Building races for 4e: Help?

[Arkhosia]

Here's what I have so far for a Devilfae:
Devilfae
Dark daughters and sons of elves and demons.

Racial Traits

Average weight: 120-145 Lbs.
Average Height: 5'7"- 6'4"

Ability scores: +2 Charisma Or Dexterity, +2 Constitution.

Size: medium

Speed: 7 squares

Language: Common, Elven

Skill Bonuses: +2 Bluff, +2 Perception

Vision: low light

Dark Kin
Select a devil of the following for a parent:

Succubus: you gain +2 to streetwise, and the Seducer's Origin power.

Pit fiend: you gain +2 to athletics, and you gain the Hell-Lord's Origin power.

Assassin Devil: you gain +2 to stealth, and gain the Assassin's Origin power.

Dual origin:
You are fey and immortal in origin.

Seducer's Origin
Encounter Power
Your attractive appearance puts off your attackers.
Immediate interrupt
Trigger: An opponent attacks you.
Until the end of your next turn, any opponent who attacks you takes a -2 penalty to attack you.
At level 11, this power also effects your allies.
At level 21, the opponent takes -6 attack instead.

Hell-Lord's Origin
Encounter Power
Few people are immune to the influence of devils and demons. You are no different.
Minor action, Fear

Close Burst 5, each enemy in burst
Highest ability vs Will
Hit: The target may not take immediate or opportunity actions against you or your allies until the end of your next turn.
At level 11, +3 to hit
At level 21, +6 to hit.

Assassin's Origin
Encounter Power
With a snap of your fingers, you disappear.
No action
Trigger: an encounter begins and are not surprised. If you are, it is activated after surprise round.
You gain invisibility until the end of your next turn.
At level 11, you have a +2 attack bonus to any attacks made while invisible
At level 21, you can use this power again after doing a critical hit.

Racial Feats:
Heroic feats
Dazing Gaze
Requires Devilfae, succubus origin
When you use your succubus origin power, select an opponent. You make a charisma vs. will attack. If you succeed, the target is dominated.

Wrath of the Devil
Requires Devilfae, Pit Fiend origin
When you use your Hell-lord's origin power, anyone in the burst takes 1d4 + con. Modifier fire damage

Dark Soul
Requires Devilfae, Assassin's origin
When you use your assassin's origin power, you do +5 damage to fire, fear, and necrotic powers

Half-races:
Feyling (Halfling/Gnome)

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence/Charisma
Size: Small
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Choice of one other.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Arcana, +2 Stealth
Elusive: You gain a +5 racial bonus against grapple checks.
Blind Luck: when you fail a attack roll or skill check, roll a d10. If it lands on a 10, you instead succeed.
Fearless Leap once per encounter, you can use the Fearless Leap power.
Fearless Leap
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: You are attacked by a creature that is Large or bigger.
Roll a d8. If it lands on 8, the attack misses, and you make a melee basic attack.
Blood of Kin You can take feats listed for either halflings or gnomes.



Contributors! Thanks!

1.Tegu8788
2.Ashdate
3.Kurald Galain
4. Incandescent
5. Dariathlon
6.Tcrudsi
7. Mandoknight


Are there any issues with this?

[Tegu8788]

Oh, so many issues.

Speed: 7. This, while not without exception, is high.

The options to boost 4 stats is also out of line. 4E, barring humans and monster races without a full write up, have one permanent boost stat and a swing between two stats.

Dark Kin, while fluff wise nice, is pretty overpowered. +2 to more stats is too much. Perhaps if there was one permanent stat and the swing was chosen by parentage, that would be cool, like the shifters, but as it stands you can +4 Cha, or give +2 to three stats. Overpowered.

Succubus: That's a pretty strong defense buff, however, with the exception of 2 races, there are no gender differences in 4E. And those 2 races are argued about because of it. Overpowered.

Pit Fiend: Extra Skill from a specific class is a bit odd, but nothing unseemly here.

Assassin: Concealment for 2 rounds, while redundant to most builds that would want it, is mostly useless to the rest. What kind of action does it take? Does it last for two rounds or until broken, or two full rounds? Any conditions that need to be meet for it to take place?

