

Also, thanks for the recognition on the new trophies. But I was already familiar with the workings of photoshop/gimp, so it wasn't a lot of effort. Tanta deserves just as much praise, because he's been taking crash-course advice from me on how to edit them and how to use the programs.

Goblin and Necril seem like odd choices. I would expect Sylvan, or possibly an elemental language like Ignan, though I can't really say why.
Your skill selection seems a little curious. Knowledge (Local) is usually used in towns and cultures. I'd imagine History, Arcana, Geography, or hell, Engineering. Religion might be the best replacement, though I'd like to hear why you picked Local as the default. Sense Motive seems strange for a culture that has trouble connecting to others. I'd replace it with Survival or Craft (Weapons).
There's a racial trait that makes you proficient with any weapon you create yourself. Not sure if you were aware of this, but it seems strangely fitting.
I would give them the option of taking Exotic weapons as well, though possibly at a loss of weapon specialization.
I like the favored class bonuses, especially for the druid, which might need to be toned down to 1/3. Fighter bonus seems a little weird, since they start with two of those, and you don't usually want to specialize into multiple weapons. Summoner perk is probably overpowered, given the number of attacks an eidolon can make.
All in all, I really like this entry. It's fun, flavorful, and serious. It would definitely make for an interesting tribe to stumble upon in a long forgotten area.
Nice special requirement. It's flavorful and distinct.
Action Before Thought isn't a standalone ability; I wouldn't list it as such. Just keep the Instinct Trick notations in the special column of your class table, and put the description from ABT in that.
Specify that D&R is a free action, because it looks like an immediate at first glance. Also, 1:1 seems a little harsh, though I suppose an average of 15 extra points in dodge is a lot if you nova-out and dodge the one attack that would kill you. I think an ability or trick to increase your dodge bonus to 2:1 would be fine... Edit: Yep, you have one, so bueno.
I would make Cut the Wind a 10':1 point ratio, personally, though maybe keep the first point at just 5'. So +5'/+15'/+25'/etc.
I don't think you need to keep mentioning the ability name within the ability itself. If I'm reading "Interrupter," then I assume I have Interrupter, or the situation allows me to use Interrupter's effects. You dont' need to specify the Instinct Disciple with Interrupter because it's somewhat redundant.
Lightning Shot is clumsily worded. The first part (Quick Draw if they have at least one point in the pool) is fine. The second part needs a little cleanup. You can draw as a free action already, so you only need to specify that by spending a point of Inspiration, you can draw fast enough to perform an attack of opportunity with that weapon if an opponent within its reach would provoke an attack of opportunity from you.
Lunge seems inherently worse than Cut the Wind, except that it passively grants 5' range when not spending energy.
Tense Body might be too good. 3 extra points per encounter, when you normally have about 15, seems like a lot. I would lower it to 2.
All in all, I really like this entry. It's solid, determined, and does one thing VERY, very well.
It's still really hard to see where exactly you're going. I'd love to see it fleshed out more.
This better be good; I currently have a player who's based on Syrio Farel. Fix your "requirements" block. It should be something like the other PrC's have, with a bold category, followed by the specifics. "BAB: +7" is a good example. I do love the special requirement. Nice reference.
I'd give him more skills. Climb and Swim (Bravos is a port town with lots of canals), as well as some knowledges.
Requiring weapon focus in one weapon but then making the character proficient in others is a strange choice. Consider changing WF to (any light blade), using the fighter weapon category to determine what "light blades" are.
What's the action/limitation on Insight? Swift action (1/round) or Free (every opponent ever). I suggest a free action once per round.
Never Falls is a little strong for my tastes. A hefty bonus seems better than blanket immunity. Or, allow her to use acrobatics/reflex saves to avoid trips and bull-rushes. Also, light armor limitation?
Use the phrase "Intelligence bonus" instead of "Intelligence modifier (if positive)" as it's just more concise.
What's the action/limitation for MSStT? Swift (1/round)? And, wouldn't a feint check work just as well, or a bonus to feint? Granted, as it stands right now, with a successful feint and MSStT check, the opponent's AC is reduced to flat-footed-touch (aka 10).
What's the action/limitation for FCD? And please make this not repeatable, or at least not against the same enemy. Or, switch it to a bonus on confirmation/threat range against shaken opponents. Also, why not use the normal intimidation resistance (based on HD and I think Wisdom).
Finish the wording for Not Today. The first time your health falls negative, automatically stabilize and gain blah-blah-blah. Also, FH 5 x 10 rounds is a lot of healing. I would change it to something else, or have the fast healing "shut off" when health reached a certain point. Also, consider the rogue talent that lets you defy death.
All in all, it's a great entry, and I like it a lot, but I think it needs a little refinement.
Use this as your table: TABLE="class: head alt1 alt2 thick_outer_border_grid" ... It makes things pretty. Change TD to TH for any cells you want to be header-style (Dark brown and bold white text).
Your requirements are ridiculous.
Keep in mind that "One handed swords" does not include daggers and many other suitable items. Your best bet would be to pick a weapon category, or a quality of weapons (under a certain weight), or just list out ALL the specific items that your abilities work with.
So, no additional spells per day or spells known, but your caster level increases. Interesting.
Smooth Moves' substitution is overpowered. Skills are easy to optimize, and concentration is not.
I don't like Magic Gloves. There's something weird about a class that requires you to make a specific item. Instead, I would say that any magical effect the Juggler applies to his natural attacks is passed on to his thrown attacks, and that he can create magical items for this purpose, even if the effect is otherwise inappropriate. So, an amulet of mighty fists (keen) would be possible, and would then make all his thrown blade attacks keen. If you're really set on the gloves as an item, list them at the bottom as a new type of wondrous item, in tandem with your entry but not directly a part of it.
Flick of the Wrist is useless. We're already looking at an attack at -10 or -15, and you then want to give him a -3 penalty on top of that? Give him an extra attack at his second highest base attack bonus (-5) instead.
Spell Juggler does nothing for non-casters. Also, the use of a skill check against a variable DC is weird. Would make more sense to instead make a juggling check against AC, with a penalty based on SL. And just have SR still apply to the spell. Does this spell replace an iterative attack? Because if so, I'm using it in place of the crappy FotW attack.
Make it Rain is woefully short on details. How many? What action? What's the benefit (since at this point, weapon expenses are negligible). Assume that I have all TWF feats, and I make it to this level. My attack rolls are garbage b/c I'm a caster, but I can replace each of my attacks with a spell, and all I need is a half-decent juggling check? Yes, I'll take my 6-spell Full-round-action, please.
All in all, it's an interesting entry, but it needs clarity, balance, and attention to detail. It shows a lot of promise, though.
Regarding the Exotic Expert, I've nerfed Throwing Trick a little, and I've reviewed some of the other exploits. Like I said, some of them may need to be moved to a different category.
I hope one of the base classes gets done. I'd love to roll up a Mehndi <blank> 5, Exotic Expert 5, Instinct Disciple 10.
That being said... we should go back through the old competitions and roll up some characters. I'd be up for a deathmatch showdown. The rules would be that each character had to be made from that competitions entries, but may use standard race and base classes if needed.

