Batman vs. Superman (2015)

[ThePhantasm]

So at Comic Con Warner Bros. just announced "Batman / Superman" or "Batman vs. Superman" (title not yet decided) for a 2015 release. Zach Snyder said this is a new Bruce Wayne, i.e. not Christian Bale. The role has not yet been cast.

Thoughts?

I'm super excited!

[Devonix]

Think it's a bad idea. Things like that end up being more about tearing down one fanbase than building up both. And I'm not a fan of Nolanverse Superman anyway.

[ThePhantasm]

There is no Nolanverse Superman. There's only the Zach Snyder / David Goyer Superman.

While I'm sure the heroes will fight, this is a set up for a Justice League movie... they will team up in the end.

[Jayngfet]

Eh. At this point I'm kind of feeling burned out.

How many superhero movies come out that year now?

Four, Five? I mean that year we're getting two from Disney and Marvel, and at least one more marvel property besides. Warner bros. may also decide to cram in another cape movie and there's always some other thing that could come out in the same timeframe.

I mean it feels almost like we'll be getting a comic book movie every other month. This is one of those things where I feel things are getting so jam packed and overcrowded WB and Disney are dooming themselves to failure.

[Ramza00]

Eh. At this point I'm kind of feeling burned out.

How many superhero movies come out that year now?.

Do not lie you would be enthustiac if they made incredibles 2 (pretty much the only Pixar movie where a sequel makes sense instead of being tacked on)

I agree with your main point though

[Cat Dungeon]

That one scene from I am Legend just became even more hilarious.

[Anteros]

That one scene from I am Legend just became even more hilarious.

If I recall correctly the billboard in that movie was in regards to an actual movie that was planned at the time, but production was cancelled.

I for one am excited about a potential Bats vs. Supes movie. Not only has it been a long time coming...but it's the most reasonable way to set up a JLA movie.

Plus, super hero movies are the only ones I think actually able to justify the spectacle of watching in a movie theater these days. I don't need a 50 foot tall screen to watch lovie stories or see some hack comedian make fart jokes...but if the movie is visually interesting I may dish out the cash to go see it.

[ThePhantasm]

I'm so excited about this I can hardly stand myself. Shove cynicism aside, you all know the little kid in you CANNOT WAIT for this movie. :smallcool:

[Cat Dungeon]

If I recall correctly the billboard in that movie was in regards to an actual movie that was planned at the time, but production was cancelled.

It's still hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

Any speculation on a villain? I'd imagine two villains teaming up - one of Superman's and one of Batman's. I just hope it's not the Joker.

[Anteros]

It's still hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

Any speculation on a villain? I'd imagine two villains teaming up - one of Superman's and one of Batman's. I just hope it's not the Joker.

Well they're trying to establish a new Batman...so I see it being at least one of his major villains. Probably a Joker/Luthor team up to get the heroes to fight each other.

[Cat Dungeon]

Well they're trying to establish a new Batman...so I see it being at least one of his major villains. Probably a Joker/Luthor team up to get the heroes to fight each other.

Dude, they just did the Joker in Dark Knight. Enough time hasn't passed for it to be fresh and interesting. How about this series try something new. Not to mention that this is a great chance to do a more fantasical villain. Aliens exist in this continuity. Let's get some Mr. Freeze done right!

[ThePhantasm]

Its too soon to do the Joker, and he's best reserved for a Batman solo film. I'm thinking Luthor and at least one other heavy-duty villain.

[D.KnightSpider]

I dunno what all the excitement is about, this movie came out ages ago. (http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/World%27s_Finest)

Nevertheless, this could very well be a decent flick. I'll keep my eye on it.

[Jayngfet]

Its too soon to do the Joker, and he's best reserved for a Batman solo film. I'm thinking Luthor and at least one other heavy-duty villain.

Batman's heavy-duty is waaaay below even Superman's mid-tier.

I'd go with Riddler if it was me. It's someone who can outhink superman instead of outpunch him.

[Anteros]

If I had to bet, I would say that the primary antagonist of the film will be each other. That's why I'm betting on Luthor and Joker to throw them against each other. It also lets them re-establish Joker without requiring him to carry an entire movie by himself...which will make the transition from Nolan's Joker much less jarring.

[ThePhantasm]

Yeah, I'm not sure who the other villain would be.

[Cat Dungeon]

Batman's heavy-duty is waaaay below even Superman's mid-tier.

I'd go with Riddler if it was me. It's someone who can outhink superman instead of outpunch him.

Most of Batman's villains could out think Superman.

[Hawriel]

Most of Batman's villains could out think Superman.

Clark Kent is a professional investigative journalist. He is a very intelligent man. He his battles with Luther are just as much mind games as punching things. He also continually out smarts Myxlplys continuously.

Batman's rogue gallery have an equal chance of out smarting Superman as they do Batman.

Then again we are talking about Zak Snyder Superman who never went to collage, and wandered around going odd jobs requiring minimum education.

[Dienekes]

Clark Kent is a professional investigative journalist. He is a very intelligent man. He his battles with Luther are just as much mind games as punching things. He also continually out smarts Myxlplys continuously.

Batman's rogue gallery have an equal chance of out smarting Superman as they do Batman.

Then again we are talking about Zak Snyder Superman who never went to collage, and wandered around going odd jobs requiring minimum education.

While I will be the first to say that people really misrepresent Superman as some idiotic flying brick and that really does need to be corrected. It's generally agreed Batman is the smart guy of the pair. At least since "Super Intelligence" has been fazed out of his power set. Though I guess I should qualify that by saying I am not up to date with Nu52, so that may have changed.

Also World's Finest from the DCAU was great. It amuses me that the Joker ends up getting closer to killing Superman than just about any Supes villain besides Darkseid in the show, and he out betrays Luthor. But then I've always been a Joker fanboy.

Anyway as to the purpose of this thread. Cool. New Batman allows to take that mythos into a different path, with less focus on realism. I won't say a bad word against Nolanverse Batman but letting the franchises mingle like this allows for more elements of the character I love to hit the big screen. That and while I will say there were a lot of weaknesses in Man of Steel I do think it has potential to make a good memorable series. It just needs to take a second to crack a smile every now and then.

So, cautiously optimistic.

[Ramza00]

Then again we are talking about Zak Snyder Superman who never went to collage, and wandered around going odd jobs requiring minimum education.
What does college have to do with being an intelligent fighter and out thinking your rogue gallery?

Not saying Zack Snyder's superman isn't intelligent or dumb, we have seen evidence of neither.

[Dienekes]

What does college have to do with being an intelligent fighter and out thinking your rogue gallery?

Not saying Zack Snyder's superman isn't intelligent or dumb, we have seen evidence of neither.

Well he seems to be quite handy at forging papers and creating false identities. He also seems to have picked up journalism reasonably well in order to fool White. So I think we are supposed to infer he is intelligent in his own way.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As Warner Bros has proven comically inept at handling their DC properties I will take a wait and see. I will wait until this World's Finest goes into production.

[SnowballMan]

Do not lie you would be enthustiac if they made incredibles 2 (pretty much the only Pixar movie where a sequel makes sense instead of being tacked on)
I would disagree with The Incredibles needing a sequel. The crux of the story was fixing what was wrong with their family. They fixed it, story over, they get to live happily ever after (even if their happily ever after is beating up bad guys). Now, if they want to do another story in that world, I would be all for that.

[Mando Knight]

Then again we are talking about Zak Snyder Superman who never went to collage, and wandered around going odd jobs requiring minimum education.
And read Plato for fun when he was like 12 or so.

[Jayngfet]

And read Plato for fun when he was like 12 or so.

He's well into his thirties now. He spent like all his time after highschool bumming around on crab boats and washing dishes. He didn't exactly carry around a sack of books on his back.

[Anteros]

He's in his mid 30s by the end of the movie. Most college graduates are like 25. He had plenty of time to grab a degree offscreen.

[ThePhantasm]

Then again we are talking about Zak Snyder Superman who never went to collage, and wandered around going odd jobs requiring minimum education.

Snyder's Clark DID go to *college.

[JoshL]

As Warner Bros has proven comically inept at handling their DC properties I will take a wait and see. I will wait until this World's Finest goes into production.

Any given issue of World's Finest, I would put above any given Superman comic. But I've never been crazy about Supes. That said, I like Nolan's Batman (though I think they get more cred than then really deserve) and I'm pretty okay on Snyder (Watchmen could be crap after the opening sequence and STILL be a brilliant film, and Sucker Punch is widely underrated/misunderstood...think of it as less action film, and more Brazil and it makes more sense).

So yeah, I didn't see Man of Steel. I probably won't. But Superman/Batman? I'll give that a go.

[Scowling Dragon]

I think this is....stupid.

This deserves a slightly higher than average budget fan-movie.

Not something that has a jillion dollars attached.

And my 5 year old self grew WITH me. I never felt like I stopped being him.

[Kitten Champion]

I don't care. For the same reason I don't care about a Justice League movie. I'm sick of both these characters, they've been horribly overexposed in an currently overexposed genre of movies.

If we're stuck with superhero movie after superhero movie as we seem to be, they might actually try developing one of their other properties for once. Like say, Wonder Woman, Blue Beetle, the Flash, Doom Patrol, the Teen Titans, and Booster Gold.

I just can't get excited by these guys anymore.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Any given issue of World's Finest, I would put above any given Superman comic. But I've never been crazy about Supes. That said, I like Nolan's Batman (though I think they get more cred than then really deserve) and I'm pretty okay on Snyder (Watchmen could be crap after the opening sequence and STILL be a brilliant film, and Sucker Punch is widely underrated/misunderstood...think of it as less action film, and more Brazil and it makes more sense).

So yeah, I didn't see Man of Steel. I probably won't. But Superman/Batman? I'll give that a go.

I was talking about all the movies they haven't made.

And how as of this month WB has had exactly 1 DCU movie success not involving Batman. This century anyways.

And did you know they at one point had Joss Whedon all set to write a Wonder Woman script. I vaguely recall it falling through because WB had some notion about doing it in a WWII setting.

Then there's how long Superman Returns was actually in production (Giant Spider!) and how this almost must be what the Justice League project became. I will care about this film when I believe it is actually being made.

[ThePhantasm]

While your skepticism is not ill-founded Soras, I think Marvel's success has put WB's feet to the fire, and with Goyer / Snyder on board this project has a lot more clout and momentum than any of the ones you mentioned. Plus, Nolan's Syncopy will be helping to produce the film, and they have a good track record.

[Carry2]

I don't care. For the same reason I don't care about a Justice League movie. I'm sick of both these characters, they've been horribly overexposed in an currently overexposed genre of movies.
This. I'm not averse to superhero movies in general or even bats/supes movies specifically, but this seems to be symptomatic of the "milking popularity because popularity" aspect of hollywood groupthink which I happen to despise.

If we're stuck with superhero movie after superhero movie as we seem to be, they might actually try developing one of their other properties for once. Like say, Wonder Woman, Blue Beetle, the Flash, Doom Patrol, the Teen Titans, and Booster Gold.

I just can't get excited by these guys anymore.
The DCAU Wonder Woman movie was actually pretty decent. They'll probably get around to live-action versions eventually, but I am sick to death of Snyder systematically molesting good material.

[Devonix]

While I will be the first to say that people really misrepresent Superman as some idiotic flying brick and that really does need to be corrected. It's generally agreed Batman is the smart guy of the pair. At least since "Super Intelligence" has been fazed out of his power set. Though I guess I should qualify that by saying I am not up to date with Nu52, so that may have changed.

Also World's Finest from the DCAU was great. It amuses me that the Joker ends up getting closer to killing Superman than just about any Supes villain besides Darkseid in the show, and he out betrays Luthor. But then I've always been a Joker fanboy.

Anyway as to the purpose of this thread. Cool. New Batman allows to take that mythos into a different path, with less focus on realism. I won't say a bad word against Nolanverse Batman but letting the franchises mingle like this allows for more elements of the character I love to hit the big screen. That and while I will say there were a lot of weaknesses in Man of Steel I do think it has potential to make a good memorable series. It just needs to take a second to crack a smile every now and then.

So, cautiously optimistic.



With brains in the comics they've always been on par with intelligence. Superman I'd call the Smarter of the pair in a pure knowledge base while Batman is smarter in a Figure it out base.

You want something super science built you call Superman, you want something figured out you call Batman Unless it relates to said super science

[Ebon_Drake]

They're thinking of calling it "Batman/Superman"? Really? Maybe I spend too much time online, but that sounds more like a kinky fanfic than an epic clash of superheroes.

[Hopeless]

Zod's body literal physical evidence of alien life and I'm willing to believe Luthor will seize that to reverse engineer ways to combat aliens if they come back.

I am assuming Kal-El's scout ship is now in US hands and being reverse engineered unless he had some way to get it away from them?

