Newbie needs guidance for Spellthief [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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MicManGuy

2013-07-20, 08:04 PM

So I'm finally playing in a 3.5 group for the very first time. I've played mostly 4e but I liked the rules for Star Wars Revised edition so much more and my buddy said it was almost identical to 3.5.

But 3.5 is a really big place. And it's easy to get overwhelmed with the amount of choices. I'm just trying to make a low lvl character, but it takes hours just to sift through a guide's recommended feats, spells, multi-classes, etc. to find something I can actually use at lvl 4.

I decided to play a Spellthief as I've never played a rogue-type class and wanted to play something unique that 4e wouldn't offer. How would you recommend I build my character? Here's an outline of what my character should be:

Spellthief
Level 4
Skillmonkey - frequent use of trapfinding, detect magic, etc.
capable combatant

Things I don't know what to do with:

Race
Weapons - melee? ranged? both? melee thrown? dual wielding?
Spells - spells I can actually get at lvl 4
Feats - What can I focus on? damage? flatfooting? spell stuff?
Multiclassing / Prestige Classes

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Helpful answers

Race
Human (of course)
Strongheart Halflings
Gnome
Neraphim

Weapons
Daggers (2)

Spells

Grease (1st)
Cloud of Knives (2nd)
Whirling Blade (2nd)
Vampiric Touch (3rd)

Feats
Finesse
Shadow Blade
Two-weapon Fighting
Craven
Extend Spell
Smiting Spell

Multiclassing / Prestige Classes
Wizard?
Beguiler?
Assassin
Arcane Trickster
Unseen Seer

Darth Stabber

2013-07-20, 09:06 PM

Spellthief is kind of a 1 lvl class (it's a bit convoluted, but it's a good dip for casters thanks to the "master spellthief" feat). It is a unique class, but it's a touch weaker than a standard rogue, and a standard rogue isn't that strong. If you want to play a rogue that has some magical talents, and either you don't mind being evil or your GM will drop the evil requirement, the rogue5/assassinX is a good start. Since you are starting at level 4, you would just be rogue4, you take 1 more level in rogue and then start taking assassin. Assassin is not the strongest PRC, but it does good things so long as you remember that death attack is not to be used in combat. Adding in a dip in swordsage is nice, but not necessary.

My recommendations

Race: strongheart halfling (trades the bonus to all saves for a bonust feat). If your GM will not allow it, regular halfling or human work pretty well.

Class: rogue, with penetrating strike ACF (it allows half sneak attack vs. Immune targets), it is a very needed ability, and you only trade away your bonus to saves against traps.

Feats:

the twf line (get more attacks to apply sneak attack to),

craven (-2 on saves vs. Fear, which exactly cancels out your halfling bonus, add you level to damage when you use sneak attack),

darkstalker (monsters with weird senses still have to roll spot/listen to find you when you are hiding),

weapon finesse (lets you dump strength and still hit),

shadow blade (lets you add dex to damage instead of strength).

Skills:
hide/move silently: pretty basic, being unseen is helpful.

Use magic device: a good source of magic. Get you some wands and scrolls, and pretend you cast spells until assassin kicks in. So much utility in this skill just remember that it costs some money to use.

spot: not being surprised is important

Search: how you find traps

Disable device: what you do when you find traps

Open lock: I don't know why this isn't part of disable device, but this skill will open doors for you (pun intended)

Bluff: Lying can solve many problems before they start

Sense motive: liars should know their own.

Forgery: requires some imagination, but forgery is opposed by forgery, and almost no one has ranks in forgery. Back it up with bluff for when the "almost" part comes into play.

As far as fighting goes, flanking is the way to go.

If you do go down the spellthief road check fax's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299).

MicManGuy

2013-07-20, 10:08 PM

Spellthief is kind of a 1 lvl class... it's a touch weaker than a standard rogue...
If you do go down the spellthief road check fax's guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299).
I did check that guide out. But every time I looked up something he recommends it assumes I'm lvl 6 or lvl 12 or something. I spent hours and I don't really know how to make a lvl 4 character. Besides, that guy is obsessed with psionics, something I'm avoiding like the plague. My DM doesn't like them.

