Spring Attack and Pounce

[PraxisVetli]

Hey guys, first things first, been lurking a long time, some straight up geniuses here.
Second, need your help. I've looking for a feat that might make Charging a Move Action. Got one already, but its OGL, wondering if anyone knows a more...standard..one.
Because then, with a catfolk that comes with pounce and is taking Spring Attack..
Or a Draegloth with Improved Multiweapon Fighting and the alt. level in Barbarian...
Suddenly my already epic PC's are gonna be doing hilarious amounts of damage. And I need to be ready for that, ya know?

[Rebel7284]

Doesn't exist.

You CAN get the sudden leap maneuver to jump away after charging. I think there are items that give you low level maneuvers.
Also there are boots that allow you to teleport 10 feet as a swift action.
Also, belt of battle can convert swift actions to move actions 3 times a day.

Improved flyby attack can do something similar too as I recall.

[PraxisVetli]

So get the boots and the belt and will that work?
Because being able to charge, pounce, spring attack, move in a circle, pounce again...
rinse repeat
????
profit.
With the catfolk currently pounding monk, this could happen a few times.
anyway to make it work?
Edit:
what if she has 4 billion in jump? does pounce require a charge? or can she just make a giant leap?
can it all be done with just some very tactful wording?


side.
Its my gf's character

[Urpriest]

So get the boots and the belt and will that work?
Because being able to charge, pounce, spring attack, move in a circle, pounce again...
rinse repeat
????
profit.
With the catfolk currently pounding monk, this could happen a few times.
anyway to make it work?


side.
Its my gf's character

You can't combine charging and spring attack with any of those methods, anyway. Even charging as a move action wouldn't help you there, Spring Attack doesn't give you extra move actions, just lets you move.

Just curious, are you actually looking for a move-action charge, or a way to charge using Spring Attack, or what? If you could be a little more clear that would be helpful.

[PraxisVetli]

Just curious, are you actually looking for a move-action charge, or a way to charge using Spring Attack, or what? If you could be a little more clear that would be helpful.

anyway, i want to be able to charge, so pounce kicks. insert full attack, the spring attack would let her back up and charge again. she also has Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, and we're discussing a 8-9 total feat process (four of which are epic) that would enable her to spring attack freely, without the penalties. all this is heavily limited by her move speed, which is part of why she's taking monk.
It should work, if there was a way to stack it all, shouldn't it?

Edit:
Am I explaining this well enough? I'm having trouble putting my idea into words.

[Nightraiderx]

HOLD UP there. What about abusing the ruling of Battle Jump in Unapproachable East?
If the catfolk has really good movement bonuses, you can jump as a move action, and pounce on your way down. Do note you will need to have 10 ft above them to do so, so you will need a really good jump score and some feats like leap of the heavens or getting the 3rd level tiger claw stance that grants you a 10 ft enhancement bonus to jump. you'd need martial study/stance feats if you don't dip into warblade or swordsage.

Edit: as long as you don't move more than your total distance in spring attack, this might just work in tandum with the spring attack feat, although I don't know the ruling of using jumps in the middle of move actions.

[PraxisVetli]

HOLD UP there. What about abusing the ruling of Battle Jump in Unapproachable East?
If the catfolk has really good movement bonuses, you can jump as a move action, and pounce on your way down. Do note you will need to have 10 ft above them to do so, so you will need a really good jump score and some feats like leap of the heavens or getting the 3rd level tiger claw stance that grants you a 10 ft enhancement bonus to jump. you'd need martial study/stance feats if you don't dip into warblade or swordsage.
Her jump is ABSURD.
as in, +40 or so absurd. We're all approx lvl 23, so goin 10' in the air really isn't unheard of.
but I think you're seein what I'm getting at; whats Battle Jump?
I'm usually hesitant on Unapproachable East stuff..

[Nightraiderx]

Battle Jump. (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Battle_Jump)

You'll still need leap of the heavens feat so the DC isn't doubled for a standing jump and gives bonuses if you do move before jumping.

[PraxisVetli]

Edit: as long as you don't move more than your total distance in spring attack, this might just work in tandum with the spring attack feat, although I don't know the ruling of using jumps in the middle of move actions.

THATS WHAT IM SAYIN!!
this should totally work! And it's crazy amounts of damage!! She wants to take Prehensile Tail from Savage Species and grab a tail blade, take multiweapon Fighting; imagine the damage output. With roughly 7 attacks per round, some +6 flaming blast weapons, and she's examining taking Swordsage after monk to specialize in Desert Wind...
really just a whirling ball of flame.
Like a red Yoda.