So I can see Lex Luthor developing his secret projects and testing them against Kal-El to see if they're worth pursuing and given his amoral nature I can see him experimenting on people and eventually Intergang brings Batman into his schemes since Luthor isn't going to have all his projects based in one city or even on one continent if he can get away with it and I suspect he can!

If Bats gets close I can see Lex framing him and sending Superman after him resulting in your fight, but eventually they're going to figure something is up and once they compare notes they go after Lex or better yet Intergang since Lex will have redundancies in place so he won't fight to the death nor endanger himself as long as he believes his work isn't done.

And what court would sentence him to jail if he can wrangle his way out of the frame?:smallfurious:

[Emmerask]

Eh. At this point I'm kind of feeling burned out.

How many superhero movies come out that year now?

Four, Five? I mean that year we're getting two from Disney and Marvel, and at least one more marvel property besides. Warner bros. may also decide to cram in another cape movie and there's always some other thing that could come out in the same timeframe.

I mean it feels almost like we'll be getting a comic book movie every other month. This is one of those things where I feel things are getting so jam packed and overcrowded WB and Disney are dooming themselves to failure.

Yep pretty much this.

[Aotrs Commander]

I might distantly be more inclined to see this if it looks like it's any good, or at least more so than the Batman movies (though as that's more than "not at all", that's ot saying much), as I find Batman only works for me (aside from Adam West Batman) when he's in company of equals (sidekicks, don't, unfortunately, count) and there's occasionally someone to chew him out when he gets too full of himself; he makes a good foil for other characters and vice versa (most of the time).

That said, I'd rather see movie Justice League or Teen Titans (or heck Young Justice renewed instead of a movie at all...)

[Hopeless]

That said, I'd rather see movie Justice League or Teen Titans (or heck Young Justice renewed instead of a movie at all...)

Ditto on that, how about a live action version of Young Justice?

[Traab]

I am interested in this for two reasons. 1) This is the first live action batman/superman mashup that I know of, and 2) Its the start of an attempt at forming the justice league. For too long the DC movies have been all about self contained worlds. In batman, superman doesnt exist, its just him fighting crime with nothing but his spandex clad underage sidekick at most. Similar for supes. All by himself, no other heroes exist. Now that we have seen crossovers can work because of avengers, this is a good chance to try out new stories.

I am sick and effing TIRED of batman and superman having to reboot every 10 years because there apparently isnt enough interest to do new stories for either. Is there anyone above the age of 10 that DOESNT already know the general gist of their origins? No? THEN SKIP IT! Go straight to the introduction of metallo, or grundy, or mr mxyzsptlk. Give us an established batman and robin and batgirl and work on the killing joke.

Batman probably has the least amount of need for intro movies for his villains since they have mostly all been introduced in various versions. Joker, scarecrow, freeze, poison ivy, bane, penguin, catwoman, two face, riddler, yeah there are a few still that havent been used in movies like mad hatter, but in general you can speed past the damn origin story of the bad guy and skip straight to confrontation #654 between batman and killer croc, you know, the one where he almost got batman by throwing a rock at him? (Bonus points for anyone who gets that) Maybe cover through flashbacks some of their long history against each other so we realize how personal this has gotten over time.

Anyways, I went way off topic, mainly I am interested because this is something relatively NEW for both franchises. I am also interested since apparently I wont have to listen to mr gravel voice speak in this film. God that voice was annoying. It was like a 6 year old trying to sound tough. Keaton managed to be intimidating without growling all his lines.

[Cikomyr]

I hope this teamup will respect Linkara Rule of Power Rangers Crossover Teamups:

The show should highlight both sides, show why either of them are awesome in their own right, and not undermine the other party.


As long as Batman doesn't come off as wimpy and Superman doesn't come off as dumb, it's probably be okay. If Batman outsmart superman, it has to be through IMPRESSIVE planning and manipulation, nothing else.

Nobody should feel cheated, regardless of who actually wins. And I do hope the.movie present a proper answer, instead of coping out and giving us a "draw" or "they leave put their differences and team up".

For example, acknowledging Superman beats Batman straight, but then coming back and having to ask his help and counsel to catch someone who keeps eluding him. Both sides shine in their ways.

[Cikomyr]

With brains in the comics they've always been on par with intelligence. Superman I'd call the Smarter of the pair in a pure knowledge base while Batman is smarter in a Figure it out base.

You want something super science built you call Superman, you want something figured out you call Batman Unless it relates to said super science

If anything, I'd say Batman has more guile than Supes. He's more likely to use underhanded means since he can't.brute force a much as Superman.

If anything, Superman's intelligence is another application of "brute force". He is damn smart, that doesn't mean he can think as much outside the box as Batty.

[Eldan]

Don't care. Sooo don't care. Dark Knight Rises wasn't very good, Man of Steel somehow managed to be even worse than Captain America, which I wasn't sure was possible.

We'll get Cardboard-Superman interacting with new Batman in a giant budget. Yawn.

[Fan]

While I don't think Superman's acting was the problem in Man of Steel, and I personally liked the movie while acknowleding it's flaws (I found the flashback scenes poorly placed, and questioned the ethics of Jonathan Kent dying to save a DOG.).

I am NOT looking forward to a versus movie, these two are best friends, not enemies in the real scheme of actual story and not in a versus thread.

I also hate that people always seem to think that Batman is somehow Smarter than Lex Luthor who is repeatedly stated to be the smartest human being in the DC Universe, Batman included, and to be smarter than even hyper evolved alien supercomputers (Brainiac.), and the creator of the universe (The Source Wall.).

To put it simply, while Bats IS more intelligent than Superman when it comes to observational skills, and a tactical mindset. Clark is a scientist, with the entire knowledge of krypton behind him, an eidetic memory and a super brain that can process information millions of times faster than the human maximum ever recorded.

They have different types of intelligence, one is not necessarily so much smarter than the other that one would always come out on top, which is a GOOD thing because they are FRIENDS and they are supposed to help cover eachothers weaknesses.

All in all, not thrilled that the Superman sequel is being made into a versus movie between him and Batman. Could this have been done? Yes. Should it have been THE SUPERMAN SEQUEL? **** no. Stop rushing the JL movie. Stop caring about how well The Avengers did, and give the entire JL roster equal representation and character building with their own movies with team ups AFTER they are established in order to build a fantastic universe rather than the current money making scheme.

As the resident "SuperFan" I am NOT looking forward to this in the slightest, and if I can't get excited about a Superman movie. I don't think anyone can.

What we need is a Flash Movie, a Wonder Woman movie, and do the proper sequel for Superman with it being a TEAM UP with the leaguers who didn't get their own movie, and not a versus match based on popularity to lead into Justice League.

[Olinser]

The very idea of Batman vs Superman has always pissed me off.

Batman is a fantastic superhero, and he's definitely been one of my top 3 favorites.

However, the only way Batman can possibly win is to pull out some stupid Deus Ex Machina item that lets him win.

It's not a fair fight. Arguing about it is stupid. Superman will always win, hands down, simply by virtue of being out of Batman's league.

The only way for Batman to win is for the writer to LET him win.

[Fan]

The very idea of Batman vs Superman has always pissed me off.

Batman is a fantastic superhero, and he's definitely been one of my top 3 favorites.

However, the only way Batman can possibly win is to pull out some stupid Deus Ex Machina item that lets him win.

It's not a fair fight. Arguing about it is stupid. Superman will always win, hands down, simply by virtue of being out of Batman's league.

The only way for Batman to win is for the writer to LET him win.

The thing is, even historically, in the in canon one on one encounters Batman is at a HUGE deficit in actually winning.

It's currently (counting Pre New 52 and New 52) 7 to 3 in Clark's favor, and each time Batman has "Won" it has always been by the skin of his teeth and by avoiding Clark until the Mind Control / Spores / Red Kryptonite / Mind Control wore off.

Hell in "The Sacrifice", when Superman was mind controlled by Max Lord Batman basically had time to say "What's wrong Cl-" and was cut off by a Super Punch that put him in a full body cast.

It is a matter of a man who lives in a world, versus a Sun God from Smallville that can move them.

The idea of an entire big screen movie dedicated to this concept is not only ludicrous, it's offensive to anyone who actually reads DC comics because they're clearly just playing on the popularity of both characters in order to draw people in, and you know what it makes this movie?

A ****ing popularity contest.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, if anyone thinks the entire movie is just going to be them fighting each other, rather than them having the first act being antagonistic to each other before learning to respect their differences and skills and form a partnership to save the day I have a bridge I want to sell you.

It's the same with the Avengers movie, every hero fought every other hero but it was done in a way that was mostly respectful to each of them.

[Cikomyr]

Honestly, if anyone thinks the entire movie is just going to be them fighting each other, rather than them having the first act being antagonistic to each other before learning to respect their differences and skills and form a partnership to save the day I have a bridge I want to sell you.

It's the same with the Avengers movie, every hero fought every other hero but it was done in a way that was mostly respectful to each of them.

Actually, I hope it's a nice 3-act:

Act 1: They meet/discover they have similar goals. They are actually somewhat cooperative, as they aren't dumb people.
Act 2: The breakout. Different methods, different priorities. The actual problem.
Act 3: Making up.

I don't want them to meet up and be initially antagonists to each other. These aren't the Avengers; a group of loony unstable peoples. It's Batman and Superman, two rational people.

[Hopeless]

One problem I have with this is that Lex Luthor hasn't been introduced.

Seriously for this to work Lex had to have been even mentioned in the first movie and all we saw was evidence of his company which isn't enough!

For a world's finest movie i expect something along the lines of a live action Public Enemies movie and I can't see that being pulled off this early without having a movie to introduce both heroes and maybe have this as the Man of Steel 3 movie.

I'd rather Man of Steel 2 introduce Lex Luthor, Intergang and maybe even a precursor to the Justice League, somehow I think thats unlikely!

[Cikomyr]

If you remove the concept of Lex Luthor as an absolute, unconvertable antagonist (because you want to remove the Cut Lex Luthor a Check (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutLexLuthorACheck) factor to have him be.. ambivalent, I can see how two superbrillant and rich as Cresus Übermensch (Luthor and Wayne) be antagonist to each other, and Superman is, somehow, caught between the two. Luthor might even, somehow, convince Kent to go after Wayne.

Or something like that. I said it before: I no longer think Luthor works as a classic "movie villain". You need him to be more of a Lecter-type of villain, one that works on a psychological scale, playing mind tricks and manipulating from behind the glass.

[Eldan]

Okay, the problem I see here.

Both of these two have very little personality, at least as presetend in the movies.

Batman: Batman Begins sort of worked on the strength of Bruce Wayne. But The Dark Knight, the one most highly placed, rested almost entirely on the shoulders of the Joker, Comissioner Gordon and Harvey Dent. Batman is there to growl menacingly and be in the action scenes. By DK Rises, it fell apart.

It's even worse in the Superman movies. After however long that movie was (it felt like years), I still have no idea what his personality is supposed to be. He was just sort of there while people proclaimed monologues at him.

For a versus movie to work, you'd need two strong characters with opposed views. But at least as presented so far? Neither has much character. Yes, the comics might be better. But then you'd need to introduce both of them from scratch and you don't have the time for that if you still try to put in the three acts mentioned above.

[Mordar]

So at Comic Con Warner Bros. just announced "Batman / Superman" or "Batman vs. Superman" (title not yet decided) for a 2015 release. Zach Snyder said this is a new Bruce Wayne, i.e. not Christian Bale. The role has not yet been cast.

Thoughts?

I'm super excited!

Thank goodness it won't be Bale...I like him as not-Batman/Bruce, but didn't care even a bit for him in that role. Maybe it was the overall take on the character, or maybe it just was the voice...but about 10 minutes after the prison sequence in Begins I stopped liking him.


There is no Nolanverse Superman. There's only the Zach Snyder / David Goyer Superman.

...with oversight by producer, co-story writer (which is different than screenplay/script writer) and named WB/DC Movie Maven, Chris Nolan. I get your point, but his fingerprints were visible...thankfully not nearly so much as I had expected though!

- M

PS: World's Finest is a tough property to do well as a film. I wish them good luck all around!

[Anteros]

The thing is, even historically, in the in canon one on one encounters Batman is at a HUGE deficit in actually winning.

It's currently (counting Pre New 52 and New 52) 7 to 3 in Clark's favor, and each time Batman has "Won" it has always been by the skin of his teeth and by avoiding Clark until the Mind Control / Spores / Red Kryptonite / Mind Control wore off.

Hell in "The Sacrifice", when Superman was mind controlled by Max Lord Batman basically had time to say "What's wrong Cl-" and was cut off by a Super Punch that put him in a full body cast.
.

