Druid conundrum.

[Tegu8788]

So, I find myself wanting to revive a druid that I played earlier. Wild shape was very fun, I loved the versatility of going back and forth between casting and clawing.


The problem is, that I also love hybrids. Dearly.


Some of you may see the problem coming here.



I want to make a hybrid druid, that is not completely anemic. I've no idea what the other side would be yet, and the character concept is very flexible. An alcoholic Druid, whose wisdom is all drunken mumblings and knowledge of nature is mostly what can be brewed, can mesh with most anything in.

Stat wise, a Battlemind, Invoker, Avenger, Monk, Ranger, or Rogue could work well, but as I'm not as familiar with those classes, and how any of them can work with Wild Shape. It's been quite a while since I've really looked at the Druid, and I'm curious if anyone has any tips.

I normally take mechanics and create a character from there, but I'm going backwards this time, and I'd like some help.

[VeliciaL]

I can't offer much help here, except to say that you'll probably want your hybrid to boost the caster side of things, since absolutely none of your other class' melee powers will work while wild shaped.

[Epinephrine]

As VeliciaL says, you can't use your other class powers in beast form, and can't use beast form powers in the other form. I love Battleminds, but I think that it's a poor fit, since you'd only have defending abilities while in non-beast form.

The strikers would only get striker bonuses on attacks from that class, so these wouldn't mesh well either, unless it's an attempt to use ranged striking, and melee control. That leaves your suggested Invoker. An Invoker can certainly offer a lot of fun, with area/multi-target dazes, etc. Of all the suggestions, I would think that the Invoker would blend best; it would play similarly to a normal druid, with casting/beast form, but the powers have a different source, and Invokers have strong powers.

[Dimers]

If you like the casting+clawing, you'll almost certainly prefer Invoker out of that list. The fact that they don't use weapon powers is also a good reason -- otherwise, you have to either deal with switching weapons or finding a good weapliment to apply to both druid and weapon-user powers. That's quite likely to end up unsatisfactory.

Cleric or a Constitution-based Warlock would be fine, too, and would get you more hit points than Invoker. Warlock seems a little more ranged-oriented (I feel like more Cleric powers are blasts), but you can probably make either one work acceptably in close range.

Seeker and Shaman both use the right stats too. Seeker has awfully weak attacks. Shaman gives you more hassle dealing with companion stuff, without being able to use so much as the spirit's OA while you're transformed. So regardless of stats, those are two to avoid.

How about a Str+Wis Warden? They're relatively cast-y for a melee class, you can get better defense from a warden Hybrid Talent, and they offer the most HP available. Just watch out for warden dailies, a lot of which are polymorphs. As soon as you use beast form, any other polymorphs you have running just end.

And finally ... shielding Swordmage. Pump Int and Wis, which leaves your AC acceptable in light armor. Have Con tertiary to support both classes' boosts. Since the shielding aegis doesn't require you to use a power to lessen damage taken by allies, you can do that while in beastform.

[Arkhosia]

If you like the casting+clawing, you'll almost certainly prefer Invoker out of that list. The fact that they don't use weapon powers is also a good reason -- otherwise, you have to either deal with switching weapons or finding a good weapliment to apply to both druid and weapon-user powers. That's quite likely to end up unsatisfactory.

Cleric or a Constitution-based Warlock would be fine, too, and would get you more hit points than Invoker. Warlock seems a little more ranged-oriented (I feel like more Cleric powers are blasts), but you can probably make either one work acceptably in close range.

Seeker and Shaman both use the right stats too. Seeker has awfully weak attacks. Shaman gives you more hassle dealing with companion stuff, without being able to use so much as the spirit's OA while you're transformed. So regardless of stats, those are two to avoid.

How about a Str+Wis Warden? They're relatively cast-y for a melee class, you can get better defense from a warden Hybrid Talent, and they offer the most HP available. Just watch out for warden dailies, a lot of which are polymorphs. As soon as you use beast form, any other polymorphs you have running just end.

And finally ... shielding Swordmage. Pump Int and Wis, which leaves your AC acceptable in light armor. Have Con tertiary to support both classes' boosts. Since the shielding aegis doesn't require you to use a power to lessen damage taken by allies, you can do that while in beastform.

