The Goblin phalanx, shield wall and your PC's

[TheDarkSaint]

Are you tired of your 1st level PC's mowing through your goblins like a runner through trail mix? Want to change things up, give them a challenge and force them to start to think? I used this recently and it was a HOOT! I thought I would share.

Take your base goblin. None too bright, easy to kill and an irritant as a mook. A pack of them starts to get dangerous, but PC's who are experienced can quickly divide and conquer. If your group is larger than the standard 4, this becomes an even bigger problem and they sneeze on the little guys, which promptly die. This gets boring after a while.

After mulling over the situation one night after seeing my 6 PC's chew through 12 goblins like a hungry man on a steak, I decided I would try something different.

I gave the next batch of goblins they were to encounter a level in Fighter. This opened up lots of feats to choose from. I wanted something where they could work together.

That's when I stumbled across 3 little beauties. Phalanx Fighting, Shield Specialization (heavy) and Shield Wall. I gave each of the 4 who were to be on the front line these Feats, outfitted them in Hide armor with a heavy wooden shield and when they were all lined up, BAM! 24 AC. On a goblin.

This threw my very traditional players for a complete loop. The fighters simply walked forward and tried rolling to hit while the others just stood behind and used the Assist Others action on the fighters.

The party had to beat a hasty retreat after getting nickled and dimed to death by goblin maces. It took them sitting down and rethinking how they went about things, using tumble to outflank, bull rushing, overrunning and other maneuvers that were needed since the phalanx was slow.

Although the little guys get a 24 AC, there are some real weaknesses built into the formation that can be exploited. Initiative is a problem. If the phalanx wants to stay together, they usually have to use the lowest initiative to go. They can only have light weapons, so a goblin mace only does 1d4. It also has to stay together to be effective, so pushing the goblins around can disrupt the formation. I found it very effective to have my players look beyond the 'to hit' roll and start thinking about placement and tactics.

When they leveled up, they hit another phalanx, only this one had support crossbowmen, pike goblins and a sorcerer goblin. That was a nightmare for them and they again had to reinvent tactics to deal with long range, magical and readied action attacks. I had players tell me how much fun it was to not have to worry about could they hit it, but how they were going to disrupt everything.

When they level again, they maybe facing a hobgoblin shield wall, which will be harder to push around. I figure I'll give them some heavier armor as well.

I found it's a fun tactic to throw at 1-3 level characters to may be in a rut. take it or leave it, we had a blast :)

[Skrobo]

A couple of thoughts in rapid fire, since I am working:

Keep in mind that giving PC class levels on your monsters increase their challenge rating. While a GM will rarely raise the CR high enough to cause a problem, you have to ask yourself if you really want to be generating goblins with levels, for your CR 5 random encounters, and not some other monster that a) gets the job done, b) requires less work from you, and c) keeps the players more interested in the game and their character abilities due to diversity.

Secondly, I cannot say that I agree with the way you play the gobos. They are portrayed as brutes and savages for a reason. It would be hard for them to organise and train as much as required for them to be able to field tactics such as shield wall and readied actions against spellcasters. This, of course, is not something that cannot be explained. It's more of a personal way of looking at things.

Lastly, goblins with mundane levels are still goblins. No matter if you have them 2 levels in fighter and extra equipment, their attack would still be in the range of +4 for 1d4 points of damage, making them not dangerous even if the melee the wizard. Next time use Orcs*.


*Caution, Orcs cause TPKs as low levels.

[Fyermind]

This is a great set of ideas for making humanoids more threatening. Goblins are described as breaking ranks easily and being easily intimidated. If I was going to use this I'd have them working for a boss (Say a Bugbear Bard with a whip using inspire courage and dragonfire inspiration to make them credible melee threats) and they would break ranks and lose most of their bonuses if the boss fell. Of course with them surrounding the boss, and the boss using his whip for disarm/trip attacks, this could be a little easier said than done.

This tactic works great for dwarves, Hobgoblins, and Humans and is completely within fluff.