[Adam1949]

Goblin and Necril seem like odd choices. I would expect Sylvan, or possibly an elemental language like Ignan, though I can't really say why.
Your skill selection seems a little curious. Knowledge (Local) is usually used in towns and cultures. I'd imagine History, Arcana, Geography, or hell, Engineering. Religion might be the best replacement, though I'd like to hear why you picked Local as the default. Sense Motive seems strange for a culture that has trouble connecting to others. I'd replace it with Survival or Craft (Weapons).
There's a racial trait that makes you proficient with any weapon you create yourself. Not sure if you were aware of this, but it seems strangely fitting.
I would give them the option of taking Exotic weapons as well, though possibly at a loss of weapon specialization.
I like the favored class bonuses, especially for the druid, which might need to be toned down to 1/3. Fighter bonus seems a little weird, since they start with two of those, and you don't usually want to specialize into multiple weapons. Summoner perk is probably overpowered, given the number of attacks an eidolon can make.
All in all, I really like this entry. It's fun, flavorful, and serious. It would definitely make for an interesting tribe to stumble upon in a long forgotten area.

Thanks for that advice! Can I still change it before the contest is over, or...?



I hope one of the base classes gets done. I'd love to roll up a Mehndi <blank> 5, Exotic Expert 5, Instinct Disciple 10.
That being said... we should go back through the old competitions and roll up some characters. I'd be up for a deathmatch showdown. The rules would be that each character had to be made from that competitions entries, but may use standard race and base classes if needed.
Oh god, that should be a little game. I would absolutely adore that. Put me down as a vote for that!

[gr8artist]

Yeah, you're allowed to edit, tweak, and rework your entry as much as you want until the contest is over. Just don't fiddle with it, 'cuz that's kinda' weird.

Anywho, we have a lovely PbP subforum here. Anybody feel like maybe starting a campaign? Round robin/one-shot, not a long-term thing? We could playtest our entries, give them a shot and whatnot. I've got some fun short-term quests and dungeons wrote up, and wouldn't mind DM'ing more than my fair share of the games.
We'd give everyone a brief synopsis of the area, objective, or goal, and then we'd roll up characters. We could allow all homebrew, or even ONLY homebrew, and we'd just throw our little group through a scenario. Then we'd decide on the next scenario, roll up new characters, and go again.

[caledscratcher]

oh, shrap, this was something I entered, wasn't it? I should be able to iron out the Ryukyu Mistress by the start of the 5th. And I'm totally up for a total-homebrew PbP. I haven't done a PbP in years, and my current PF group has an incompetent GM. But, I do have a question: would 3rd-party stuff count as 'homebrew'? Because I kind of have a couple gigs of 3rd-party PF stuff on my netbook that I've never been able to use. :)

[3WhiteFox3]

Evidently unfinished, hopefully it'll get done before the deadline

I hope so, I need to work on it, but I keep straining for ideas for my invocations. I'm going to force myself to crank something out by the weekend.


So far, looks like a mix of Monk and Warlock, which is interesting. In fact it actually refers to itself as a monk at one point, that may be a copy paste issue (in martial philosopher)


Interestingly, I was originally going to just call the class Monk and give it options to use either unarmed strikes or weapons. I decided to make the armed version first and come up with an archetype to be more monk-like as it fit the contest better and was simpler to implement.


I've been told as a rule of thumb non-casting classes should never have dead levels. I've also been told casting classes should never have full BAB progression. I'm honestly not sure whether Invoking counts as casting, but either way, one of the rules is being broken, in my mind.


I want to fill in the dead levels, but I'm running out of ideas, and I'm worried about giving the class too much. It's already chock full of abilities as is, and I don't want it to outshine the other tier 3 characters.


Strike effects look interesting, particularly in conjunction with an armed flurry attack- the possibility of applying multiple conditions in one fell swoop sounds good. Ideally, a list of Strike Effects would be nice, but looks good so far. May be worth switching the list of levels to "At 2nd level, and every third level thereafter" or something like that.

I'll clarify the wording and make up some of the strike effects. This is where most of the offensive punch of the class will come from, while invocations will mostly be mobility and self-buffs with a sprinkling of debuffs.


That capstone looks incredibly powerful, though it may be less good in practise than on paper, I honestly don't know. One thing to note is that some beneficial effects grant saving throws, and for that matter "beneficial effects" is a bit ambiguous in general, but yeah.

I believe that capstones should be outrageous considering how few games make it to that level, and that you're only getting it for a short time regardless. It's mostly designed around becoming safer from spells, and spellcasting has already broken the game twice over by this point, this is more of a consolation prize than anything. Beneficial spells and spell-like abilities is intended to allow the character to choose which spells effect him, so as to not completely screw his buffs. I may make it so that he can raise and lower his immunities as a free action that can be taken out of turn.


I guess most of this hinges on just what the invocations are. I could see it going either way, honestly- I'm also intrigued as to the fluffwise explanation for this. So yeah- Invocations list, go!
Pretty much, yeah. Off to work I go.

[gr8artist]

Editing my class: Moved Throwing Trick to the greater exploits, as it grants a feat plus some abilities. Added Combat Efficiency for extra attacks and actions in a round, Spell Deflection because casters are jerks, and Lacerating Edge, for when you want to make your opponent die slowly.

[3WhiteFox3]

Finished three invocations to give people an idea of how I'm handling them. I want them to scale at least to some degree, and are going to be more powerful in general than Warlock invocations. They are also supernatural, so I've been doing some things that you don't often see, even in spells. I'm worried about it being too much, but I'm really trying to make this thing very potent both in combat and out. High tier 3 is where I'm aiming, so it will be more powerful than both the Monk and Warlock intentionally.

[Tanuki Tales]

Twelves days left for this competition, so let's get on to deciding the theme for the next one, shall we?



Proposed name
Theme



Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters



March Madness (needs a new name though)
Lovecraft Mythos



A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs



Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes



That deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt



As usual, the top four runners up from the last voting automatically are in and I've added one myself. We need eleven more themes and everyone initially gets one that they can suggest be added. After all the folks who regularly come in here have gotten a chance to suggest a theme, I'll open things up to allow more suggestions.

[Phillammon]

I'd definitely be up for a homebrew-centric PbP, if one came to fruition, to add my voice to the pile.

[3WhiteFox3]

Twelves days left for this competition, so let's get on to deciding the theme for the next one, shall we?



Proposed name
Theme



Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters



March Madness (needs a new name though)
Lovecraft Mythos



A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs



Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes



That deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt



As usual, the top four runners up from the last voting automatically are in and I've added one myself. We need eleven more themes and everyone initially gets one that they can suggest be added. After all the folks who regularly come in here have gotten a chance to suggest a theme, I'll open things up to allow more suggestions.

Because I Love You | Love in all it's forms (not just romantic).

@Homebrew PbP, I'll throw my hat into the pile.

[Tanuki Tales]

I wouldn't mind an all homebrew game. Though if it was a one-shot, we'd need to be at least level 10, since we do have prestige classes.

[gr8artist]

A Phyrrhic Procedure: Victory and Success at great cost.

Do we have anyone who wants to DM the first game in the Homebrew Test campaign? If no one does, I'll do it.
Level 10 sounds good, and I prefer point-buy, personally.
Should the game be open to outsiders, or comprised entirely of contestants?
I think allowing 3rd party material is fine, unless it's something that's gotten a lot of peer review, as the purpose is to playtest stuff ourselves. Most NPC's should be non-homebrew, so we have a good point of comparison.

[ShiningStarling]

Grammar
Nothing jumped out at me, but to be honest I was more absorbed into the mechanics to notice.


