Aleax LA

[Alokue]

So I have a player that wants to play an Aleax, and it would be incredibly flavorful. It's a high-Op gestalt game, and the player has trouble with optimizing sometimes and is really reluctant to spend a lot of time on character creation, so I want to reward the trouble he's gone to, but I don't want to give him a bunch of 'free' stuff without LA. What LA do you think would be appropriate for the Aleax template from BoED 158?

[Alokue]

We'd completely eliminate singular enemy, and the player would apply the rest of the template to himself. Not a copy perse of the Aleax's target but more of someone who looks like him and is blessed with special abilities with a deity's blessing to kill him.

[Temotei]

So I have a player that wants to play an Aleax, and it would be incredibly flavorful. It's a high-Op game, and the player has trouble with optimizing sometimes and is really reluctant to spend a lot of time on character creation, so I want to reward the trouble he's gone to, but I don't want to give him a bunch of 'free' stuff without LA. What LA do you think would be appropriate for the Aleax template from BoED 158?

Eliminating singular enemy as in your second post...it's still broken. Shapechange at will is crazy. If it's limited pre-game to a couple of non-game-breaking forms, it's a lot better. Still, hard to pin down a solid LA. Probably upward of +3 to +5.

[eggynack]

Eliminating singular enemy as in your second post...it's still broken. Shapechange at will is crazy. If it's limited pre-game to a couple of non-game-breaking forms, it's a lot better. Still, hard to pin down a solid LA. Probably upward of +3 to +5.
Three or five? That seems pretty low, by a lot. It gets true seeing at will, and construct traits, and spell resistance (which tends to get overpriced on playable characters), and free (but mediocre) blasting. That's not even quite all of it, and that stuff I listed is crazy. Additionally, if shapechange works as written, and gives you any form you want, I can't imagine it having a playable LA.

[faircoin]

+8 to +12...

I think this is at least as good as lich to demilich. (Much better, actually, but I can't type coherently right now.)

[Temotei]

Three or five? That seems pretty low, by a lot. It gets true seeing at will, and construct traits, and spell resistance (which tends to get overpriced on playable characters), and free (but mediocre) blasting. That's not even quite all of it, and that stuff I listed is crazy. Additionally, if shapechange works as written, and gives you any form you want, I can't imagine it having a playable LA.

The main features are true seeing and shapechange. The rest is nice, but if you're even considering aleax, it's a high-level game. At that point, levels are going to be more valuable because of 8th- and 9th-level spells.

Like I said, if you limited shapechange, you'd be limiting much of the template's power.

[eggynack]

The main features are true seeing and shapechange. The rest is nice, but if you're even considering aleax, it's a high-level game. At that point, levels are going to be more valuable because of 8th- and 9th-level spells.

Like I said, if you limited shapechange, you'd be limiting much of the template's power.
That's not really how the game works. You can't set an LA at +3 under the assumption that players will only take it at high level. If I'm considering being an aleax with this LA, I can do so as early as level four, because LA doesn't have any of that kind of restriction unless you set it yourself. You also discounted a massive quantity of powerful abilities by saying that the aleax has nothing important apart from shape change and true seeing. Construct traits cover an absolutely ridiculous amount of stuff. It's an immunity to most of the status effects in the game, including mind affecting. That's two schools of magic you're already shutting down, just by existing. Additionally, SR is usually overpriced, so it seems reasonable to continue to do so. Just look at the drow, and you'll see that it's basically costed at a +1 all on its own. I didn't even mention the fast healing in my last post, but they have fast healing. For an example of that, take a look at trolls, who have the rather similar ability: regeneration. You get large size, really high stat bumps, regeneration, and +5 LA, and 6 RHD. Your costing just seems completely off.

Faircoin's assessment of +8 or +12 seems a lot closer to the mark, and I don't even know if that's with full access to shapechange. If you can shapechange at will, that puts you around the power level of a 17th level wizard, all on its own. It's quite possibly the best spell in the game, so getting it on a 13th level character seems potentially incredibly broken. Thus, with full shapechange access, I can't see pricing it much lower than +16, and that might be without a bunch of the other stuff. It's just that good.

[eggynack]

Basically, my suggestion is to tell him no. Tell him that it makes absolutely no sense to have an aleax as a playable race, because it makes no sense to have an aleax as a playable race. Instead of an aleax, maybe you should suggest something like a refluffed warforged. It would have exactly the same flavor, because he would just be a warforged sent down to kill his doppelganger, rather than an aleax. You could even call it an aleax, or make it so that he was an aleax in his backstory, but got caught in a cosmic storm of some kind. Whatever you do to get him from an aleax to a warforged, that's up to you and him. The end result is that your game will have an actually balanced construct race rather than an aleax monstrosity, and he'll get to play a good approximation of his original idea. It's a win win situation, or maybe a win win win, because I would have successfully helped to mediate a character's construction.