I used Goblin Fighter 1 with 2 flaws (-6 initiative and -2 ranged) to pick up phalanx fighting, shield wall, swarmfighting, and Dauntless (for 5 bonus HP). I then had back rank goblins take Master of Poisons, Constant Guardian, Point Blank Shot, and Grenadier. The back rank goblins had -2 melee instead of -2 ranged. They fought with flasks of acid and poisons. The leader of the unit was a Blue Shaper who was using his powers to make the weapons they used. The result was a very challenging encounter to a level 4 party. The goblins in scale mail armor with heavy steel shields had AC of 25, that could be boosted by the support troops behind them. The support troops had an attack bonus of +7 bonus to hit with a ranged touch attack for 1d6+3 damage with splash of 2 these were coated with drow knockout poison so a target of a direct hit had to save against being knocked out as well. The front liners had an attack of +3 with a bonus of up to +3 more from swarmfighting and dealt 1d4 points of damage with their short swords.

A single unit of 8 front liners and 4 support troops lead by a Blue Shaper Psion 3 was an excellent final battle for a party of 5 level 4 characters.

[Burlap]

I believe something I've done before is similar - you should look up the swarmfighting feat (races of faerun, I believe) and the feat from unapproachable east that increases weapon reach with spears. I used halflings with longspears, I think. Packed with four in a square, a single character could be attacked by 36, if I remember correctly.

[dantiesilva]

Wait people don't use the phalanx fighting, shield wall, shield specialization tactic mixed with swarmfighting? I thought everyone did. I know I always do, especially for my town guards, well besides the swarmfighting for them.

[Segev]

This shield wall is begging for one good Sleep or Color Spray. >_>

[QuintonBeck]

I came up with this very similar (what I believed beautiful) plan to throw at my players while some Monks they had been bested by a couple levels back bounced in and beat on them some. The Sorceror spiderclimbed a building and started casting grease under my tanks, things fell apart rather quickly for me then.

[Blackhawk748]

Ive done this before, and i honestly only have the goblins break if their numbers drop fast, otherwise they get kinda cocky lol

[CaladanMoonblad]

Great way to force the spellcasters to expend AoE spells like Fireball and Burning Hands.

I also agree with the assessment about playing a goblin to their description. Goblins are chaotic-evil like 90% of the time, and do not use organized warfare. This would be like having the Roman Legionairres abandon their military training to start charging like highlanders from Scotland. It's completely out of character for them.

That's a problem with most optimizations... it makes no sense and the suspension of disbelief is taxed beyond imagining (like the character with 13 templates).

[Blackhawk748]

actually goblins are neutral evil 90% of the time, they arent any dumber than your average human (the have Int 10) and yes they usually fight in a disorganized mob, but if they have a good leader they can be terrifying, i speak from experience.

I once played a human Sorcerer who took over a goblin tribe. It was easy, i charmed a guard and asked to see their chief, then i told him i was in charge, he disagreed, then i gave him my rebuttal, a Sudden Maximized Scorching ray to the face. Well he died and nobody else wanted to argue with me so i took over.

I moved them out of the cave they were in and moved into the hills farther north, forcing out a gnoll tribe from the cave complex they were in. I had a few ranks in Knowledge History, so my DM ruled that i could train them in basic military tactics, so i did.

Ill put it this way, after i proved to them that they werent inferior and they won a few times they became a terror to behold. I wound up having a pretty decent sized barony by the end.

Honestly give goblins a goal and a half way competent leader and they can do basic tactics like this.

[dantiesilva]

Playing any race stupid because moives depict them as such is not wise. Look at LotR. They are smart enough to form ranks but as has been said if they start falling they break rank and run if that leader falls. They do have goblin empires after all.

[TheDarkSaint]

From the SRD: Goblins have a poor grasp of strategy and are cowardly by nature, tending to flee the field if a battle turns against them. With proper supervision, though, they can implement reasonably complex plans, and in such circumstances their numbers can be a deadly advantage.

This was fairly easy to circumvent as I gave one of the hobgoblin NPC's in the dungeon a level in Marshal. He acted as their 'motivator' and would send squads out. As soon as the PC's were able to break up the phalanx, the goblins would usually cut and run, or be cut down by over zealous PC's

[Slipperychicken]

Do Kobolds by default have the discipline to use a phalanx? I recall some fluff about the clan being all-important to them, and they're as smart as humans, so it ought to work. Obviously, humans themselves could absolutely use such a tactic.

As for reach weapons, consider that 15ft exotic polearm from Dragon Magazine. As I recall, it's supposed to model long classical polearms like the ones Greeks used. Bigger threat area in massed units means more attacks on a given square.