Dual Origin: Several races count for multiple races, no problem. But the half thing doesn't really work out that well. And as for Teiflings being thrown in there, that doesn't really help either, as most of their good feats are based around their racial power. Picking a Fey racial power is also fine, if boring. Being able to count as that race as well does make it look like it's going to be exploited for all kinds of tricks.




The big question is, why do you want this race to exist? What hole does it fill? Can no existing race be refluffed to fit that purpose?

[Arkhosia]

Oh, so many issues.

Speed: 7. This, while not without exception, is high.

The options to boost 4 stats is also out of line. 4E, barring humans and monster races without a full write up, have one permanent boost stat and a swing between two stats.

Dark Kin, while fluff wise nice, is pretty overpowered. +2 to more stats is too much. Perhaps if there was one permanent stat and the swing was chosen by parentage, that would be cool, like the shifters, but as it stands you can +4 Cha, or give +2 to three stats. Overpowered.

Succubus: That's a pretty strong defense buff, however, with the exception of 2 races, there are no gender differences in 4E. And those 2 races are argued about because of it. Overpowered.

Pit Fiend: Extra Skill from a specific class is a bit odd, but nothing unseemly here.

Assassin: Concealment for 2 rounds, while redundant to most builds that would want it, is mostly useless to the rest. What kind of action does it take? Does it last for two rounds or until broken, or two full rounds? Any conditions that need to be meet for it to take place?

Dual Origin: Several races count for multiple races, no problem. But the half thing doesn't really work out that well. And as for Teiflings being thrown in there, that doesn't really help either, as most of their good feats are based around their racial power. Picking a Fey racial power is also fine, if boring. Being able to count as that race as well does make it look like it's going to be exploited for all kinds of tricks.




The big question is, why do you want this race to exist? What hole does it fill? Can no existing race be refluffed to fit that purpose?

1. It is an option for both stats: charisma or dexterity +intelligence or wisdom.

2.it is +2 to a selected skill of that type, permanently locked there.

3. Will remove succubus buff. Does +1 will work?

5. Lasts from beginning of 1st turn to beginning of last. How is that?

Will remove racial perquisites: only meets elf perquisites?

[Tegu8788]

1. I see how its written, and I'm saying that's not how most 4E races work. One stat is a given boost for the race, and you have one choice between two stats for the other boost. This race is only slightly less varied than a human is, how only gets a single +2.

2. When you say Charimsa based stat, do you mean a skill (Bluff, Diplomacy, etc)? Because that's a very different thing.

3. If it was an encounter power, immediate interrupt, I think that kinda thing would be fine. But permanent, that's too strong. +1 to Will is perfectly fine though.

5. Again, more mechanical terms are useful. What activates the power? Rolling initative, your first turn, is it a specific power? Until beginning of next turn is only 1 round, as is end of next turn. Both of those are common, but 2 rounds, that's a long time.

The races that showed up in the first PHB have gotten lots of feat support, so getting two of them is pretty strong. Just elf, with its racial power, is still very strong, but more in line with things.

[Arkhosia]

1. I see how its written, and I'm saying that's not how most 4E races work. One stat is a given boost for the race, and you have one choice between two stats for the other boost. This race is only slightly less varied than a human is, how only gets a single +2.

2. When you say Charimsa based stat, do you mean a skill (Bluff, Diplomacy, etc)? Because that's a very different thing.

3. If it was an encounter power, immediate interrupt, I think that kinda thing would be fine. But permanent, that's too strong. +1 to Will is perfectly fine though.

5. Again, more mechanical terms are useful. What activates the power? Rolling initative, your first turn, is it a specific power? Until beginning of next turn is only 1 round, as is end of next turn. Both of those are common, but 2 rounds, that's a long time.

The races that showed up in the first PHB have gotten lots of feat support, so getting two of them is pretty strong. Just elf, with its racial power, is still very strong, but more in line with things.

1. I will remove the optional wisdom boost.
2. I meant one skill that got it's modifier bonus from charisma.
5. Will make it from first turn to end of next turn then.

Really appreciate the help. As demonstrated before, I have a hard time making homebrews. :smallredface:

[Tegu8788]

I understand seeing a new system, and wanting to jump in and fix things. But 4E was built around balance more than most games, and unless you understand that balance, you can really screw yourself up pretty easily.

Most races only get bonuses to two specific skills, but several have more options, so if you're boosting skills, that's fine. It's certainly a wide choice for certain skills and minimal for others, but balanced.

