Best quori forms for wildshaping (a la planar shepherd of Dal Quor)?

[faircoin]

As the title.

[Urpriest]

Incidentally, it's occasionally argued that Dal Quor should contain dream versions of anything that people dream about, and thus will have every other outsider, not just quori. But that's perhaps too high cheese for you.

[chronomatophobe]

Is anything too cheesy for a Planar Shepherd that chose Dal'Quor? They do get to abuse the plane's time trait with planar bubble.

[faircoin]

Incidentally, it's occasionally argued that Dal Quor should contain dream versions of anything that people dream about, and thus will have every other outsider, not just quori. But that's perhaps too high cheese for you.

Is this a fluffy or crunchy argument? Since this is a thought exercise (I don't think even my current group would allow planar shepherds of Dal Quor), I like to stay on the safe side of RAW.

[chronomatophobe]

In terms of RAW, the number of Quori available is actually a pretty limited pool. I think they were only printed in the ECS, Secrets of Sarlona and Magic of Eberron. Pic one within the size category you have available and go from there. I think the biggest Quori is only huge.

[nyarlathotep]

In terms of RAW, the number of Quori available is actually a pretty limited pool. I think they were only printed in the ECS, Secrets of Sarlona and Magic of Eberron. Pic one within the size category you have available and go from there. I think the biggest Quori is only huge.

There were also a few in dragon magazine but I've forgotten what issue.

[faircoin]

Well then, aside from Dal'Quor (time trait) and Fernia (eefriti to free wish), what is the best plane for wildshape? Shavarath?

[Vaz]

There are Quori forms in Dragon 324, IIRC.

Incidentally, the same form as the Skin of Kaletor (with the Mantle of the Beast Raiment thing complete set from Complete Champion and the Wild Shape Amulet, that's 29HD to be playing around with).

[Phelix-Mu]

The um...what was it...kalaraq quori! That's it. I don't know the book, but I remember some really awesome mechanics when I was throwing them at a high level party. I don't know if they are eligible, as I seem to remember something about swarm traits (but they might not actually be a swarm). In any case, I believe they were incorporeal and had touch attacks that drained Wisdom, and a stack of other coolness besides. Does Planar Shepherd net you Psi-Like Abilities (I have pitifully little knowledge about Planar Shepherd, as that PrC is not my flavor and a manner of crazy overkill that I try not to indulge in)? I seem to remember the kalaraq having a bunch of psi-like abilities.

Anyway, they were the bees' knees back when I first discovered them. Pretty high CR, though, so I don't know if you can fit them in your HD cap (but see the previous post about exceeding wildshape HD cap).

EDIT: Seems it was in Dragon 324 originally, but then added to Secrets of Sarlona (yay, value added!:smallannoyed:).

[Big Fau]

Well then, aside from Dal'Quor (time trait) and Fernia (eefriti to free wish), what is the best plane for wildshape? Shavarath?

Xoriat. No, seriously, there's like 50 Aberrations and Outsiders that you can use from that plane. And time is all kinds of crazy there.

[Aliek]

Xoriat. No, seriously, there's like 50 Aberrations and Outsiders that you can use from that plane. And time is all kinds of crazy there.

Didn't time flow backwards in Xoriat?

[Big Fau]

Didn't time flow backwards in Xoriat?

Yeah. That's the point. If something goes wrong, you reset time with your Planar Bubble and do it over.


@OP: If you stick with Dal Quor, do keep in mind that it is mandatory for you to yell "Za Warudo!" whenever you activate the Planar Bubble.

[Mithril Leaf]

There are Quori forms in Dragon 324, IIRC.

Incidentally, the same form as the Skin of Kaletor (with the Mantle of the Beast Raiment thing complete set from Complete Champion and the Wild Shape Amulet, that's 29HD to be playing around with).

IIRC it's only 25 since one of those items is not like the other and only boosts your wildshape to a max of 20. Still gets you to the cap pretty much as soon as you finish Planar Shepherd though, which is awful nice. I believe it is the Wild Shape Amulet.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Well then, aside from Dal'Quor (time trait) and Fernia (eefriti to free wish), what is the best plane for wildshape? Shavarath?

Lammania, probably. Free Extend for every spell you cast in the bubble and a ginormous list of creatures, including the genies.


Didn't time flow backwards in Xoriat?

Nope, it's just 60 times slower than on Eberron. Every hour on the Prime is a minute on Xoriat.

That's... kind of useful in some circumstances, but overall, not that great.


Yeah. That's the point. If something goes wrong, you reset time with your Planar Bubble and do it over.

Even if Xoriat worked that way, that still wouldn't work.

[ksbsnowowl]

Nope, it's just 60 times slower than on Eberron. Every minute on the Prime is an hour on Xoriat.

That's... kind of useful in some circumstances, but overall, not that great.
Every minute on Eberron = one hour on Xoriate means time is FASTER on Xoriat.

But that's perfectly abusable with planar bubble, isn't it? Activate the bubble, and you get to act for an hour (600 rounds) while your foes get to act for ten rounds. Put another way, you get 60 rounds for their one.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Every minute on Eberron = one hour on Xoriate means time is FASTER on Xoriat.

I actually had that backwards, so thanks for pointing it out.


But that's perfectly abusable with planar bubble, isn't it? Activate the bubble, and you get to act for an hour (600 rounds) while your foes get to act for ten rounds. Put another way, you get 60 rounds for their one.

Nah, Dal Quor is the best you can do on that count, at a 10 rounds for one rate.