Notes
I have to be frank with you concerning this Prestige Class; it's excessive, it's wasteful, it's incredibly niche and it's not something I'd really envision most players wanting on their characters. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh and I'll do a break down, piece by piece, for it, but that's my initial opinion.
The first thing you need to do is clean up the mechanics language on basically everything class feature. Most of them are far too wordy and read more like fluff than hard mechanics.
The rank and feat requirements for this PrC are just too steep for what it gives and for what little synergy is found from them. I would suggest pruning it down to 4 ranks in Perform (Juggle), a +5 BaB requirement and just Quick Draw and Throw Anything.
Why does this class concentrate so much on throwing swords? You have purposely pigeonholed yourself by making it limited to this when you could have it apply to thrown weapons in their entirety, especially since Throw Anything is a feat requirement.
This class has far too much interaction with spellcasting when its not a central part of the class and gives no real support to casters who take it (except for some broken things). I'm telling you right now that a level 10 caster is not trading access to their higher level spells at appropriate times for this class.
Magic Hands is broken as a class feature. It is trivially easy to pump up a skill check and it scales far faster than an attack bonus does (I mean, by the time you expect this to be qualified in you'd easily have a +22 to your Perform checks). And why did you give this PrC full progression BaB if you never intended it to make normal attack rolls?
Smooth Moves is broken as it trivializes Concentration checks even further, regardless if casters won't be in this class.
Magic Gloves is what I meant when you needed to clean up the mechanics language, it's just too wordy and excessive. This class feature seemingly only exists to justify requiring Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a prerequisite feat (when it should be Craft Wondrous Item). Why couldn't the class just have had a class feature that supernaturally allowed the character to apply enhancements and enchantments to items they throw?
Why does Flick of the Wrist not just grant an extra attack with thrown weapons?
Spell Juggling is just unnecessarily complex and vague in its execution, both from the three different checks to make (which they'll always make) and the wording that seems to remove saves from the spells. Add this into the fact that only a Bard would reasonably take this PrC and you see a class feature with no synergy to the rest of the class' concept.
Make it Rain has all the flaws of Spell Juggling and the added fact that it doesn't mention what kind of action is required to conjure these spectral swords.
With all I said in mind, I think it might be prudent to go back to the drawing board with this class.



Use this as your table: TABLE="class: head alt1 alt2 thick_outer_border_grid" ... It makes things pretty. Change TD to TH for any cells you want to be header-style (Dark brown and bold white text).
Your requirements are ridiculous.
Keep in mind that "One handed swords" does not include daggers and many other suitable items. Your best bet would be to pick a weapon category, or a quality of weapons (under a certain weight), or just list out ALL the specific items that your abilities work with.
So, no additional spells per day or spells known, but your caster level increases. Interesting.
Smooth Moves' substitution is overpowered. Skills are easy to optimize, and concentration is not.
I don't like Magic Gloves. There's something weird about a class that requires you to make a specific item. Instead, I would say that any magical effect the Juggler applies to his natural attacks is passed on to his thrown attacks, and that he can create magical items for this purpose, even if the effect is otherwise inappropriate. So, an amulet of mighty fists (keen) would be possible, and would then make all his thrown blade attacks keen. If you're really set on the gloves as an item, list them at the bottom as a new type of wondrous item, in tandem with your entry but not directly a part of it.
Flick of the Wrist is useless. We're already looking at an attack at -10 or -15, and you then want to give him a -3 penalty on top of that? Give him an extra attack at his second highest base attack bonus (-5) instead.
Spell Juggler does nothing for non-casters. Also, the use of a skill check against a variable DC is weird. Would make more sense to instead make a juggling check against AC, with a penalty based on SL. And just have SR still apply to the spell. Does this spell replace an iterative attack? Because if so, I'm using it in place of the crappy FotW attack.
Make it Rain is woefully short on details. How many? What action? What's the benefit (since at this point, weapon expenses are negligible). Assume that I have all TWF feats, and I make it to this level. My attack rolls are garbage b/c I'm a caster, but I can replace each of my attacks with a spell, and all I need is a half-decent juggling check? Yes, I'll take my 6-spell Full-round-action, please.
All in all, it's an interesting entry, but it needs clarity, balance, and attention to detail. It shows a lot of promise, though.
Regarding the Exotic Expert, I've nerfed Throwing Trick a little, and I've reviewed some of the other exploits. Like I said, some of them may need to be moved to a different category.


I... definitely had the wrong mindset going into this. I may very well rewrite this class entirely if I have the time. Thank you for your weighing in! :smallsmile:

[Tanuki Tales]

We're...we're not voting.... :smallsigh:

[3WhiteFox3]

A Phyrrhic Procedure: Victory and Success at great cost.

Do we have anyone who wants to DM the first game in the Homebrew Test campaign? If no one does, I'll do it.
Level 10 sounds good, and I prefer point-buy, personally.
Should the game be open to outsiders, or comprised entirely of contestants?
I think allowing 3rd party material is fine, unless it's something that's gotten a lot of peer review, as the purpose is to playtest stuff ourselves. Most NPC's should be non-homebrew, so we have a good point of comparison.

It might not be a bad idea to have a round robin sort of game where the GMs switch out after each one-shot. That way, each GM gets to playtest content as well. I'd be up to be on a rotation like that.

[Tanuki Tales]

It might not be a bad idea to have a round robin sort of game where the GMs switch out after each one-shot. That way, each GM gets to playtest content as well. I'd be up to be on a rotation like that.

Count me out then. I haven't played in years and am sick of GMing, to be honest.

[Phillammon]

I'd definitely be up for whatever format, though I should probably make it clear that as of yet I've never GM'd or played PF, so my knowledge might not be up to GMing first.

[3WhiteFox3]

Count me out then. I haven't played in years and am sick of GMing, to be honest.
I didn't mean to say that each player would have to GM. What I meant was having a rotation for GMs to give each one the chance to play. No one would have to if they didn't want to.

[malonkey1]

Alright, for a theme, I suggest "Not your Granddad's Elements," themed around using the chemical elements from the periodic table (as opposed to the Air/Earth/Fire/Water paradigm D&D normally has.)

[gr8artist]

Yeah. My idea is that we run one game/dungeon/scenario, then switch to another DM and roll new characters for the next. No one would Have to DM, as long as we had at least two who didn't mind alternating.
I will offer to DM, as well as play. I'll try and make a recruitment/discussion thread in the pbp subforum later tonight.

Back to the contest: I didn't mean to sound so harsh with the juggler, and I really like most of the ideas. We've been doing this for a while, and maybe our standards are a little High, but never let our constructive criticism dissuade you from participating.
We need more theme suggestions! I didn't realize that PP had made it high enough to already be suggested. I was trying to suggest it, not vote for it, which may have confused some people.
I'll suggest this, then...
A Stranger to Myself - Having a spirit or soul that's not normal for your species
It would include possession, exorcism, and people with animal spirits. Really, any kind of separation or disjunction between body and soul.

[Tanuki Tales]

Proposed name
Theme



Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters



March Madness (needs a new name though)
Lovecraft Mythos



A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs



Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes



That deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt



Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table



A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species

[Stake A Vamp]

Cthubrew F'tagn: H.P. Lovecraftian brews

also, I could GM the homebrew game (if I'm invited)

[3WhiteFox3]

Proposed name
Theme



Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters



March Madness (needs a new name though)
Lovecraft Mythos



A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs



Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes



That deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt



Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table



A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species


Was there any reason that 'Because I Love You' was not included? I was mainly looking for something that covered all four types of love, instead of the type that most people focus on.

[Tanuki Tales]

Was there any reason that 'Because I Love You' was not included? I was mainly looking for something that covered all four types of love, instead of the type that most people focus on.

Because I missed it. :smalltongue:

@Stake: We already have a Lovecraft theme.