I don't consider getting sucker punched with no warning by your best friend as a proper display of what would happen in a real fight. Bats could just as easily walk up to an unsuspecting Clark and do something kryptonite based to him for an easy win. That type of thing doesn't have any bearing on a real fight though.

[Jayngfet]

I don't consider getting sucker punched with no warning by your best friend as a proper display of what would happen in a real fight. Bats could just as easily walk up to an unsuspecting Clark and do something kryptonite based to him for an easy win. That type of thing doesn't have any bearing on a real fight though.

Real fights don't start on the count of three with both parties going on the count of three. That's for the sake of vs threads but in universe one dude getting the drop on the other or at least trying to is the norm.

[Anteros]

Real fights don't start on the count of three with both parties going on the count of three. That's for the sake of vs threads but in universe one dude getting the drop on the other or at least trying to is the norm.

That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a poor example for demonstrating how a fight between the 2 in a movie would go.

[Fan]

That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a poor example for demonstrating how a fight between the 2 in a movie would go.

Other example is "Lex Luthor: Man of Steel"where Batman had Kryptonite, and Preptime and Clark countered it by destroying the building they were on and having the fight start a few stories up in one of Bruce's penthouses.

Long story short, Clark super breath'd the kryptonite a few miles away, Bruce lost after being put in a body cast (having been goaded into the fight by Lex.), and gave Lex the tech he needed to make a near superman robot that thought it was human.

How a "Real" fight (IE. A death battle, or a "Deadliest Warrior" scenario.) would go is that Bruce would attempt to reach for his krpytonite that he concealed in order for Clark to have not seen it from the other side of the planet, and he would hit the sun around the same time his nerves got the message that it was time to open the lead lined bat belt pouch. Or he'd do what he did to Shazam in Injustice, freeze Batman solid then Heatvision through his skull. Or any number of other things that a normal human being even at absolute peak limits of the human nervous system (not reaction times, the nervous system and how fast synapses fire.) cannot avoid.

But that isn't how a fight between them would go in the comics or movie would go because Batman gets writer preferance and Clark becomes an idiot flying brick when written in those stories.

But again, the fight WOULD NEVER HAPPEN because both of them A: Share too many ideals and opinions despite their differences, and B: Clark would be able to avoid it all, just fly into space and let Bruce cool off.

[Cikomyr]

If you think about it a lot, you can find a good reason for the two to be antagonists to each other to the point of blows. As long as neither comes off as stupid or irrational, it'll be fine.

Which is why I believe Manipulator Luthor would be the perfect villain. Find a way to manipulate both heroes to go against each other. Make each believe the other is a misguided extremist. It's not that hard to imagine Batman as a control freak bent on revenge ('cause that's what he is) or Superman as a demigod who basically rules the Earth under his brand of morality (luckily for us, that brand isn't at odd with generally accepted ethics).

It's streching, I know. But it's not impossible. Make both superheroes flawed in their vision of reality, and that's what put them at odds. Make their difference to be more than Avenger-like personality quirks. Make it count; a philosophical debate on what Superheroes stand for.

Then have them, at the end, begrudgingly acknowledge the other and accept that each don't know all the answers.


Basically, I'd like this movie to be everything Roddenberry vetoed on Star Trek: you don't have to be evil to have difference of opinion or beliefs.

[DigoDragon]

As Warner Bros has proven comically inept at handling their DC properties I will take a wait and see. I will wait until this World's Finest goes into production.

WB seems to do better making animated productions of their properties than live-action versions. After the success of The Avengers, I can see why WB wants in on the bandwagon, but I don't think they have the creative resources to pull it off.

So I'm with Soras here. I'll just wait and see.



If we're stuck with superhero movie after superhero movie as we seem to be, they might actually try developing one of their other properties for once. Like say, Wonder Woman, Blue Beetle, the Flash, Doom Patrol, the Teen Titans, and Booster Gold.

I think Kitten has a great idea here. Batmans and Supermans are dime a dozen, but developing lesser known properties would be the better way to go. I'd love to see a Wonder Woman movie myself.

Doom Patrol and Titans don't have any previous live-action work, so there's nothing to compare it to and that makes it ripe for wide open imaginative stories. :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

So at Comic Con Warner Bros. just announced "Batman / Superman" or "Batman vs. Superman" (title not yet decided) for a 2015 release. Zach Snyder said this is a new Bruce Wayne, i.e. not Christian Bale. The role has not yet been cast.

Thoughts?

I'm super excited!

Not so excited, but count me in the waiting crowd. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

Other example is "Lex Luthor: Man of Steel"where Batman had Kryptonite, and Preptime and Clark countered it by destroying the building they were on and having the fight start a few stories up in one of Bruce's penthouses.

Long story short, Clark super breath'd the kryptonite a few miles away, Bruce lost after being put in a body cast (having been goaded into the fight by Lex.), and gave Lex the tech he needed to make a near superman robot that thought it was human.

How a "Real" fight (IE. A death battle, or a "Deadliest Warrior" scenario.) would go is that Bruce would attempt to reach for his krpytonite that he concealed in order for Clark to have not seen it from the other side of the planet, and he would hit the sun around the same time his nerves got the message that it was time to open the lead lined bat belt pouch. Or he'd do what he did to Shazam in Injustice, freeze Batman solid then Heatvision through his skull. Or any number of other things that a normal human being even at absolute peak limits of the human nervous system (not reaction times, the nervous system and how fast synapses fire.) cannot avoid.

But that isn't how a fight between them would go in the comics or movie would go because Batman gets writer preferance and Clark becomes an idiot flying brick when written in those stories.

But again, the fight WOULD NEVER HAPPEN because both of them A: Share too many ideals and opinions despite their differences, and B: Clark would be able to avoid it all, just fly into space and let Bruce cool off.

I agree with you that comics superman would obliterate batman before he was even aware the fight started, even in a death battle and with prep time, but this isnt comics superman, this is movie superman, where he DOESNT go around juggling planets and drag around black holes for some light resistance training. Its still horrifically lopsided, but generally speaking, the movie supermen havent been planet destroying gods of unstoppable power. Yah know, ignoring christopher reeve time traveling by flying around the world really really fast. There is a reason why one of those "How It Should Have Ended" film clips is about superman and how he should have grabbed both missiles instantly and is wrong. Thats comic superman, movie superman isnt THAT fast (once again, ignoring time travel insanity that made no sense and is never seen nor heard from again) Movie superman isnt god.

Of course, I am saying all this without having seen the new superman film, am I wrong? Did superman use his mighty muscles to move earth out of the path of an incoming super kryptonian weapon?

[Cikomyr]

I agree with you that comics superman would obliterate batman before he was even aware the fight started, even in a death battle and with prep time, but this isnt comics superman, this is movie superman, where he DOESNT go around juggling planets and drag around black holes for some light resistance training. Its still horrifically lopsided, but generally speaking, the movie supermen havent been planet destroying gods of unstoppable power. Yah know, ignoring christopher reeve time traveling by flying around the world really really fast. There is a reason why one of those "How It Should Have Ended" film clips is about superman and how he should have grabbed both missiles instantly and is wrong. Thats comic superman, movie superman isnt THAT fast (once again, ignoring time travel insanity that made no sense and is never seen nor heard from again) Movie superman isnt god.

Of course, I am saying all this without having seen the new superman film, am I wrong? Did superman use his mighty muscles to move earth out of the path of an incoming super kryptonian weapon?

No. If anything, Man of Steel superman is even weaker. He struggled to prevent an oil rig from falling.

All the better, in my opinion. At times, I feel like Superman's powers are comically cosmic.

[Devonix]

He's a guy who fights cosmic threats. Shouldn't he be ... Cosmic?

[Cikomyr]

He's a guy who fights cosmic threats. Shouldn't he be ... Cosmic?

And yet is a crime fighter?

Kind of like using a nuke to kill a fly, wouldn't you say?

[Traab]

He's a guy who fights cosmic threats. Shouldn't he be ... Cosmic?

He didnt use to be. It used to be his main threats were tech created by lex, who by no means was capable of destroying galaxies. Also other bad guys that, while stronger than batmans rogue gallery, were hardly even threats on a global level, let alone some galactic threat. There were a couple of exceptions like mixy the 5th dimensional imp or whatever the hell he is, but even him, or guys like darkseid, had limits that kept them from being god level.

But power creep is a nasty ^&%$# to battle. It tends to make everything nuts eventually and superman has existed for a very very long time. Or am I the only one remembers, "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound"? Yeah, at one point, that was his power level, he was as strong as a train and could hop really high. While faster than a bullet means he was potentially supersonic, (not all guns back then were supersonic) it didnt imply faster than light by such a wide amount he can cross entire galaxies in mere minutes.

Im not saying he should have stayed at the bench pressing buicks stage of his career, im just saying they went a bit too far, and the movies have so far managed to avoid falling too deep into that trap.

[Cikomyr]

He's a guy who fights cosmic threats. Shouldn't he be ... Cosmic?

And yet people want him to fight a regular, but smart, human? When he can change Earth's orbit?


That's not a superhero, it's almost a bully. Captain Hammer^10000

[Devonix]

He didnt use to be. It used to be his main threats were tech created by lex, who by no means was capable of destroying galaxies. Also other bad guys that, while stronger than batmans rogue gallery, were hardly even threats on a global level, let alone some galactic threat. There were a couple of exceptions like mixy the 5th dimensional imp or whatever the hell he is, but even him, or guys like darkseid, had limits that kept them from being god level.

But power creep is a nasty ^&%$# to battle. It tends to make everything nuts eventually and superman has existed for a very very long time. Or am I the only one remembers, "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound"? Yeah, at one point, that was his power level, he was as strong as a train and could hop really high. While faster than a bullet means he was potentially supersonic, (not all guns back then were supersonic) it didnt imply faster than light by such a wide amount he can cross entire galaxies in mere minutes.

Im not saying he should have stayed at the bench pressing buicks stage of his career, im just saying they went a bit too far, and the movies have so far managed to avoid falling too deep into that trap.

Ehh DC got into a scrotum measuring contest with Charlton Comics and they both were constantly trying to one up each other with Supes vs Cap

As for Luthor. Well Supes stopped Fighting Lex in the traditional sense years ago. Any time he actually fights him Lex is no threat. It's figuring out schemes and using his brain against Lex that are the real conflicts.

[Traab]

Ehh DC got into a scrotum measuring contest with Charlton Comics and they both were constantly trying to one up each other with Supes vs Cap

As for Luthor. Well Supes stopped Fighting Lex in the traditional sense years ago. Any time he actually fights him Lex is no threat. It's figuring out schemes and using his brain against Lex that are the real conflicts.

Oh, I understand this, and I honestly didnt mean to derail into another superman rocks/sucks thread. I was just trying to point out that movie superman has never even approached the power level of comic superman, so pointing out that "He-Who-Throws-Universes-Like-Frisbees" could kill batman so fast that he dies retroactively before he was born, doesnt really matter in this case. This superman is not omnipotent god level and thus is actually potentially vulnerable to an awesome enough bat-plan. Still major disadvantage if narrative were ignored and people with their respective abilities decided to fight it out, but not quite on the level of Phil from accounting trying to pimp slap Thanos.

[Devonix]

Oh, I understand this, and I honestly didnt mean to derail into another superman rocks/sucks thread. I was just trying to point out that movie superman has never even approached the power level of comic superman, so pointing out that "He-Who-Throws-Universes-Like-Frisbees" could kill batman so fast that he dies retroactively before he was born, doesnt really matter in this case. This superman is not omnipotent god level and thus is actually potentially vulnerable to an awesome enough bat-plan. Still major disadvantage if narrative were ignored and people with their respective abilities decided to fight it out, but not quite on the level of Phil from accounting trying to pimp slap Thanos.

Yeah Sorry this movie has thrown me into Superman Defense mode unfortunatly. I mean when the way the reveal the movie to the world is by using a quote from Dark Knight Returns it says something about how creative team is approaching this.

IE from the point of Batman = Amazing and Superman = A strong dumb chump

[Cikomyr]

Yeah Sorry this movie has thrown me into Superman Defense mode unfortunatly. I mean when the way the reveal the movie to the world is by using a quote from Dark Knight Returns it says something about how creative team is approaching this.

IE from the point of Batman = Amazing and Superman = A strong dumb chump

I wouldn't worry about that too much. Want it or not, Dark Knight Returns is the more popular and well-known Batman vs. Superman story, and had the most memorable quote that people wouldn't recognize the most easily.

[Devonix]

But WHY does it have to even be framed as a versus Why can't we talk about their cooperation and friendship against greater foes?

I mean these two are so close they are practically brothers. That's the relationship I would one day want to see translated on screen.

[Dienekes]

But WHY does it have to even be framed as a versus Why can't we talk about their cooperation and friendship against greater foes?

I mean these two are so close they are practically brothers. That's the relationship I would one day want to see translated on screen.

