PDA

View Full Version : Dread Fang (3.5 Prestige Class, PEACH)



Everynone
2013-07-21, 05:23 PM
Dread Fang

"You see this? This 'tiny little knife' can end you faster than I can blink. Want to see?" - Jessica Arcus, a Dread Fang

The practice of wielding two weapons in combat is one not entirely unknown to hardened practitioners of war. For some, it is merely a means to an end. For others, it is an end in and of itself. 'Dread Fang' is a term used to identify those who have dedicated their mastery of battle to a very specific type of combat; using a smaller weapon in each hand to maximum effect. The name is a colloquialism in reference to the twin daggers most dread fangs choose to wield. Usually, aside from this, the only common thread between two dead fangs is lethality using their chosen weapons, and how mangled their opponents become after facing down an embodiment of wrath and steel.


Hit Die: d8


Requirements

To qualify to become a dread fang, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Base Attack Bonus: +6 or higher

Feats: Combat Finesse, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: one-handed small or smaller slashing melee weapon

Skills: Balance 5 ranks

Abilities: Dexterity 18 or higher


Class Skills

The dread fang’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier


Class Features

All of the following are class features of the dread fang prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dread fangs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.

Favored Weapon: The weapon that the dread fang has weapon focus in is the weapon type for which all abilities that mention 'favored weapon' are used. If the dread fang has Weapon Focus in more than one weapon, they must choose one to which this applies.

Lethality (Ex): Whenever the dread fang successfully hits an opponent that is flat-footed with a normal melee attack, she deals extra damage for every hit. This damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 for every 2 levels afterward. This does not count as sneak attack damage for the purposes of qualifying for other prestige classes or feats. This damage does not apply to extra attacks granted outside the typical iterative attack spread, such as those granted by the Speed property or Rending Strikes.

Bleeding Cut (Ex): Whenever the dread fang successfully hits an opponent in melee with their favored weapon, the opponent must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + the dread fang's level + her Dex modifier or take damage equal to her class level for a number of rounds equal to her class level. This damage cannot be resisted, but the blood flow can be halted with a full-round action dedicated to making a Heal check (DC is equal to the fortitude DC). This ability does not stack with itself, nor does it affect creatures without blood.

Fast Movement (Ex): The 2nd level dread fang's base land speed increases by 10 whenever she is wearing light or no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavier load. This speed bonus increases by 5 feet for every 2 levels thereafter, for a total of +30 at level 10.

Rending Strikes (Ex): If the dread fang makes a full attack action with her favored weapon type in each hand against an opponent and hits with at least 3 attacks, they deal damage from their most damaging attack that round twice.

Sharp Edge (Ex): A 4th level dread fang increases the critical threat range of her favored weapon by 1. This ability stacks with the Improved Critical feat and the Keen property.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting: At 5th level, the dread fang gains this feat for free.

Total Balance (Ex): At 6th level, the dread fang no longer takes any penalty to attack bonus from wielding two weapons. Iterative attacks with the main or offhand weapon still apply a -5 penalty per extra attack, however. In addition, she gains a +5 bonus to all Balance, Tumble, and Jump checks.

Whirlwind Attack (Ex): This ability, granted at 7th level, acts exactly like the feat of the same name, except that the dread fang makes two attacks at her full base attack bonus against each foe within range, as opposed to one.

Improved Bleeding Cut (Ex): Whenever an 8th level dread fang successfully hits an opponent in melee with her favored weapon, the opponent must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + the dread fang's level + her Dex modifier or take 4 points of temporary Constitution damage. This still applies the Bleeding property for class abilities that utilize it, and does not stack with itself. The Con damage can only be removed with a successful Heal check equal to the fortitude save DC. This ability improves upon (does not stack with) Bleeding Cut.

Improved Rending Strikes (Ex): A 9th level dread fang in an expert and dishing out the most pain for a series of strikes. During an attack, whenever she successfully hits with two attacks, she rolls damage for three and maximized the third, to a maximum of two extra attacks. Thus, if a dread fang hits four times, she rolls damage as normal, but adds the maximum damage she could make with a normal attack that round twice more. This feature improved upon (does not stack with) Rending Strikes.

Master Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): A 10th level dread fang has become an expert at wielding two smaller weapons for a much bigger effect. At this level, she can make as many off-hand attacks as she can make with her main hand. The Speed property and similar magical effects do not qualify as main hand attacks for this purpose. In addition, she adds her full strength bonus to her off-hand damage, rather than one half.