You could rip off the "Spanish square", using crossbowmen and casters in the middle of a formation of spearmen to mutual benefit (spears stab in melee, ranged fires at everything else). Maybe the crossbowmen also have bayonets (more likely just daggers) in case someone gets through the spears.

Another thing which throws dnd for a loop by messing with some basic assumptions is mounted archery. The way it works means that 99% of the time, a mounted archer can make full attacks while moving and staying outside melee, assuming they aren't in a dungeon. Such a tactic requires almost no feats to use, and can ruin even high CR melee monsters which are often reliant on enemies rushing to melee them in close quarters (the Teratomorph is one such example).

[TheDarkSaint]

Slipperychicken, I would say 'yes' to Kobolds being able to use a phalanx. I would think anything with a 8-10 Int could reasonably use it and kobolds tend to work together anyway.

I used goblins mostly because that is what the module called for and that it builds in some inherently weaknesses for my PC's to exploit. Bull rush is really effective because of the goblin's low strength. The next time they encountered a phalanx, one of my players did an Overrun move. He was very proud he had gone back to the PHB and looked some stuff up. My players were very excited to try even new basic moves out on the phalanx without having to worry about a medium sized hoard of hobgoblins tearing them to shreds with larger weapons.


Great way to force the spellcasters to expend AoE spells like Fireball and Burning Hands.

This was absolutely critical. I knew one of my sorcerers had taken burning hands, an unoptimal spell at best when fighting normal goblin tactics. When he finally stopped casting magic missile and sprayed down a bunch of tightly packed goblins, he was terribly proud of himself. I knew he had that spell and wanted to give him a chance to use it.

[Saintheart]

I've said these before, but just in addition:

- Got a problem with enemy spellcasters? Thunderstone volley. The caster might beat the first DC 13 check, but will he beat 6-9 of the things chucked at him? Especially if your goblins only have to hit the square he's standing in at AC 5?

- Got a problem with chargers? Tanglefoot Bag. Only requires a ranged touch attack. Ten foot range increment, sure, but it's pretty solid stuff for low levels: no saving throw to a -2 to AC, Initiative, and Reflex, -2 to attack rolls, half speed, and can't run or charge.

For other ideas on big-unit tactics, check out How To Rock The Phalanx (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4963). Some of the stuff in there could be easily tapped into a big bunch of goblins, particularly Commander Auras or Teamwork Benefits.

[Azoth]

Gotta admit I like the Phalanx tactics. Though, personally, I am more of a fan of using terrain/ambushes as a DM. Always fun to watch the party tie up with what it thinks are the main forces, only to be ambushed from their flank by some mean grenadiers hurling out AoE one shot items, or that they have been led into a patch of bad terrian and are now boxed in for the main attack force with little chance out.

The looks on their faces when they realize they have been slaughtering and wasting resources killing nothing more than slaves armed with throw away gear is priceless.

[TheDarkSaint]

Azoth, Saintheart, I like the way you two think.

[Segev]

I'm actually in a campaign where we're dealing with goblins. They've been increasing raids in an area, and hints are that it will spread as their foraging needs become greater and they exhaust the outpost towns they're currently attacking. I've posited a couple of methods of trying to take over, but the DM has hinted strongly that doing so would count as "evil," and we have a CG barbarian. :(

While I am not going to argue over alignment interpretations (as the DM and the barbarian player are going for a very "traditional" feel, wherein goblins are evil and so killing them all and taking their stuff is just fine when preventing their continued rapacity), it's a little sad not to be able to use more creative means than "take them all out" without causing problems for others in the party.

[Slipperychicken]

I've posited a couple of methods of trying to take over, but the DM has hinted strongly that doing so would count as "evil," and we have a CG barbarian. :(

Check if the barbarian will actually go along with it. Maybe you can sell it as the current leaders being too weak to stop them, and only the PCs are equipped to set up a lasting defense against the raiders.

If the existing government can't pony up the troops to drive some Goblins out, they don't have much business ruling the place anyway.

[ArcturusV]

A similar goblin tactic you can run, and which does make sense for the more "Savage" neutral evil Gobbos compared to Hobgoblins and their martial pride and affinity, is to run with Outriders. It's another thing that I find standard players have Issues with.

So your typical Gobbo Outrider encounter for 6 PCs would feature something like 10 Goblin Riders, give them a Riding Dog to use as their savage mounts. Give them Bolas and/or Nets, a couple of javelins, and a short sword.