Personally the Batman and Superman relationship I want to see is best seen by a fanboys Batman quote. "Clark is a headstrong, naive, idiot without the least bit of common sense in these situations. But only I'm allowed to say that." While Superman is more open that he actually likes Bruce. But they are two different people with different methods, opinions and priorities. They have a John Adams and Thomas Jefferson relationship, good friends who disagree on a lot of important details but trust each other despite that.

As to why its called a Supes vs Bats? I'm pretty sure that's just a gimmic title to draw in viewers. It is also useful in that it gives next to nothing away about the actual plot.

[DigoDragon]

But WHY does it have to even be framed as a versus Why can't we talk about their cooperation and friendship against greater foes?

I mean these two are so close they are practically brothers. That's the relationship I would one day want to see translated on screen.

Well, if it legitimizes it any, my brother and I after 33 years still on rare occasion want to punch each other out for whatever reasons. :smallbiggrin: Kidding, I think the only reason they're calling it a versus film is to sell the hype.
That dirty 'V' word sells more tickets. :smallwink:

[Traab]

But WHY does it have to even be framed as a versus Why can't we talk about their cooperation and friendship against greater foes?

I mean these two are so close they are practically brothers. That's the relationship I would one day want to see translated on screen.

Because they have to meet first before they can be friends, and you have to admit, they have very different philosophies on life, crime fighting, and their roles in society. They will but heads, take turns figuring out each others secret identity, have some conflict, then come to a resolution that leaves them allies, and eventually friends. You cant just skip over all that and have them be long time friends and fellows right off the bat.

[Tyndmyr]

As Warner Bros has proven comically inept at handling their DC properties I will take a wait and see. I will wait until this World's Finest goes into production.

This. For all I know, it could be another Green Lantern, which seemed to have died on the cutting room floor. Plenty of ideas in there that COULD have been awesome, but just became a giant ball of confusing.

Right now, DC is playing catch-up to Marvel, and while Superman vs Batman has been fantastic in comics, I see no evidence that their movie making crew is on board. I'm not thrilled about Snyder's superman. It's not the worst superman movie I've seen, sure, but it's no Avengers. Or Iron Man. Or Captain America. So, we've got kind of a mediocre supes aspect there, because he's almost certainly going to run with the same superman.

And, while batman was awesome, losing Bale doesn't help, and anyway, the world of superman and the world of batman in current film do not seem to overlap. You can't tell me that batman would be unaware of the events in the superman film, or vice versa for the last batman film. Regardless of order, either should have gotten involved in the other's mess to some degree. There should have been prep work to set it up like how Marvel did for Avengers.

I'm certainly not sick of superhero movies yet, but the arrival of them as a full genre means I no longer jump up with glee whenever any of them hits the screen...there's enough material that I can take a pass on the weaker options.

Also...I'm going to be extremely disappointed if this is a reboot for batman thanks to new actor. These origin stories have been beat to death. And sadly, the last batman was the weakest of the three, so a continuation of the same with a different actor is...not good looking. That usually spells death for a series. Both options suck.

DC needs to bust out some of the capes with less screen time, set up the groundwork of the world, and establish that they all do, in fact, exist in the same world. Superman and Batman can be relevant in those stories, but should not be who the story is about.

[Darth Credence]

I think that this is the ideal way to work towards a Justice League movie, and is exactly what I was hoping for in terms of a Man of Steel sequel. Of course, I quite enjoyed Man of Steel, so I'm happy with Superman from that. I would put it around number 10 in a ranking of superhero movies, out of the hundred plus that exist and the 70 that I've seen (just looked at a list of superhero movies on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_superhero_films) - man there is a lot of crap on there.)

A lot of people here have been complaining about it always being Superman and Batman, and that some of the smaller ones should get a shot. That is a kind of dangerous route to go, as a few missteps could bring it all crashing down around them. Really, if the first Iron Man had bombed, there probably would not have been an Avengers movie. DC has already had a serious misfire with Green Lantern, so from a business point of view, it makes a lot more sense to go with the heavy hitters.

Clearly, Batman will be a new take. It will not be the Nolan Batman. This, for me, is good on a couple of different levels. First, it should eliminate the need for a Batman origin story. Since he is sharing the movie with Superman, I would expect that they will just assume we know who Batman is at this point. Second, it allows a fresh start with a Batman tailored to a Justice League universe. The Nolan Batman wouldn't fit in a world with Superman - while that is fine for those movies, I do look forward to a Batman that has to deal with people that are well beyond him. I hope that makes the detective aspect of Batman more important, and the movie focuses on Batman solving the mystery while Superman does the heavy lifting.

It also makes a better lead in to the Justice League movie, IMO. My expectation is that the movie will end with Superman hoping that the two of them can work together more. Batman will likely say that he just wants to deal with Gotham, but in the end agrees to help if the ever need him. Then between movies Superman can round up other heroes, and start the League, with Batman only stepping in when really needed. This can help the Justice League movie not being just Superman/Batman and a few supporting players - since we already had that movie, they can both take a much smaller role in the big team up without people feeling shorted.

[Kitten Champion]

DC needs to bust out some of the capes with less screen time, set up the groundwork of the world, and establish that they all do, in fact, exist in the same world. Superman and Batman can be relevant in those stories, but should not be who the story is about.

I don't know, everything I've seen from DC in the last while proclaims loudly that the multiverse revolves around Batman and to a far, far lesser extent Superman. They're clearly holding true to their philosophy with this movie.

[Anteros]

Other example is "Lex Luthor: Man of Steel"where Batman had Kryptonite, and Preptime and Clark countered it by destroying the building they were on and having the fight start a few stories up in one of Bruce's penthouses.

Long story short, Clark super breath'd the kryptonite a few miles away, Bruce lost after being put in a body cast (having been goaded into the fight by Lex.), and gave Lex the tech he needed to make a near superman robot that thought it was human.

How a "Real" fight (IE. A death battle, or a "Deadliest Warrior" scenario.) would go is that Bruce would attempt to reach for his krpytonite that he concealed in order for Clark to have not seen it from the other side of the planet, and he would hit the sun around the same time his nerves got the message that it was time to open the lead lined bat belt pouch. Or he'd do what he did to Shazam in Injustice, freeze Batman solid then Heatvision through his skull. Or any number of other things that a normal human being even at absolute peak limits of the human nervous system (not reaction times, the nervous system and how fast synapses fire.) cannot avoid.

But that isn't how a fight between them would go in the comics or movie would go because Batman gets writer preferance and Clark becomes an idiot flying brick when written in those stories.

But again, the fight WOULD NEVER HAPPEN because both of them A: Share too many ideals and opinions despite their differences, and B: Clark would be able to avoid it all, just fly into space and let Bruce cool off.

Also, cause...ya'know...Superman doesn't act that way. That might be how a fight between Batman and you would go if you had all of Superman's powers...but fortunately for Batman, Clark has one very glaring weakness he can exploit. His personality.

[Tyrant]

If you think about it a lot, you can find a good reason for the two to be antagonists to each other to the point of blows. As long as neither comes off as stupid or irrational, it'll be fine.

Which is why I believe Manipulator Luthor would be the perfect villain. Find a way to manipulate both heroes to go against each other. Make each believe the other is a misguided extremist. It's not that hard to imagine Batman as a control freak bent on revenge ('cause that's what he is) or Superman as a demigod who basically rules the Earth under his brand of morality (luckily for us, that brand isn't at odd with generally accepted ethics).

It's streching, I know. But it's not impossible. Make both superheroes flawed in their vision of reality, and that's what put them at odds. Make their difference to be more than Avenger-like personality quirks. Make it count; a philosophical debate on what Superheroes stand for.

Then have them, at the end, begrudgingly acknowledge the other and accept that each don't know all the answers.


Basically, I'd like this movie to be everything Roddenberry vetoed on Star Trek: you don't have to be evil to have difference of opinion or beliefs.
I like this idea, but you might not even need Lex to manipulate either of them. If Lex is portrayed as the anti alien voice (likely fueled by all the destruction in Metropolis so he doesn't appear to just hate Superman for irrational reasons and to explain how otherwise sane people can agree with him), maybe Bruce would at first agree and decide to check things out. He comes to Metropolis to meet with Lex for whatever cover reason but the real reason is to feel out how he really feels about Superman and by night does the Batman thing to find out what he can. Somewhere along the way Lex tips him off that he has a failsafe plan to deal with Superman if it comes down to it (likely Metallo). This introduces Luthor, presents a threat that poses a threat to Superman but isn't the same type of threat to Batman (who could actually contribute by somehow dealing with his kryptonite heart to allow Superman to do the heavy damage), and gives a somewhat plausible scenario where a first contact between Bats and Supers doesn't go so great.

Then again, I favor a Lex Luthor: Man of Steel type Lex so anything where someone can possible see Lex's point of view is good with me.

[Tyndmyr]

I think that this is the ideal way to work towards a Justice League movie, and is exactly what I was hoping for in terms of a Man of Steel sequel. Of course, I quite enjoyed Man of Steel, so I'm happy with Superman from that. I would put it around number 10 in a ranking of superhero movies, out of the hundred plus that exist and the 70 that I've seen (just looked at a list of superhero movies on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_superhero_films) - man there is a lot of crap on there.)

Yeah, the older superhero films are a LOT spottier. Nobody talks about the old captain america film, for instance. It just doesn't exist. The genre has improved greatly of late, with a lot of the best films in it being pretty recent.

Man of Steel is, while not that great IMO, still better than the last superman, in which the climactic moment was him very slowly lifting a rock. Made of kryptonite. Which makes no sense at all.


A lot of people here have been complaining about it always being Superman and Batman, and that some of the smaller ones should get a shot. That is a kind of dangerous route to go, as a few missteps could bring it all crashing down around them. Really, if the first Iron Man had bombed, there probably would not have been an Avengers movie. DC has already had a serious misfire with Green Lantern, so from a business point of view, it makes a lot more sense to go with the heavy hitters.

Green Lantern isn't an unknown, though...merely picking a "big" char isn't going to guarantee a success, really. Green lantern didn't fail because it wasn't big enough, it failed because they just lost track of some basic elements for putting a movie together. For instance, there's the line where Ryan Reynolds begs the council to at least let him go back to earth. It's a well acted line, but there was never any indication that him not going back was a thing. It comes out of nowhere, and makes no sense in context. Poor editing, probably. I could pick this movie apart all day...but the problems here are not really the choice of hero.


Clearly, Batman will be a new take. It will not be the Nolan Batman. This, for me, is good on a couple of different levels. First, it should eliminate the need for a Batman origin story. Since he is sharing the movie with Superman, I would expect that they will just assume we know who Batman is at this point.

I hope they can bypass retelling his origin story one more time, yes. However, I have comparatively little faith in that. DC is heavily invested in origin stories, and hasn't really gotten beyond them. The best DC movie so far, aka, Joker's movie, is the only real exception. How does the joker originate? Nobody really knows. It doesn't come up on screen, and the two tales given don't match. In the end...it doesn't matter. The tale is still fantastic.

But sadly, they then went back to origin stories with the third dark knight movie, exploring Bane's origins and literally hearkening back to Batman's origin movie. And of course, green lantern and the new superman were both origin stories. They haven't learned the lesson.

[Eldan]

To be fair, Green Lantern needed it. I had never heard of Green Lantern before that, and neither did anyone I know, not even those who were on the nerdier end of the spectrum.

Superheroes outside of the Batman/Superman/Spiderman trio just weren't known here, period.

[Traab]

I had heard of green lantern, but had no idea how hal jordan or whoever they picked got his powers. Its really only the superman/batman pair that really can skip over the origins from now on. Of course, they CANT skip them because they keep re-imagining things and altering characters, so they have to explain WHY superman is, I dunno, a punk rocking superhero while batman is now a woman.

[Kitten Champion]

To be fair, Green Lantern needed it. I had never heard of Green Lantern before that, and neither did anyone I know, not even those who were on the nerdier end of the spectrum.

Superheroes outside of the Batman/Superman/Spiderman trio just weren't known here, period.

My friends and I are much the same. I saw some of the Justice League cartoons so I knew of the Green Lantern and had a general idea about his aesthetic (ring creating green-shaped stuff), but he was an entirely different person there and I didn't know any of the specifics. The stuff they included - Parallax, Sinestro, the generic love interest, and whatever Peter Saarsgard was supposed to be - meant nothing to me, I just knew I was bored... hoo-boy, was I bored.

I do think an origin story is somewhat necessary, but it can be an origin synopsis. Like Keaton's Batman or Norton's Incredible Hulk, you don't need to spend an hour to get there but I want some level of explanation as to why they're doing what they're doing and they are as they are. For someone like Ironman or Spiderman that'll take a little longer than Superman or the X-men.