Thanks for the rogue advice, though. I don't think I'll use any of it, however, because even if I do multiclass out of Spellthief, rogue doesn't count towards the Master Spellthief feat.

gorfnab

2013-07-20, 10:16 PM

MicManGuy

2013-07-20, 11:11 PM

There is another handbook you may want to look into besides the one mentioned by Darth Stabber: Sneak Attacking Spellcasters (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240). Spellthief with the feat Master Spellthief is an interesting dip for a number of sneaky caster based builds.
Yeah I saw that one too. Like I said, these guides list so many options and say nothing about what level you get them at. All I care about is stuff I can use at level 4 (and maybe 2 levels more). Once I wrap my head around that, then I might start planning a bajillion months a head of time.

Even just a sample lvl 4 Spellthief would go a long way.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-20, 11:44 PM

I did check that guide out. But every time I looked up something he recommends it assumes I'm lvl 6 or lvl 12 or something. I spent hours and I don't really know how to make a lvl 4 character. Besides, that guy is obsessed with psionics, something I'm avoiding like the plague. My DM doesn't like them.

Thanks for the rogue advice, though. I don't think I'll use any of it, however, because even if I do multiclass out of Spellthief, rogue doesn't count towards the Master Spellthief feat.

I wasn't suggesting taking both rogue and spellthief (there is some utility in doing so, but that's a different topic entirely). Rogue was listed as an alterntive to, not in addition to spellthief. I was avoiding bringing up what to do with master spellthief since it can get kinda complicated and you said you were new. 1lvl dip into spellthief + primary caster is the combo that makes use of master spellthief, rogue is almost never a feature in that. The only time I see spellthief in a rogue build tends to be something like rogue19/spellthief1 or something like that as a trick to get more sneak attack dice than normal, though spellthief+assassin+master spellthief isn't completely terrible (since assassin is a spellcaster). There is a lot more to it than that, but i'll leave it someone else to explain, because I am a crappy teacher (I'm just loud and opinionated).

Spellthief is a cute class with some neat abilities, but neat=/=effective. The spellcasting can replicated through UMD, while the retarded sneak attack progression hurts pretty bad. If you take the class anyway, you have to be watchful of your resources, as you are fairly versatile, but you aren't that good at anything. If you are intent on doing it might I suggest spellthief5/assassinX? Assassin has a better spell list, and is better at killing people. Also, once you add master spellthief, your Assassin caster level will be significantly higher than most assassins, while also advancing sneak attack faster than spellthief itself. You lose out on the higher level "neat features", but you will be a far more competent combatant. Also an important tactic to remember is to get a spell from the wizard or cleric before fights, if they look askance at the use of their resources, tell them to look at it as a free quicken spell.

Fates

2013-07-21, 12:34 AM

I've found that, in low-mid op games with enough spellcasting enemies, spellthieves aren't half as bad as they're made out to be. Assuming the rest of your party isn't made up of t1s or optimization genei, and your DM is competent enough that he'll ensure you're allowed some time to shine, I doubt you'll lag far behind. As Darth mentioned, Assassin isn't a bad way to go in the long run if you're set on a ST. Unless the rest of your group is pretty far behind, you won't want more than five levels of spellthief; steal SLA is really the last goody that's worth continuing in the class for. But you've made it pretty clear that you're more concerned with the here and now, so that's what I'm going to address.

Taking four straight levels of spellthief nets you steal spells and ongoing spell effects of up to 2nd level, as well as 10 points of energy resistance- unfortunately, with your pitiful +1d6 SA, you'll only be able to steal one of these at once, and doing so removes your SA damage, so it likely will be a situational ability.

As with all rogue types, craven is the word of the day. This feat gives you +1 sneak attack bonus per character level (that's the sum of all your levels) with the trivial side effect of -2 on saves against fear. This is a huge bonus as it more than doubles your average sneak attack output at this level, and allows you to deal extra damage even when stealing spells or energy resistance.

Since you'll likely be prioritizing dexterity, weapon finesse is practically a necessity, replacing strength for dexterity in regards to attack rolls. The aforementioned Shadow Blade is a great feat as well, replacing strength to damage with dexterity, but unless you take a dip in swordsage (not a bad option) you'll need to take both the martial study and martial stance feats first, which is really not a viable option for you.

The only way for rogues to come close to competing with warriors in damage output is by using two-weapon fighting, as it doubles your potential sneak attack output, which also means more stolen goodies for you. Unless you take this one, you'll be lagging behind in damage output quite significantly.

