[3.5] Metamind's Font of Power, Synchronicity, Infinite PP, and My Nerfbat

[Phelix-Mu]

Hi All,

I'm playing an epic monk/wizard in a friend's campaign. Going pretty well. Then I picked up an epic cohort shaper/constructor/thrallherd/metamind. I suddenly remembered why I spent so much time auto-nerfing my character's build; full manifesters are very strong!

So, it's not really applicable for my friend's campaign, but for my own usage in campaigns that I run, I want psionics to be a functional, balanced, flavorful alternative to the other forms of casting.

In pursuit of this lofty ideal, I will probably need to find a way to stop Font of Power/synchronicity from working as described. It doesn't take Einstein to figure out that there is an nigh-infinite/infinite action loop here, and even being most useful out of combat, I think it's pretty much too useful.

What are your opinions? If you wanted to limit the interaction, how would you do it? Am I overreacting? I could well be, my experience playing and DMing psionic characters is limited, but this recent cohort build has me wondering how big the Pandora's Box of Font of Power is.

And just from a game design standpoint: really? An special class feature that grants unlimited manifesting for one minute? How does that sound balanced? Rule of Cool in action?

[Segev]

Eh...

Depending on how your DM runs games, this is one combat you get to nearly auto-win, sure. But it's 1/day, and outside of that, you're a manifester that's 5 ML behind in any real terms.

2 encounters, separated by as little as 5 min, and you're "fine."

Of course, that again depends on the DM and the game. If you don't HAVE more than one encounter a day...yeah. Need to do something about it. Psionics are "broken" when you have only one encounter/day anyway, because they nova very well.

[Psyren]

Font of Power actually isn't that bad. Even used to recharge cognizance crystals or recharge other manifesters, 10 rounds per day (indivisible) of unlimited manifesting doesn't amount to much without an action engine of some kind.

Even using the fixed Metamind from PF (that only loses 3 ML instead of 5, and loses zero PP), Font of Power is not broken.

Which brings me to the real problem here, Synchronicity. Basically, to fix it, you should make sure it never grants more standard actions than you put into it; that's all there is to it. The purpose of the power is to let you ready actions without following the much more restrictive Ready rules - adhere to that and it stays good without being broken. In the same vein, it shouldn't be possible to reduce it below a standard action either - Quickening and Linking it to another power shouldn't be allowed to work.

[Phelix-Mu]

Font of Power actually isn't that bad. Even used to recharge cognizance crystals or recharge other manifesters, 10 rounds per day (indivisible) of unlimited manifesting doesn't amount to much without an action engine of some kind.

Even using the fixed Metamind from PF (that only loses 3 ML instead of 5, and loses zero PP), Font of Power is not broken.

Which brings me to the real problem here, Synchronicity. Basically, to fix it, you should make sure it never grants more standard actions than you put into it; that's all there is to it. The purpose of the power is to let you ready actions without following the much more restrictive Ready rules - adhere to that and it stays good without being broken. In the same vein, it shouldn't be possible to reduce it below a standard action either - Quickening and Linking it to another power shouldn't be allowed to work.

I guess all the problems I noticed really are more to do with synchronicity, and, of course, epic levels. Twinned Linked synchronicity right there seems like it's gonna spit out perpetual actions until PP is consumed.

So you [Psyren] would just add language to synchronicity stating that it can't be used in ways x, y, z, with an eye to excluding compounding actions?

My main issue with Font of Power was actually utility out-of-combat, especially in downtime. If a psion cranks up his action economy, ten rounds of ML in PP (and possibly much more) is a lot of free power points. While psionics is limited out-of-combat, I can still see some problems with psiotheurgy and the like being used.

I guess it's all high-level op, and this is probably not the big-bad rules exploit of high-level op.

[Segev]

Pshaw. Next thing you'll tell me is that sharing it with your psicrystal is right out! ;)

[Psyren]

I guess all the problems I noticed really are more to do with synchronicity, and, of course, epic levels. Twinned Linked synchronicity right there seems like it's gonna spit out perpetual actions until PP is consumed.

So you [Psyren] would just add language to synchronicity stating that it can't be used in ways x, y, z, with an eye to excluding compounding actions?

My main issue with Font of Power was actually utility out-of-combat, especially in downtime. If a psion cranks up his action economy, ten rounds of ML in PP (and possibly much more) is a lot of free power points. While psionics is limited out-of-combat, I can still see some problems with psiotheurgy and the like being used.

I guess it's all high-level op, and this is probably not the big-bad rules exploit of high-level op.

The fact that DSP left it alone (and hell, even buffed Metamind!) when they went to the trouble of closing so many other psionics loopholes/expoits should speak volumes. Those guys definitely know what they're doing, and the simple fact is that FoP is not broken, just cool and useful.

Out of combat, what do you really get out of it? Sure you can fire off a bunch of buffs or summons in the morning, all extended/maximized/etc, but FoP doesn't change the fact that you're limited by your ML on each manifestation - so piling on metapsionics will still weaken anything that needs to be augmented, which most psionic buffs do.

Unlimited healing? Sure you can heal to full every night before bed, but that doesn't change the fact that you still have to live long enough to get to bedtime until then.

Recharge all your cognizance crystals? This is a great use for it, but since you are limited to one source per manifestation, even the deepest well in the world won't be as useful in practice as it sounds.


No, as you rightfully noticed, the real problem here is Synchronicity. A simple, blanket "this power can not be combined with any metapsionic feat" will solve 90% of your problems right there.

As I said before, Synchronicity is intended to help you break free of the Ready rules. Normally to ready an action, you need to know:
1) What you plan to do;
2) The trigger that will cause you to do it;

Otherwise, the attempt fails. Base Synchronicity removes (1), and augmented Synchronicity removes (2).

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, specifically, the cohort was going to use it to stockpile large amounts of quintessence during downtime. As written, synchronicity is pretty much "Hey, over here, extra actions!" I think quintessence itself is poorly worded, such that ways to use it do unintended things are pretty obvious, and discussed at length elsewhere.

Very large amounts of quintessence would be quite useful for storing limited duration effects (provided that the DM rules that it works that way).

EDIT: As to buffing metamind, I agree, the PrC needs it. As written, it's only useful for a high-level build that already has the capstone, and some condition where FoP is quite useful (like a shaper pumping out lots of astral constructs during down time, and chucking them in quintessence for later use). Not user-friendly until epic levels, when the rules pretty much implode anyway.

[Psyren]

I don't see the Quintessence being a problem either, unless he's planning to dump it on a dragon's head and crush him to death or something. Magical effects on players, not items, are the danger, and anybody stored in a bag of quintessence isn't taking any actions anyway.

[Segev]

An interesting question might revolve around whether one can store rays and the like by shooting them "through" a glob of quintessence, and then scraping it away on the far end to "release" them from their timeless state.

I don't think it would actually work, mind you, but it's an amusing thought nonetheless.

[Phelix-Mu]

An interesting question might revolve around whether one can store rays and the like by shooting them "through" a glob of quintessence, and then scraping it away on the far end to "release" them from their timeless state.

I don't think it would actually work, mind you, but it's an amusing thought nonetheless.

Or dunking an entire wall of energy into quintessence. Yeah, poorly written time-manipulating abilities are a big no-no in my conceptual "100 Ways to Mess Up Your RPG."

[Psyren]

RAW, Quintessence only stores objects and creatures. Energy, powers and other such intangibles are neither, so I don't think you have anything to worry about.


Objects sealed within quintessence are protected from the effects of time; in practical terms, they enter a state of stasis.
...
Quintessence can be manually scraped away from a protected object, freeing it to rejoin the time stream.
...
Large quantities of quintessence could theoretically be gathered to preserve large items or structures (or even a complete living creature; if completely immersed, a living creature would not take the damage associated with partial contact).

[Segev]

Ah! Here we go: Quintessence-soaked Astral Constructs!

[Psyren]

Yes, you could store an Astral Construct in Quintessence; that doesn't seem like a big deal to me however, even if you could scrape it all off him in one round.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, you could store an Astral Construct in Quintessence; that doesn't seem like a big deal to me however, even if you could scrape it all off him in one round.

How do you normally interpret "scrape it off?" Action type? Time needed? Can I just sandblast it off them with a crystalswarm or something? Totally vague action is totally vague.

[Segev]

Technically, you'd just need to get a decent amount exposed. "Partial exposure" would start a countdown timer 'til it took damage, but it doesn't say partially exposed creatures are partially unable to act.

Really, you're right, it's not THAT bad. Just kind-of amusing. I honestly can't think of too many ways to use it that would be genuinely broken, and also guaranteed to work without a highly cooperative DM.

[Phelix-Mu]

Seems like the manifester could keep themselves continuously coated in the stuff (except for eyes and hands, perhaps), and use it as a subtle way to assassinate people. Pass by them in the market, rub some of the quintessence off on them somewhere not immediately obvious, and a minute later the person starts to die, no save, no SR. Sounds more reliable than poison.

[Segev]

That wouldn't work so well. It explicitly feels very cold (so the person knows the stuff's on them and can probably find it to scrape it off), and it does hp damage (1/round, starting 10 rounds after partial exposure begins), not "suddenly, you're dead!"

Even the typical commoner would notice it before the timer was out, and would have roughly 3 rounds after that to get it scraped off before he was truly unable to help himself anymore.

[Phelix-Mu]

That wouldn't work so well. It explicitly feels very cold (so the person knows the stuff's on them and can probably find it to scrape it off), and it does hp damage (1/round, starting 10 rounds after partial exposure begins), not "suddenly, you're dead!"

Even the typical commoner would notice it before the timer was out, and would have roughly 3 rounds after that to get it scraped off before he was truly unable to help himself anymore.

Put it in the middle of their back on a cold day? That all seems pretty situational drawback. Clearly, even without the cold bit, they'd be taking damage, so they'd know something was up. Works best with a secondary diversion that the person would assume was the problem. Like suddenly tripping and landing in a large puddle.

[Psyren]

Seems like the manifester could keep themselves continuously coated in the stuff (except for eyes and hands, perhaps), and use it as a subtle way to assassinate people. Pass by them in the market, rub some of the quintessence off on them somewhere not immediately obvious, and a minute later the person starts to die, no save, no SR. Sounds more reliable than poison.

Unless you make a living assassinating half-dead naked commoners, this doesn't seem very practical to me. You're also assuming they can't simply figure out what's wrong and remove the stuff. Furthermore, you'd have to rub up against them 4 times on average to get it to stick without evaporating once it leaves you.

[Rubik]

Unless you make a living assassinating half-dead naked commoners, this doesn't seem very practical to me. You're also assuming they can't simply figure out what's wrong and remove the stuff. Furthermore, you'd have to rub up against them 4 times on average to get it to stick without evaporating once it leaves you.Sexual Harassment Panda is sad.

[Phelix-Mu]

Unless you make a living assassinating half-dead naked commoners, this doesn't seem very practical to me. You're also assuming they can't simply figure out what's wrong and remove the stuff. Furthermore, you'd have to rub up against them 4 times on average to get it to stick without evaporating once it leaves you.

Hmm. Am I missing part of the mechanic? Oh, right, well, I was looking at the bit about "the manifester is immune to this effect," which could be interpreted to mean that you don't have to spread it on the caster the same way as other people.

I'm not saying it's super-sexy or exploitable, but an interesting delay-kill mechanic. Combine it with some pretty basic illusions and a handshake, and it might work on people that aren't particularly clever or familiar with magic.

Or creatures that don't know how to "scrape" (though that is so poorly described that it could be anything).