[Milo v3]

@Stake: We already have a Lovecraft theme.

I think that was a new name suggestion.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think that was a new name suggestion.

It read otherwise, but an acceptable name.

It looks like Stake is willing to GM for this. Do we want to get a chat room started somewhere to discuss how we're going to do this?

[gr8artist]

Behold! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?346149-PGBC-The-Great-Quest-to-Play-Test&p=17412747#post17412747)

Now we can keep this thread centered on the competition itself.
Ignore the "filled" tag, thats just to keep outsiders out, and can be removed if needed

[Stake A Vamp]

Because I missed it. :smalltongue:

@Stake: We already have a Lovecraft theme.
:belkar: "I think I just failed a spot check"

I think that was a new name suggestion.
yeah, totally, lets go with that...:smallredface:

Behold! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?346149-PGBC-The-Great-Quest-to-Play-Test&p=17412747#post17412747)

Now we can keep this thread centered on the competition itself.
Ignore the "filled" tag, thats just to keep outsiders out, and can be removed if needed

YAY


and my real suggestion was

Saving People, Hunting Things:Supernatural (the show) hunters, monsters, angels and demons

[gr8artist]

Proposed name
Theme


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.



That's 9 total... Just helping out. Don't mind me

Also, I think what I'm going for is for each Exploit my Exotic Expert learns to be roughly equal to a feat in terms of balance. He only gains the benefits when using a favored weapon, and he gains additional perks (making the exploit better than a feat) if the opponent is not familiar with the favored weapon.
The difference between Greater Exploits and Lesser Exploits is that Greater Exploits actually give you a bonus feat, which can help meet prerequisites for other stuff, in addition to being just as good as other exploits. Thus, the number of Greater Exploits he can take is limited.
I'm also considering running the class out to 10 levels, and giving him only 1 exploit per level (10 over 10 levels, rather than 7 over 5). My concern is that this makes the class a little dull, lowers the effective tier (bad for mundanes), and pumps the saves up too high (monk saves with a d10 HD and full BAB w/ 4 skill ranks per level?). I don't want to have to clutter the class with new, fancy abilities; part of the reason I like this one so much is that it's simple and clean.

EDIT: Last time we had a voting round, these were some of the suggestions. I'm posting them so the people (like me) who have trouble coming up with new topics might be reminded of one they'd liked but which didn't make it through. Missing a Common Sense: Entries lack one of the five senses
In Honor of the Giant: Entries based on OotS
Where Giants Tread: Webcomics in general
The Comforts of Home: Reproducing modern conveniences in DnD
To Brew or Not to Brew: Shakespeare
Dracula's Revenge: Vampires
A Time and Place for Everything: Time/space manipulation
My Lucky Day: Luck
8 Days a Week: Calendars and the tracking of time

[caledscratcher]

I Love the Monster: Appreciation for unloved monsters.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'd like to remind folks that it is a viable option to suggest a theme we've already done before.

[Phillammon]

I, Construct- Constructs

[Tanuki Tales]

Proposed name
Theme


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.


I, Construct
Constructs



And that's 11. At this point, I'm giving everyone another suggestion to use.

[Adam1949]

Now Gish is More Like It!: Gishes, AKA martial-and-magical mixes of any sort (Arcane/Divine/Psionic, Unarmed/Melee/Ranged, anything at all).

EDIT: Also changed a couple of things for my Mehndi entry.

[gr8artist]

Where Giants Tread: Comic strips and webcomics

[3WhiteFox3]

In Honor Of The Giant - Entries based on The Order of the Stick webcomic.

[Tanuki Tales]

Not doing this again! :smalltongue:

Are we going to add just "Where Giants Tread" or just "In Honor of the Giant"? They're far too similar and will just end up competing with one another when we could be filling the slot with a different theme.

[gr8artist]

My vote is obviously for the more generic option, since it includes the parameters of the other. Also, the other one only came about from a misunderstanding, did it not?

[Milo v3]

My vote is obviously for the more generic option, since it includes the parameters of the other. Also, the other one only came about from a misunderstanding, did it not?

Completely agree with this.

[gr8artist]

Also, on a side note, I have some non-competition homebrew I'm currently working on, and would like outside input for.
The Mercenary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?346312-Mercenary-(WIP-Reviews-opinions-needed))
He's designed to be a useful and utilitarian mundane class. I only have about half of it written up, but it's pretty simple and easy to see where things are going.
At levels 1, 4, 8, 12, and 16, you gain a Prowess (might change this to Job or Career). You gain passive perks (weapon/armor proficiencies, bonus feats) from each Prowess you possess. Then, you can track your investment in each Prowess through skill ranks in profession (so ranks in "Profession (Soldier)" would improve the effectiveness of your Soldier Prowess. Each Prowess has 4 additional abilities, other than the passive perks. When your skill ranks in the appropriate profession reach a certain level, you gain the new ability.
At 4 ranks you get the first Prowess abilty. You pick up the second at 8, and the third at 12 ranks. If you get 16 ranks in that profession, you get the 4th prowess ability.
At level 20, you get the capstone, which is a retrainable/reselectable benefit chosen from among the Prowesses you possess.
At every even level, you gain a mercenary tactic, the equivalent to a rogue talent or rage power. Some tactics will require a certain number of ranks in a profession.

I like the simple, efficient nature, and I think it'd be fun to play. If we ever get the play-test campaign off the ground, I'll most likely play a Mercenary 5/Exotic Expert 5/Commando X

The Commando can be found in my signature, and is a little more complicated, though a lot more fun. It's almost goofy in the stuff it lets you do, but it's all the stuff we see in video games and in anime, with double-jumping and blasts of energy flying off his sword.

[Tanuki Tales]

Proposed name
Theme


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.


I, Construct
Constructs


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes


Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics



Another 3 to go. =O

[Phillammon]

Tactical Genius- The 36 Strategems.

[gr8artist]

36 strategems? Do I need to google this?

Also, where'd all the excitement about the campaign go? I made a thread, and started putting together a roster, and then... nothing.

[Tanuki Tales]

36 strategems? Do I need to google this?

Also, where'd all the excitement about the campaign go? I made a thread, and started putting together a roster, and then... nothing.

Well, Stake was going to GM, ja? I'm waiting on hearing back on the rules in place and such.

[gr8artist]

Well, yeah, but it's been just you and me talking for a while now. And each DM will have the say on monster PC's in his game, so I dont' think it's something that needs to be set in stone for the games as a whole.
I guess we're just waiting on Stake to let us know what his rules are. If we don't hear anything by saturday night, I'll DM the first one.

[Phillammon]

The 36 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Stratagems) strategems (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheThirtySixStratagems). (First half is wikipedia, second half is tvtropes, which explains it more clearly but is tvtropes, you have been warned)

Player activity looks like it may be a problem on that one, unfortunately.

[Tanuki Tales]

Proposed name
Theme


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.


I, Construct
Constructs


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes


Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest



So, I've thrown another in, so we need just one more.

[Stake A Vamp]

Princesses & Palaces:Royalty.

[gr8artist]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters
1


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
1


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs
1


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes



That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt



Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table



A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species
1


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance



Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.
1


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.



I, Construct
Constructs
1


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes



Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics
1


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
1


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest



Palaces and Princesses
Royalty




Assuming the normal rules (vote for 8/16 in the first round), I'll cast my votes for...