[PraxisVetli]

Battle Jump. (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Battle_Jump)

You'll still need leap of the heavens feat so the DC isn't doubled for a standing jump and gives bonuses if you do move before jumping.
she may or may not have Leap of the Heavens, I don't know. Battle Jump is just mean.
Worth bringing up Power Attack and Leap Attack??

[iDesu]

anyway, i want to be able to charge, so pounce kicks. insert full attack, the spring attack would let her back up and charge again. she also has Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, and we're discussing a 8-9 total feat process (four of which are epic) that would enable her to spring attack freely, without the penalties. all this is heavily limited by her move speed, which is part of why she's taking monk.
It should work, if there was a way to stack it all, shouldn't it?

Edit:
Am I explaining this well enough? I'm having trouble putting my idea into words.

So you want to be able to full attack and back away? If that's what you're aiming for then you could combine travel devotion with a charge. Travel devotion will let you move as a swift action for 1 minute, so you would charge, then swift action retreat. I can't imagine that being too helpful because they can just charge right back at you, and you will provoke an AoO for retreating that way. I guess you could always throw in the Feathered Wings graft to gain a flight speed equal to double your land speed. I don't see how the spring attack line is helpful here at all.

[PraxisVetli]

I don't see how the spring attack line is helpful here at all.
Spring Attack removes their AoO's

[Nightraiderx]

Leap attack will interfere with her spring attack feat line. You will already have to be in the air for Battle Jump, so it won't compound for the (pounce/move) ability of leap attack. But Leap attack will compound with battle jump for some nasty damage multipliers for both your pa and overall damage increase from battle jump.
What's her level build up?

Suggestions I can think of:
Grab 4 levels of scout: Get improved skirmish which gives additional +2d6 damage and +2 AC for 20 ft or more movement. This also increases your base speed by +10

A swordsage dip at the end will net you alot of good desert wind manuevers. Desert Wind (the manuever) can be a way to strike alot of enemies with a single move action. Boosts will be good for the extra fire damage, there are also tiger claw manuevers that give extra attacks as a boost as well.

[PraxisVetli]

Leap attack will interfere with her spring attack feat line. You will already have to be in the air for Battle Jump, so it won't compound for the (pounce/move) ability of leap attack. But Leap attack will compound with battle jump for some nasty damage multipliers for both your pa and overall damage increase from battle jump.
What's her level build up?

Doesn't she have to jump anyway for pounce? why not grab the damage while you're at it? the Rules compendium states you can jump as part of a charge, so that all works.
lvl build:
6 fighter
6 kensai
1 shadowdancer
11 monk
not inherently in that order

[Nightraiderx]

are the kensai and shadowdancer levels for mechanical benefit or for roleplaying benefit? I also wouldn't go higher than 2-4 fighter levels.

[Urpriest]

anyway, i want to be able to charge, so pounce kicks. insert full attack, the spring attack would let her back up and charge again. she also has Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz, and we're discussing a 8-9 total feat process (four of which are epic) that would enable her to spring attack freely, without the penalties. all this is heavily limited by her move speed, which is part of why she's taking monk.
It should work, if there was a way to stack it all, shouldn't it?

Edit:
Am I explaining this well enough? I'm having trouble putting my idea into words.

Ok, so your setup itself can't be done. Spring Attack won't let you charge during it, and there really aren't any ways to change that.

There are a couple ways to get multiple full attacks a turn, and even more specifically multiple charges a turn, though. As mentioned, Battle Jump is a feat with really ambiguous wording that can be abused to do this. Several prestige classes grant the ability to make a full attack after you teleport, examples include Teflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East), Crinti Shadow Marauder (Shining South?) and Blade of Orien (Dragonmarked). If you gain the ability to teleport more than once a turn (a Swordsage for example can teleport as a Swift, Move, or Standard with different maneuvers) then this allows you to get multiple full attacks in a turn.

Note that Catfolk generally get pounce abilities that only affect their claws, so being a Catfolk is probably useless for this character.

[Lightlawbliss]

Battle jump+tiger claw (and a few other schools on the side) creates some scary combos. Like 3+ full attacks worth of attacks in one round scary.