As far as what race to choose, I'd suggest Strongheart Halfling (basically mini humans- those size bonuses are handy for your sort); however, many DMs won't allow this as it's campaign-specific material. Human is of course always a great option because you'll gain another, much needed feat, and more skill points as well. Whisper Gnomes make for excellent stealthy types, with a bonus to dexterity and constitution at the cost of a penalty to strength and charisma. This charisma hit will hurt you a bit because your spellcasting as a spellthief is charisma-based, but seeing as how you'll probably be switching to assassin or some other spellcasting class soon, the chances of this effecting you in the long run are minuscule. Whisper gnomes also get significant bonuses to stealth skills and can use a few handy spell-like abilities as well.

Dexterity is your absolute priority, as with all rogue types. Charisma is less important but you should at least have a respectable score as some of your features will rely on it. Constitution is of course a must, and you'll want to keep intelligence and wisdom at about the same level. Strength will typically be your dump stat as your attacks will be based on dexterity and your damage will be based on sneak attacking.

Assuming your charisma is at least twelve (and it damn well should be), you'll also be choosing two spells known this level. You can choose any 1st-level sorcerer/wizard spell of the abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation schools, at a caster level of half your spellthief level (2). Don't choose spells that allow saves, as chances are your DCs will be pathetically low. Self-buffs and saveless debuffs are your best options. Nerveskitter gives you +5 to initiative as an immediate action, which can help you to go first in combat so as to get your sneak attacks in, and will likely continue to be a useful spell for some time. True Strike grants you a +20 bonus on your next attack, though it takes a standard action to cast so is only viable if you have time on your side. Disguise Self and Silent Image have countless utility and combat uses.

For weapons, you'll basically be restricted to daggers, unfortunately, until you take assassin or whatever else to increase your selection of weaponry.

Hope this helps!

-Fates

Darth Stabber

2013-07-21, 01:26 AM

*snip*

Basically what I was trying to get across, only more eloquent and thorough.

There are several reasons for assassin:

1) int is a far better stat for casting purposes, especially for a skillmonkeys. By taking this road you can put a 12 in cha, and put more in int, which will give you more skills with is important.
2) more sneak attack, spellthieves get it supremely slow.
3) poison is awesome (though note that it is expensive).
4) by virtue of assassin being a spellcasting class master spellthief allows you to continue being good at the really good spellthief features, while giving you the good assassin features, and death attack (listed separately because it's not a good feature). You pretty much get your peanut butter and your chocolate that way.

Feats you need:
*Two weapon fighting - as noted it doubles your damage output/stealing

*weapon finesse - hitting things is important, being able to dump strength and still hit is great. Ranged sneak attacking is a touch safer, but at the cost of turning off the best/easiest sneak attack enabler, flanking. So you are probably going to melee.

*craven - this feat is huge, even at level 4, that is 4 extra damage per attack, +8 if both hits. Given your smaller number of sneak attack dice, and proclivity for forgoing them, it's even more important for you than rogues

Feats down the road

*improved/greater two weapon fighting - these are kind of a tax for this style of combat, but don't mess with the tax man.

*dark stalker - blindsight, blindsense, tremorsense, ect. will ruin your day if you are the stealthy type. Avoid them with this.

*psithief + hidden talent - this is a cute combo, but requires two feats. I hope the power you pick is worth it. Actually don't do this. I am a very pro-psionics GM and in the past year of the game I have been running the party has fought 1 wilder, and 2 psychic warriors (and they had no idea that either were psychic warriors and not just fighters), psithief is a joke unless your GM loves throwing things with psionics at you (and psylikes don't count).

A dip into rogue, purely for the penetrating strike ACF is not a terrible call. You don't want to have done it by level 4, but at any point after you start assassin is prime time. The ability to get half of your sneak attack is much better than getting nothing. There are several ways to get the full sneak attack against those immune, but none are this easy.

MicManGuy

2013-07-21, 01:34 AM

... Taking four straight levels of spellthief nets you steal spells and ongoing spell effects of up to 2nd level, as well as 10 points of energy resistance- unfortunately, with your pitiful +1d6 SA, you'll only be able to steal one of these at once, and doing so removes your SA damage, so it likely will be a situational ability...
Wait... I thought that spell stealing took away ALL of the sneak attack damage. Are you saying that for every +1d6 of sneak attack damage I can choose to steal another spell or leave it as damage?

Thanks for the help, btw. I was also playing around with the idea of getting a 2nd lvl spell as soon as possible so that I could get Master Spellthief early (maybe Spellthief 1 / Wizard 3 or something). But the last thing I want to do is sacrifice my skills.