[Eldan]

Huh. Punk Rock Superman might actually be interesting to see.

So, anyone up for crashing Superman's capsule into 70s Britain?

[Killer Angel]

And yet is a crime fighter?

Kind of like using a nuke to kill a fly, wouldn't you say?

Which is kinda difficult, if you want to kill only the fly. :smalltongue:

[Lord Raziere]

I'm so excited about this I can hardly stand myself. Shove cynicism aside, you all know the little kid in you CANNOT WAIT for this movie. :smallcool:

yea.

finally, a movie where I can enjoy two of the superheroes I hate beat the stuffing out of each other, hopefully for no good reason :smallbiggrin:

especially if its ends with superman beating Batman to a complete pulp, but as Batman dies, it sets off a post-mortem death trap of kryptonite to kill Superman at the same time.

thus both would die. it would be tragic, if it wasn't so funny. too bad that likely will never actually happen, they will probably just fight for some contrived reason and then team up at the last minute. but, one can hope for a better world without those two morally uptight mary sues. one can hope.

[Traab]

Huh. Punk Rock Superman might actually be interesting to see.

So, anyone up for crashing Superman's capsule into 70s Britain?

Well they DID do a british superman, so making him a punk rocker wouldnt be that much more of a stretch. :p *EDIT* And personally, im curious about the idea of making Bruce Wayne into Betty Wayne. How would the gender difference effect the whole persona?

[Tiki Snakes]

Well they DID do a british superman, so making him a punk rocker wouldnt be that much more of a stretch. :p *EDIT* And personally, im curious about the idea of making Bruce Wayne into Betty Wayne. How would the gender difference effect the whole persona?

Well, the traditional cover of him being a vapid international playboy plays very differently. I mean, either you come up with a very different twist, or you basically have Paris Hilton secretly being a dark and brooding criminology genius and martial arts master.

[Hopeless]

Well, the traditional cover of him being a vapid international playboy plays very differently. I mean, either you come up with a very different twist, or you basically have Paris Hilton secretly being a dark and brooding criminology genius and martial arts master.

But more likeable and not that interested in being in the public eye?

[Traab]

Well, the traditional cover of him being a vapid international playboy plays very differently. I mean, either you come up with a very different twist, or you basically have Paris Hilton secretly being a dark and brooding criminology genius and martial arts master.

Yeah but thats the thing, it wouldnt be as simple as "Bruce grows boobs" thats lazy thinking, acting as if male or female the end result will be the same. Women tend to think act and react differently than men, so its entirely possible that Betty Wayne would have an entirely different MO, she might not be a bat themed character, she might not go for the paris hilton persona, after all, for whatever reason a man can be a playboy and still be considered a real ceo. Can you imagine taking paris hilton seriously as the ceo of the family business? Would she hide her gender in costume going for androgyny? Or work sex appeal into her costume to aid in distracting the bad guys?

[Tiki Snakes]

The Bat theme to the costume and persona is non negotiable, its the core. If you're ditching that, your no longer really looking at a version of the same character.

With that said, I don't disagree with the rest as such, and a serious look at the whole thing would be interesting. I don't see our Bat going for sex appeal as a realistic option though, because the core bat-assumption of using terror and so on pushes in the other direction.

I guess the question is, what was the playboy persona for? Partly I guess to explain him being hands off with the company? Probably more so that no one would take the idea of him being batman seriously.

So, I could very much see our lady Wayne playing up the female academic idea, tweed jackets and dusty intellectual pursuits, because no one is going to believe Professor Wayne goes out on the streets at night kung-fu fighting thugs and lunatics.

[Traab]

The Bat theme to the costume and persona is non negotiable, its the core. If you're ditching that, your no longer really looking at a version of the same character.

With that said, I don't disagree with the rest as such, and a serious look at the whole thing would be interesting. I don't see our Bat going for sex appeal as a realistic option though, because the core bat-assumption of using terror and so on pushes in the other direction.

I guess the question is, what was the playboy persona for? Partly I guess to explain him being hands off with the company? Probably more so that no one would take the idea of him being batman seriously.

So, I could very much see our lady Wayne playing up the female academic idea, tweed jackets and dusty intellectual pursuits, because no one is going to believe Professor Wayne goes out on the streets at night kung-fu fighting thugs and lunatics.


Yeah, I meant to edit out the no bat part as it really is something nonnegotiable. Ah well. I agree with the potential for female academic persona. She could also go for full scale hardcore business woman. You wouldnt expect this no nonsense hardass woman with her hair in a bun and a power suit to get changed into a new type of power suit at night to go fight crime. Neither one is the type you would think would or even could go out and kung fu fight crime. Though I think the somewhat timid bookish version would be better. Much like how clark has his job as a reporter to explain him vanishing and coming back with details, being able to act meek and run off when there is danger lets Betty go change quickly.

[Dienekes]

I don't know. I could see FemBat going full Paris Hilton. Honestly, who would ever believe Paris Hilton is a crime fighter? No one.

She is depicted as a complete airhead who just happens to be the heir to the company, thankfully the actual business end is run by Lucy Fox who hasn't booted Betty Wayne out through some misplaced loyalty to the girls parents.

[Eldan]

So, everyone is Genderswitched? Robine? Jokerette?

[Traab]

So, everyone is Genderswitched? Robine? Jokerette?

Doesnt have to be, but you just know Poison Ivan would be badass. :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Hm. Genderswitching the females. Harvey Quinn. Catman...

There really arne't all that many females.

[Cikomyr]

Hm. Genderswitching the females. Harvey Quinn. Catman...

There really arne't all that many females.

Which is a big point against the ridicule argument of "let's do it the other way". Superheroes of racial minority or of feminine gender are defined by these, while ye ol' white male is the "standard", more easily swapped while retaining the core aspects of the character.

Smurfette Principle.

[Traab]

Which is a big point against the ridicule argument of "let's do it the other way". Superheroes of racial minority or of feminine gender are defined by these, while ye ol' white male is the "standard", more easily swapped while retaining the core aspects of the character.

Smurfette Principle.

I can agree to a point, except I can think of a few that are different. take away supergirls boobs and what do you have? Superman. Batgirl? Batman, etc etc etc. Hawkgirl could be hawkman just fine imo. Wonder Woman is about the only one that HAS to be female or else its an entirely different character. To me the problem is there are a number of female heroes who are already nothing but gender swapped versions of a male hero like the ones I listed earlier. Superman with boobs and such.

As for racial heroes, eh, that could be a bit dicier. For example, I dont think anyone would blink at Static Shock if he had been white. Even Luke Cage could have been a white guy. Sure the vocal patterns would likely change as some of the stuff writers had him come out with was beyond dumb, but most of the backstory could fit a white man or a hispanic man too. Aside from total racial stereotype characters, i dont see how switching things around a bit couldnt work.

[Aotrs Commander]

Marvel would seem to be better in that regard, as they tend to have less (if by no means none!) "like [character] except a girl." X-23 is a bit marginal, but having read enough of her, while she shares Wolverine's power set, she isn't really him in character. (And there's Spider-Woman, but apart from the name a loose spider-theme, don't think she's got much in common with Spidey. Miss Sinister, I suppose... Doubtless there is in truth a fairly long list, I just don't it's quite as long or visible a DC's.)

But... Black Widower (...?) Storm? Phoenix? Mr Marvel? Wasp? I'm actually struggling to think of any female => male heroes who's name would change much...!

Granted, the X-Men are probably taking the lion's share of female characters again, but at least they are there. (Though from my limited knowledge of DC, you could say the various incarnations of the Titans would fill that better.)



Really, though, the reason there aren't so many visible female superheroes is historical inertia. The early superheros have permeated society over forty to sixty years or so and the newer ones just don't get quite as much traction. (Everyone knows who Superman is, even if they've never watched/read anything, because of how often he's referenced over the years.) It sucks (I think Jubilee is long overdue for her own movie trilogy and two or three cartoon spin-offs...) but it's likely to stay that way until the more recent crop of heroes have had time to settle into a good few generations. Granted, making them more obvious and visible and giving them some screen time would really help with that, though...

(And of course the other danger is making a new female superhero (as opposed to a new superhero who happens to be female, which is subtly different) is likely to end badly as you're basically back to Token Female again, because any character who's main conceptual selling point is [sex/gender/orientation/race/etc] before anything else has an uphill battle to be a character and not a [whatever] steriotype.)

[Tiki Snakes]

Heh, a Jubilee movie trilogy? That'd be something to see.
Which is to say, I'm not sure she's popular enough that it's ever going to happen, really.

I have a soft spot for her, but I never got the impression she had mass appeal. Partly because of her generally quite weak power set, partly because I think she borders on a couple of character types that some people get wound up by? That's mostly guesswork though.

Also, re:Genderswitched Batman.
If we're discussing, like, a what if comic/elseworlds or something like that, I'd be strongly inclined to switch Batman/Bruce Wayne and only Batman/Bruce Wayne. Everyone else stays as they were, as the whole point would be examining the character through making a single change and seeing how it worked out differently and where it doesn't change at all. Also, these kind of "Only x is a y!" swaps, when applied to the entire setting rather than just a character or two always feel a lot more sploitational, somehow? I don't know.

Also, I want to just point out that Robin is a pretty gender neutral name already, the Joker is more of a title and wouldn't need switching either. I'm not entirely sure Harley is never used as a male name either. Also there's already a Catman. He's weird, I suspect.

[Aotrs Commander]

Heh, a Jubilee movie trilogy? That'd be something to see.
Which is to say, I'm not sure she's popular enough that it's ever going to happen, really.

I have a soft spot for her, but I never got the impression she had mass appeal.

I remind you Marvel has been, since Generation X ended, using Jubilee as a marketing tool; they've literally been dragging her out, parading her around for a few issues, then sending her to obscurity until there's another title they want to publicise. (Indeed, the new current X-Men is their very, very last chance, because if they pull that one more time, I'll be out.) She's popular.

Possibly not quite enough, but I can dream...


Partly because of her generally quite weak power set

Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

No, but seriously, just remember those "fireworks" aren't. She calls them that, but those pretty light diplays? They're freaking balls of explosive plasma she can control and potentially use to detonate matter at a sub-atomic level. Like a fusion bomb. and she has enough control to get one into your brain to give you a stroke. Or blow your head clean off. The only reason she doesn't is because she conciously holds back when fighting humans because she actually doesn't want to kill people...

Yeah, she's not on Cyclops' level, but she ain't that far behind.



Of course, this was before the fact they took her powers and then made her a vampire. Oh, and the reason for that, by the way? Was specifically because she was popular, because they wanted M-day to hurt.

Asshats.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not so much comparing her to Cyclops as to the other hand-blast mutant, his brother Havok.

Who I distinctly remember being firmly in the "Blow the tops off mountains" range, even back in the day.

Of course, I never really got up to date with my reading, petering off about the start of the 90's or so I think, so anything more current I only really know about hearsay. Also, all that fine-control stuff feels very much like the kind of stuff people use to argue that Shadowcat is the most powerful or dangerous of mutants. Which is to say, nice, but kind of limited in terms of raw power?

I'll give you almost everything about the no-more-mutants thing is beyond stupid, of course, even just from what I've heard.

[Traab]

I remind you Marvel has been, since Generation X ended, using Jubilee as a marketing tool; they've literally been dragging her out, parading her around for a few issues, then sending her to obscurity until there's another title they want to publicise. (Indeed, the new current X-Men is their very, very last chance, because if they pull that one more time, I'll be out.) She's popular.

Possibly not quite enough, but I can dream...



Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

No, but seriously, just remember those "fireworks" aren't. She calls them that, but those pretty light diplays? They're freaking balls of explosive plasma she can control and potentially use to detonate matter at a sub-atomic level. Like a fusion bomb. and she has enough control to get one into your brain to give you a stroke. Or blow your head clean off. The only reason she doesn't is because she conciously holds back when fighting humans because she actually doesn't want to kill people...

Yeah, she's not on Cyclops' level, but she ain't that far behind.



Of course, this was before the fact they took her powers and then made her a vampire. Oh, and the reason for that, by the way? Was specifically because she was popular, because they wanted M-day to hurt.

Asshats.

I still only know her from the xmen cartoon (freaking AWESOME show that was) but in it jubilee was a bratty annoying kid who could possibly blind a sentinel, maybe even make it rock backwards, but that was about it. Her powers were pretty damn lame in general

[Hopeless]

A long time ago I decided to design a version of Cyclops for Silver Age Sentinels, he was competent only had the eye blast power but I had him start as being one of the bad guys who didn't care for harming bystanders, he became a PC and held his own something that should have been clear in the comics and the various X-Men animated series.

The last that properly showed that was the animated series where we saw him take down a Sentinel by himself the most bad ass episode was when they had to take on an entire base of them and Xavier rammed the Blackbird to take the facility out ejecting in time but still this was a guy in a wheelchair there was enough bad ass all round...