[PraxisVetli]

are the kensai and shadowdancer levels for mechanical benefit or for roleplaying benefit? I also wouldn't go higher than 2-4 fighter levels.

kensai for both, her sole weapon is Crescent war Fans, so yeah, power attack not as efficient as could be
Shadowdancer for HiPS.
Fighter levels were for early BAB and feats to help set up what she needed for now.
Tell me this can work man, cuz I'm the Draegloth mentioned in opening post, and ima do the same thing to things. and i hit WAY harder than her...

[PraxisVetli]

Ok, so your setup itself can't be done. Spring Attack won't let you charge during it, and there really aren't any ways to change that.
But then if she just jumps instead of charging, does that work?


Note that Catfolk generally get pounce abilities that only affect their claws, so being a Catfolk is probably useless for this character.
As a Monk and having the Temple Swordsman Archetype, doesn't that qualify?
Her fans are also the only weapons she's proficient in, she had to take the proficiency for the tailblade.

[Curmudgeon]

HOLD UP there. What about abusing the ruling of Battle Jump in Unapproachable East?
That's definitely in the "abuse" category. Battle Jump requires you to drop from above the opponent. A horizontal jump won't ever have you directly above your target. (Note: "drop" means exactly that; it doesn't mean "arcing mostly horizontally with a small vertical component".)

[Nightraiderx]

Spring attack doesn't interfere with the fact that you are getting a charge attack from the movement itself, not the attack action. I think it still works, with the wording of how battle jump starts out. "You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent." It's saying it's a non-action for setting up the situation. If she is using war fans, then she needs to stick to them. I think it's not worth the 5 levels you could be using for more deadly effect. If she has a good alignment she can otherwise take ancestral weapon from the Book of Exalted Deeds and use a Warfan as an inherited item. I wouldn't waste your feat pool on kensai. Kensai are designed to be tanks, you will neglect your good dex (both needed for the hiding skill) for a very small return of having a single self-imbued weapon (the multi-weapon trait only implies unarmed strikes) and abilities that replace your dex with a con-based skill.

I do hope you are investing in two weapon fighting and if catfolk I would invest in this- Beast Strike (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Beast_Strike) also dip in barbarian to get pounce.


Edit: I thought there was vertical jumps as well? And if that's the case, I can direct that psionic teleportation should trigger this and suggest a tashlatora psiwarrior.

[Urpriest]

But then if she just jumps instead of charging, does that work?

There's no such thing. Jumping is a check you make when you move, there's no way to parse "jump instead of charging". You can jump when charging, certainly, but that's just because charging involves moving, and you can jump whenever you're using your land speed.



As a Monk and having the Temple Swordsman Archetype, doesn't that qualify?
Her fans are also the only weapons she's proficient in, she had to take the proficiency for the tailblade.

Temple Swordsman isn't on the Pathfinder SRD, so I have no idea what it does. But in general, unarmed strikes and claws are different natural weapons, so an ability that lets you use one won't let you use the other.

[PraxisVetli]

Spring attack doesn't interfere with the fact that you are getting a charge attack from the movement itself, not the attack action. I think it still works, with the wording of how battle jump starts out. "You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent." It's saying it's a non-action for setting up the situation. If she is using war fans, then she needs to stick to them. I think it's not worth the 5 levels you could be using for more deadly effect. If she has a good alignment she can otherwise take ancestral weapon from the Book of Exalted Deeds and use a Warfan as an inherited item. I wouldn't waste your feat pool on kensai. Kensai are designed to be tanks, you will neglect your good dex (both needed for the hiding skill) for a very small return of having a single self-imbued weapon (the multi-weapon trait only implies unarmed strikes) and abilities that replace your dex with a con-based skill.

I do hope you are investing in two weapon fighting and if catfolk I would invest in this- Beast Strike (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Beast_Strike) also dip in barbarian to get pounce.

she's absolutely doing TWF, and Has an impressive dex, though now that its high enough, she's starting to put into Str. It does say for kensai that it does double weapons, I allowed her to put it as her weapons being a "set" If anything she could put a chain connecting them, call it some kind of whacked Guisarikama. does she have to do the level in Barb, because wouldn't that go poorly with the monk part of her?


what im getting out of all of this:
Battle Jump would enable her to jump, activating pounce, then full attack?
Spring Attack lot would enable her to back up and repeat the process?
yeah?