And again, I'm going to say, you need to write out more for the concealment power. You have the concept, now write the power card for it.

[Arkhosia]

I understand seeing a new system, and wanting to jump in and fix things. But 4E was built around balance more than most games, and unless you understand that balance, you can really screw yourself up pretty easily.

Most races only get bonuses to two specific skills, but several have more options, so if you're boosting skills, that's fine. It's certainly a wide choice for certain skills and minimal for others, but balanced.

And again, I'm going to say, you need to write out more for the concealment power. You have the concept, now write the power card for it.

Okay.
How about this:
Assassin's Origin
Encounter Power
With a snap of your fingers, you disappear.
Immediate action
When the 1st turn of the encounter begins, you gain partial concealment until the person or creature who had the 1st turn begins his 3rd.
This does not activate during a surprise round.

The reason i decided to try homebrewing again was because a friend of mine had asked me to try to make him a homebrew, and I wanted to try and get some practice before doing so.

[Ashdate]

Okay.
How about this:
Assassin's Origin
Encounter Power
With a snap of your fingers, you disappear.
Immediate action
When the 1st turn of the encounter begins, you gain partial concealment until the person or creature who had the 1st turn begins his 3rd.
This does not activate during a surprise round.

The reason i decided to try homebrewing again was because a friend of mine had asked me to try to make him a homebrew, and I wanted to try and get some practice before doing so.

That's super awkwardly written, and will likely have memory issues. How about something like this:

Assassin's Origin
Encounter Power
With a snap of your fingers, you disappear.
No action
Trigger: you roll initiative and are not surprised
You gain partial concealment until the end of your next turn.
Sustain minor: The concealment persists until the end of your next turn. You may only sustain this power once.

Honestly, following the example of Wilden and Gensai would probably be best. If you're going to have multiple options for being a "Dark Kin", then create an encounter power for all of them to give a sense of unity within the race.

I'd also dump the elven heritage stuff; let these guys stand on their feet as a unique race; the world does not need another elven subtype.

[Arkhosia]

That's super awkwardly written, and will likely have memory issues. How about something like this:

Assassin's Origin
Encounter Power
With a snap of your fingers, you disappear.
No action
Trigger: you roll initiative and are not surprised
You gain partial concealment until the end of your next turn.
Sustain minor: The concealment persists until the end of your next turn. You may only sustain this power once.

Honestly, following the example of Wilden and Gensai would probably be best. If you're going to have multiple options for being a "Dark Kin", then create an encounter power for all of them to give a sense of unity within the race.

I'd also dump the elven heritage stuff; let these guys stand on their feet as a unique race; the world does not need another elven subtype.

Okay, thanks.

[Kurald Galain]

Ability scores: +2 Charisma Or Dexterity, +2 Intellegence.

Size: medium

Speed: 6 squares

Language: Common, Elven

Skill Bonuses: +2 Bluff, +2 Perception

Vision: low light

Dark Kin
Select on demon of the following for a parent:
This is all very standard. You get standard size, standard speed, three ability bonuses (one set, pick from two others), a language and two skills. Nothing special here. What makes races special is that everything gets a minor perk and a major perk. In your case, the minor perk is +2 to one extra skill, and the major perk is the "origin".

And they're both pretty weak. Compare to e.g. elves (minor perk: +1 speed; major perk: Accuracy power) or to humans (minor perk: +1 to three defenses; major perk: extra at-will) or even to gnomes (minor perk: ghost sound and reactive stealth, major perk: Fade Away power).

So you should amp this up a bit to make sure the race isn't weaker than the other races in the book. I would suggest putting back the 7 speed (speed is nice but not that big a deal) and instead of something trivial like concealment, have the assassin power grant actual invisibility.

[Arkhosia]

This is all very standard. You get standard size, standard speed, three ability bonuses (one set, pick from two others), a language and two skills. Nothing special here. What makes races special is that everything gets a minor perk and a major perk. In your case, the minor perk is +2 to one extra skill, and the major perk is the "origin".

And they're both pretty weak. Compare to e.g. elves (minor perk: +1 speed; major perk: Accuracy power) or to humans (minor perk: +1 to three defenses; major perk: extra at-will) or even to gnomes (minor perk: ghost sound and reactive stealth, major perk: Fade Away power).