Wolverine and the X-Men was a waste, X-Men Evolution at least occasionally showed some merit but still going back to Bats vs Superman they should have them reintroduced and by that I mean Lex Luthor involved in Man of Steel 2 a new Batman movie if a new Batman is involved and only then something like Public Enemies... doubt I'll be that lucky though!

[Dienekes]

Since we're on the topic of Jubilee now anyway. Why is she so loved? Now I stopped reading X-Men awhile ago, it's just too... inane? Even in the world as odd as Marvel it stands out as the most soap opera fueled weirdness of the pack. But when I read her, Jubilee was the annoying kid sidekick of Wolverine mostly only there to give children someone to relate to (as though they need that. Kids loved Wolverine, and wanted to be him. Not his sidekick.). She constantly got herself into trouble and had Wolvy bail her out, and was just generally replaceable.

So what happened to give her some real fans?


I still only know her from the xmen cartoon (freaking AWESOME show that was) but in it jubilee was a bratty annoying kid who could possibly blind a sentinel, maybe even make it rock backwards, but that was about it. Her powers were pretty damn lame in general

She was possibly more competent in the comics I read. But not by much, and was still pretty annoying.

[Devonix]

Since we're on the topic of Jubilee now anyway. Why is she so loved? Now I stopped reading X-Men awhile ago, it's just too... inane? Even in the world as odd as Marvel it stands out as the most soap opera fueled weirdness of the pack. But when I read her, Jubilee was the annoying kid sidekick of Wolverine mostly only there to give children someone to relate to (as though they need that. Kids loved Wolverine, and wanted to be him. Not his sidekick.). She constantly got herself into trouble and had Wolvy bail her out, and was just generally replaceable.

So what happened to give her some real fans?



She was possibly more competent in the comics I read. But not by much, and was still pretty annoying.


She had her own adventures Lots of character growth and development that you can't give to someone like Wolverine.

And Generation X comics rocked. She was a warm caring and strong individual. Used her powers and her heart to help guide the team through a lot.

She also didn't take crap from no one.

She didn't really come into her own as a character till she left the X Men

[Kitten Champion]

Since we're on the topic of Jubilee now anyway. Why is she so loved? Now I stopped reading X-Men awhile ago, it's just too... inane? Even in the world as odd as Marvel it stands out as the most soap opera fueled weirdness of the pack. But when I read her, Jubilee was the annoying kid sidekick of Wolverine mostly only there to give children someone to relate to (as though they need that. Kids loved Wolverine, and wanted to be him. Not his sidekick.). She constantly got herself into trouble and had Wolvy bail her out, and was just generally replaceable.

So what happened to give her some real fans?

She was possibly more competent in the comics I read. But not by much, and was still pretty annoying.


Well, nostalgia from the cartoon is a big part of it. I think the relatability thing is more important than your implying too, I'd go so far as to say she's a proto-Harry Potter fantasy (seriously, desperate orphan, discovers super-powers, invited to mutant school). She was also very 90's chic, in terms of the same popular culture which enjoyed Saved-by-the-Bell.

She's also one of the few minor characters with significantly recognizable iconography.

Personally, I loved her in the cancelled miniseries Robert Kirkman wrote around her - so it depends on the writer.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Since we're on the topic of Jubilee now anyway. Why is she so loved?

Umm... define "so loved" here?

She was once reasonably big between the 90s show and Gen-X and that creates a certain amount of inertia in comics base.

She also drops off the face of earth like 95% of the X-characters for years at a time.

[Selrahc]

I remind you Marvel has been, since Generation X ended, using Jubilee as a marketing tool; they've literally been dragging her out, parading her around for a few issues, then sending her to obscurity until there's another title they want to publicise. (Indeed, the new current X-Men is their very, very last chance, because if they pull that one more time, I'll be out.) She's popular.


Not really. What you're describing is their strategy for pretty much every single hero they own who doesn't have an ongoing monthly. Or are you saying that say... Cloak and Dagger are super popular too? (Not that she is completely obscure. She's at least ahead of Z-listers like the Slingers or White Tiger or Misty Knight who Marvel keep in a similar "Not ready for primetime" status)

Marvel has a vested interest in making sure that the character doesn't fall off into total obscurity, but doesn't have anything interesting to do with her. They're keeping her in rotation as a guest star until some writer decides he likes her enough to make her a permanent part of his team book, or has a good pitch for a solo series. (Or wants her dead as part of some series that he can convince the editors to sign off on)

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, I read The Dark Knight Strikes Again. Batman is going to come up with some awesome Bat-Tech, break out the Kryptonite, we know how this will work.
Otherwise, it will be Superman verses the Clean Up on Aisle Four.

[Traab]

Eh, I read The Dark Knight Strikes Again. Batman is going to come up with some awesome Bat-Tech, break out the Kryptonite, we know how this will work.
Otherwise, it will be Superman verses the Clean Up on Aisle Four.

Did anything injure superman in the latest film? And by injure I mean an actual wound and not a scorch mark and him knocked on his ass? If not, did anything seem to display a potential upper limit on his durability? Meaning something hurt like hell but didnt leave a wound? Because I can see batman scanning and analyzing all the available data on superman before trying to fight him and if he can say, "Hmm, this missile with a payload of 12000 pounds of tnt made him cry out in pain and he staggered before going back into the fight. That means I need to deal blunt force trauma in excess of that to potentially injure him" etc etc etc.

[Devonix]

Eh, I read The Dark Knight Strikes Again. Batman is going to come up with some awesome Bat-Tech, break out the Kryptonite, we know how this will work.
Otherwise, it will be Superman verses the Clean Up on Aisle Four.

Please don't mention Dark Knight Strikes again. As out of character as they behaved in Strikes Back DKSA Was more than laughably worse.

Just more evidence that Frank Miller should be kept far far away from writing.

[Aotrs Commander]

Not really. What you're describing is their strategy for pretty much every single hero they own who doesn't have an ongoing monthly. Or are you saying that say... Cloak and Dagger are super popular too? (Not that she is completely obscure. She's at least ahead of Z-listers like the Slingers or White Tiger or Misty Knight who Marvel keep in a similar "Not ready for primetime" status)

Marvel has a vested interest in making sure that the character doesn't fall off into total obscurity, but doesn't have anything interesting to do with her. They're keeping her in rotation as a guest star until some writer decides he likes her enough to make her a permanent part of his team book, or has a good pitch for a solo series. (Or wants her dead as part of some series that he can convince the editors to sign off on)

Actually with Jubilee, it's been much more overt they've been doing that in a way that haven't with other X-characters. There have been occasions where thy've used her as a marketing point for a handful of pages of appearances and not some other characters of equal age. Heck, her vampire status got her a whole mini-series... (It's even worth noting that her re-appearance in adjectiveless X-Men basically got top billing, not least by the writer himself.)

It might even simply be that they know she's popular because of the animated series (I very much doubt I am the only one to become interested in superheroes becaus of that case.)

Certainly, they actually restrict her appearances and they got grilled often enough by fans in Q&As... Quasada had a personal interest in utilising her (unfortunately for us) demonstrated during the times we had his weekly sessions of same anyway.

[Tyndmyr]

To be fair, Green Lantern needed it. I had never heard of Green Lantern before that, and neither did anyone I know, not even those who were on the nerdier end of the spectrum.

Superheroes outside of the Batman/Superman/Spiderman trio just weren't known here, period.

Did you feel the lack of an origin story for Hawkeye or Black Window in the Avengers, I wonder?

An origin story may not be known, but that is different from being needed. However, in cases where the origin story is already widely known(ie, those three), it's especially pointless.

[Eldan]

Did you feel the lack of an origin story for Hawkeye or Black Window in the Avengers, I wonder?

An origin story may not be known, but that is different from being needed. However, in cases where the origin story is already widely known(ie, those three), it's especially pointless.

Hm. No, not really. But then, those two are pretty down to earth. As far as I can tell, they are just human spies with no powers. I've seen that in a thousand movies, I can imagine the details. I've never seen a psionic space cop with hardlight holograms before. There's a difference.

I mean, if he just showed up in the movie? Sure. I could tell that he had apparently a ring that can create green objects at will. But everything else? Just from that, I'd never guess anything about his organization's home planet or that there are more of him.

I mean, it could probably have been done. If they had good writers and structured the movie entirely differently. But even then, you'd have to have exposition characters running around explaining the entire space police and willpower thing.

[Cikomyr]

Did anything injure superman in the latest film? And by injure I mean an actual wound and not a scorch mark and him knocked on his ass? If not, did anything seem to display a potential upper limit on his durability? Meaning something hurt like hell but didnt leave a wound? Because I can see batman scanning and analyzing all the available data on superman before trying to fight him and if he can say, "Hmm, this missile with a payload of 12000 pounds of tnt made him cry out in pain and he staggered before going back into the fight. That means I need to deal blunt force trauma in excess of that to potentially injure him" etc etc etc.

Nah. He just gets punched around a lot.

But on the other hand, there is only ONE kryptonian who genuinely gets injured in the movie while on Earth. All others are incapacitated by... other means.

[Traab]

Did you feel the lack of an origin story for Hawkeye or Black Window in the Avengers, I wonder?

An origin story may not be known, but that is different from being needed. However, in cases where the origin story is already widely known(ie, those three), it's especially pointless.

They didnt need an origin. Both are government agents with their own oddities in how they do things. (Seriously? a BOW?!)

[Tyndmyr]

They didnt need an origin. Both are government agents with their own oddities in how they do things. (Seriously? a BOW?!)

They're a little more than just that, even in the movie world. However, I do concede that it is necessary to understand what a char does and who they are. This is not exactly the same as an origin story, though. So, for green lantern, you need to understand how the ring works(not hard), and you need to understand who Hal is.

[Traab]

They're a little more than just that, even in the movie world. However, I do concede that it is necessary to understand what a char does and who they are. This is not exactly the same as an origin story, though. So, for green lantern, you need to understand how the ring works(not hard), and you need to understand who Hal is.

Yeah I know, but black widow, iirc, isnt her backstory SUPPOSED to be a mystery? Like, she has been a spy on so many sides for so many years that even she barely remembers who she actually is or some such thing? Isnt hawkeye literally just a guy with a lot of skill as a sniper type in the movies? He wasnt clawed by a radioactive eagle, he didnt get bathed by cosmic rays from the star of the sparrow and he wasnt the chosen champion of horus. He is a shield agent with the notable feature of being good with a bow and having lots of gadgets to attach to the arrows. We need to learn how the various superheroes got their powers, or why this alien is here on earth for the story to make sense, we dont really need to know how barton got recruited while down at his local archery range and proved himself to be an exceptional agent ever since.

[Hopeless]

They're a little more than just that, even in the movie world. However, I do concede that it is necessary to understand what a char does and who they are. This is not exactly the same as an origin story, though. So, for green lantern, you need to understand how the ring works(not hard), and you need to understand who Hal is.

So who would you rather play him... as an apparent douchebag or by Nathan Fillion?:smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

Did anything injure superman in the latest film? And by injure I mean an actual wound and not a scorch mark and him knocked on his ass? If not, did anything seem to display a potential upper limit on his durability? Meaning something hurt like hell but didnt leave a wound? Because I can see batman scanning and analyzing all the available data on superman before trying to fight him and if he can say, "Hmm, this missile with a payload of 12000 pounds of tnt made him cry out in pain and he staggered before going back into the fight. That means I need to deal blunt force trauma in excess of that to potentially injure him" etc etc etc.
Can't say, haven't seen the film.
12 kilotons on a missile would be a nuke any way, or uber Bat Tech. The trouble with that is they would then be quantifying exactly how much can hurt Superman, or at least that Superman.



Please don't mention Dark Knight Strikes again. As out of character as they behaved in Strikes Back DKSA Was more than laughably worse.

Just more evidence that Frank Miller should be kept far far away from writing. I didn't say it was good, just that that's how it will pretty much have to play out. Though I was wrong, the uber Bat Tech and Kryptonite were from Dark Knight Returns.

[Eric Tolle]

George Reeves Superman meets Adam West Batman. You know it couldn't get better than that.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Phil from accounting trying to pimp slap Thanos.