The whole point of this guy is to be a skill monkey rather than a damage dealer.

...
There are several reasons for assassin:

1) int is a far better stat for casting purposes, especially for a skillmonkeys. By taking this road you can put a 12 in cha, and put more in int, which will give you more skills with is important.
2) more sneak attack, spellthieves get it supremely slow.
3) poison is awesome (though note that it is expensive).
4) by virtue of assassin being a spellcasting class master spellthief allows you to continue being good at the really good spellthief features, while giving you the good assassin features, and death attack (listed separately because it's not a good feature). You pretty much get your peanut butter and your chocolate that way....

Hmmm... Given that more sneak attack means more spells, I see the appeal of the Assassin now. I think I may look into it some more.

I was also looking at Unseen Seer. The only thing I don't like about that class, though, was the abysmal d4 hit die like the wizard. Though, I may be able to somehow pull off a dagger-throwing wizard-like spellthief if I went Neraph.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-07-21, 02:39 AM

Darth Stabber

2013-07-21, 05:22 AM

[QUOTE=Dusk Eclipse;15662115]Errr what? there are only 6 mentions of the word psionics on that guide and Fax only mentions them twice, one for the races and one for a niche feat. I don't see how that counts as "obsessed".

Yeah, the guide is just about right on psionics mentions. Most guides are written with the idea that all official material is on the table, and you can ignore what isn't allowed. This guide is no exception. Given that a small amount of psionics is easy to acquire, and usable for more than "spell casting" it's nice to point those options out. Most of guides for non-psionic classes cover about that much (except for tier 1-2 guides, and even then, mental pinnacle is a pretty good spell for wizards). Psionic feats are powerful, but balanced by the need for psionic focus, which is almost trivial to acquire the minimum 1pp needed to have a focus.

MicManGuy

2013-07-22, 08:58 PM

DR27

2013-07-22, 09:15 PM

I like spellthief 1 -> Beguiler -> Unseen Seer

Add a mindbender dip if the game goes long enough. Darth Stabber has it all right on the feats, etc.

Waddacku

2013-07-22, 09:17 PM

There's a feat to feint as a move action. It's still terrible, since you only get one attack that way (your standard action).

TWF is for two reasons: first, your weapon damage is negligible, but you get sneak attack damage on every attack. More attacks = more damage.
Second, for a spellthief, every additional attack is another spell, spell-like ability, or spell effect stolen. Removing one slot from the caster isn't that big of a deal. Removing all of his highest level spells is.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-23, 01:04 AM

Thanks for the help guys. I decided to wade knee deep and read absolutely everything in those guides.

After a long amount of work, I decided to get Spellthief 2 / Beguiler 2 so I could cast my own spells. With Precocious Apprentice I can qualify for early Master Spellthief at lvl 3. And at level 6 I can take the Unseen Seer PrC.

I was planning on taking flaws to get 2-weapon fighting but I don't see the point. I have to take a full round action in order to attack twice. What's the point in that? Also feinting takes a standard action. I don't understand. These approaches seem so useless to me.

Not to mention it makes no sense. You have two arms. Attack at the same time. And which is going to take longer? Running 30ft or a feint?

Also are there any rules about redundant class features? It seems a waste to get double armored mage and double trapfinding. I just went beguiler for the skills and huge list of known spells.

1) you need to switch your first level to beguiler if you want to take precocious apprentice, unless you want it to apply to your spellthief progression (precocious apprentice is a first level only feat).

2) two weapon fighting is key, at low levels it double your number of attacks, and you should look into ways getting extra movement to allow move+full attack, or not bother at all. Standard action attacks are just aweful, especially for sneak attackers.

3) armored mage is not redundant. armored mage states that it only applies to the casting given by the class that provides armored mage. Thus one instance covers your spellthief casting, and one covers your beguiler casting, meaning neither is effected by light armor, if you had gone spellthief/wizard, you would still suffer spell failure in light armor with your wizard spells since armored mage only covers your spellthief casting in that example.

4) feinting is terrible, you should generally avoid it. Beguiler can kinda use it for the casting benefits beguiler gives (not great, but if you weren't going to move anyway), but for stabbing people it sucks.,

Thespianus

2013-07-23, 01:16 AM

MicManGuy

2013-07-23, 01:32 AM

1) you need to switch your first level to beguiler if you want to take precocious apprentice, unless you want it to apply to your spellthief progression (precocious apprentice is a first level only feat).