I second the warlock, but that's probably due to my love of warlocks, and that "Hmm, a ______ who _____... That will be interesting." Is how my brain processes hybrids.:smallredface:

[Tegu8788]

Shielding Swordmage is not one I would have seen coming, I'll have to dabble with that.

The Invoker does seem to be an obvious choice, replacing primal elemental controlling powers with divine elemental controlling powers. I recall a feat that lets you shift whenever an OA is provoked, could be a nice way around low Str MBA issues and still cast all I want. Staff Expertise makes sense there, though a Rod and Totem could also be useful for properties.

And Cleric's are always good as hybrids, Battle Cleric's Lore is just glorious. Though if I wanted a primal healer that used Healing Word, I'd play a Sentinel, though honestly a Cleric|Druid may be a better chassis than a Sentinel is, both as a Leader and a Controller.


But the Warlock, that does sound interesting. Infernal Druid, that drinks to forget the deals he's made, with devils, or primordials. AC wouldn't be much without using that Hybrid Talent on Con to AC. Still, a very interesting idea.

[allonym]

Shame you seem to be interested in wildshaping, since the best way to hybrid a druid is usually to concentrate on implement powers. Sentinel|Cleric works pretty well for this purpose, since you will have more uses of Healing Word, though other implement combinations work fine.

Otherwise, you could create a pretty effective close-in controller with a druid|invoker, if you solve the AC problem - wildshape for druid melee control, then pop back out for the large number of useful invoker close burst/blast powers. The main problem would be self-dazing invoker powers, since that could really mess with your ability to wildshape, so power selection would be important. If you went wrathvoker, you'd have a pretty high damage output for a controller.

[Tegu8788]

Wildshape, I know, it's tricky, but no one can deny how much fun it is. I was hoping there might be a feat out there someone that let's you add the beast form keywords.

[Lord Haart]

I might be wrong, but i have a strong assumption that Defender Aura, once activated, would remain in effect even if wildshaped. Could it work if you made wildshaped druid, who's already unforgiveably good and durable in melee for a controller, into a full-time pseudo-defender (making him sturdier while you're on it)?

[Epinephrine]

I might be wrong, but i have a strong assumption that Defender Aura, once activated, would remain in effect even if wildshaped. Could it work if you made wildshaped druid, who's already unforgiveably good and durable in melee for a controller, into a full-time pseudo-defender (making him sturdier while you're on it)?

Interesting point - which essentials defenders have hybrid rules? I know the cavalier does, and you'd have an MBA in druid form to use. I don't think you could activate the punishment portion of the cavalier's defender schtick, since it's a power you activate and lacks the beast form keyword. Do any other essential defenders have hybrids and would the punishment work with beast form (e.g., a class power that states that you can make an MBA if an enemy in your aura makes an attack that doesn't include you)?

[Dimers]

Wildshape, I know, it's tricky, but no one can deny how much fun it is. I was hoping there might be a feat out there someone that let's you add the beast form keywords.

The only one I'm aware of is for half-elves. They can take a feat to make their Dilettante attack "beast form".

I realized as a result of answering this thread that I don't like 4e druids because of the fluff of wildshaping. The mechanics of hybrid+wildshape can also be annoying, but it's the "I reshape myself every few seconds" bullhockey that was getting to me. Now that I noticed my problem, I'm refluffing, re-envisioning. Wildshape is similar to an at-will stance, except there are certain powers you can only use in that stance and certain powers you CAN'T use while you're in it. There's no reason I have to imagine the character changing shape.

[allonym]

I might be wrong, but i have a strong assumption that Defender Aura, once activated, would remain in effect even if wildshaped. Could it work if you made wildshaped druid, who's already unforgiveably good and durable in melee for a controller, into a full-time pseudo-defender (making him sturdier while you're on it)?

Nice idea, but only Cavaliers have a hybrid (you can also pick up their defender aura with multiclass, which is pretty much the only use of the subclass), and their aura punishment isn't an MBA, is an attack power without the Beast keyword, and, on top of all of that, is really bad.