So you should amp this up a bit to make sure the race isn't weaker than the other races in the book. I would suggest putting back the 7 speed (speed is nice but not that big a deal) and instead of something trivial like concealment, have the assassin power grant actual invisibility.

I have restored the speed, and changed the assassin power to grant invisibility.

[incandescent]

The seducer power diesn't need a trigger because it's a minor action and you can obly use a minor action on your turn. If you want it to be an out of turn power, either an immediate interrupt (preempts the attack that triggers it) or immediate reaction (takes effect after the triggering attack resolves). If you change it to an immediate action power i'd limit it to the opponent you use it against (since you have a better chance of using it to make an attack miss) and if it stays a minor action power it could stay more universal.

The hell lord power doesn't make any sense to me. There is no "dominate action" with a resistance roll. Dominate is usually an effect part of an attack versus will and is a bit too powerful for a racial at will. I'd suggest something like "immediate interrupt, trigger: an enemy attacks you. Effect: the attack targets another creature adjacent to you." but that's just the first thing that comes to mind.

[dariathalon]

I would change the Seducer's Origin into an immediate interrupt or reaction power. Triggered minor actions aren't too common since minor actions have to take place on your turn and this trigger would usually take place on someone else's turn.

If you make it an immediate interrupt it would penalize the enemy that triggered it and all other enemies who attack you until the end of your next turn. As an immediate reaction it wouldn't hurt the guy that triggered it, but would anyone who attacks you after it. Or, I suppose you could leave it as a minor action and just remove the trigger. I think I would probably call it an immediate interrupt.

Assassin's Origin, I think I'd take off the possibility to sustain it. The power doesn't need it to be powerful enough for a racial imo.

Honestly, your Hell's Lord Origin is just a mess. First dominating as a minor action is imo way too powerful for a racial power and then you make it even more powerful by giving a -2 to the enemy (on what exactly I'm not sure). Second, the way you've worded the power makes no sense. What are you using to attack? What defense are you attacking against? How long does it last? What keywords does this power have? Is it a ranged power, close power, etc? The list of questions goes on.

As Tegu mentioned, I really think you need to master the system first before you start to try to homebrew within it. Familiarize yourself with the way that things work in the system. Read through all the things that do exist out there so you have an idea of how things should work.

Edit: After reading incandescent's post, I'd agree with his assessment of seducer's origin. Making it a minor action (or an immediate reaction) could would be best for it as it stands (universally penalizing all enemies until the end of your next turn). If you make it an immediate interrupt (therefore giving you the choice to use it when it will definitely make the difference) that makes the power a little stronger and might be more appropriate to affect only one enemy.

[Ashdate]

I would suggest something closer to the following (for power reasons, but with some template changes)

Seducer's Origin
Encounter Power
Your attractive appearance puts off your attackers.
Minor Action
Until the end of your next turn, any attacks against you takes a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls.


Hell-Lord's Origin
Encounter Power
Few people are immune to the influence of devils and demons. You are no different.
Minor action, Fear

Close Burst 5, each enemy in burst
Highest ability vs Will
Hit: The target may not take immediate or opportunity actions against you or your allies until the end of your next turn.


Assassin's Origin
Encounter Power
With a snap of your fingers, you disappear.
No action
Trigger: you roll initiative and are not surprised
You gain invisibility until the end of your next turn, or until you make an attack roll.
Sustain minor: The invisibility persists until the end of your next turn.


These could all still use some tweaking, but I think they're probably a bit closer to the power level you're looking for.

[Arkhosia]

I would suggest something closer to the following (for power reasons, but with some template changes)

Seducer's Origin
Encounter Power
Your attractive appearance puts off your attackers.
Minor Action
Until the end of your next turn, any attacks against you takes a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls.


Hell-Lord's Origin
Encounter Power
Few people are immune to the influence of devils and demons. You are no different.
Minor action, Fear

Close Burst 5, each enemy in burst
Highest ability vs Will
Hit: The target may not take immediate or opportunity actions against you or your allies until the end of your next turn.


Assassin's Origin
Encounter Power
With a snap of your fingers, you disappear.
No action
Trigger: you roll initiative and are not surprised
You gain invisibility until the end of your next turn, or until you make an attack roll.
Sustain minor: The invisibility persists until the end of your next turn.