The spell I want is from the Spellthief progression. For the permanent effect, it doesn't say "When you can cast 2nd level spells from your chosen school of magic..." It just says, "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells..." So it's my way of getting a Spellthief attack spell (because Beguiler doesn't really have any).

2) two weapon fighting is key, at low levels it double your number of attacks, and you should look into ways getting extra movement to allow move+full attack, or not bother at all. Standard action attacks are just aweful, especially for sneak attackers.

mmk. How would I get extra move actions?

3) armored mage is not redundant...etc.

It's redundant for me. I get the Master Spellthief feat. I think there's a Spellthief varient that lets me drop trapfinding. unfortunately I think it just gives me more spells and less skills, which I don't really need on two counts.

4) feinting is terrible, you should generally avoid it. Beguiler can kinda use it for the casting benefits beguiler gives (not great, but if you weren't going to move anyway), but for stabbing people it sucks.,
Yeah I'm going to look for a varient that replaces the Beguiler's useless feinting nonsense.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-23, 04:00 AM

The spell I want is from the Spellthief progression. For the permanent effect, it doesn't say "When you can cast 2nd level spells from your chosen school of magic..." It just says, "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells..." So it's my way of getting a Spellthief attack spell (because Beguiler doesn't really have any).

I just figured you want the beguiler spell. Honestly I rarely see precocious apprentice outside of wizard or theurge builds. Also note that there aren't that many good 2nd level attack spells. Scorching ray is alright, but not as good as people seem to think.

mmk. How would I get extra move actions?
travel devotion, hustle, lion's charge, barbarian dip, belt of battle, or the tigerclaw swift action jump thing, just off the top of my head. The key is that you need either pounce, swift/free action movement (or teleport), or extra actions. Any of the three will do. The tiger claw jump is particularly good if you are willing to dip a level of swordsage (which can do great things for sneak attackers), or warblade (not as good, but still good)

It's redundant for me. I get the Master Spellthief feat. I think there's a Spellthief varient that lets me drop trapfinding. unfortunately I think it just gives me more spells and less skills, which I don't really need on two counts.

armored mage is explicitly not redundant. In both entries is specifically states that it only applies to that classes spells. If you trade one of the armored mages away then one of your caster progressions becomes affected by spell failure. If you can swap trapfinding, good, get rid of one of them, it's a dead ability. I don't know of any acfs for trapfinding in either of those classes, but if you find one let me know, because that sounds like useful knowledge, and the only class I know of tht has acfs for that feature is rogue.

Yeah I'm going to look for a varient that replaces the Beguiler's useless feinting nonsense.

Again I don't know of any acfs for this either, but using it get those weird cloaked casting bonuses is actually semi useful as it adds to save dcs and makes sr easier to get around, at serious risk. Just don't try to sneak attack with it.

Thespianus

2013-07-23, 04:59 AM

The spell I want is from the Spellthief progression. For the permanent effect, it doesn't say "When you can cast 2nd level spells from your chosen school of magic..." It just says, "When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells..." So it's my way of getting a Spellthief attack spell (because Beguiler doesn't really have any).
What attack spell do you have your mind set on? As a Spellthief, you get wizard/sorcerer spells from the schools of Abjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Illusion and Transmutation.

While there are great spells in those schools, they are not known for their attack capabilities. Whirling Blade, however, might be fun to use, as it is possible to get Sneak Attacks on all the attacks made during the spell (assuming good tactical setup or surprise round), assuming your DM hasn't banned Wraithstrike, which will be useful, even borderline necessary, for you if you want to go the TWF route. Bladeweave can be very interesting as well, especially if you can get your DM to approve the Complete Adventurer version, rather than the Spell Compendium version. With the Complete Adventurer version, you get a separate touch attack to deliver a Daze effect, but since there is an attack roll involved, you also get your Sneak Attack damage included in that attack (Negative Energy damage type, I think)

An alternative to the TWF feat route is to get EWP Spiked Chain. The spiked chain is Finesse-able, it gives you 10ft reach (increasing the potential flanking sneak attacks you can make) as well as the ability to attack adjacent squares, you hold it with both hands so you get 1.5x your strength bonus (if any), and you can make disarm attacks with a bonus, if you ever feel that need arising ;)

It may feel thematically weird, though, and if you feel hell-bent on TWF, this won't help you much.