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Cthubrew F'tagn
A Pyrrhic Procedure
A Stranger to Myself
Saving People, Hunting Things
I, Construct
Where Giants Tread
Tactical Genius


Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to plug my new homebrew, the Mercenary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?346312-Mercenary-(WIP-Reviews-opinions-needed)).
I'm trying something new, basing his power on ranks in the profession skill, and I like it so much I might use a similar mechanic in my next entry, if allowed. It will definitely be the base for my first character in the playtest campaign.

[Adam1949]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
That Deviant Smile
Not your Grandad's Elements
Because I Love You
Now Gish is More Like It!
A Day in the Life II
Palaces and Princesses

[Stake A Vamp]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
I, Construct
Not your Grandad's Elements
Stranger to myself
Now Gish is More Like It!
Tactical Genius
Palaces and Princesses

[Tanuki Tales]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters
1


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
3


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs
1


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
2


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt
1


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
2


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species
1


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
1


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.
1


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.



I, Construct
Constructs
2


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes
2


Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics
1


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
2


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
1


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
2




Tallied to here.

[Phillammon]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
Not your Grandad's Elements
Because I Love You
I, Construct
Where Giants Tread
Tactical Genius
A Day in the Life II

[Tanuki Tales]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters
1


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
4


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs
1


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
3


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt
1


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
3


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species
1


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
2


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.
1


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.



I, Construct
Constructs
3


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes
2


Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics
2


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
3


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
2


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
2




Tallied to here.

And I really miss the old table functions.

[gr8artist]

Why so? Other than using more characters and taking a little longer to code yourself, the new tables seem superior.

Also, check the campaign thread.

[Tanuki Tales]

Why so? Other than using more characters and taking a little longer to code yourself, the new tables seem superior.

You can't click columns and change the ordering anymore. So I can't click "Votes" and get it in numeric order.

[Phillammon]

You can, however, add the sortable tag, which allows you to sort it by votecount once it's posted.

[Tanuki Tales]

I seriously hate how I never know when my inbox is full now. :smallannoyed:

[gr8artist]

Don't mind me, just testing the sortable tag.



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters
1


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
4


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs
1


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
3


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt
1


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
3


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species
1


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
2


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.
2


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.



I, Construct
Constructs
3


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes
2


Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics
2


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
3


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
2


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
2




EDIT: Tanta had mis-placed your vote for AStM when he did his last tally (He has only the 1, but you and I had each voted for it). After three people voting 8 times, there were 23 votes tallied.
I have updated this table to include your change in vote, Stake

[Stake A Vamp]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
I, Construct
Not your Grandad's Elements
Stranger to myself
Now Gish is More Like It!
Tactical Genius
Palaces and Princesses

I am changing my vote for

Stranger to myself

to a vote for

SAving people, hunting things

[3WhiteFox3]

Where Giants Tread
Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
That Deviant Smile
Because I Love You
Palaces and Princesses
Tactical Genius
I, Construct
A Day in the Life II

[gr8artist]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters
2


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
4


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs
1


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
3


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt
2


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
3


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species
1


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
3


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.
2


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.
0


I, Construct
Constructs
4


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes
2


Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics
3


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
4


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
3


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
3



Updated, 40 votes total from 5 people.
Tanta, let me know if you want me to leave this alone, but I figured I'd pitch in what help I can.

[Tanuki Tales]

Nah, I appreciate the help Gr8. :smalltongue:

One more vote and we'll move on to the next round.

[dragonjek]

Hi. I've only just entered the contest, but I hope my votes are still valid.

Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
Not Your Grandad's Elements
A Stranger to Myself
I Love the Monster
Palaces and Princesses
Because I Love You

[Adam1949]

@dragonjek: You don't even have to enter the contest in order to vote. Since you have, however, I'm gonna give your entry a PEACH.

Fluff: This... this is really, really cool. A living spiritual manifestation of a weapon... I didn't know how badly I wanted this until now. I especially like the physical description, as well as all of the 'potential name' ideas.
Racial Traits: I like that all four potential forms are balanced well; while the Piercing form might have a better stat lineup than, say, Slashing, the latter has a much better "A Sword Surpassing Swords" effects.
Extant/Manifest Self is really impressive, and well thought-out.
Body of Battle is useful, indeed.
Living Weapon might be a little much; for instance, a Bludgeoning Haz-Adul gets less out of it than any other kind of weapon. It's also unclear in certain points: what type of damage does a multiform weapon deal? And when you say that they are 'proficient in weapons of the same type', do you mean weapon group or damage type?
Alternate Racial Traits: Mere Shade of Glory seems like an outright trap decision. For how much it trades away, the character doesn't get much back.
Onslaught Gigas is a bit iffy; the balance seems off.
Spellborn Body is unclear in regards to the unlimited Cantrip/Orison; is this one of the three that you chose from, or is it a completely different Level-0 spell?
Tally of Ages gives a free feat, putting it on-par with humans and even surpassing them.
Favored Classes: Nothing major here, although I do like some of the more unique traits (the alchemist, for instance, is really awesome in flavor despite any problems with poison).
Racial Feats: I'm not at liberty to rate these, but they all look good to me.


Overall, this is an amazing entry; my best wishes to you, and good luck in the contest.

[Tanuki Tales]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Sorcerous Specialties, Wizardly Ways
Specialized Casters
3


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
5


A Pyrrhic Procedure
Victory and Success at great costs
1


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
4


That Deviant Smile
Entries inspired by art from deviantArt
2


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
4


A Stranger to Myself
Having a soul or spirit not natural to your species
2


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
4


Saving People, Hunting Things
Supernatural (the TV show), hunters, monsters, angels, and demons.
2


I Love the Monster
Appreciation for unloved/unpopular monsters.
1


I, Construct
Constructs
4


Now Gish is More Like It!
Gishes
2


Where Giants Tread
Comic strips and webcomics
3


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
4


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
3


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
4



Tallied to here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
0


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
0


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
0


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
0


I, Construct
Constructs
0


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
0


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
0


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
0



Now we're moving on; this time around you get 4 votes instead of 8.

[Adam1949]

I can only assume you meant we get 4 instead of 8 votes.

Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
Because I Love You
Palaces and Princesses

[Phillammon]

I, Construct
Tactical Genius
Go Big or Go Gnome
A Day in the Life II

[Tanuki Tales]

I can only assume you meant we get 4 instead of 8 votes.

I have no idea what you're talking about. >o>;;


:smalltongue:

[Stake A Vamp]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
Not your Grandad's Elements
Princesses and palaces

yay two of my suggestions (and one I named) got to round 2!:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Adam1949]

Proposed nameThemeVotes
Cthubrew F'tagnLovecraft Mythos2
Go Big or Go GnomeGnomes3
Not your Grandad's ElementsChemical elements from the periodical table1
Because I Love YouLove in all its forms, not just romance1
I, ConstructConstructs1
Tactical GeniusThe 36 Stratagems1
A Day in the Life IIRace-only contest1
Palaces and PrincessesRoyalty2

[dragonjek]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Go Big or Go Gnome
Not Your Grandad's Elements
Palaces and Princesses




@dragonjek: You don't even have to enter the contest in order to vote. Since you have, however, I'm gonna give your entry a PEACH.