These could all still use some tweaking, but I think they're probably a bit closer to the power level you're looking for.

These are great! Thanks!

[Surrealistik]

Isn't this homebrew?

[Tegu8788]

Yes it is, but the only place 4E finds love is in here.

And I'm really glad everyone else has joined in, because I was just spit balling in the dark. I'm glad I got decently close to the mark.

Since support for 4E has ended, Unearthed Arcana, I say we do what we can, and homebrew us some fun stuff. If we can get that power point buy system on races, that's a pretty easy start.

[tcrudisi]

Yes it is, but the only place 4E finds love is in here.

And I'm really glad everyone else has joined in, because I was just spit balling in the dark. I'm glad I got decently close to the mark.

Since support for 4E has ended, Unearthed Arcana, I say we do what we can, and homebrew us some fun stuff. If we can get that power point buy system on races, that's a pretty easy start.

Are they not releasing any new books for 4e?

[Tegu8788]

That was my impression, given how much effort is being put on Next, that they were going to let 4E go by the way side soon. I doubt they will drop the builder though, it's a pretty easy money stream for them.

Arkhosia, you have editted your first post quite a bit, a smart move, so I'll look back over things, and see how things stand. But follow the suggestions of others, and you will likely have a strong, but not too strong, race.

And if this is just your practice run, feel free to start with the real one. Demon Fey lends itself to being a bit overpowered anyway. I once had an idea for a Half-Elf, but with a Tiefling instead of a Human, and an Eladrin instead of an Elf. I didn't, but maybe I'll try again in the nearish future.

[tcrudisi]

Seducer's Origin is a No Action action? So this race can use this power even when unconscious? This brings about confusion as to how it actually works in practice. It has a trigger. The trigger takes place, I then use Seducer's Origin in response. What happens?

A. It follows the rules of Free Actions. In other words, it acts like an immediate reaction unless it must work like an interrupt in order to work properly, in which case it functions like an interrupt. (In this case, it doesn't need to act like an interrupt to function properly, so it would work like a reaction. In other words: no -2 on the first attack against you.)

B. It follows the rules of Immediate Interrupts, allowing you to get a pre-emptive, on-demand -2 to hit you, except it's a No Action, so you can still pop an Immediate Interrupt at the same time.

C. The game explodes from every DM interpreting it differently.

Consider making it either an immediate interrupt, immediate reaction, or minor action. The power would work best as either an immediate interrupt or a minor action.

[Tegu8788]

I would consider this. If it's an interrupt, remove the damage reduction, or make it only apply to the triggering attack.

If it's a minor, leave everything as is. Having it reduce attack and damage feels odd to me, but I'm more used to class encounter powers, not race ones. It doesn't feel overpowered, just unusual to me.


I also support the idea of treating this like a Genasi, Shifter, Hamadryad, or Hengeyokai, as they are all races with different "forms."

Things look much better than when I first saw things. I like where this is going.

[tcrudisi]

I'm having a hard time balancing this race. It feels like it's decent enough, but at the same time, I look at it and think, "I would never play this race."

Why not?

1. I would never choose 2 stats that boost the same defense. In this case, that's Intelligence and Dexterity. So that leaves only Charisma and Intelligence, and I can't think of very many classes which make use of those stats other than an illusionist wizard. And if I'm going illusionist? There are better races.

2. Skill bonuses: Bluff and Perception. Bluff is cool, but Perception? This race doesn't get a bonus to Wisdom, so its Perception will always suffer. It's a wasted skill bonus.

3. The Dark Kins.
A. Fix that power and it becomes decent enough. Also, I'd suggest removing the -2 to damage. Not for balance reasons, but because it's already giving a -2 to attack and that's strong enough. The -2 to damage just adds another fiddly bit and it's not powerful enough to warrant really remembering. That -2 to damage also scales poorly. So at level 1 it might actually save you a healing surge, by level 10? Yeah, not so much.

B. Hell-Lord's Origin is both god-awful and ridiculously good. Let's assume a post-racial 20 at level 1. That's +5 vs. Will, or you need to roll an 8 to hit at level 1. At level 30, you now have a 30 as your highest stat, so +25 to hit vs. Will, or you need to roll a 17 to hit. Go up against a monster higher than 30? Well, you might just need to roll a 20 on the dice to hit. My point? This power scales very, very poorly, and I accounted for two things that very well may not happen: post-racial 20 and taking an Epic Destiny that increases your main stat by 2.