MicManGuy

2013-07-23, 06:28 AM

...travel devotion...lion's charge... Travel Devotion looks helpful. And Lion's Charge actually looks very useful. If only I had room for more spells...

...armored mage is explicitly not redundant. In both entries is specifically states that it only applies to that classes spells... I don't know of any acfs for this...
Not with the Master Spellthief feat:
"...In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor..."

Sadly, it's a moot point. I checked and there's no variant that gets rid of Armored Mage and NO variants at all for Beguiler. Maybe I can convince him to let me use a Rogue variant... Not that they're all that good. Now that I think about it, are there any variants for Duskblade or Warmage that get rid of Armored Mage? If there are, I could try asking about that, too.

As a Spellthief/Beguiler, you will be very squishy. Unless you can get Blinding Color Surge , getting very close to enemies can be a bad thing. Full Attacks is hard to pull off, and you have low BAB, you will miss a lot with TWF.

...Whirling Blade, however, might be fun to use... Wraithstrike, which will be useful, even borderline necessary, for you if you want to go the TWF route. Bladeweave can be very interesting as well...

An alternative to the TWF feat route is to get EWP Spiked Chain. The spiked chain is Finesse-able, it gives you 10ft reach
Some great suggestions here. Yeah, I was thinking of Whirling Blade. Although, Bladeweave looks great as well. I don't really get the point of touch attacks... Could you explain why Wraithstrike is worth it? Doesn't it keep me from doing a full-round attack since it only lasts 1 round?

I was also planning on getting Cloud of Knives through Beguiler's Advanced Learning feature.

Spiked Chain! I forgot all about reach weapons! That's a really great idea... that's now my fallback plan if TWF or dagger throwing doesn't work out.

Darth Stabber

2013-07-23, 09:44 AM

Travel Devotion looks helpful. And Lion's Charge actually looks very useful. If only I had room for more spells...

You are picking up a 2nd level spell for spellthief, you could use that to grap it. And don't forget about flaws

Not with the Master Spellthief feat:
"...In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast or stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor..."

Ah, I thought it was just stolen spells.

Sadly, it's a moot point. I checked and there's no variant that gets rid of Armored Mage and NO variants at all for Beguiler. Maybe I can convince him to let me use a Rogue variant... Not that they're all that good. Now that I think about it, are there any variants for Duskblade or Warmage that get rid of Armored Mage? If there are, I could try asking about that, too.

If you get access to a rogue acf to replace trapfinding, poison use isn't a bad one.

Another_Poet

2013-07-23, 09:55 AM

Maybe someone has already said this, but my recommendation is a little different: don't use the guides.

I mean, I love optimizing and I've really enjoyed carefully building controller wizards with ridiculous god-like stats/abilities at mid levels. There's nothing wrong with the guides that dedicated forumites have made - in fact, they're solid gold.

But I wouldn't have wanted my first experience with 3.5 to be hours of hunting through anything - nor would I have wanted to stew over lengthy advice on how to make the absolute strongest Spellthief possible (as awesome and well-meaning as that advice is).

Maybe just read the feats in the book and think about which ones sound coolest. Your GM and friends can warn you away if you're choosing one that is totally worthless - otherwise who cares?

One of my first 3.5 characters was a Druid/Fighter with an exotic weapon proficiency feat. What a terrible idea! I used him in two campaigns and I had a great time.

There's nothing incompatible between good fun/good roleplay and optimizing - but optimizing is hard work, and when you're new to a system it's really hard work. Maybe just focus on the roleplay side for now. You'll learn what's super-powerful and what isn't soon enough.

Just thoughts.

Thespianus

2013-07-23, 10:20 AM

Some great suggestions here. Yeah, I was thinking of Whirling Blade. Although, Bladeweave looks great as well. I don't really get the point of touch attacks... Could you explain why Wraithstrike is worth it? Doesn't it keep me from doing a full-round attack since it only lasts 1 round?

I was also planning on getting Cloud of Knives through Beguiler's Advanced Learning feature.

Spiked Chain! I forgot all about reach weapons! That's a really great idea... that's now my fallback plan if TWF or dagger throwing doesn't work out.
The point of touch attacks is that the Touch AC of most monsters will be a lot (and I mean ALOT ) lower than the regular Armor Class. An Old Red Dragon has an Armor Class of 33 while the touch AC is only 8 (EIGHT!)