[Lord Haart]

So, i tried to tinker with a beast form druid hybrid focused on MBA milking. It's not what was asked for, since it ignores the "versatility between pew-pew-mode and hack-slash-mode" aspect of the druid in favor of pure hack-slash-with-riders (although it would be easy to bring back some non-beast form powers), it would probably work better as a primal guardian rather than a primal swarm (i just like the latter), it is a feeble jack-of-all-roles (not that i believe in the roles much) and i suck at picking powers, but still, the idea's here and someone more competent than me might improve upon it. But first, the important tibbit:

Note: The November '10 errata made the wording of Wild Shape less restrictive; now the only powers that you can't use in beast form are weapon or implement powers lacking the beast form keyword. Have fun with your utility powers now!I'm too lazy to check if it's still true, but it makes the gap between the idea and the realisation so less wide (although i've near-completed the first version of the build before learning of that and going back to redo power selection).

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Godzilla returns, level 9
Dwarf, Druid/Bard
Hybrid Druid Option: Hybrid Druid Will
Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Primal Aspect
Primal Aspect Option: Primal Swarm
Inherent Bonuses
Akanûl (Akanûl Benefit)
Theme: Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 18, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 20, CHA 13

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 14, DEX 12, INT 8, WIS 16, CHA 13


AC: 20 Fort: 21 Ref: 19 Will: 23
HP: 70 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 17

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +9, Dungeoneering +16, Endurance +14, Insight +16, Perception +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +4, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Heal +10, History +4, Intimidate +6, Nature +10, Religion +4, Stealth +5, Streetwise +6, Thievery +5

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Dwarf Racial Power: Dwarven Resilience
Druid Feature: Wild Shape
Bard Utility: Skald's Aura
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Paladin Attack: Righteous Radiance
Bard Attack 1: Song of Serendipity
Druid Attack 1: Grasping Claws
Druid Attack 1: Scattered Form
Bard Attack 1: Dirge of the Damned
Bard Utility 2: Moment of Escape
Bard Attack 3: Echoing Weapon (note: it doesn't do a jack for you, so cast it on any of your weapon-using buddies)
Druid Attack 5: Clinging Drones
Druid Utility 6: Swarm Dispersal
Bard Attack 7: Prescient Warning
Druid Attack 9: Primal Wolf

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Skald Training
Level 4: Squire of Righteousness
Level 6: Ruthless Killer
Level 8: Improved Defenses

ITEMS
Hide Armor x1
Wand Implement x1
====== End ======

AC sure makes me cry, but that's what Swarm Druid gets in exchange for some DR-that-stacks-with-everything and really cool riders. I hope it's clear from all the leader-ish effects on the pseudoscald side (and from the lack of true passive durability) that this build is not to be the only melee character in the party. It also doesn't go to town until at least the fourth level. I didn't bother with the equipment because other business, so i used inherent bonuses.

And i never talked a defender (i. e. someone who has a punishment mechanics), only a competent pseudo-defender. Although in theory it is possible to get mark punishment via Divine Sanction multiclass powers, they require Charisma, which seems like a dead direction to me.

[Tegu8788]

I'm actually running a fake Skald|Executioner right now that's decent at both jobs. In my spoiler I have a list of what hybrids are available, in a chart that matches up good ones. I had not considered lazy style classes though, and now Warlord springs to mind.

Edit: Ok, yes, I think the Warlord would work out pretty well. How awesome would it be to have a bear giving out orders? No casting really, but full time wild shape hybrid.


==================
Hrodebert, level 5
Half-Elf, Druid/Warlord
Hybrid Druid Option: Hybrid Druid Reflex
Hybrid Talent Option: Primal Aspect
Primal Aspect Option: Primal Guardian
Warlord Leadership Option: Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord Option: Hybrid Warlord Fortitude
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Knack for Success
Moonstruck Hunter (+2 to Perception)
Theme: Knight Hospitaler

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 17, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 21, CHA 8

STARTING SCORES
STR 10, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 10, WIS 18, CHA 8


AC: 17 Fort: 15 Ref: 12 Will: 16
HP: 33, Surges:10 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +8, Nature +11, Perception +13