However, the power itself is damn powerful. Just preventing an enemy from making OA's alone would be worth it. Stopping them from taking immediate actions and you can lock down a lot of solos.

This power also comes with +2 Athletics, because yay for worthless skills!

C. Assassin's Origin is so weird. You get to freely move into position on turn 1 without worrying about Opportunity Attacks. Free combat advantage to boot, even if you burn an Action Point and use a minor action attack. That's all pretty darn powerful. So why is it weird?

It's clearly designed for Rogue-types. They are going to have probably the highest init at the table, so they won't be invisible for long. It doesn't help them as much as a minor action invis would, because it's more important for them to have invis activated on their first turn, lasting until round 2, than it is for them to have it when standing wherever they were when they rolled initiative. So, what does this mean?

You win initiative? It helps you get into position without worrying about OA's and gives you combat advantage. You lose initiative to some bad guys? They either weren't going to attack you anyway (they couldn't reach you for melee attacks) OR they lob AoE's into the starting area: so your invis doesn't help. At which point, you move into position without worrying about OA's and get combat advantage.

If Assassin's Origin was a level 2 utility power, I would never choose it. It has the appearance of a "trap power." It looks really good until you use it for 30 levels and realize that it doesn't do as much as you think it should. HOWEVER - it does limit the need for Superior Reflexes. So if you went the Dex/Int route, and have Str or Con as your tertiary, then your Will defense score sucks and it's not high enough for Superior Will and you are likely going to take Improved Defenses rather than Superior Reflexes / Superior Fort. It's ... something?

Oh, and +2 to Stealth is okay, but once again: if you are making use of the +2 stealth, then you chose Int/Dex as your stats, and that's bad for defenses (and I can only think of Wand wizards making use of those stats). And if you chose Int/Cha? Then you can't make use of the +2 stealth.

In short, this is a decent race, but nothing about it screams, "Take me over the other races!" ... at least from a mechanical stand-point. From a RP one? Sure, maybe. It's got some nice features: Speed 7 is ridiculously good, low-light vision is nice, and that's all I can really say about it. The problem is that it feels like nothing in this race synergizes with itself.

[Ashdate]

Some good commentary. I see your point that the -2 to damage is too fiddly. The issue with the "hell's-lord" power not scaling is noted; adding a +2/tier bonus (like the Dragonborn's Dragon Breath) would be in order. I don't see the power level concerns, but perhaps the power could just prevent opportunity attacks.

[Arkhosia]

Thank you for your input guys!
The reason I have been so reluctant for creating the other homebrew is mainly due to my friend wanting to play an actual, honest-to-god-I don't-care-that-they-made-shifters-I-want-to-turn-into-a-dog werewolf.
As I felt this would be a very difficult task, I wanted to get practice for homebrew and get to know the race mechanics well first, and I chose Daemonfae as my practice run.
Bad move, obviously.
Thank you though. I will start work on the dogman (yes, I'm calling it that) and will post my progress on the OP as well. And no, he will not just play a Druid (he likes wizards).

[Tegu8788]

If he's willing to be a human or a shifter, have him use the Pack Outcast theme, and it's all done, no need to homebrew.


Is he aware that the Druid can be refluffed perfectly into a Wizard, in just about every way? Big bursts, check, elemental attacks, yep, ritual casting, got it...

[Arkhosia]

If he's willing to be a human or a shifter, have him use the Pack Outcast theme, and it's all done, no need to homebrew.


Is he aware that the Druid can be refluffed perfectly into a Wizard, in just about every way? Big bursts, check, elemental attacks, yep, ritual casting, got it...

The only problems are
A. He's stubborn
B.He loves eladrin for some odd reason

I will tell him about the refluffing part.
He's sort of a power gamer, I think that's probably why he wasn't willing to consider playing as a shifter.
(He named his wizard Roadkill. He's a necromancer.)

[tcrudisi]

The only problems are
A. He's stubborn
B.He loves eladrin for some odd reason

I will tell him about the refluffing part.
He's sort of a power gamer, I think that's probably why he wasn't willing to consider playing as a shifter.
(He named his wizard Roadkill. He's a necromancer.)

heh. I'm definitely a power-gamer and let me tell you: Shifter is not a bad race. Just the opposite; it's my go-to race for a couple of different builds.