[PraxisVetli]

There's no such thing. Jumping is a check you make when you move, there's no way to parse "jump instead of charging". You can jump when charging, certainly, but that's just because charging involves moving, and you can jump whenever you're using your land speed.



Temple Swordsman isn't on the Pathfinder SRD, so I have no idea what it does. But in general, unarmed strikes and claws are different natural weapons, so an ability that lets you use one won't let you use the other.
Temple Swordsman enables her to use her fans as her unarmed strike, keeping the upping damage and Flurry of Blows
-Quintessential Monk
it should negate the charge entirely, shouldn't it? just pounce as default?

[Talderas]

Her jump is ABSURD.
as in, +40 or so absurd. We're all approx lvl 23, so goin 10' in the air really isn't unheard of.
but I think you're seein what I'm getting at; whats Battle Jump?
I'm usually hesitant on Unapproachable East stuff..

At epic levels you should see if your DM will let you have an item with Quickened Greater Slide as a use activated item. That is what I did on my Samurai/Kensai charger at epic levels.

That lets you activate the items as a swift action before your movement or attack and moves you 20 ft away from your target which gives you ample distance to charge. Since it's a quickened 2nd level spell the base cost of the item will roughly be 6 (Spell Level) * 11 (Caster Level) * 2000 or 132,000. If someone has a better way to price such an item so that Greater Slide can be activated each round as a swift rather than standard action that would help.

[Urpriest]

what im getting out of all of this:
Battle Jump would enable her to jump, activating pounce, then full attack?
Spring Attack lot would enable her to back up and repeat the process?
yeah?

No.

Battle Jump requires you to jump, it doesn't enable you to jump. Once you jump (and drop down on your opponent, the meaning of which depends on how your DM parses the english of the feat), you count as charging, which means you can use pounce (pounce is related to charging, not jumping). Pounce lets you make a full attack instead of your normal charge attack.

Spring Attack would be mostly irrelevant, since it takes a full round action. Most of the time you'd be better off just using a normal move action to move away.

[PraxisVetli]

No.

Battle Jump requires you to jump, it doesn't enable you to jump. Once you jump (and drop down on your opponent, the meaning of which depends on how your DM parses the english of the feat), you count as charging, which means you can use pounce (pounce is related to charging, not jumping). Pounce lets you make a full attack instead of your normal charge attack.

Spring Attack would be mostly irrelevant, since it takes a full round action. Most of the time you'd be better off just using a normal move action to move away.
damn. so its really one or the other, not both?
is it worth it to speck for both, that way if theres multiple opponents, she can jet all over spring attacking, or with a single BBEG, do pounce?
seems the way if its not gonna stack..

[Urpriest]

Temple Swordsman enables her to use her fans as her unarmed strike, keeping the upping damage and Flurry of Blows
-Quintessential Monk


Yeah, there's no way to confuse using fans as unarmed strike with using fans as claws. Unarmed strike and claws have nothing to do with each other and there isn't any way to get them mixed up.


it should negate the charge entirely, shouldn't it? just pounce as default?

I don't know what you mean by that. Pouncing is something you do when you charge, so again this sentence doesn't make sense. Could you try parsing your words out logically before posting them? Just typing as a stream of consciousness makes you very difficult to understand.

[Nightraiderx]

If you choose, you could take it psionic and make battle jump easier/less abused. Psiwarrior , would have similar flavor and you wouldn't be stuck to lawful alignment. There's an online alt feature that lets you be able to give enchantment bonuses to a specified weapon. hell, you could take expanded knowledge and grab the swift action port feat that lets you drop after you appear, which would be directly above the opponent and then that would activate battle jump. Getting tashlatora in would keep your unarmed strike damage up/speed bonuses up, and you wouldn't need to use kensai levels/ waste feats on combat expertise.

[PraxisVetli]

Yeah, there's no way to confuse using fans as unarmed strike with using fans as claws. Unarmed strike and claws have nothing to do with each other and there isn't any way to get them mixed up.



I don't know what you mean by that. Pouncing is something you do when you charge, so again this sentence doesn't make sense. Could you try parsing your words out logically before posting them? Just typing as a stream of consciousness makes you very difficult to understand.

i was hoping pounce was related to jumping, not charging
my error.
also, there's a feat somewhere where you can use you claws as unarmed strikes, since their natural weapons. Half Dragon Monks can do it. So if the fans count as unarmed and the claws count as unarmed, dont fans count as claws?
Associative property?