If you go with the TWF route, you will be making most of your attacks with a -2 To Hit penalty, and at level 4, with Beguiler 3/Spellthief 1, your BAB will be 2. So you will Full Attack with only your Dex bonus and the bonus of your weapon. Sure, Flanking bonuses will help (+2), but compared to a Sword-wielding Fighter, you will have an total To Hit bonus of +4 (Dex of 18, maybe?) and a +1 weapon, ie +5, +7 with Flanking.

A Barbarian in the same situation will be attacking with +4 (BAB) +6 (Str 22 when Raging) +1 (weapon) +2 Flanking, ie an Attack Bonus of +13. You will miss a lot compared to a regular Melee character.

Also, you will have about half of the Barbarian's Hit Points. So Reach is good.

I also realized that it might be really hard to use Wraithstrike with Extend or Persist Meta Magic, since you won't be leveling up as a Spellthief. So maybe Wriathstrike as a spell is bad anyway. Get it as a Wand, perhaps.

Regularly, Wraithstrike really shines when used together with Extend or Persistent Meta Magic boosts, and then you get into pretty deep cheese.

But the main point here is: You have very few hit points, so you should stay somewhat away from the front line. A Reach Weapon will help there. TWF with knives means you are very up close and personal. It might get too hot for your Hit Points :)

The Spellthief use of Precocious Apprentice (like you do here) is new to me, I will spend some time finding a spell that might be really cool in that situation.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot about Alter Self, because we nerf it a bit at our table. Check out the benefits here (I hope I can link to the wizard's Forum):

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871862/3.5Forms_for_Alter_Self

MicManGuy

2013-07-23, 10:24 AM

Maybe someone has already said this, but my recommendation is a little different: don't use the guides....

... optimizing is hard work, and when you're new to a system it's really hard work. Maybe just focus on the roleplay side for now. You'll learn what's super-powerful and what isn't soon enough.
Fair advice. But building and optimizing a character is one of my favorite parts of a tabletop game. It gets my creative juices flowing and I just LOVE wasting time on it.

That being said, you make a good point about roleplay. I love roleplaying about 300% more than combat. That's why I wanted to play the role of the rogue. I love using skills, but I didn't want to just be the same old rogue class. I wanted something unique and interesting. Really, I picked one of the worst classes if not THE worst class to play for my first time.

The place I'm at right now is trying to decide on my race between Neraph for the free sneak attacks or human for more skills. I've been going back and forth on it and I think I might just go with what sounds the most fun to roleplay.

Neraph's racial power sounds super tight, but I think because I've never played human before, now is the time. I have a lot of good reasons to actually want to use the race this time around.

Thanks for the sage advice!

Darth Stabber

2013-07-23, 10:31 AM

Really, I picked one of the worst classes if not THE worst class to play for my first time.

Not really, ninja, samurai, monk, dragon shaman, healer, and several other classes are all worse. It's just that it main shtick is crud, where as the skill monkey with spells part is good enough to merit a second look.

MicManGuy

2013-07-23, 10:42 AM

The point of touch attacks is that the Touch AC of most monsters will be a lot (and I mean ALOT ) lower than the regular Armor Class. An Old Red Dragon has an Armor Class of 33 while the touch AC is only 8 (EIGHT!)...

...You have very few hit points, so you should stay somewhat away from the front line...
Hmm I see.

I'm a little confused why I'm supposed to focus so much on staying away, though. I have as much hp as any rogue.

Thespianus

2013-07-23, 11:02 AM

Hmm I see.

I'm a little confused why I'm supposed to focus so much on staying away, though. I have as much hp as any rogue.

Rogues need to stay away as well. They're not really front liners. ;)

Alter Self can give you good boosts to Natural Armor. Here's a playground-link that is more recent: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200138

Darth Stabber

2013-07-23, 01:20 PM

But the main point here is: You have very few hit points, so you should stay somewhat away from the front line. A Reach Weapon will help there. TWF with knives means you are very up close and personal. It might get too hot for your Hit Points :)

I may be alone in this sentiment, but I'm going to offer it anyway.

"Low HP" is not that as big a deal as ability to make things not alive anymore. Offense is the best defense, and dead men don't swing back. You're a dex class, grab some good armor and a protective spell, then get in there and cut things up. Archery sucks, and is very limited, sniping is insanely low output. If you aren't contributing, you're dead weigh. You have all sorts of cool abilities that rely on combat, and ranged combat is weak, so jump in daggers first. If you really want to have the option to reach out and touch some one, grab some extra daggers to throw, but don't invest too heavily in it, it's a plan B.