...I would watch a movie about this. I would watch a movie about Phil from accounting enacting a labyrinthine plan, manipulating all of the Avengers to enact the incredibly simple goal of pimp slapping Thanos for never properly filing his finances. ...Phil would die horribly afterwards, but the crowning moment of the movie would him be defiantly pimp slapping Thanos and showing no indication of how much pain he's in from breaking his hand on Thanos' mighty jaw. :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

...I would watch a movie about this. I would watch a movie about Phil from accounting enacting a labyrinthine plan, manipulating all of the Avengers to enact the incredibly simple goal of pimp slapping Thanos for never properly filing his finances. ...Phil would die horribly afterwards, but the crowning moment of the movie would him be defiantly pimp slapping Thanos and showing no indication of how much pain he's in from breaking his hand on Thanos' mighty jaw. :smallbiggrin:

It would be worth anything to see that scene. The grand finale, avengers facing off against thanos, the tension is high, the wrong move will start the battle then /CRACK! Phil comes out of nowhere and gives the pimp hand to Thanos right across the cheek. The entire universe seems to freeze for a moment, as if reality itself needed to do a double take and ask, "Did he just...?" EVERYBODYS head slowly turns towards phil, Thanos, the avengers, even people on other planets with no idea why they are looking in that direction with an expression of stupefaction on their faces.

[ThePhantasm]

Zach Snyder is meeting with Frank Miller for input / advice about the film, reports the Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/batman-v-superman-zach-snyder-takes-advice-from-frank-miller-in-bid-for-blockbuster-battle-of-the-superheroes-8739894.html?origin=internalSearch).


Screenwriter David S Goyer, who co-wrote The Dark Knight trilogy with Christopher Nolan and Jonathan Nolan, recently revealed the Superman and Batman film may use a ‘versus’ in the title. Although the film, due out in 2015, will not be adapted from Miller’s work, the use of his words in the announcement led fans to believe Snyder wants the 56-year-old on side.

A source close to Miller, who also has Sin City and 300 sequels in the pipeline, told the Independent: “Frank had no idea the announcement in San Diego was going to happen so it did come as a surprise. He’s going to be meeting up with Zach in the next few days to go over the plans for the Superman film so things should be clearer after that.”

Snyder, who directed Man of Steel, will return for the sequel with Henry Cavill, Amy Adams, Laurence Fishburne and Diane Lane also set to reprise their roles.

[Devonix]

Zach Snyder is meeting with Frank Miller for input / advice about the film, reports the Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/batman-v-superman-zach-snyder-takes-advice-from-frank-miller-in-bid-for-blockbuster-battle-of-the-superheroes-8739894.html?origin=internalSearch).

Aaaaand that's it I'm officially done with the DC film universe.

[The Glyphstone]

Because Frank 'Summon The Whoooooooooores (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1566)' Miller is someone who really needs to be consulted (http://www.shortpacked.com/2006/comic/book-2-pulls-the-drama-tag/06-the-drama-tag/whores/) on any superhero movie, ever.

[ThePhantasm]

Frank Miller is pretty crazy. Never been a big fan of his interpretation of Batman to be honest, influential as it is.

[Anteros]

His work is absolutely terrible. Hopefully they keep his input to a minimum.

[Kitten Champion]

I still can't believe they're making a sequel to 300. It's like if Mel Gibson decided to continue his whole Passion of the Christ deal, in 3D.

[Tavar]

I still can't believe they're making a sequel to 300. It's like if Mel Gibson decided to continue his whole Passion of the Christ deal, in 3D.

Well, it's not like there aren't other battles in that very war that could be the subject matter. I doubt the resulting film will be that good, but the premise(fictionalized showing of other events in the Greco-Persian war) isn't ridiculous. I imagine the treatment the film gives those events will be.

[Kitten Champion]

Well, it's not like there aren't other battles in that very war that could be the subject matter. I doubt the resulting film will be that good, but the premise(fictionalized showing of other events in the Greco-Persian war) isn't ridiculous. I imagine the treatment the film gives those events will be.

It's not like important events didn't happen after the Crucifixion either, but you've hit the inspirational climax that everyone's interested in with a self-contained story. It's not ridiculous per say, just woefully anemic.

[Tavar]

I'm not sure that example really works, then, as the 300 movie takes place at the start of hostilities for a war. Yes, the battle of Thermopylae is a self contained section of that war, but I don't think it's out of bounds to also consider the war itself as a unit(or, you know, the other famous battles that also took place in the Greco-Persian wars).

[IronFist]

I still can't believe they're making a sequel to 300. It's like if Mel Gibson decided to continue his whole Passion of the Christ deal, in 3D.

Isn't it a prequel?

[Anteros]

Can you really even consider it a true sequel if basically all the characters from the original movie are dead? It's almost like an entirely different movie loosely affiliated with the original.

I'm not arguing that the movie will be anything but terrible though.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm not sure that example really works, then, as the 300 movie takes place at the start of hostilities for a war. Yes, the battle of Thermopylae is a self contained section of that war, but I don't think it's out of bounds to also consider the war itself as a unit(or, you know, the other famous battles that also took place in the Greco-Persian wars).

From a historical standpoint, certainly - but that's irrelevant. This is from the fictional narrative employed in 300. 300 portrayed the pivotal events from which the war would rapidly change in the Spartan's favour - the turning of tides, the reversal of fortune, the heroic domino toppling the Persian empire.

Once you see the heroes nearly conquer impossible odds, and fight a superhuman battle against the hordes and hordes of merciless enemies, there's no tension in their winning presumably with far more numbers. The war itself was a foregone conclusion after Thermopylae, at least in the fictional terms of Miller's glorified Spartans.


Isn't it a prequel?

I dunno how that'd work.

I suppose you could Millerize any point in or around that era of history and call it a prequel or sequel.

[Zach J.]

Just wanted to jump in and say that the plot of the next 300 movie will most likely concern the story of Themistocles and the Battle of Artemisium and so won't really be a prequel or a sequel. It's concerning events that happened around the same time as the Battle of Thermopylae.

That being said, I'm looking forward to Batman vs. Superman. I enjoyed Man of Steel and while I'm wary of anything that has any input from Frank Miller these days I have faith in Zack Snyder to direct an entertaining action flick.

[Dienekes]

Aaaaand that's it I'm officially done with the DC film universe.

Now I could be wrong here, as I haven't looked at it myself. But from someone I trust reasonably well on the subject (Linkara), Frank Miller actually writes comic book critiques that are intelligent, insightful, and pretty down to earth.

It's just whenever he writes a story all that seems to disappear and replaced with WHOOORRREESSSS!!!! So I won't write it off completely (cause honestly I enjoy a bit of grit with my heroes, so long as the heroes are still heroes), but I will admit this piece of information does leave me wary.

[Traab]

Ok, can someone give me, preferably, the best case scenario to explain the WHOOOOOOOORES!!!! Like, a link or something? Because I have to be honest, I dont read dc comics, so I have no clue wtf this is about.

[Dienekes]

Frank Miller was a talented comicbook writer who had some success making darker deconstructions and gritty comics. His Daredevil comic was apparently genius.

Then he wrote Sin City. A good comic, about the underworld in a terrible city where assassins, murders, and prostitutes run wild. The problem is, he never seems to have stopped writing Sin City since then. So now, everything is over the top violent and unlikeable. There is grit where there really shouldn't be. And most embarrassing of all, EVERY even remotely prominent female character is a prostitute.

[Eldan]

I also remember, I think from Linkara, that he specifically and very explicitely instructs artists to draw every woman as cheesecake.

[Moak]

I also remember, I think from Linkara, that he specifically and very explicitely instructs artists to draw every woman as cheesecake.

Probably a stupid question but... what means to draw women as cheesecakes? Oo

[Dienekes]

I also remember, I think from Linkara, that he specifically and very explicitely instructs artists to draw every woman as cheesecake.

I think it was just his description of Vicki Vale, but I could be wrong. I'll be honest, while I personally find the cheesecake and ass shots gratuitous and juvenile, I understand it's use as a tool to sell a product. Sex sells is a statement for a reason. Though it can get weird, admittedly.

Much worse is altering Selina Kyle's backstory to become a whore, for no reason, in the otherwise awesome Batman: Year One story. It added nothing, was a pointless Sin City style addition to an already plenty gritty and intriguing story, and required writers to jump through hoops and retcons to try and bring Year One into continuity while still having Selina act like the real Selina.


Probably a stupid question but... what means to draw women as cheesecakes? Oo

Obviously designed toward stimulating a sexual response in the viewer (if they are into that gender). I think cheesecake is the specifically female version.

In any case, it meant having every other image of a female being focused on Vicki Vale's posterior and mammaries. With her introduction to the comic being in her lacy underwear for no reason.

Mind you, that's all in All-Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder. Generally regarded as one of the lowest of Frankie's numerous lows. There are so many problems with that comic, a little T&A is one of the least offensive things with it.

[Traab]

Cheescake is sexy women in sexy outfits and sexy poses simply for the sake of being ogled. Beefcake is the male version. If you want cheesecake, look at every single marvel comic panel where the female character is somehow showing off her perfect butt as well as incredible cleavage. Despite it being biologically impossible to point both at us at the same time. While wearing a "costume" that is literally nothing but spray paint on specific parts of a nude body, (because actual clothing is HARD.)

[Tiki Snakes]

Despite it being biologically impossible to point both at us at the same time.

It's many things. But biologically impossible?
Not so much. Not that particular element of it, at least.
http://media.tumblr.com/e9735e7fecd2d1b8449258f0bac7babd/tumblr_inline_mpphr7MCQX1qz4rgp.jpg
Of course, they often end up stuck in that pose with a three inch waist out of alignment with their pelvis and shoulders and many other interesting wtf things, but again, a lot of the time that's because the artist is Rob Liefeld and he's comparably experimental with male anatomy.

The spray-on-costumes do tend towards laziness at times, but only in as much as such tight costumes should still look slightly different to the nude form rather than exactly like it and that's often glossed over. The fact that they are tight costumes though isn't just out of laziness, it's part of the whole stylised nudity thing that Superheroes are about, but thats a very different and involved subject that I'm pretty sure we've just recently discussed in one of the other threads.

[Traab]

It's many things. But biologically impossible?
Not so much. Not that particular element of it, at least.
http://media.tumblr.com/e9735e7fecd2d1b8449258f0bac7babd/tumblr_inline_mpphr7MCQX1qz4rgp.jpg
Of course, they often end up stuck in that pose with a three inch waist out of alignment with their pelvis and shoulders and many other interesting wtf things, but again, a lot of the time that's because the artist is Rob Liefeld and he's comparably experimental with male anatomy.

The spray-on-costumes do tend towards laziness at times, but only in as much as such tight costumes should still look slightly different to the nude form rather than exactly like it and that's often glossed over. The fact that they are tight costumes though isn't just out of laziness, it's part of the whole stylised nudity thing that Superheroes are about, but thats a very different and involved subject that I'm pretty sure we've just recently discussed in one of the other threads.

I was more referring to things like this http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17ei75tbbdnfgjpg/original.jpg

Her spine has snapped, she is doing the splits in midair in a way im fairly sure legs cant bend in order to grant us the perfect shot of her crack, and if her body paint costume didnt go up to her neck in this comic, you could see daylight between the gap in her cleavage.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, the angle her head joins the body is a bit extreme, but other than that the image doesn't look particularly extreme for a character with ninja-acrobat level flexibility. Especially by comparison to some I've seen.

[Traab]

Well, the angle her head joins the body is a bit extreme, but other than that the image doesn't look particularly extreme for a character with ninja-acrobat level flexibility. Especially by comparison to some I've seen.

The fact that she has taken that position in mid air is also a bit strange. But those legs, im pretty sure she is doing the splits and also has her legs splayed out to the side, dislocating them from her hips. Im not saying its totally impossible, I am saying I dont think even a professional acrobat could take that position in mid leap. And I still say she is bent too far backward to not be damaging her spine.

[Tiki Snakes]

The fact that she has taken that position in mid air is also a bit strange. But those legs, im pretty sure she is doing the splits and also has her legs splayed out to the side, dislocating them from her hips. Im not saying its totally impossible, I am saying I dont think even a professional acrobat could take that position in mid leap. And I still say she is bent too far backward to not be damaging her spine.

Not knowing the context, it just looks like she's spinning to me*. One leg is going away from us and to the top of the picture, the other is tucked up towards her torso. I mean, it's drawn a little shakily, but I wouldn't say she's doing the splits particularly.

Also, sure she's arching her back. But, you know what? The human spine is a rather astounding thing.


http://i4.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article594449.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/C_71_article_1328648_image_list_image_list_item_0_ image-594449.jpg

I can't honestly vouch for the reality of the following, but it looks legit. And insane.http://ramage.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/balance.jpg

So, you know. I'm just saying do not underestimate the real world human body.

*EDIT - See "Butterfly Twist" For an example of the kind of thing that I mean.

[Eldan]

Totally possible. I've seen people do that live. Though probably not while in mid-jump and also apparently attacking someone. They do it slowly and carefully while balancing.

That said, superheroes.

[Fan]

Because Frank 'Summon The Whoooooooooores (http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1566)' Miller is someone who really needs to be consulted (http://www.shortpacked.com/2006/comic/book-2-pulls-the-drama-tag/06-the-drama-tag/whores/) on any superhero movie, ever.