Table: The Dread Fang
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Refl|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Lethality (+1d6), Favored Weapon
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+0|Bleeding Cut, Fast Movement
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Lethality (+2d6), Rending Strikes
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Sharp Edge
5th|+5|+4|+4|+1|Lethality (+3d6), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
6th|+6|+5|+5|+2|Total Balance
7th|+7|+5|+5|+2|Lethality (+4d6), Whirlwind Attack
8th|+8|+6|+6|+2|Improved Bleeding Cut
9th|+9|+6|+6|+3|Lethality (+5d6), Improved Rending Strikes
10th|+10|+7|+7|+3|Master Two-Weapon Fighting[/table]

Xerlith
2013-07-21, 06:05 PM
I'm gonna be harsh, I guess.


Hit Die: d8


Requirements

To qualify to become a dread fang, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Base Attack Bonus: +6 or higher

Feats: Combat Finesse, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: one-handed small or smaller slashing melee weapon

Skills: Balance 5 ranks

Abilities: Dexterity 18 or higher

I'd drop the Dexterity requirement. It leads to a problem I'll describe later

Class Skills

The dread fang’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points: 6 + Int modifier (× 4 at 1st level)

Nice skillmonkeyish list. good skill points. Concentration? Why here? Also, as it is a PrC, the parenthesis is not needed.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the dread fang prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dread fangs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor.

m'kay

Favored Weapon: The weapon that the dread fang has weapon focus in is the weapon type for which all abilities that mention 'favored weapon' are used. If the dread fang has Weapon Focus in more than one weapon, they must choose one to which this applies.

Lethality (Ex): Whenever the dread fang successfully hits an opponent that is flat-footed with a normal melee attack, she deals extra damage for every hit. This damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 for every 2 levels afterward. This does not count as sneak attack damage for the purposes of qualifying for other prestige classes or feats. This damage does not apply to extra attacks granted outside the typical iterative attack spread, such as those granted by the Speed property or Rending Strikes.

This is... Weak. Why not count as a Sneak Attack? Also, you ARE aware that the wording of this makes it impossible to work with AoOs, Haste and similar attack granting conditions?

Bleeding Cut (Ex): Whenever the dread fang successfully hits an opponent in melee with their favored weapon, the opponent must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + the dread fang's level + her Dex modifier or take damage equal to her class level for a number of rounds equal to her class level. This damage cannot be resisted, but the blood flow can be halted with a full-round action dedicated to making a Heal check (DC is equal to the fortitude DC). This ability does not stack with itself, nor does it affect creatures without blood.

Well, this seems okay. Although scalling x with x seems a little... strange. 2-4-9-16-etc?

Fast Movement (Ex): The 2nd level dread fang's base land speed increases by 10 whenever she is wearing light or no armor and is not carrying a medium or heavier load. This speed bonus increases by 5 feet for every 2 levels thereafter, for a total of +30 at level 10.

Fair enough. Nothing to say here

Rending Strikes (Ex): If the dread fang makes a full attack action with her favored weapon type in each hand against an opponent and hits with at least 3 attacks, they deal damage from their most damaging attack that round twice.

Oooh...kay? I'd rather just have it treated as a confirmed critical. Hardness issues.

Sharp Edge (Ex): A 4th level dread fang increases the critical threat range of her favored weapon by 1. This ability stacks with the Improved Critical feat and the Keen property.

A weaponmaster-like ability. Okay.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting: At 5th level, the dread fang gains this feat for free.

A fighter-bonus feat. Okay. What happens if you have it already?

Total Balance (Ex): At 6th level, the dread fang no longer takes any penalty to attack bonus from wielding two weapons. Iterative attacks with the main or offhand weapon still apply a -5 penalty per extra attack, however. In addition, she gains a +5 bonus to all Balance, Tumble, and Jump checks.

This is nice, with Greater Two Weapon fighting gained a level before.

Whirlwind Attack (Ex): This ability, granted at 7th level, acts exactly like the feat of the same name, except that the dread fang makes two attacks at her full base attack bonus against each foe within range, as opposed to one.

This I really like. Simple, yet not too weak. Although gained a little late.

Improved Bleeding Cut (Ex): Whenever an 8th level dread fang successfully hits an opponent in melee with her favored weapon, the opponent must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + the dread fang's level + her Dex modifier or take 4 points of temporary Constitution damage. This still applies the Bleeding property for class abilities that utilize it, and does not stack with itself. The Con damage can only be removed with a successful Heal check equal to the fortitude save DC. This ability improves upon (does not stack with) Bleeding Cut.

It's okay. Does it stack with itself?

Improved Rending Strikes (Ex): A 9th level dread fang in an expert and dishing out the most pain for a series of strikes. During an attack, whenever she successfully hits with two attacks, she rolls damage for three and maximized the third, to a maximum of two extra attacks. Thus, if a dread fang hits four times, she rolls damage as normal, but adds the maximum damage she could make with a normal attack that round twice more. This feature improved upon (does not stack with) Rending Strikes.