Thespianus

2013-07-23, 01:40 PM

I may be alone in this sentiment, but I'm going to offer it anyway.

"Low HP" is not that as big a deal as ability to make things not alive anymore. Offense is the best defense, and dead men don't swing back.

While this is true, the dead man's alive buddies might. ;)

Naturally, a Rogue-type character should get into the fray, but being caught with 2-3 enemies nearby is a lot more dangerous for a D6 guy than a D12 guy. With a reach weapon, it is easier to end up with 2 squares between you and the dead guy's buddies, to avoid full attacks

With a Spellthief/Wizard build, you can almost expect to see Abrupt Jaunt as this lifeline, with a Spellthief/Beguiler it gets trickier. Starting off with Glitterdust, Blinding Color Sure and Sleep will go a longer way than leaping in with knives drawn at level 4.

EDIT: I missed the Beguiler 2/Spellthief 2 design further back. So no level 2 Beguiler spells at level 4. Why go Spelltheif 2? @OP

Darth Stabber

2013-07-23, 03:36 PM

While this is true, the dead man's alive buddies might. ;)

Naturally, a Rogue-type character should get into the fray, but being caught with 2-3 enemies nearby is a lot more dangerous for a D6 guy than a D12 guy. With a reach weapon, it is easier to end up with 2 squares between you and the dead guy's buddies, to avoid full attacks

With a Spellthief/Wizard build, you can almost expect to see Abrupt Jaunt as this lifeline, with a Spellthief/Beguiler it gets trickier. Starting off with Glitterdust, Blinding Color Sure and Sleep will go a longer way than leaping in with knives drawn at level 4.

EDIT: I missed the Beguiler 2/Spellthief 2 design further back. So no level 2 Beguiler spells at level 4. Why go Spelltheif 2? @OP

The problem is that sneak attack demands a large number of attacks, and reach weapons are not conducive to that strategy (unless you want to roll a diopsid and ignore dex, which is a decent option, even with +1 LA, but that's not what the OP is after). 2H'ers are for fighter types, not rogue types, you don't have the strength to deal enough damage to make up for the reduced number of attacks. Starting off with a spell is nice, but you then forgo the free SA you get when you win initiative (probably worth it most of the time, but it's worthy of keeping in mind).

I'm curious as to where the OP is planning on going with st2/b2.

Thespianus

2013-07-24, 02:07 AM

The problem is that sneak attack demands a large number of attacks, and reach weapons are not conducive to that strategy
I don't really agree with sneak attacks demands a large number of attacks. It's easy to create a "Flurry of Misses" with TWF, and then you don't deliver a lot of hurt anyway. TWF demands a large number of hits, though. ;) And, the Feat Tree for TWF, if you want to go that far, is expensive.

As I said, with Wraithstrike, this problem is removed for TWF:ers, but it is also kind of cheesy, in my mind. But that's just me :)

And you might argue that a -2 isn't all that bad, but with the low BAB that you already have with the 3/4 progression, the misses will pile up. (TWF rogue/wizard/Unseen Seer is my current character, I know the problems involved in hitting without Wraithstrike)

Also, combining casting with TWF is hard, as you need a hand free to wave around for casting.

But TWF is soo stylish, and cool. So I keep doing it, eventhough I miss alot. :)

MicManGuy

2013-07-25, 07:52 AM

Why go Spelltheif 2? @OP

I'm curious as to where the OP is planning on going with st2/b2.
Well the original reason was to avoid XP penalities... But I plan on being human now, so I guess I don't need to. Still, Detect magic as spell-like ability, spellgrace, and steal spell effect are all nice. Do you not think it's worth it?

Darth Stabber

2013-07-25, 02:19 PM

Well the original reason was to avoid XP penalities... But I plan on being human now, so I guess I don't need to. Still, Detect magic as spell-like ability, spellgrace, and steal spell effect are all nice. Do you not think it's worth it?

My personal opinion of spellthief is "dip one and done" trick for casters. If you want to try and make it work I would do 5 levels and hop out, probably into assassin. Yeah you will have to wait to grab master spellthief, but it's worth it. You have to spend some time without the benefits of being able to steal relevant spells, but you will get it back and in the mean time you are back stabbing skillmonkey.