Now you have a fight that can be highly mobile, with hit and run tactics. With Nets and Bolas you have some disables without resorting to magic that most players just won't expect to see coming. "What do you mean that Goblin tripped me from 50 feet away?!" Use say, three javelins per rider. One is used on the second pass, one is used as a parting shot, other is an opportunity use.

So your fight would look like this: Round 1, the Goblins use their Bolas and/or Nets to temporarily disable as many party members as they can on an oblique approach. Round 2, they wheel around, and use Javelins to soften up party members who have not been incapacitated. Round 3, they charge those still standing. Gobbos who are slow on initiative will use their second javelin to spike someone who's weak rather than charge. Round 4, they run out of their, throwing their second/last javelin at anyone who is trying to chase. Round 5? End of combat most likely.

Goblins using tactics like that to mostly piss off, weaken, and harass players as they try to tromp through Goblin territory will be oddly effective. At least at the levels of 1-3 like you listed. It's also SOP for Goblins, so players shouldn't be complaining too much when it happens. Goblins riding wolves/dogs? Par for the course. Resist the urge to have the Goblins stick around and fight it out if the battle looks like it's favoring them. Players will stand back up, escape from nets, etc. And Goblins just aren't built to slug it out with humans/elves/dwarves and they know it. It's more about sapping their resources and willpower, making it so successive attacks (After going back to camp, getting new javelins/nets, or tagging out with the next Outrider team) can be even more successful.

Also this sort of tactic REALLY screws with players who either A) Did not invest in a mount, or B) Neglected ranged weaponry which happens far too often in my experience.

[Blackhawk748]

Another thing which throws dnd for a loop by messing with some basic assumptions is mounted archery. The way it works means that 99% of the time, a mounted archer can make full attacks while moving and staying outside melee, assuming they aren't in a dungeon. Such a tactic requires almost no feats to use, and can ruin even high CR melee monsters which are often reliant on enemies rushing to melee them in close quarters (the Teratomorph is one such example).

Honestly im AMAZED more people dont play mounted archers, i mean in Medieval times there wasnt a hard counter to them like everyone else had. Heavy Infantry beat Light Infantry, Cavalry beats Foot, Polearms beat Cavalry, Crossbows beat Heavy Infantry. What beats Mounted Cavalry? Not much other than other archers.

Now lets throw some fantasy onto this. Mounted Flying Archers. That looks like an I-freakin-win button to me

[Palanan]

I really like the OP's approach here, and I've used those same feats on human foot-soldiers to good effect. The shield-wall is a potent formation, and I think TheDarkSaint did a great job of using it in an unexpected way.

Also:


Originally Posted by Skrobo
...I cannot say that I agree with the way you play the gobos. They are portrayed as brutes and savages for a reason.

Where is it written that an entire species has to always use the same tactics, no matter where or when they are?

As several others have pointed out, goblins aren't really outside the range of human intelligence, and it's not hard to imagine that at some point, one or another group would develop these sorts of tactics--especially if they've had contact with any other race that fights with a modicum of intelligence.

And really, the fact that goblins are "supposed to be" cowardly only reinforces the likelihood that somewhere, somehow, they'll work out a way to compensate for being individually small and weak.


Originally Posted by CaladanMoonblade
That's a problem with most optimizations... it makes no sense and the suspension of disbelief is taxed beyond imagining (like the character with 13 templates).

I actually agree with this sentiment in general, but in this case I'm not too worried about goblins that are trained in a particular style of fighting. These aren't goblin ninjas dipped in cheese; they're just a little further out on the curve of aggressive goblindom.

To me, it looks like TheDarkSaint ran a session that was fun and challenging, one that the players (and the PCs) won't soon forget. That, to me, sounds like a well-run encounter, and a great gaming session overall.

[Blackhawk748]

I actually agree with this sentiment in general, but in this case I'm not too worried about goblins that are trained in a particular style of fighting. These aren't goblin ninjas dipped in cheese; they're just a little further out on the curve of aggressive goblindom.

To me, it looks like TheDarkSaint ran a session that was fun and challenging, one that the players (and the PCs) won't soon forget. That, to me, sounds like a well-run encounter, and a great gaming session overall.

I agree, i mean goblins already do ambushes, have outriders, hell they even make decent traps. I see no reason why a half way capable goblin chief couldnt train them in phalanx fighting. I think most of the reason goblins fight in mobs is because the cief is to lazy to train them lol