[PraxisVetli]

i was hoping pounce was related to jumping, not charging
my error.
also, there's a feat somewhere where you can use you claws as unarmed strikes, since their natural weapons. Half Dragon Monks can do it. So if the fans count as unarmed and the claws count as unarmed, dont fans count as claws?
Associative property?

I gotta head out, i shall return

[Nightraiderx]

I would say no for that, although I did notice that Beast strike is a fighter feat, if you dip into warblade, you can change unarmed strike to your fans and deal fan + claw damage. But it doesn't work in reverse so you couldn't pounce with the fans unless you dip into swordsage, barbarian or psywar.

[Curmudgeon]

Spring Attack would be mostly irrelevant, since it takes a full round action.
Your memory may be playing tricks on you, because that's not right; it's an attack action inside a split move action, not a full-round action.

From the Special Edition Player's Handbook 3.5:

SPRING ATTACK

When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can't use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack. This was "stealth errata" in the leather-bound Special Edition PH. (I've been told it's also in the new Premium PH.) It certainly makes the operation of Spring Attack much clearer than in the original text.

Anyway, there's simply no way to combine a Charge (a special full-round action) with Spring Attack (move action + attack action); they're just incompatible action types. If you have a way of getting an extra move action in a round you could use that plus a full attack action for Spring Attack, but again it's completely at odds with the action requirement for charging.

[Nightraiderx]

Wait, if he gets something like travel devotion he can still use spring attack with an attack action? I didn't know full-round attacks were still considered attack actions. This would save on the "spring attack" line if you used knowledge devotion or the psionic power hustle.

[PraxisVetli]

Wait, if he gets something like travel devotion he can still use spring attack with an attack action? I didn't know full-round attacks were still considered attack actions. This would save on the "spring attack" line if you used knowledge devotion or the psionic power hustle.
so now we need an extra move action? so much complication.
It really seems like this isn't going to work. Which is fine, I don't mind conceding defeat.
Is it safe to bring up a completely seperate idea, or should I just start a new thread for that?

[Curmudgeon]

Wait, if he gets something like travel devotion he can still use spring attack with an attack action? How did you get that idea? Spring Attack only works when you split a move action around an attack action. A swift action doesn't help at all.
I didn't know full-round attacks were still considered attack actions.
The term "attack action" is used, but never defined, in the D&D game. It could be any of the following:

standard action attack
full attack action (the only option which uses that exact phrase)
attack of opportunity
bonus attack, such as afforded by Improved Trip
Only the first two of these are possibilities for Spring Attack, of course.

[Nightraiderx]

Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm)

It may have a swift action activate but it grants an additional move action. Therefore you can use hustle as the split move action and the attack action to perform a full attack.

@Praxis don't give up on me yet, I'm going to try my best to fix your build.
You'll be changing Kensai levels into psiwar levels, you'll want more psi war levels because you won't need that many monk levels for flurry of blows.

You won't pounce, but you will be able to full attack, twf moving in and out, you won't need anything past spring attack.

Soulbound Weapon Alt. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

Scroll down a bit and under psywar you'll have the soulbound weapon thing.

Since you'll be using your swifts to grant an extra move action, you should invest in scout levels (up to 4) and get the feat for a better skirmish ability. That should keep her damage up.

[olentu]

Wait, if he gets something like travel devotion he can still use spring attack with an attack action? I didn't know full-round attacks were still considered attack actions. This would save on the "spring attack" line if you used knowledge devotion or the psionic power hustle.

Whether the full attack action could be considered an attack action is probably not so important with regards to spring attack, since I expect most DMs will not chose the full attack action to be the attack action (at least with regards to spring attack). That would mean that spring attack could only ever be used with a full attack, making the feat unusable for most characters.

[Nightraiderx]

It's a shame when the book uses a term and then never truly defines it.

[Darrin]

Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm)

It may have a swift action activate but it grants an additional move action. Therefore you can use hustle as the split move action and the attack action to perform a full attack.

@Praxis don't give up on me yet, I'm going to try my best to fix your build.
You'll be changing Kensai levels into psiwar levels, you'll want more psi war levels because you won't need that many monk levels for flurry of blows.


Ardent 2 with the Freedom Mantle is a bit more efficient. However, Mantled PsyWar 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) should also work, and gets an bonus feat as well.