[Evolved Shrimp]

Adding to eggynack’s caution: You, as the DM, set yourself up for quite a bit of hurt by giving a player unlimited shapechange.

Just think of it: The player could choose to transform into ten different creatures during a medium-length combat, and each of these has their own unique set of stats. To top if off, the stats are not straight from the Monster Manual, but a mixture of the creature’s stat blocks and the PC’s individual stats.

Taking away or severely limiting the shapechange not only helps to keep the balance, but also your sanity and probably the other players’ enjoyment of the game.

[Alokue]

Okay, so admitting something a bit embarrassing that will make me sound like less of an idiot -- I didn't read the template before posting on the board. I'm not good at balancing and LA and stuff, so I just threw it up and hoped someone would comment. Maybe I'll just apply the fluff to an existing template or severely downgrade the abilities.

[Flickerdart]

+2 LA templates give 7th and 8th level spells/powers (Phrenic - Ultrablast/Half-fey - Irresistible Dance) with an HD prerequisite. Half-Fiend and Half-Celestial also give high-level SLAs in this fashion. There's nothing stopping you from modifying the Aleax template to do the same.

[Temotei]

Construct traits

Oops. For some reason, I thought it was an outsider. Missed that in both the entry and your first post. Derp.

Still, Flickerdart has a good idea. With shapechange limited to a couple of forms based on deity that aren't too destructive, you could have a playable thing going on.

[eggynack]

Oops. For some reason, I thought it was an outsider. Missed that in both the entry and your first post. Derp.

Still, Flickerdart has a good idea. With shapechange limited to a couple of forms based on deity that aren't too destructive, you could have a playable thing going on.
It's probably possible to get it working, but you'd have a pretty complicated progression through the whole thing, and I don't know how I'd cost it, or where I'd put breakpoints. Honestly, the slightly reflavored warforged seems like the best solution. It's a clean set up, and it works out because you get a construct of some kind out of the deal.

[Temotei]

It's probably possible to get it working, but you'd have a pretty complicated progression through the whole thing, and I don't know how I'd cost it, or where I'd put breakpoints. Honestly, the slightly reflavored warforged seems like the best solution. It's a clean set up, and it works out because you get a construct of some kind out of the deal.

Makes more sense fluff-wise, too. Good deal.

[eggynack]

I think that the important thing, just from the perspective of how this would work, is how LA would even happen on an aleax. Like, let's say that you're an aleax of captain Fungus. Fungus, who has angered his deity, is at level 15. You're an aleax of him, so you have to have the exact same levels as he does. That means that you either have to get rid of the top levels for LA, or otherwise just be several LA stronger than your counterpart. The latter is how it actually works in game, but it seems rather dismal from a story perspective.

A player overcoming an aleax is interesting, because he's a stronger version of you. Your biggest asset, from a metagame perspective, is that you know your character's capabilities better than the DM does. In this case it's the opposite. Instead of being captain Fungus, trying your best to kill an enemy who is greater than you are in every way, you're captain Sugnuf, and completely outclass your opponent. Unless the opponent's only asset is his ability to hide for a ridiculous amount of time, any fight between you and Fungus has your victory as a forgone conclusion.

Neither possible outcome is even satisfying, because if you win then you just acted in accordance with your higher chance of success, and if you lose then it's because you kinda suck at the game, and you feel as though your head is a butt. No one comes away from that fight happy, so the only way for this to work is for the two characters to just never come into contact, even at the climax. I see two options from there. You can either run the warforged as I said, which gets you to even LA, and gets you to parity, or you can run the long progression template, but open the campaign with him de-leveled. Like, you're a level one character with five LA, against a level 15 opponent with no LA. That could actually make for an interesting backstory, with a tragedy befalling our noble aleax, forcing him to fight his way back to full power. Still, the other way is more straightforward, so it's probably the better way to go.

[Flickerdart]

I think that the important thing, just from the perspective of how this would work, is how LA would even happen on an aleax. Like, let's say that you're an aleax of captain Fungus. Fungus, who has angered his deity, is at level 15. You're an aleax of him, so you have to have the exact same levels as he does. That means that you either have to get rid of the top levels for LA, or otherwise just be several LA stronger than your counterpart. The latter is how it actually works in game, but it seems rather dismal from a story perspective.

"Like that guy but better" is already how it works, though. Giving LA to the template won't make a difference there.