Okay. You might want to clarify the description, though.

Master Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): A 10th level dread fang has become an expert at wielding two smaller weapons for a much bigger effect. At this level, she can make as many off-hand attacks as she can make with her main hand. The Speed property and similar magical effects do not qualify as main hand attacks for this purpose. In addition, she adds her full strength bonus to her off-hand damage, rather than one half.

So. Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. And a strength bonus. Is that all? Also, if this requires 18 dexterity, the strength bonus to damage is going to be miniscule either way. Without min-maxing wildly, of course.


To sum up - this class does not much more than, say, a Fighter/Rogue can achieve. Except it requires less dexterity to do so.
Most of its abilities can be emulated by a rogue dipping 1-2 levels in fighter and then PrCing out for some full-BAB class.
It needs some more fleshed out abilities that aren't just numerical bonuses and, well, arent just fighter bonus feats.
Also - Fluff. Dread Fang? Where is the Dread? When does it show the fang? Answer this with abilities or with their descriptions. Now I see a.. Tempest/Dervish.

Overneath
2013-07-21, 07:17 PM
(This is Everynone's partner in crime posting)

You brought a lot of good points to the table, Xerlith.



I'm gonna be harsh, I guess.

I'd drop the Dexterity requirement. It leads to a problem I'll describe later

Mm, true. Would simply stating that Dexterity needs to be higher than Strength be more suitable?



Nice skillmonkeyish list. good skill points. Concentration? Why here? Also, as it is a PrC, the parenthesis is not needed.

Concentration (despite its nigh-uselessness to the trade) always struck me as much as a combat skill as a magic skill. Call it a roleplaying trait, I suppose.



This is... Weak. Why not count as a Sneak Attack? Also, you ARE aware that the wording of this makes it impossible to work with AoOs, Haste and similar attack granting conditions?

True enough. This was originally far more powerful, but when I revised it, I think I went to far to the other end of the scale. I'll see what I can do about making it more useful. Mind, the reason it doesn't count as sneak attack is so that Dread Fangs can qualify for Aim For The Heart (a new feat that Everynone should be adding here sometime soon).



Well, this seems okay. Although scalling x with x seems a little... strange. 2-4-9-16-etc?

My goal with the scaling was to make it so that the actual save and the treating of the wound would have the same level of difficulty. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by 'strange scaling'.



Oooh...kay? I'd rather just have it treated as a confirmed critical. Hardness issues.

The goal here was to make it more similar to the Rend creature feature. An automatic crit, though...that's promising and more unique.



A fighter-bonus feat. Okay. What happens if you have it already?

This I didn't consider. I figured that the point at which a normal fighter could qualify for GTWF would be the same level as the 'Fang got it for free, but taking the PrC late could cause issue with this. A clause wherein you can simply take a Fighter Bonus Feat if you already have this feat, perhaps?



It's okay. Does it stack with itself?



Improved Bleeding Cut (Ex): Whenever an 8th level dread fang successfully hits an opponent in melee with her favored weapon, the opponent must make a fortitude save with a DC equal to 10 + the dread fang's level + her Dex modifier or take 4 points of temporary Constitution damage. This still applies the Bleeding property for class abilities that utilize it, and does not stack with itself. The Con damage can only be removed with a successful Heal check equal to the fortitude save DC. This ability improves upon (does not stack with) Bleeding Cut.



Okay. You might want to clarify the description, though.

I'll make a clarification when I'm revising on that front. What would make it easier to read/understand?



So. Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. And a strength bonus. Is that all? Also, if this requires 18 dexterity, the strength bonus to damage is going to be miniscule either way. Without min-maxing wildly, of course.

True enough, though to the best of my knowledge, Perfect TWF is an epic feat. Would allowing DEX to damage instead of STR when using the Favored Weapon be too powerful, or just suit the flavor, do you figure?



To sum up - this class does not much more than, say, a Fighter/Rogue can achieve. Except it requires less dexterity to do so.
Most of its abilities can be emulated by a rogue dipping 1-2 levels in fighter and then PrCing out for some full-BAB class.
It needs some more fleshed out abilities that aren't just numerical bonuses and, well, arent just fighter bonus feats.
Also - Fluff. Dread Fang? Where is the Dread? When does it show the fang? Answer this with abilities or with their descriptions. Now I see a.. Tempest/Dervish.

The fluff behind 'Dread Fang' is that the class name is a title for a specific kind of warrior. It's like calling a marine a 'jarhead'. The phrase is instantly evocative of the specific character involved. In this case, someone who dual-wields small weapons with more efficacy (hopefully) than most people. Fluff wasn't as important as mechanics during the creative procedure, but I'll brainstorm.

Thanks for the feedback, by the by. It's definitely given us new layers to consider.