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +0, Arcana +1, Athletics +0, Bluff +0, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +1, Insight +8, Intimidate +0, Religion +1, Stealth +0, Streetwise +0, Thievery +0

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Knight Hospitaler Utility: Shield of Devotion
Half-Elf Racial Power: Knack for Success
Druid Feature: Wild Shape
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Druid Attack 1: Savage Rend
Warlord Attack 1: Direct the Strike
Warlord Attack 1: Provocative Order
Druid Attack 1: Summon Giant Toad
Druid Utility 2: Barkskin
Druid Attack 3: Roar of the Unbowed Beast
Warlord Attack 5: Scent of Victory

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Half-Elf Spirit Speaker
Level 4: Enraged Board Form

ITEMS
Hide Armor x1
Quarterstaff
Adeventurer's Kit
===============

Now I just have to figure out what kind of expertise feat applies to Wild Shape attacks.

[Firebug]

What expertise applies to wild shape attacks? What implement are you using...

In your |Warlords case it seems to be a staff. Staff expertise is great. Reach and no more provoking.

One thing I would like to point out, is that you seem to be using themes. So why didn't you take Wererat, Werewolf or Werebear. At level 10 you effectively can ignore the beast form keyword. So if you are starting above 10, you can hybrid with pretty much anything that matches up stat-wise.

[allonym]

Except he won't be making any ranged implement attacks and Staff Expertise won't stop his lazylord ranged powers from provoking, and his Beast melee powers don't have the weapon keyword, so they don't benefit from increased reach. Staff Expertise does very little for you here.

On the other hand, very few expertise feats will do much for you. Versatile Expertise if you want to exploit spear support for proning, your choice of staff or totem if the vanishingly unlikely event of you making a ranged implement attack should occur.

In terms of power selection, Provocative Order is pretty mediocre, though it gets better if you have a barbarian on side. I'd recommend Vengeance is Mine, since you'll be all up in enemy faces, and compliments Shield of Devotion nicely. Or Powerful Warning, though it shares a trigger with Shield of Devotion. Otherwise, fair enough.

[Tegu8788]

If I start above level 10 I will keep that in mind, but the few games I've found tend to start well enough below that I don't want to wait.

I'll definitely make the power change, I don't normally play martial characters, so I'm unfamiliar with the Warlord's specific powers.

[Sol]

If you're allowed to use themes at your table, grab the werebear (or werewolf, or wererat) theme, to (at level 10) solve your beast form problem with hybrid form, allowing free use of all implement, weapon, and beast form powers in one, fancy form that you can describe however you want.

[Tegu8788]

That would be great, if I'm at level 10., but most of the games I've seen around here tend to start at lower levels, and I'd hate to have a crippled character concept for that long.

[Dimers]

most of the games I've seen around here tend to start at lower levels, and I'd hate to have a crippled character concept for that long.

I hear that! I used to think that recruitment threads would be totally decided by the DM, but I've seen plenty of successful ones start with a player saying "I'd like this kind of game, will someone run one for me?" So I want to go post for a paragon-level game -- I bet there'd be tons of players asking to join. I'd already have done it if I weren't already in two PbPs and two tabletops while working, looking for a better job, helping three people move, having a girlfriend, having a life, etc.

Paragon is where a lot of build concepts finally come together, and even for the more straightforward builds, it's a chance to specialize and really be different.

[Alan_Pehnereas]

Is there synergy between the Werewolf theme's hybrid form (that allows beast and normal powers) and the druid's beast powers? I think they both technically have the beast keyword.

I know it's not RAI, but you might get away with it based on loose RAW. :P

Nevermind - it's been mentioned. On the other hand, you could still go this route and always change powers once you hit level 10.

[ghost_warlock]

Sentinel Druid|Invoker can be an awesome Con/Wis build. Especially if you focus on staves and thunder/lightning damage.

Plays like a controller with some decent damage (especially if you can get Mark of Storms + the associated paragon path) but you also have access to the sentinel's healing stuff and a meatshield animal companion (I like the air elemental zephyr thing from the druid of the wastes version).

Also, Hybrid Talent can get you Con-to-AC so your AC should be through the roof, especially if you take the druid of the wastes to get an AC bonus when wielding a staff.