Wizard isn't one of them, though. For that matter, I wouldn't use Eladrin for Wizard either. Eladrin is very good, but if I'm looking to go all-out, it's not my top choice in any build except the old Fey Charge build, which has since been errata'ed into non-existence.

There's an easier way to handle this situation, too. In fact, it would work out better for him: just let him take the Pack Outcast theme on top of whatever race he wants. It's not brokenly powerful and he can still claim to be a werewolf. Plus he gets to be whatever race he wants to be. And - bonus points - it is much easier for you. Win/win for everyone.

[Arkhosia]

heh. I'm definitely a power-gamer and let me tell you: Shifter is not a bad race. Just the opposite; it's my go-to race for a couple of different builds.

Wizard isn't one of them, though. For that matter, I wouldn't use Eladrin for Wizard either. Eladrin is very good, but if I'm looking to go all-out, it's not my top choice in any build except the old Fey Charge build, which has since been errata'ed into non-existence.

There's an easier way to handle this situation, too. In fact, it would work out better for him: just let him take the Pack Outcast theme on top of whatever race he wants. It's not brokenly powerful and he can still claim to be a werewolf. Plus he gets to be whatever race he wants to be. And - bonus points - it is much easier for you. Win/win for everyone.

Where is the pack outcast theme?
Nevermind. Well, at least the price for 4e books should go down eventually thanks to the new edition. Thank you supply and demand!

[Tegu8788]

If that's really all the problems, just replace the Eladrin Racial power with the Wolf Form one, and call it a day.

[Arkhosia]

If that's really all the problems, just replace the Eladrin Racial power with the Wolf Form one, and call it a day.

I'll do that then.

[Mando Knight]

Note: none of those fiends are Demons in 4e. All three are Devils (residents of the Nine Hells), which are not Demons (residents of the Abyss).

[Arkhosia]

Note: none of those fiends are Demons in 4e. All three are Devils (residents of the Nine Hells), which are not Demons (residents of the Abyss).
Note to self: remember to check MM next time.
I'll just change it to devilfey, because seriously, what sane being would want to **** demons (well, except for a balor maybe, but glabrezu is not an exception: drow priestesses do, but they're drow priestesses)?

[Kurald Galain]

1. I would never choose 2 stats that boost the same defense. In this case, that's Intelligence and Dexterity.
I find the importance thereof is overrated. That said, most races that boost the same defense twice give a +1 bonus to something else.



2. Skill bonuses: Bluff and Perception. Bluff is cool, but Perception? This race doesn't get a bonus to Wisdom, so its Perception will always suffer. It's a wasted skill bonus.
Not really; if you use a wisdom class it's still decent. That said, +2 bonuses to a skill really don't matter all that much. That goes for pretty much all races.

In practice, a good racial power has a much greater impact in play than whether one of your skills or defenses is one or two points higher. This is why I would choose Eladrin or Shadar-Kai for many classes, simply because a 1/encounter teleportation effect is extremely useful.

Hell-Lord's Origin could be rewritten to use normal scaling (e.g. +3/6/9 to-hit by tier). Assassin's Origin could be useful for any squishy class that doesn't want to be attacked in the first round.

[Sol]

Dual origin:
You are either fey or demonic in origin.

Seducer's Origin
Encounter Power
Your attractive appearance puts off your attackers.
No Action
Trigger: An opponent attacks you.
Until the end of your next turn, any opponent who attacks you takes a -2 penalty to attack you.
At level 11, one opponent of your choice is charmed for 1d6 turns.
At level 21, one opponent of your choice is dominated for 1d6 turns instead of being charmed.

Are there any issues with this?

A few issues remain.

Firstly, "charmed," isn't a defined game element in 4e, so that doesnt mean anything. Secondly, no existing 4e powers use die rolls to determine duration, and multi-turn no-save dominate without a target restriction or an attack roll is obnoxiously overpowered, even for epic.