[eggynack]

"Like that guy but better" is already how it works, though. Giving LA to the template won't make a difference there.
I'm aware, and that's what I said. What I am also saying, however, is that the way it works in a normal game, and the way it works with you as the aleax, are two completely different things. The narrative roles are reversed, and what once would have been an interesting battle is now not one. What's even the challenge of taking on someone far less powerful than you are? Without singular enemy, you can presumably be attacked by henchmen to even up the fight, but I feel that it's best to eliminate most of the aleax's nature to make things work better. Instead of being the hand of a deity sent out to squash a tiny bug, you're the deity's field agent trying your hardest to take out an enemy who is your equal in most ways. If the goal is that he wants the exact aleax in every respect, warforged definitely won't work. However, if the goal is a deity produced doppelganger doing the deity's dirty work, the warforged becomes a very viable option.

[Rubik]

I think that the important thing, just from the perspective of how this would work, is how LA would even happen on an aleax. Like, let's say that you're an aleax of captain Fungus. Fungus, who has angered his deity, is at level 15. You're an aleax of him, so you have to have the exact same levels as he does. That means that you either have to get rid of the top levels for LA, or otherwise just be several LA stronger than your counterpart. The latter is how it actually works in game, but it seems rather dismal from a story perspective.

A player overcoming an aleax is interesting, because he's a stronger version of you. Your biggest asset, from a metagame perspective, is that you know your character's capabilities better than the DM does. In this case it's the opposite. Instead of being captain Fungus, trying your best to kill an enemy who is greater than you are in every way, you're captain Sugnuf, and completely outclass your opponent. Unless the opponent's only asset is his ability to hide for a ridiculous amount of time, any fight between you and Fungus has your victory as a forgone conclusion.

Neither possible outcome is even satisfying, because if you win then you just acted in accordance with your higher chance of success, and if you lose then it's because you kinda suck at the game, and you feel as though your head is a butt. No one comes away from that fight happy, so the only way for this to work is for the two characters to just never come into contact, even at the climax. I see two options from there. You can either run the warforged as I said, which gets you to even LA, and gets you to parity, or you can run the long progression template, but open the campaign with him de-leveled. Like, you're a level one character with five LA, against a level 15 opponent with no LA. That could actually make for an interesting backstory, with a tragedy befalling our noble aleax, forcing him to fight his way back to full power. Still, the other way is more straightforward, so it's probably the better way to go.Alternately, your target has suddenly skyrocketed in power since you were created. Let's say you're Thoriphes, and your original target goes One-Winged Angel at some point. Whether this is just post-creation, or you have to race to stop him from ascending, and you're far, far behind, so it's work to catch up. And then he manages to absorb Mommy Dearest or whatever and tries to summon Meteor right as you get there.

Enjoy your climax.

[Flickerdart]

What's even the challenge of taking on someone far less powerful than you are?
Anyone powerful enough to have an Aleax is powerful enough to have minions who can buff him to the nines while blowing up the Aleax's allies.

[eggynack]

Alternately, your target has suddenly skyrocketed in power since you were created. Let's say you're Thoriphes, and your original target goes One-Winged Angel at some point. Whether this is just post-creation, or you have to race to stop him from ascending, and you're far, far behind, so it's work to catch up. And then he manages to absorb Mommy Dearest or whatever and tries to summon Meteor right as you get there.

Enjoy your climax.
Yeah, that could work out. The deity would send you specifically to stop an ascension of some kind, but you came to late, and now you're infinite power behind him. It'd be tricky to make something that's infinite power ahead of an aleax, because as I've noted, that set of abilities is crazy buns, but if it can be made to work, it can be made to work.

Anyone powerful enough to have an Aleax is powerful enough to have minions who can buff him to the nines while blowing up the Aleax's allies.
This also works, though if singular enemy is being eliminated, it doesn't necessarily need to be a single buffed guy. His allies can presumably target you directly. Anyways, I guess there are more solutions to this particular problem than I thought. The issue of the particular progression is still a tricky one, and I think that warforged is a clean enough answer that it makes sense as a suggestion. I mean, you're presumably talking about a scaling progression, not only of the crazy spell like abilities, but also of the development of construct traits. It's doable, definitely, but it's really frigging tricky on every level. It's not the kind of project I'd take on, especially when there's a valid solution just sitting there.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Been reading the entry and being an aleax seems to have unfortunate implications. It seems to me that they need to be destroyed if they succeed, unless their deity never intends to use one again.

They serve their deity.
They can only be sent to kill one enemy.
A deity can only have one at any given time.

Doesn't sound good for the aleax in question.
Also they are sent directly to their enemy upon creation. Very short life span for a construct.