[ksbsnowowl]

Gotcha, so activate planar bubble, and an hour passes around you, while you only experience a minute.

Could be handy in surviving drowning or suffocation, waiting for others to come save you. Could also be handy if you can involuntarily affect others inside your bubble. Could allow the rest of the party to attack a trapped foe from range.

This type of situation saved the day in Brandon Sanderson's Alloy of Law.

[Vaz]

Um, no, it means you get to make 10 full actions for every one of your opponents.

[Verditude]

If the conversion rate is 1 minute on the material = 1 hour on Xoriat, then you should get 60 rounds while your opponent gets 1. In the same amount of time, 10 rounds have passed for your opponent and 600 have for you. Seems pretty simple to me.

[ksbsnowowl]

Um, no, it means you get to make 10 full actions for every one of your opponents.

I was talking Xoriat, not Dal Quor.

[Phelix-Mu]

Planes with varying time traits should be, in my opinion, be reduced to a plot device. Time is the Mother of All Beatsticks(TM) to swing at your opponent. Giving this beatstick to player characters (and druids, at that), is generally unwise at best, and potentially catastrophic.

Were the pcs generally hacking the game at a 1:1 time ratio with opponents, surviving, with the occasional difficulties? Well expect all math to break down once the time ratio is increased in the favor of players. Action economy is king, and time manipulation is action economy manipulation.

This is one reason why I, the epitome of druid fandom, have yet to involve Planar Shepherd in my campaign world. Well, that and outsider wild shape is kind of gratuitous.

Anyway, /rant.

[TuggyNE]

This is one reason why I, the epitome of druid fandom, have yet to involve Planar Shepherd in my campaign world.

You and eggynack (anyone else?) need to have a druid fan-off!

[jaydubs]

Is this a fluffy or crunchy argument? Since this is a thought exercise (I don't think even my current group would allow planar shepherds of Dal Quor), I like to stay on the safe side of RAW.

Judge for yourself. The argument would probably go something like this...

Dragons 324 contains a blurb about Eidolons in Dal Quor. It was probably meant as a way for DMs to design more interesting dream adventures, since Dal Quor Eidolons (different from other types of Eidolons) are described being able to appear in the form of any creature, and actually having those creature's standard stats. It goes on to note there are "nightmare" and "idyllic" Eidolons, which have lower or higher stats than standard creatures.

A DM might find these guys pretty handy in creating dream-like adventures. Nightmarish rabbit swarms, happy dreams about handily beating powerful demons, etc.

In the hands of a Planar Shepherd, the conceivable possibilities are rather crazy. Not only can you wild shape into an Eidolon Efreeti, but arguably into Nightmare and Idyllic versions of creatures. Idyllic Solars to get Solar powers with lower HD requirements, for example.

The argument for a DM letting this type of thing fly? A Dal Quor Shepherd is already too powerful. If you are allowing that build at all, you probably already have some controls in place. The campaign is designed for crazy powerful characters; the player is someone the DM trusts to use their powers for awesome or funny, rather than obsoleting the rest of the party; or the DM keeps them on a tight leash.

Non-overpowered player uses might be something like:
-Wild shape into an Idyllic version of a Tarrasque with only 3HD and terrible stats. Use it to scare away enemies and avoid a battle.

Interesting and limiting DM interpretations might be something like:
-Yes, you can choose any Eidolon form you want, but the DM is going to add Nightmare or Idyllic to whatever you become to make it appropriate for the situation. Or;
-You can only pick Eidolon forms from recent dreams of yourself or your allies. So the DM gives you a short list of extra forms every few days.

[Phelix-Mu]

Interesting and limiting DM interpretations might be something like:
-Yes, you can choose any Eidolon form you want, but the DM is going to add Nightmare or Idyllic to whatever you become to make it appropriate for the situation. Or;
-You can only pick Eidolon forms from recent dreams of yourself or your allies. So the DM gives you a short list of extra forms every few days.

Not a normal fan of the power-level of the typical Dal Quor Planar Shepherd, but this last idea has a lot of flavor for a dream-themed campaign. Might have to borrow this concept, and maybe apply it more broadly. Like all transmutations and illusions manifest in ways that are reminiscent of recent dreams (kind of like a free Spell Thematics for everyone, no big mechanical effect, but loads of cool).

Thanks for the idea.:smallsmile:

[Mithril Leaf]

-You can only pick Eidolon forms from recent dreams of yourself or your allies. So the DM gives you a short list of extra forms every few days.

And then you bust out that psychic reformation tattoo you bought a few levels ago and max out your ranks in Lucid Dreaming. :smallwink:

[jaydubs]

And then you bust out that psychic reformation tattoo you bought a few levels ago and max out your ranks in Lucid Dreaming. :smallwink:

:smalleek:

Okay, okay. So also in 324, there's a bit before the Eidolon stuff about how Dal Quor has both illusions and actual dangerous creatures. Players can roll Will checks to disbelieve the illusions, but not the actual creatures.

DM could rule that the Lucid Dreaming creates only illusions, which don't give the Planar Shepherd Eidolon forms.

But besides shaping dreams, Lucid Dreaming also gives the player the option of moving through different dreamscapes. So give the player the option to try to "look for" specific Eidolon types while dreaming by rolling their Lucid Dreaming skill against how rare/powerful a creature happens to be.

Now you've headed off the sure-fire path to power while still giving a real and interesting advantage for investing skill points. And if they do manage to get something extraordinary with a lucky roll, it only lasts for a few days. The memories fade just as memories of regular dreams. :smallsmile: