Advice on Refluffing Summoning Spells for a New Cosmology

[Amaril]

Hey everybody :smallsmile: So, I'm working on a setting for Pathfinder right now that takes a lot of inspiration from the Cthulhu mythos, with a pretty radically different cosmology than the one supported in the core Pathfinder rules. One result of this is that there are no Celestial or Infernal planes for spellcasters to summon monsters from, which leaves me with a dilemma--what to do with summoning spells for this setting? So far, the solution I'm leaning towards is that rather than summoning Celestial or Fiendish creatures from other planes, spells like Summon Monster create spectral monsters out of magical energy that can then be controlled by the caster--in rules terms, this would be a simple matter of changing the subtypes of all creatures summoned by these spells to something like "spectral" with no alignment that otherwise uses the same stats. Elemental creatures could remain pretty much the same, except that rather than summoning, say, a Water Elemental from the Plane of Water, a wizard could just be forming water in their surroundings into a creature that obeys their wishes and fights their enemies.

However, this isn't a perfect solution, since at high levels, pretty much everything that can be summoned with Summon Monster in particular is some type of demon, devil or celestial rather than just a Fiendish or Celestial version of a normal animal, and since those creatures don't exist in this setting (in myth or in fact), it doesn't really seem plausible that spellcasters would create versions of them with summoning spells. Additionally, it would mean some pretty significant edits to spells like Gate whose flavor is dependent on the existence of other planes--I could just prohibit those spells for this setting, but then I run the risk of alienating the significant number of players who probably really like those spells.

So I have two questions. First, what approach would you recommend to reflavoring or reworking summoning spells so that they fit with different cosmologies; and second, is it bad world design to ban certain spells that don't fit with the setting's established cosmology?

[Thunderfist12]

Banning spells isn't a bad thing sometimes: always keep that in mind.

But what I would do for the higher levels is actually create stats for a spectral counterpart for each fiend and its respective celestial, for purposes of summoning, and perhaps eliminate gate and other such spells completely.

But, most importantly: you said a different cosmology. Are you using only the material plane, two material planes, or what?

[Amaril]

Material plane, plus a Great Empty Void where all the eldritch monstrosities come from--there will be rules for summoning those based on the Alienist prestige class from Complete Arcane, which I'm converting to Pathfinder because it's a great fit for this setting. There might be other planes too, but they're unconfirmed and inaccessible.

[gr8artist]

If you're going for a Cthulian setting, be wary of letting your players get their hands on exotic/eldritch abilities. Extra planar creatures are a lot more terrifying when they're under your control than under your players'. Let your cultists and wizards summon all the creatures you want, but remove them from the players' spell lists. After all, summons are one of the main reasons the casters are overpowered. Taking that away should make everything more interesting.

[AttilaTheGeek]

If you're going for a Cthulian setting, be wary of letting your players get their hands on exotic/eldritch abilities. Extra planar creatures are a lot more terrifying when they're under your control than under your players'. Let your cultists and wizards summon all the creatures you want, but remove them from the players' spell lists. After all, summons are one of the main reasons the casters are overpowered. Taking that away should make everything more interesting.

Seconded. Eldritch aberrations are not nearly as terrifying when you can summon one for yourself, poke and prod at it until you find its weakness, and then practice killing it a dozen times.

[Thunderfist12]

Ok, what I would do now that I know the cosmology:

1) Refluff the summoning and planar travel, meaning allow gate and change astral projection to void projection.

2) Save the eldritch summoning for NPC's, but let PC's summon elementals.

3) Change the focus of clerics from undead to abberrations, making them against them (turn eldritch horror).

4) You may want to get rid of paladins: a courageous warrior with divine channeling and an ability to fight abberrations (if it was adapted) is too potent against the enemies. I'd suggest replacing them with a cultist class, which should be similar to cleric, but have more on binding abberrations than fighting them.

5) What technology level is the setting, anyways?

[Amaril]

Ok, what I would do now that I know the cosmology:

1) Refluff the summoning and planar travel, meaning allow gate and change astral projection to void projection.

2) Save the eldritch summoning for NPC's, but let PC's summon elementals.

3) Change the focus of clerics from undead to abberrations, making them against them (turn eldritch horror).

4) You may want to get rid of paladins: a courageous warrior with divine channeling and an ability to fight abberrations (if it was adapted) is too potent against the enemies. I'd suggest replacing them with a cultist class, which should be similar to cleric, but have more on binding abberrations than fighting them.

5) What technology level is the setting, anyways?

1) My plan exactly--I'm condensing spells like Ethereal Jaunt and Astral Projection into one spell that sends you into the Void. Teleportation is refluffed as entering the void and taking advantage of its weird relationship with time and space to cross distances instantly.

2) I will, of course, have enemy cultists summoning cosmic horrors for the PCs to fight. The only PCs who can do the same are, as I mentioned, members of the Alienist prestige class (which is basically a cultist), and it'll be a really, really dangerous thing for them to do, since they'll have to roll all kinds of checks and take tons of precautions to even have a chance of keeping what they summon under control. Also, I'm betting few PCs will take that prestige class, since it'll just mean they go insane that much faster.

3) Clerics will have abilities relating to both--there are still undead in this setting (they have them in the Call of Cthulhu RPG, so I don't think they're out of place here). However, it'll be more high-level clerics who can do stuff like banishing eldritch horrors back to the void, and that'll just be with vanilla spells like Banishment rather than class features.

4) I've been wondering about that, actually. The way I imagined Paladins in this world is as specially trained templars whose job it is to hunt down cultists and protect the world from eldritch monstrosities, without so much of the Lawful Good knight-in-shining-armor flavor, since there's no alignment in this world. As it is, I was planning on changing their Detect Evil to something like Detect Corruption for sniffing out the taint of the Void, or maybe just general Detect Magic, and slightly altering their Smite Evil (including the name), but otherwise keeping them pretty much as-is. Do you think that's a bad idea here? Either way, I'm not planning on having a Cultist class or anything comparable--cultists in this world are pretty much just Wizards and Sorcerers with levels in Alienist.

5) It's that weird fantasy High Medieval tech level that seems to bug all the history buffs--steel is fairly common, plate armor exists but is really rare and expensive, no gunpowder yet in the known world. Pretty much just what you'd expect in vanilla D&D.

[Thunderfist12]

Your paladin fix is a good idea. It's basically what I was thinking of a fix, if you had to use it.

Here's what I was thinking, but you can completely disregard it if you want.

1) Detect Eldritch Horror, not Detect Evil.

2) Smite Eldritch Horror, not Smite Evil.

3) Turn Eldritch Horror, not Turn Undead.

4) No Aura of Good.

5) Change the spell list to deal with the Eldritch Horrors (circle of protection against evil is now circle of eldritch warding, etc.).

Again, it's only what I was thinking.

[Amaril]

Your paladin fix is a good idea. It's basically what I was thinking of a fix, if you had to use it.

Here's what I was thinking, but you can completely disregard it if you want.

1) Detect Eldritch Horror, not Detect Evil.

2) Smite Eldritch Horror, not Smite Evil.

3) Turn Eldritch Horror, not Turn Undead.

4) No Aura of Good.

5) Change the spell list to deal with the Eldritch Horrors (circle of protection against evil is now circle of eldritch warding, etc.).

Again, it's only what I was thinking.

Good ideas, all of them :smallsmile: That was pretty much my plan, though I might go with slightly different names (considering the Paladin also has to fight arcane spellcasters and their undead minions, not just the cosmic abominations themselves).

[Thunderfist12]

By the way - have you decided on the divinities yet? I'd like a list/description of deities, if there are any...

[Amaril]

By the way - have you decided on the divinities yet? I'd like a list/description of deities, if there are any...

I don't have anything that detailed written up, but I can give you a brief summary...

The planet is orbited by six moons, each linked to one of the six gods of the world. Mortals attach great significance to the positions of the moons at certain times of the year and the month, and the arrangement of the moons at the time of a person's birth is said to have a powerful effect on who they will grow up to be. Temple Oracles study the patterns of the lunar zodiac to predict future events, and Druids rely on power from the moons to call on their lycanthropic shapeshifting abilities. The six gods are acknowledged and revered by the entire known world (except for the sea-dwelling Sahuagin, who worship the Others from the great Void beyond), but the details of their worship vary greatly from place to place, since the gods do not communicate with their followers or tell them what to do.

The six gods, the color of their associated moons, and their totem animals are:

Kane, the god of war and the hunt, whose moon is blood red and whose totem animal is the wolf;

Idra, the god of wisdom and knowledge, whose moon is silver and whose totem animal is the raven;

Shamesh, the goddess of luck and trickery, whose moon is gold and whose totem animal is the cat;

Toth, the god of the earth, death and rebirth, whose moon is verdant green and whose totem animal is the serpent;

Nissa, the goddess of the sea, whose moon is aqua blue-green and whose totem animal is the shark;

And Rokkur, the goddess of the sky, leadership and travel, whose moon is royal blue and whose totem animal is the eagle.

[Thunderfist12]

Awesome. I haven't gotten my Pathfinder books yet, so I'm only familiar with some domains. I play 3.5, actually. So I guess my attempt at assigning domains would have been useless. If all of these domains are still in Pathfinder, I'm insanely lucky.