It might be possible to put everything together, but it would be extremely convoluted and require an extremely flexible DM:

1) Swift action, activate hustle to move into melee range. You will need a fast enough land speed to leave yourself at least 30' of extra movement.
2) Full round attack. Presumably, you could also use Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz here.
3) Using Spring Attack, continue your movement by making a vertical jump to the square 10' above your opponent's head. You'll need at least 15' extra movement, and probably Leap of the Heavens or Leaping Dragon Stance to make the jump check, which is DC 60.
4) Battle Jump turns your 10' drop into a charge, Pounce turns it into a full attack.
5) You'll need to resolve falling damage for yourself and falling object damage on your target, and then determine if you land on your feet or are knocked prone (using the catfall power or the Landing armor property solves most of this for you). The rules don't really cover this, but assuming both you and the target are medium sized, due to the stacking rules both of you can't be in the same square unless one of you is prone. It's probably best to treat this as some sort of overrun attempt (while politely ignoring the rules that require a standard action and forbid an overrun as part of a charge attack), so make a Str check opposed by your target's Str or Dex check to determine who gets knocked prone. There may be an AoO in there as well (for entering your target's square), but Spring Attack might ixnay that.
6) If you knock your opponent prone, if you're standing on your feet, if you still have movement left from your original hustle move, and if your DM hasn't strangled you yet, you could try to finish your original move, but it's not clear if Spring Attack still works after the whole Battle Jump business. Move at least 15' away, and you'll be 10' away from your opponent when he stands back up (which in most cases restricts him to a standard attack, so moving to 10' away may be somewhat moot.)

[Nightraiderx]

Maybe it would be easier to use jump with the swift action port that ardent gets first level? could you use that as you use the spring attack feat, fall directly above the person, trigger your pounce and land and continue the rest of your movement?

[Person_Man]

Ways to get Pounce and Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

[Darrin]

Maybe it would be easier to use jump with the swift action port that ardent gets first level? could you use that as you use the spring attack feat, fall directly above the person, trigger your pounce and land and continue the rest of your movement?

Yes, swift-action teleports (or even move- and standard-action teleports) work just fine for this if you've got Battle Jump or Shadow Pounce (along with a permissive DM that allows such things), but they won't work with Spring Attack, which requires a Move Action.

Getting hustle to work may be somewhat complicated, but the simplest solution is really: "Don't use Spring Attack. It's just not worth it."

[Urpriest]

i was hoping pounce was related to jumping, not charging
my error.
also, there's a feat somewhere where you can use you claws as unarmed strikes, since their natural weapons. Half Dragon Monks can do it. So if the fans count as unarmed and the claws count as unarmed, dont fans count as claws?
Associative property?

Don't assume we know about anything from Quintessential Monk. It's third-party, and not especially well-known.

That said, it depends entirely on the wording of the abilities involved.

[Vedhin]

Charge as a move action?! Mantis Leap from Sword & Fist lets you make a Jump check (as whatever action that normally is, specifically move), and if you get high enough (really easy, read the feat to see why), you can make a charge that deal normal + Str mod x2 damage.
It does require 7 Monk levels, though.

[Curmudgeon]

Charge as a move action?! Mantis Leap from Sword & Fist lets you make a Jump check (as whatever action that normally is, specifically move), and if you get high enough (really easy, read the feat to see why), you can make a charge that deal normal + Str mod x2 damage.
Height rarely has anything to do with Mantis Leap.
Designate an opponent who is within the maximum distance you can reach with a successful Jump check. Jump checks come in only a few standard forms. A High Jump only goes vertically, with zero horizontal component; unless they're hovering directly above you, that's probably useless. A Long Jump is much more likely to be called for with this feat.

[Vedhin]

Height rarely has anything to do with Mantis Leap. Jump checks come in only a few standard forms. A High Jump only goes vertically, with zero horizontal component; unless they're hovering directly above you, that's probably useless. A Long Jump is much more likely to be called for with this feat.

I meant a high enough result on the Jump check.

[Darrin]

Height rarely has anything to do with Mantis Leap. Jump checks come in only a few standard forms. A High Jump only goes vertically, with zero horizontal component; unless they're hovering directly above you, that's probably useless. A Long Jump is much more likely to be called for with this feat.

Distance does not specify horizontal or vertical. Also, distance = 0 is still a completely valid value for distance and still within the "maximum distance" (unless we want to get into Set Theory). Your opponent could be standing in the square directly in front of you, and by RAW you could jump 1' high and still meet the requirements for Mantis Leap.