[Psyren]

Hmm. Am I missing part of the mechanic? Oh, right, well, I was looking at the bit about "the manifester is immune to this effect," which could be interpreted to mean that you don't have to spread it on the caster the same way as other people.

The caster is immune to the partial contact damage. But if you scrape it off anything (including the caster/his clothes) it has a 75% chance of evaporating on the spot. Hence, 4 rubs.



I'm not saying it's super-sexy or exploitable, but an interesting delay-kill mechanic.

Your idea of interesting is itself interesting :smalltongue:

[Segev]

Personally, I'm more interested in the question of what one could preserve that could be interesting.

Obviously, the most "interesting" uses are likely with things that are not "meant" to be kept in a given state for prolonged periods/until desired, but which aren't needed continuously.

[Phelix-Mu]

The caster is immune to the partial contact damage. But if you scrape it off anything (including the caster/his clothes) it has a 75% chance of evaporating on the spot. Hence, 4 rubs.

Hmm. So the user would have to carry it around before spreading it. Sounds like something covered by Sleight of Hand.

1 damage/round, no duration, no save, no SR, even given the countdown time, sensory clues, and easy removal. Sounds like it could be useful. And, in any case, it's a pretty cheap investment for a 9th level shaper to get a small quantity of it (or for anyone else to buy it from said shaper).

Hmm. Maybe a suspension of green slime and quintessence....

I just like playing with weird ideas.:smallamused:

[Darth Stabber]

Now I have an idea: quintessence pool trap. Get a big pool of quintessence with a big trap door over the top, trespasser falls through, no way to extricate themselves. Just make sure that the pool is more than 5' to prevent the anti-psionics effect from giving it away. Actually you probably want more fall distance than that to ensure complete immersion upon impact. The question becomes how far down does the victim go? As soon as they hit full immersion time stop, so are they going to stop as soon as the last bit of them is covered, or does momemtum carry them further down even as they are removed from time.

Either way punji stick pit with poison tipped punji sticks is child's play by comparison (I use that trap too much anyway), the victim gets a saving throw and everything

[Sith_Happens]

Obviously, the most "interesting" uses are likely with things that are not "meant" to be kept in a given state for prolonged periods/until desired, but which aren't needed continuously.

1. Build particle accelerator.
2. Get quintessence.
3. ???
4. Profit.

[Psyren]

The question becomes how far down does the victim go? As soon as they hit full immersion time stop, so are they going to stop as soon as the last bit of them is covered, or does momemtum carry them further down even as they are removed from time.

Well, we know how dense the stuff is - a 1-inch diameter dollop weighs 1 oz. Someone willing to do the math would be able to find out if a human body could sink in it or not.

[TuggyNE]

Well, we know how dense the stuff is - a 1-inch diameter dollop weighs 1 oz. Someone willing to do the math would be able to find out if a human body could sink in it or not.


Volume of a 1" dollop, roughly spherical: 4/3πr2 ~8.58 cm3
Mass of 1" dollop: 1 oz = ~28.35 g
Density: 28.35/8.58 = ~3.3 g/cm3

Since water is defined as 1 g/cm3, and since humans can float in water, you can very easily float in quintessence, assuming I got the math right.

[Spuddles]

TuggyNE ...:smallconfused:

[Darth Stabber]

Well, we know how dense the stuff is - a 1-inch diameter dollop weighs 1 oz. Someone willing to do the math would be able to find out if a human body could sink in it or not.

Edit: swordsaged.

Getting on object submerged via a drop would require more description as surface tension and viscosity become significant factors. Once it's submerged one would assume that a body would stay at roughly the same depth of cover, since it's frozen in time, thus negating floating as a factor.

[TuggyNE]

TuggyNE ...:smallconfused:

Yes? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15662250) What about it?

[Spuddles]

Yes? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15662250) What about it?

I'm just so used to Tuggyne, and now everything is different....:smalleek:

[TuggyNE]

I'm just so used to Tuggyne, and now everything is different....:smalleek:

It's like your whole life is a lie? :smalltongue: (Also, it used to be all-lowercase.)