Kane: Animal, Moon, Strength, War

Idra: Knowledge, Magic, Moon, Wisdom

Shamesh: Luck, Moon, Trickery

Toth: Death, Earth, Life, Moon

Nissa: Destruction, Moon, Water

Rokkur: Air, Moon, Travel

The Others: Destruction, Madness, Summoning

Here you go: domains at the ready (since there's no alignments).

[Amaril]

Awesome. I haven't gotten my Pathfinder books yet, so I'm only familiar with some domains. I play 3.5, actually. So I guess my attempt at assigning domains would have been useless. If all of these domains are still in Pathfinder, I'm insanely lucky.

Kane: Animal, Moon, Strength, War

Idra: Knowledge, Magic, Moon, Wisdom

Shamesh: Luck, Moon, Trickery

Toth: Death, Earth, Life, Moon

Nissa: Destruction, Moon, Water

Rokkur: Air, Moon, Travel

The Others: Destruction, Madness, Summoning

Here you go: domains at the ready (since there's no alignments).

You're actually pretty close for some of those (although the Others aren't an option for divine characters--if you worship them, you'll be an arcane caster). Here are their domains in Pathfinder.

Kane: War, Strength, Glory, Protection, Destruction
Idra: Knowledge, Law, Healing, Magic, Artifice
Shamesh: Trickery, Liberation, Charm, Luck, Chaos
Toth: Earth, Animal, Plant, Death, Community
Nissa: Water, Animal, Destruction, Healing, Travel
Rokkur: Air, Weather, Glory, Protection, Travel

[Thunderfist12]

Yeah, I thought Moon was a Pathfinder domain. Must be from the Spell Compendium instead. Ayways, a little pet peeve of mine: if you have one specific deity of a certain domain (Travel, Sun, etc), I tend to spaz out when another deity takes his/her domain. It kind of makes the deity's portfolio less important (ie, why worship the sun god when you could worship the god of stars and flame?). I'm just saying.

Also, about the Others: you need not be a cleric or druid to get domains.

Arcane Disciple (General)
You channel your religious power through arcane magic.
Prerequisites: Arcane caster.
Benefit: You gain access to one of the domains of your deity or religion, and can cast an additional spell of each level (must be a domain spell). You know all domain spells for all arcane class lists.
Special: This can be taken a total of twice, but it only grants extra spells once, and only to a selected class (ie, bard, sorcerer, or wizard).
A wizard may take this feat as one of his wizard bonus feats.

I took the concept from Complete Divine, but changed some details to make it work better.

[Amaril]

Yeah, I thought Moon was a Pathfinder domain. Must be from the Spell Compendium instead. Ayways, a little pet peeve of mine: if you have one specific deity of a certain domain (Travel, Sun, etc), I tend to spaz out when another deity takes his/her domain. It kind of makes the deity's portfolio less important (ie, why worship the sun god when you could worship the god of stars and flame?). I'm just saying.

Also, about the Others: you need not be a cleric or druid to get domains.

Arcane Disciple (General)
You channel your religious power through arcane magic.
Prerequisites: Arcane caster.
Benefit: You gain access to one of the domains of your deity or religion, and can cast an additional spell of each level (must be a domain spell). You know all domain spells for all arcane class lists.
Special: This can be taken a total of twice, but it only grants extra spells once, and only to a selected class (ie, bard, sorcerer, or wizard).
A wizard may take this feat as one of his wizard bonus feats.

I took the concept from Complete Divine, but changed some details to make it work better.

Hmm...that's a cool feat--I'd planned on only directly supporting core rulebook material plus the Oracle class, but ya never know :smallsmile:

I don't really mind shared domains, but I think even for people who do, the gods in my pantheon are all different enough from each other that even if you have, say, one Cleric of Kane and one of Rokkur who both have the Protection domain, they'll still be really different from each other. Mostly it was because I came up with the concept for each god and then assigned whatever domains seemed most appropriate, rather than creating gods based on the domains I wanted them to have, so there was bound to be some overlap (especially considering I wanted to give each one more domains than usual, to compensate for a smaller pantheon).

[Thunderfist12]

I wasn't trying to complain about the overlap. But that aside, I've thought of another branch feat should you decide to use the other one, and I changed it from Mystic Theurge levels to Alienist levels for campaign purposes.

Arcane Cultist (General)
You are obsessive in your religion, and can channel its power even stronger than before.
Prerequisites: Arcane Disciple, Alienist level 1.
Benefit: You radiate an aura as though you were a cleric of your religion, and you are now treated as a divine caster for the effects of qualifying for prestige classes, items, and feats. You also gain an additional domain spell slot for each level in the same class you chose for Arcane Disciple.
Special: A wizard may take this feat as one of his wizard bonus feats.

And there are many more feats where that came from.