Fluff: This... this is really, really cool. A living spiritual manifestation of a weapon... I didn't know how badly I wanted this until now. I especially like the physical description, as well as all of the 'potential name' ideas.
Racial Traits: I like that all four potential forms are balanced well; while the Piercing form might have a better stat lineup than, say, Slashing, the latter has a much better "A Sword Surpassing Swords" effects.
Extant/Manifest Self is really impressive, and well thought-out.
Body of Battle is useful, indeed.
Living Weapon might be a little much; for instance, a Bludgeoning Haz-Adul gets less out of it than any other kind of weapon. It's also unclear in certain points: what type of damage does a multiform weapon deal? And when you say that they are 'proficient in weapons of the same type', do you mean weapon group or damage type?
Alternate Racial Traits: Mere Shade of Glory seems like an outright trap decision. For how much it trades away, the character doesn't get much back.
Onslaught Gigas is a bit iffy; the balance seems off.
Spellborn Body is unclear in regards to the unlimited Cantrip/Orison; is this one of the three that you chose from, or is it a completely different Level-0 spell?
Tally of Ages gives a free feat, putting it on-par with humans and even surpassing them.
Favored Classes: Nothing major here, although I do like some of the more unique traits (the alchemist, for instance, is really awesome in flavor despite any problems with poison).
Racial Feats: I'm not at liberty to rate these, but they all look good to me.

Thank you! Your review was very helpful, and I have acted on it.

I've clarified Living Weapon, and removed the different types of unarmed strike damage (while it may come in handy to crush something, always dealing slashing damage does seem more useful than always bludgeoning). That's been moved to a feat.

I also added a defense buff to the Mere Shade of Glory trait, switched out Tally of Ages's free feat for another ability I thought suited someone ancient, and cleared up that bit on Spellborn Body (they select of the cantrips theyalready know).

I admit, I'm also not certain about Onslaught Gigas; I greatly weakened each siege engine (at low levels, at least), but since they can't make full attacks with their weapon I thought I would make it scale with level to make up for it. The four categories of damage progression end up, at level 20, with 10d4 (canons, bombards, average 25), 7d6 +5 (catapults, ballistae, average 29.5), 13d4 (trebuchet, springals, firedrakes, average 32.5), and 7d8 (rams, average 31.5). Guns bypass armor/natural armor bonuses at close range so I cut their damage, and the 13d4, while having a higher damage cap and average damage than catapults and ballistae, that many dice makes her a lot less likely to roll highly. Rams have the highest damage cap, but they are also the only ones putting her into melee range. I did remove the Siege Mage's superior damage progression, and replaced it with the damage-bonus-from-Profession ability I had previously given to the Merged Haz-Adul as a whole; I also made their ability damage reject healing until 24 hours have passed.

[ShiningStarling]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Not your Grandad's Elements
I, Construct
Tactical Genius

:smallsmile:

[gr8artist]

My own votes:

Cthubrew F'tagn
I, Construct
Tactical Genius
A Day in the Life II




Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
5


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
4


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
3


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
1


I, Construct
Constructs
3


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
3


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
2


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
3

[malonkey1]

Because I Love You
I, Construct
Not Your Granddad's Elements
Tactical Genius

[gr8artist]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
5


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
4


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
4


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
2


I, Construct
Constructs
4


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
4


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
2


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
3



Also, a potential template for Artifacts ~

Artifact Name


Aura: <strength and type>; CL: <CL, ie 20th>; Slot: <slot occupied>; Weight: <in pounds>

Description
<physical description and appearance>
<technical properties and special abilities in a separate paragraph>

Destruction
<How do you make it not exist anymore>

History
<Where did this artifact come from>

Other Properties
<Social stigma and the effects of use not directly related to the item's mechanics>

Ramifications
<what, if anything, your character is subjected to as an effect of using this artifact>



Artifact Name

Aura: <strength and type>; CL: <CL, ie 20th>; Slot: <slot occupied>; Weight: <in pounds>

Description
<physical description and appearance>
<technical properties and special abilities in a separate paragraph>

Destruction
<How do you make it not exist anymore>

History
<Where did this artifact come from>

Other Properties
<Social stigma and the effects of use not directly related to the item's mechanics>

Ramifications
<what, if anything, your character is subjected to as an effect of using this artifact>

[Tanuki Tales]

Shall we vote to bring the topic of artifacts as an entry type to the table?

Edit:

Also one more vote and we do the next round.

[gr8artist]

I vote yes to artifacts. I don't think they'll be applicable on a regular basis, but I think they could be interesting to see. Plus, I've kinda' already done one in an earlier competition.

[Adam1949]

I don't see anything wrong with adding Artifacts into the mix.

[Alchemic Ooze]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Not your Grandad's Elements
I, Construct
Tactical Genius

[gr8artist]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
6


Go Big or Go Gnome
Gnomes
4


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
5


Because I Love You
Love in all its forms, not just romance
2


I, Construct
Constructs
5


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
5


A Day in the Life II
Race-only contest
2


Palaces and Princesses
Royalty
3




Alrighty, next round then. 2 votes this time.

I'll cast mine for Tactical Genius and I, Construct



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
0


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
0


I, Construct
Constructs
1


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
1

[Adam1949]

Ironically, the two ideas with 'Love' in the name did not get much love :smallsigh:

Cthubrew F'tagn
I, Construct

[Phillammon]

Tactical Genius
I, Construct

And I don't know, Lovecraft seems to be doing pretty well...

[Stake A Vamp]

Cthubrew F'tagn

not your grandads elements

[gr8artist]

Tallied to here.

Votes submitted by gr8artist, Adam1949, Phillammon, Stake A Vamp



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
2


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
1


I, Construct
Constructs
3


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
2



Also, lets get those characters rolled up for the playtest.

[malonkey1]

Tactical Genius
Not Your Granddad's Elements

[dragonjek]

Cthubrew F'tagn
Not Your Grandad's Elements

[Phillammon]

Proposed name
Theme
Votes


Cthubrew F'tagn
Lovecraft Mythos
3


Not your Grandad's Elements
Chemical elements from the periodical table
3


I, Construct
Constructs
3


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
3

[Tanuki Tales]

Let me go close the contest. >.>

And one more vote and we'll move to the final round.

[Ilorin Lorati]

Been absent for a few months, but here's my vote:


Tactical Genius
I, Construct

[gr8artist]

Yay! Welcome back!

Let the final round of voting begin! I'll cast mine for I, Construct. I've never done a race that I was really proud of, and I think this theme gives me the better opportunity to do so.
(also, everyone vote in the competition, we've had a lot of good submissions this time)



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


I, Construct
Constructs
1


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
0

[dragonjek]

I, Construct

[Adam1949]

My vote goes to I, Construct.

[Phillammon]

I know I shouldn't, but I feel somewhat proud that my suggestions are popular.

I, Construct

[gr8artist]

Wow, looking a little one-sided, eh, Tanta?



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


I, Construct
Constructs
4


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems
0

[malonkey1]

Tactical Genius

I like the idea of a construct-themed contest, but I like a Sun Tzu theme more.

[Phillammon]

Not to be that guy, but Sun Tzu died around 500 BC whereas the siege of Chencang, which is referenced in two of the stratagems, took place between 228 and 229 AD, so he cannot have wrote them.

Though I admit that a large number of them are directly inspired by his teachings, so I'll shut up.

[gr8artist]

Personally, I think the strategy theme might function better as a general "strategy and tactics" theme, rather than being based around a specific document.
Honestly, either of these two should prove interesting.

[Phillammon]

Agreed, actually, but it seems a little late to change it.

[ShiningStarling]

I, Construct

had some ideas for this one...

Also thanks to gr8artist for the most Hopeful vote :smallwink:
I really did take what you guys said to heart, but I simply lacked the time to revise properly. I may post elsewhere and continue to work on it. Thanks everyone for their support in my first contest entry!

[Ilorin Lorati]

Tactical Genius

[Tanuki Tales]

Since it was mentioned:

Do we really want a "Most Hopeful" category? The name of it covers the same category as "Most Likely to See Play" and what it means is "entry most in need of improvement". Just seems kind of negative, albeit not meant in a negative way.