I suggest the following:
Seducer's Origin
Encounter Power
Your attractive appearance puts off your attackers.
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: An opponent attacks you.
Until the end of your next turn, any opponent who attacks you takes a -2 penalty to attack you.
At level 11, after the triggering attack is resolved, the triggering attacker is dazed until the end of its next turn.
At level 21, after the triggering attack is resolved, the triggering attacker is dominated until the end of its next turn instead of dazed.

I quoted the origin selection as well, because origin has almost no mechanical effect in 4e. So far as I can recall, theres one feat being Fey qualifies you for (and it's not a great one), and one item being demonic might be relevant for. If there's enough power elsewhere, that doesn't really matter. And when it matters
for so little, why not have dual origin make you both instead of giving you the choice of either?

The fear power needs +3/6/9 scaling. badly.

[Ashdate]

I suggest the following:
Seducer's Origin
Encounter Power
Your attractive appearance puts off your attackers.
Immediate Interrupt
Trigger: An opponent attacks you.
Until the end of your next turn, any opponent who attacks you takes a -2 penalty to attack you.
At level 11, after the triggering attack is resolved, the triggering attacker is dazed until the end of its next turn.
At level 21, after the triggering attack is resolved, the triggering attacker is dominated until the end of its next turn instead of dazed.

The way you've worded this, it should really just be a immediate reaction, which would cut down on some of the words.

That said, I don't think the added daze or domination is really necessary, and the strange scaling it doesn't really fit in with what a racial power should be capable of, I think. If you wanted to add daze/domination, they'd probably be best as racial feats. A flat -2 to attack rolls (or perhaps -2 or Cha bonus, whichever is higher) against the target until the end of their next turn is strong enough I think.

[Sol]

The way you've worded this, it should really just be a immediate reaction, which would cut down on some of the words.

That said, I don't think the added daze or domination is really necessary, and the strange scaling it doesn't really fit in with what a racial power should be capable of, I think. If you wanted to add daze/domination, they'd probably be best as racial feats. A flat -2 to attack rolls (or perhaps -2 or Cha bonus, whichever is higher) against the target until the end of their next turn is strong enough I think.

The attack roll penalty (which in effect is more a defense bonus) would suffer greatly from not being an interrupt, and would only come into play if more than one creature attacked you that round.

I do agree the dominate may be a bit much, but a minor and ill-timed defense bonus is too little, so rather than gutting his ideas, i toned them down to match 4e power ideals.

[Ashdate]

The attack roll penalty (which in effect is more a defense bonus) would suffer greatly from not being an interrupt, and would only come into play if more than one creature attacked you that round.

I do agree the dominate may be a bit much, but a minor and ill-timed defense bonus is too little, so rather than gutting his ideas, i toned them down to match 4e power ideals.

I can see the benefit of having the power being an interrupt, but the problem I have is that the level 11 and 21 "bonuses" are not interrupts (they instead work like immediate reactions), which is just confusing I think.

I think a minor action -2 to enemy attack rolls (or if you prefer to think of it the other way, +2 to defenses) could be useful in many situations, most of all on a defender who can mark a target, and apply a further -2 penalty anyway. It could also be used when trying to avoid opportunity attacks, or even as a defensive measure when hit points are low.

I'm not set in stone on suggesting the power be a minor action rather than an interrupt, but the daze/dominate things need to either go or be regulated to feat support.

[Arkhosia]

I can see the benefit of having the power being an interrupt, but the problem I have is that the level 11 and 21 "bonuses" are not interrupts (they instead work like immediate reactions), which is just confusing I think.

I think a minor action -2 to enemy attack rolls (or if you prefer to think of it the other way, +2 to defenses) could be useful in many situations, most of all on a defender who can mark a target, and apply a further -2 penalty anyway. It could also be used when trying to avoid opportunity attacks, or even as a defensive measure when hit points are low.

I'm not set in stone on suggesting the power be a minor action rather than an interrupt, but the daze/dominate things need to either go or be regulated to feat support.
I will switch it to the +2 defense.
Adding feats now

[Mando Knight]

Also, there's no such thing as Demonic origin. For a devil, the origin you're looking for is Immortal. Devil and Demon are keywords that are most usually added to Immortals and Elementals, respectively.

[Arkhosia]

Also, there's no such thing as Demonic origin. For a devil, the origin you're looking for is Immortal. Devil and Demon are keywords that are most usually added to Immortals and Elementals, respectively.

Switched it to immortal.
Thanks guys!