Network
2013-07-21, 08:03 PM
Feats: Combat Finesse, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: one-handed small or smaller slashing melee weapon
What is Combat Finesse? There is no such feat in 3.5 or Pathfinder ; you probably meant Weapon Finesse.


Mm, true. Would simply stating that Dexterity needs to be higher than Strength be more suitable?
I don't think so. A character with a high strength score can still be very stealthy. If you have to add an ability score requirement, do it indirectly through feats.

Overneath
2013-07-21, 10:34 PM
What is Combat Finesse? There is no such feat in 3.5 or Pathfinder ; you probably meant Weapon Finesse.

It wasn't a typo. Combat Finesse is a new feat that essentially acts as the reverse of Power Attack for those with higher Dexterity - it should be included in the original post, along with its feat tree, soon.

Xerlith
2013-07-22, 02:55 AM
Well, what I noticed being a little strange about the bleed scalling is that it starts off rather weak for the level you gain it at and then suddenly skyrockets because you multiply your class level by class level. So it goes exponentially, while HP don't.
Then again, I was never a fan of bleed mechanic and didn't crunch any exact numbers.

Yes, PTWF is an epic feat. But, just so you know, epic feats are so ridiculously imbalanced that it's not really a balancing point. I could give it to my 2wf players and it wouldn't really break the game.
But here? Here it's a class feature! Capstone, to boot. Make it something wildly different from already existing feats. As it is now, if someone took this class, they'd be dropping at around 7th to 9th level.

Let me elaborate about a general problem that should be considered.
TWF is weak

While your party barbarian is Pouncing your enemy for hundreds of damage with his Power Attack, your gish doing bad, bad things with his Power Attack, Arcane Strike and Wraithstrike, you're sitting there and swinging your two twigs for miniscule damage, because:
your Strength to damage is small - You had to qualify for TWF feats.
Power Attack is not for you - because you know, all this two-handed multiplying. And that's why...
DR kills you - it's applied for every hit. You hit more, but for much, much less.
You do not have a reliable damage steroid except maybe your flanking buddy and a Sneak Attack. And then, suddenly undead happen.

Does this class help with any of those problems?
It gives free TWF feats, all right. But they are still weak and they are something a Fighter could very well take without multiclassing. A main class feature shouldn't be fixing a bad system design.

It gives a damage steroid useable exactly _one_ time in an encounter. And even then it's only if you win the Initiative.

Make it work like a Sneak Attack, so at least you can Feint to gain it. Add a feint mechanic to the class. It screams for something like that, with its flashy, deceitful flavor. Give it consistency.

Uh. That came out much more harsh than I intended. Well.

Overneath
2013-07-22, 12:45 PM
Well, what I noticed being a little strange about the bleed scalling is that it starts off rather weak for the level you gain it at and then suddenly skyrockets because you multiply your class level by class level. So it goes exponentially, while HP don't.
Then again, I was never a fan of bleed mechanic and didn't crunch any exact numbers.

Yes, PTWF is an epic feat. But, just so you know, epic feats are so ridiculously imbalanced that it's not really a balancing point. I could give it to my 2wf players and it wouldn't really break the game.
But here? Here it's a class feature! Capstone, to boot. Make it something wildly different from already existing feats. As it is now, if someone took this class, they'd be dropping at around 7th to 9th level.

Let me elaborate about a general problem that should be considered.
TWF is weak

While your party barbarian is Pouncing your enemy for hundreds of damage with his Power Attack, your gish doing bad, bad things with his Power Attack, Arcane Strike and Wraithstrike, you're sitting there and swinging your two twigs for miniscule damage, because:
your Strength to damage is small - You had to qualify for TWF feats.
Power Attack is not for you - because you know, all this two-handed multiplying. And that's why...
DR kills you - it's applied for every hit. You hit more, but for much, much less.
You do not have a reliable damage steroid except maybe your flanking buddy and a Sneak Attack. And then, suddenly undead happen.

Does this class help with any of those problems?
It gives free TWF feats, all right. But they are still weak and they are something a Fighter could very well take without multiclassing. A main class feature shouldn't be fixing a bad system design.

It gives a damage steroid useable exactly _one_ time in an encounter. And even then it's only if you win the Initiative.

Make it work like a Sneak Attack, so at least you can Feint to gain it. Add a feint mechanic to the class. It screams for something like that, with its flashy, deceitful flavor. Give it consistency.

Uh. That came out much more harsh than I intended. Well.

More harsh than you intended, perhaps, but harsh enough to allow for alternate considerations. I feel I should explain that the reason this PrC is so comparatively weak is because the original version was literally stronger by an order of magnitude, and I wanted to avoid overpowering it too much. Then again, I mentioned that already, didn't I, heh. We'll see what we can do to tweak the balance and give it some more flavor. Thanks again for your feedback.