[ShiningStarling]

I think it was just a joke or a further point for review Tanuki, I was just saying I appreciated the gesture.

[Adam1949]

I would place my vote against it, honestly. Seems like it'd just be a way to give backhanded insults.

[gr8artist]

Yeah, I wasn't intending it to be an actual category. I didn't mean it as an insult, either, but more of a "Please keep working on this one" kind of thing; great concept, but current execution is lacking.

Also: Tallied


Proposed name
Theme
Votes


I, Construct
Constructs
4*


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems (or strategy in general)
3*

[ShiningStarling]

I just googled the 36 Stratagems.... is it possible to change votes? If so I would like to.

[gr8artist]

Yeah, you can change your vote. Let's just keep it to a rare occurrence, yeah?
Tallied to here.


Proposed name
Theme
Votes


I, Construct
Constructs
4


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems (or strategy in general)
3

[3WhiteFox3]

Choosing between the two choices is hard, but my decision is Tactical Genius.

[malonkey1]

Choosing between the two choices is hard, but my decision is Tactical Genius.

That ties the vote so far.



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


I, Construct
Constructs
4


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems (or strategy in general)
4

[Stake A Vamp]

That ties the vote so far.



Proposed name
Theme
Votes


I, Construct
Constructs
4


Tactical Genius
The 36 Stratagems (or strategy in general)
4



I vote for Tactical Genius

[Tanuki Tales]

Is that everyone then?

[Alchemic Ooze]

I, Construct

[gr8artist]

Tied again at 5 and 5. I can get Elch to vote when I get home. Hopefully shell actually finish her next one.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'll give it a few hours and then just flip a coin or something.

[caledscratcher]

Tactical Genius! I'll do my best to finish my entry this time.

[malonkey1]

Tactical Genius! I'll do my best to finish my entry this time.

If anybody ties this up again, I don't know whether I'll laugh or cry.

[Ilorin Lorati]

If anybody ties this up again, I don't know whether I'll laugh or cry.

Both. Definitely both.

[gr8artist]

Hmm. I'd really wanted to do a race this time, but making a strategy themed race will be more challenging than a construct themed race.
I may do a support caster PrC, as it was recently brought to light that we needed more of those.

[Tanuki Tales]

Safe to call it for Tactical then?

And did we ever get a third vote in favor of allowing artifacts as an entry?

[Phillammon]

Aye to artifacts, and if we're going with Tactical Genius, I think I may go ahead and try out the template for them.

[Tanuki Tales]

The new contest is open folks!

Also, if you haven't voted yet, please go do so.

[Phillammon]

Here goes nothing! I think I may have bitten off a tad more than I can chew, but Zhànshù Tiāncái, the Coronet of the Master Tactician (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17500699&postcount=9) is mostly complete. I'm absolutely open to ideas on the weapons (if that's allowed) and feedback in general (come to think, I'd particularly like feedback on whether the history seems appropriate for an artifact, I'm mostly flying blind here).

[gr8artist]

Wow, you certainly tackled the Artifact template with a lot of gusto, I'll give you that. I'll try and give a more in-depth analysis later, but my initial response is that it's too much to put on a character sheet. 36 weapons with stats alone would take up most inventory pages, and for each to have an ability roughly as long as a spell would require a small encyclopedia.
I love the idea and direction, but I'd strongly advise trying to simplify the weapon abilities.

As for my own entry, I'm somewhat torn and stymied.
Most of my ideas are based on strategy as a more general concept. Coming up with something specific to these multiple rudimentary strategies is a lot more challenging. Which is good, it should make for an interesting contest.
I'm thinking I may submit a 2-part entry, perhaps a race and racial archetype, or something to that effect.
My current ideas are ~ A terra-cotta advisor (creature), essentially an intelligent golem designed to record and relate strategies. The advisor would be LN, though loyal to whoever bears a certain crest or signet item, and thus could easily be employed by villains or heroes alike.
A strategist class (PrC most likely, though a class archetype might work better) which chooses 1 chapter from which to gain his abilities, and then gains abilities based on the teachings of that chapter. The problem with this is that I can't figure out how to tie it all together. Something like a cavalier order might work, I suppose, with orders for the "Winning Strategems, Enemy Dealing Strategems, Attacking Strategems," etc...
A race or racial subset, similar to homonculi or constructs, born though arranged pairings designed to spawn the best and brightest leaders, similar to the premise of "Ender's Game."


Currently I'm leaning toward the Ender's Game child prodigy racial subset/racial archetype concept, but I'm not sure whether I should do it as a race or as an archetype.
Maybe make it a base or PrC class... Savant Strategist or something. What are the odds I could get away with a PrC whose entry requirements could be met at level 1?

[malonkey1]

Currently I'm leaning toward the Ender's Game child prodigy racial subset/racial archetype concept, but I'm not sure whether I should do it as a race or as an archetype.
Maybe make it a base or PrC class... Savant Strategist or something. What are the odds I could get away with a PrC whose entry requirements could be met at level 1?

I'd go with a template, honestly

EDIT: For my entry, I'm going for a Troubleshooter Rogue archetype that offers some utility spellcasting and a talent for turning bad situations into good ones.

[gr8artist]

Like, a creature template?
What are the stats for something like that applied to a PC? Does it eat up levels like a high CR creature?
(Basically, a human with a +1 template in a group of level 8's would himself be only level 7)

[malonkey1]

Like, a creature template?
What are the stats for something like that applied to a PC? Does it eat up levels like a high CR creature?
(Basically, a human with a +1 template in a group of level 8's would himself be only level 7)

That how I assume it would work.

[Phillammon]

I now have an intense desire to compare a Level 2 Human to a Level 1 Advanced Human and see what happens.

Regarding the weapons, the intention was that the weapons would be distributed to other people, and only one or two of them actually get used by the wearer, but I guess that's come across poorly due to the ease of access. I can't immediately think of any way to simplify most of them without them sort of losing their relevance to the theme, which doesn't help...

[gr8artist]

I have begun work on my entry, The Master Strategist.
I went with PrC and easy entry requirements, and I'll add in some templates/archetypes to go along with it.
I need an idea for a level 7 ability, and I'm not sure what it should be.
I also need to flesh out my 36 stratagems, defining the following qualities: conditions which must be met, benefits granted, improved benefits, and focus benefits. That's only 144 little bits of rules-legal text... not too bad.

[Phillammon]

Just glancing over, is it intentional that with 16 Intelligence, you will necessarily learn all 36 strategems by level 8? (Given this class appears to mostly focus on INT, it doesn't seem unreasonable to get a +3 modifier)

Solo tactics feels like it may be on the strong side, considering the amount of sheer benefit you get from teamwork feats as compared to regular feats, but I may be overreacting.

Really like it so far, in any case.

EDIT: Nevermind, Focus benefits, I'm an idiot, ignore me on that first point. Though a +6 modifier would allow for every strategem to be known and focused.

[caledscratcher]

I've begun my work on my entry, the blaze beneficiary, derived from the fifth stratagem of chapter one. My current concepts for abilities are AoE Sneak Attack, preventing fire damage from affecting items in an area, and a selection of "Flame Thieveries".

[Tanuki Tales]

Guys, if you haven't voted, please go vote.