Damn straight, the guy is an actual bigot and a cancerous writer to boot.

Burn anything and everything you own that he has ever made, do yourself a damn favor.

God damn I hate Frank Millar.

[lord_khaine]

God damn I hate Frank Millar.

Yeah, this really sounds like the kind of retarded plan that is going to alienate every superman fan that might want to see the movie.

[MLai]

The Dark Knight Returns is still a great graphic novel, no matter your personal opinion due to your legitimate mistrust of Senile!Miller.

That said, it doesn't mean SvB should be consulting Miller. TDKR was an entirely different continuity and characterization.

[lord_khaine]

I certainly pray to dark and alien gods that Miller was just part of a publicity stunt, and that noone is going to listen to him :smalltongue:

[BWR]

Has it been confrimed that Miller will be consulted?
'Consulted' doesn't mean 'decided what goes on'. It could very well mean Snyder will consult Miller for ideas and not use any of them. Or only one small aspect of Miller's ideas would be used, in heavily changed form.

I hope this movie will be a battle of wits. We've seen what Superman can do in a punch-up. Now let's see how he works when he has to think his way through things. Sure, have Superman be super and save a falling plane or something. Maybe even have him tear through a league of mooks looking for Batman (or whatever BBEG he thinks he's after), but have the story be basically a Luthor/Superman plot - chess between two people with the country as the pieces.

[Hopeless]

Has it been confrimed that Miller will be consulted?
'Consulted' doesn't mean 'decided what goes on'. It could very well mean Snyder will consult Miller for ideas and not use any of them. Or only one small aspect of Miller's ideas would be used, in heavily changed form.

I hope this movie will be a battle of wits. We've seen what Superman can do in a punch-up. Now let's see how he works when he has to think his way through things. Sure, have Superman be super and save a falling plane or something. Maybe even have him tear through a league of mooks looking for Batman (or whatever BBEG he thinks he's after), but have the story be basically a Luthor/Superman plot - chess between two people with the country as the pieces.

I've heard in a review that this might be because of the 300 prequel rather than a World's Finest movie so yes I sincerely hope he doesn't go that route or you can kiss Justice League movie goodbye if you want Cavill playing Superman in it!:smallfurious:

[Scowling Dragon]

The Dark Knight Returns is still a great graphic novel, no matter your personal opinion due to your legitimate mistrust of Senile!Miller.

I don't like it, think its greatly over-rated and think its more akin to the starter course of bad before the main course of awful that is The Dark Knight Strikes again.

[Fan]

The Dark Knight Returns is still a great graphic novel, no matter your personal opinion due to your legitimate mistrust of Senile!Miller.

That said, it doesn't mean SvB should be consulting Miller. TDKR was an entirely different continuity and characterization.

No it wasn't.

Part 1 was good. Part 2 was **** for a number of reasons beyond Superman being beat by Batman (who did not do it alone, or even against superman actually fighting him.)

The moral of the story: Big government is bad, rich people are great.

[Scowling Dragon]

The moral of the story: Big government is bad, rich people are Fascism is great.

Going by what miller intended to say.

[Dienekes]

No it wasn't.

Part 1 was good. Part 2 was **** for a number of reasons beyond Superman being beat by Batman (who did not do it alone, or even against superman actually fighting him.)

The moral of the story: Big government is bad, rich people are great.

I kind of figured you'd be one of the first to come out swinging against TDKR. Honestly, I liked it. Yeah Batman beat Superman (and it was awesome), but beyond that Superman didn't come out looking all that bad. This alternate Superman came to a hard decision and decided to support government instead of the opposite and was increasingly put in weird situations because of it. Hell, at one point he essentially saved America from a nuclear assault and let's Batman go in the end figuring out what the plan was.

TDKR was an interesting take on the characters who were former friends forced into confrontation because of their beliefs. Good story. The Batman was portrayed as a hero but not always in the right (Hell, it's his own fault that the Joker gets away from the cops during the interview scene). It was delightfully creepy, despotic, but still strangely hopeful.

The only thing I really have against it as it's own non-canon what-if story is that Selina Kyle was portrayed as an aged madam. Ughh, must you Frank?

Also, rich people were good? Where was this? Bruce was good, what other rich people were there? The other positively portrayed characters were Gordon and Carrie neither of them were wealthy. Queen was sort of, but not to the extent of the other three.

[Fan]

I kind of figured you'd be one of the first to come out swinging against TDKR. Honestly, I liked it. Yeah Batman beat Superman (and it was awesome), but beyond that Superman didn't come out looking all that bad. This alternate Superman came to a hard decision and decided to support government instead of the opposite and was increasingly put in weird situations because of it. Hell, at one point he essentially saved America from a nuclear assault and let's Batman go in the end figuring out what the plan was.

TDKR was an interesting take on the characters who were former friends forced into confrontation because of their beliefs. Good story. The Batman was portrayed as a hero but not always in the right (Hell, it's his own fault that the Joker gets away from the cops during the interview scene). It was delightfully creepy, despotic, but still strangely hopeful.

The only thing I really have against it as it's own non-canon what-if story is that Selina Kyle was portrayed as an aged madam. Ughh, must you Frank?

Also, rich people were good? Where was this? Bruce was good, what other rich people were there? The other positively portrayed characters were Gordon and Carrie neither of them were wealthy. Queen was sort of, but not to the extent of the other three.

It straight up quotes too big to fail when Batman comes in during the nuclear winter to save Gotham. It's an obvious allegory for big business.

It's not about the other characters as portrayed, but it is in the moral conflict between Clark and Bruce.

Let me go ahead and put this out there, I don't hate Batman. He (pre new 52) was one of my favorite Superheroes. Period. Top 10 easily. He's above Green Lantern. (And I know Jayng will lynch me for saying that, given the depths of my opinions he knows.)

Frank "Summon the Whores" Millar is not only a repugnant person, but in this particular instance he continues to force his morality (which is also repugnant.), and views on people through his works.

It's like Twilight and mormonism. It's pretty blatant, and it's pretty offensive, and it is most DEFINITELY not the kind of person I want involved in what should be a TEAM UP.

[Dienekes]

It straight up quotes too big to fail when Batman comes in during the nuclear winter to save Gotham. It's an obvious allegory for big business.

It's not about the other characters as portrayed, but it is in the moral conflict between Clark and Bruce.

Let me go ahead and put this out there, I don't hate Batman. He (pre new 52) was one of my favorite Superheroes. Period. Top 10 easily. He's above Green Lantern. (And I know Jayng will lynch me for saying that, given the depths of my opinions he knows.)

Frank "Summon the Whores" Millar is not only a repugnant person, but in this particular instance he continues to force his morality (which is also repugnant.), and views on people through his works.

It's like Twilight and mormonism. It's pretty blatant, and it's pretty offensive.

I thought the quote was "too big to judge" stated by both Gordon and Yindell. Which was used to bring her onto Batman's side by recognizing that his method (though illegal) was working and what the city needed. Which is basically always been Batman's motif Silver Age and Adam West excluded. Batman is a vigilante, he's just also a resourceful, useful, and good one. If that was supposed to be a "go big business" message, that is one of the most minor and irrelevant ones ever. I didn't notice it, and now that it's pointed out to me, I still only barely see it. In short, it's so minor it doesn't bother me.

I will also say that if you look at my posts on this forum I do not hate Superman. Quite the contrary. But that fight was pretty awesome. Well structured, good build up, and Batman's plan was interesting. The fight with Supes had a lot of weight put behind it.

Now I won't defend Frank as a person. He is repugnant, but I don't think that makes some of his works less good because I know the writer was a ****.

[Fan]

I thought the quote was "too big to judge" stated by both Gordon and Yindell. Which was used to bring her onto Batman's side by recognizing that his method (though illegal) was working and what the city needed. Which is basically always been Batman's motif Silver Age and Adam West excluded. Batman is a vigilante, he's just also a resourceful, useful, and good one. If that was supposed to be a "go big business" message, that is one of the most minor and irrelevant ones ever. I didn't notice it, and now that it's pointed out to me, I still only barely see it. In short, it's so minor it doesn't bother me.

I will also say that if you look at my posts on this forum I do not hate Superman. Quite the contrary. But that fight was pretty awesome. Well structured, good build up, and Batman's plan was interesting. The fight with Supes had a lot of weight put behind it.

Now I won't defend Frank as a person. He is repugnant, but I don't think that makes some of his works less good because I know the writer was a ****.

The debate throughout the fight is what makes it more and more apparent. The big government thing ties in with removing the police influence from the populace and the people being BETTER for it. Combined with Superman having the backing of the military (which seemed to only bring assault rifles.), his endorsement of the Military Industrial complex, and his "naive blind obedience of authority." all point to him being the so called "People's party."

It's frank millar disguising a political debate in which he is heavily biased as a fight.

[Jayngfet]

Alright, lets get some ground stuff set up before we debate, as in the actual important stuff.

Frank Millar, as he is today, in the summer of 2013, is a deranged lunatic. Regardless of how good or bad he was in the past, right now that's not who he is. The Miller they're speaking with right this moment isn't the kind of person they should be giving that level of power to, or any at all.

Honestly there are so many other people who've written Superman who'd take the job: I hear Morrison is trying to bust into the film industry, John Bryne is crazy but less so, and does actual Superman well instead of just TDKR. I mean hell, I'd take Geoff Johns over Frank Millar, and I firmly believe that Geoff Johns is not only a poison to the modern comic industry, but a driving force for most of Green Lanterns film failure.

[Scowling Dragon]

At first I thought "Hes gonna be Harmless. They will immediately recognize that he is insane"

But then I realised that if they even HIRED him by this point, they clearly don't know his latest works and will assume he is a "Quirky Genius".

[WitchSlayer]

I would like to point out, additionally, that it wasn't Dark Knight returns that made Batman serious again, it was actually Denny O'Neil's Batman from the Bronze Age of comics that made him more serious. DKR just got more media attention.

I think Miller is a pretty overrated writer and if I see a glimpse of a vs. in the title of the Superman/Batman movie then I will probably end up yarring it instead of seeing it in theaters.

[Fan]

I would like to point out, additionally, that it wasn't Dark Knight returns that made Batman serious again, it was actually Denny O'Neil's Batman from the Bronze Age of comics that made him more serious. DKR just got more media attention.

I think Miller is a pretty overrated writer and if I see a glimpse of a vs. in the title of the Superman/Batman movie then I will probably end up yarring it instead of seeing it in theaters.

Much the same. As much as I participate in V.S. threads, I do NOT want a Superman V.S. Batman movie.

The two are best friends in comics, and best friends do NOT fight to the death. That paradigm is what established the core of the Justice League, and while I understand bonding through adversity, fighting to the death and becoming friends only happens in magical girl animes.

[Tiki Snakes]

Who's talking about a fight to the death? That's vanishingly rare in comics. It certainly shouldn't be assumed to be what is on the cards here at any stage.

[Psyren]

I think Braniac would be a good villain for this. He's tricks the heroes into fighting each other, after the big-budget contest and inevitable kryptonite ring they figure out they're being duped. But it takes both Superman's brawn and Batman's brain to finally take the fight to him. He sets up the classic superhero conundrum where you can't save everyone and still get the villain, but Batman finds a loophole (most likely by cheating) and they defeat him once and for all. Post-credits, Lex finds the broken android and offers him a job.

[ThePhantasm]

There won't be a fight to the death. This film is a set up for an expanded DC Cinematic Universe, complete with a Justice League movie, etc.

[lord_khaine]

Honestly there are so many other people who've written Superman who'd take the job: I hear Morrison is trying to bust into the film industry, John Bryne is crazy but less so, and does actual Superman well instead of just TDKR. I mean hell, I'd take Geoff Johns over Frank Millar, and I firmly believe that Geoff Johns is not only a poison to the modern comic industry, but a driving force for most of Green Lanterns film failure.

Ohh, i just found something new to pray to my dark overlords for :smalltongue:
And now i hope talking about religion wont get this thread closed

[Jayngfet]

I would like to point out, additionally, that it wasn't Dark Knight returns that made Batman serious again, it was actually Denny O'Neil's Batman from the Bronze Age of comics that made him more serious. DKR just got more media attention.

I think Miller is a pretty overrated writer and if I see a glimpse of a vs. in the title of the Superman/Batman movie then I will probably end up yarring it instead of seeing it in theaters.

Denny O'Neil really is a treasure. He basically took half the justice league and made them better than ever before. He should be a major force in the Live Action Universe. He's the kind of guy who can get the kind of tone they want to go for exactly right and he can do it perfectly even with the kind of heavy upstairs pressure WB is known for exerting.

[Scowling Dragon]

Speaking of Miller. (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/linkara/at4w/40192-at4w-tales-to-offend-1)

Man doesn't miller, love to emphasise at random?