[gr8artist]

It is possible to gain all stratagems fairly early, and then to gain their focus benefits prior to level 10.
I am considering making the focus cost an additiona stratagem known, so that with 3 intelligence (4 stratagems learned at a level), you could learn 4 new stratagems, 2 new and 1 focus, or just 2 focus.
As it currently stands, you gain 12 stratagems as a base, and need 24 more over 10 levels to learn all at the basic level. (requires 2.4 intelligence modifier)
To learn all focus benefits, you'd need an additional 36 with the current system, making it a total of 60 over 10 levels, or a +6 int mod needed.
With the debated change, this increases to 96, or roughly a +10 int mod needed to gain focus in them all.
Tables: stratagems known (36 for all basic, 72 for all focused, 108 for all focused with debated change)



Int Bonus


Level
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5
+6
+7
+8
+9
+10
+11


1
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14


2
6
8
10
12
14
16
18
20
22
24
26


3
8
11
14
17
20
23
26
29
32
35
38


4
10
14
18
22
26
30
34
38
42
46
50


5
12
17
22
27
32
37
42
47
52
57
62


6
14
20
26
32
38
44
50
56
62
68
74


7
16
23
30
37
44
51
58
65
72
79
86


8
18
26
34
42
50
58
66
74
82
90
98


9
20
29
38
47
56
65
74
83
92
101
110


10
22
32
42
52
62
72
82
92
102
112




Added a variant of the cavalier's tactician ability to his 4th level, and made a "master tactician" ability for his 7th.
Solo tactics (4th level) is an ability gained by inquisitors at somewhere around 3rd.
Also, I've decided that most of my stratagems don't need "conditions", but only the benefits. Still concerned that having 2 improvements to every stratagem might get a little cluttered. Another option is to make the "advanced" benefit the same for all: When you choose a favored category, you can share that stratagem more easily, or with less time or greater audience.

[Tanuki Tales]

Guys, only a few days left; please go vote for the contest if you haven't already.

[ShiningStarling]

I have submitted my entry, as before I welcome critique :)

[Phillammon]

Hit the halfway mark on stratagems, so I think I'll take up that challenge there:

Concept looks good to me, seems well grounded in the strategems in general- I'd personally cite Clamour in the East, Attack in the West, which is literally "Feint at people" rather than Cross the Oceans and Deceive the Heavens, but that may be just me.

3 feats and 6 knowledge ranks is... pushing it a bit. I'm not sure I can see the justification for Combat Reflexes in there, particularly. They are at least feats that make sense for the role, but it's still a tad iffy to my eyes.

Skills and hit-dice look reasonable.

Strategic Awareness could probably do with being split up into two or three separate abilities- also, the last element of it may need rewording. Class levels doesn't make it clear whether it's all their levels or just their Guileful Striker levels. Otherwise, looks good.

Calculated strikes needs to decide who "they" is, it changes between being the target and the Guileful Striker way too frequently. Interesting ability, though I'm not convinced that allowing it to hit creatures immune to precision damage makes sense- they're immune to precision damage, knowing where to hit them isn't gonna help matters.

Improved Maneuvers looks fun, but it looks potentially abusable. Not sure how, but it feels like it.

...I have no idea what Opportunist is doing there, honestly. That doesn't fit the style as I'm interpreting it, though I may be misunderstanding.

Greater Maneuvers is probably abusable too. Off the top of my head, Drag and Bull Rush would turn very powerful very very quickly here with any allies whatsoever nearby. Fits the character though, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

Oh wow. Accounted For is not fair by any stretch of the imagination. Any roll is way, way too ambiguous to slide, and 3 per "encounter" means that basically any roll you make out of combat could be argued as being boosted by Accounted For. This definitely wants a cleanup.

Capstone looks interesting. Well built, this feels like "literally every attack counts as a sneak attack", though, which is less okay, unless I missed how sneak attacks work. But yeah, looks good!

[ShiningStarling]

Thank you for your input! :D
I have made a few alterations based on it, namely grammar fixes, removing Combat Reflexes as a req, and nerfing Accounted For.

As for the maneuver abilities, they are supposed to be rather powerful, but they require multiple checks to pull off, and the important thing to me is that it isn't a devastating full attack, it's something else to do with your actions. Having options is fun to me :smallsmile:

On Calculated Strikes, yes the grammar was bad, but the basic idea is that it is sneak attack that comes later, caps earlier, and is more applicable to enemies. And for the precision damage thing, yes I suppose it is precision damage, but they cannot make other precision damage apply to the same attack, so no liches are going to get the whole bag of d6s thrown at them, just 4, max.

Again, thank you for the thoughts, they were very needed!

[Phillammon]

Apologies, I'd missed that Feint is a move action if you take improved feint, that solves most of my problems with the Maneuvers abilities. Though I'm not sure how it interacts with the ability to feint as a free action from Flawless Feint, that sounds like the action economy could be taken to pieces a bit, if I've not misunderstood how it works.

[ShiningStarling]

Essentially you are able to move, feint, and maneuver, or feint and full attack, when you reach Flawless Feint. Before then you must be more selective of when you feint, but yes 10th level gives them more actions to play with at once.

[Tanuki Tales]

The flu sucks. The mouth ulcers it caused and which are still around suck more. :smallannoyed:

I'll start getting caught up on things around here.

[gr8artist]

Posting here to attract attention ~
Stake seems to be AWOL from our playtest campaign (The Great Quest to Play-Test), so I'll step in and DM the first game. That gives us 4 players, with 2 or 3 characters rolled up. We have room for some more, if anyone's interested.
My signature has a link for a campaign reference page, which then has character descriptions/roles, contact information, and a link to the OoC discussion thread.

Also, I have a general question about PrC qualifications.
If a PrC has a feat prerequisite, can you take the first level of that PrC at the level you gain that feat? For example, my current class (Master Strategist) has a 2 feat prerequisite, and then a special requirement (which a DM might allow to be included in a backstory). If you play a human (2 feats at first level) could you take the two feats, and make your first class level a PrC level?
If so, then it is functioning as intended. If not, then I'll have to come up with some adjustments.

[malonkey1]

Posting here to attract attention ~
Stake seems to be AWOL from our playtest campaign (The Great Quest to Play-Test), so I'll step in and DM the first game. That gives us 4 players, with 2 or 3 characters rolled up. We have room for some more, if anyone's interested.
My signature has a link for a campaign reference page, which then has character descriptions/roles, contact information, and a link to the OoC discussion thread.

Also, I have a general question about PrC qualifications.
If a PrC has a feat prerequisite, can you take the first level of that PrC at the level you gain that feat? For example, my current class (Master Strategist) has a 2 feat prerequisite, and then a special requirement (which a DM might allow to be included in a backstory). If you play a human (2 feats at first level) could you take the two feats, and make your first class level a PrC level?
If so, then it is functioning as intended. If not, then I'll have to come up with some adjustments.

Well, I'd say yes, considering the same is true of feats.

[Adam1949]

As far as I recall, stacking the effects of feats and class benefits occurs in whatever order is most helpful to the character. So, if you gained an ability that increases your Threat Range by 1 AND held, say, a Keen weapon, then unless the ability outright stated that it doesn't stack, then it stacks on first before Keen applies (thus making Keen better). I would say the same is true of your issue.

... Although I don't think you can take PrCs at 1st level, anyway, regardless.

[ShiningStarling]

My recollection is that You take a level in a class, and then you gain all the benefits of that level, including taking feats. You can take the feats in advantageous order, but you cannot take a feat before taking a level, since you have to have the level to get the feat.

[gr8artist]

Shoulda' just looked it up.

When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.

[malonkey1]

Shoulda' just looked it up.

Oh. Aw. That's kind of a bummer.