Sneak Attack/Warlock?

[metalith]

I need help with trying to streamline a proof of concept.

Trying to combine Sneak Attack and Eldritch Blast into a truly nasty combination of effects. Primarily working on using Eldritch Claws but willing to work with an Eldritch Glaive build.

The only build limitations I have all 3.5 and Dragon Magazine. No Online material and if you take a Prestige class you have to take all levels in it :( Also since I have seen people talk about it before Warlock only counts for Caster level for prestige classes but not for spells.

StrongHeart Halfing CN

Rogue 1 / Wizard 1 / Warlock 2 / Binder 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Unseen Seer 10 / Eldritch Theurge 2

Sneak Attack - 5d6
Eldritch Blast - 7d6
Hellfire Blast - 6d6

Effective Wizard 5 (2 levels from Unseen Seer)
Effective Warlock 15

(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(B) Carmendine Monk
(F) Weapon Finesse
(F) *open*
(3) *open*
(6) Eldritch Claws
(9) *open*
(12) Superior Unarmed Strike
(15) *open*
(18) *open*

[BowStreetRunner]

I'm not sure 100% certain why you taking the level of binder. Care to elaborate?

[JBarca]

I'm not sure 100% certain why you taking the level of binder. Care to elaborate?

Probably binding Naberius to offset the Con penalty.

[Arundel]

I'm not sure 100% certain why you taking the level of binder. Care to elaborate?

To bind the vestige that regenerates CON damage. All the power of hellfire, none of the drawbacks.

[metalith]

Yes. It allow me to reg Con damage to use Hellfire without issue.

[Stux]

Mortalbane?

5 times per day per SLA your SLAs do 2d6 extra damage against mortal targets. You can take the feat multiple times giving you an extra 5 uses for each SLA per day.

[metalith]

Okay can add Mortalbane. Any people's opinion on the build itself?

[Barsoom]

It doesn't seem to be legal. Hellfire Warlock has a steep entry requirements, and I don't see you meeting them.

[Malroth]

if hellfire warlock is taken after 4 unseen seer levels he could

[Barsoom]

But then I don't see how he can take Unseen Seer after Rogue 1 / Wizard 1 / Warlock 2 / Binder 1. It requires 8 ranks of Spot, which is not a class skill for some of those classes.

[Phelix-Mu]

Craven sounds appropriate for that build. Also, a dragon magz feat called Beast Strike. It let's you combine your unarmed strike damage and claw/slam damage when making unarmed strikes. Downside is that I think it requires you to make iteratives.

[CRtwenty]

But then I don't see how he can take Unseen Seer after Rogue 1 / Wizard 1 / Warlock 2 / Binder 1. It requires 8 ranks of Spot, which is not a class skill for some of those classes.

It's a class skill for some of them, so his skill cap will always be Level + 3. He might have to spend an extra skill point at times for the levels in classes where Spot is cross class, but as long as his Int is reasonable that shouldn't be a problem.

[Barsoom]

I see. But it requires a lot more than 'reasonable' Int. Let's do the math.

Required: Sense Motive 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Spot 8 ranks, Search 8 ranks.

On level 1, as Rogue, he can have 4 ranks in Sense Motive (so that part is done), Search, Spot, Hide, and 2 ranks (cc) in Spellcraft.

Now, he has to add a rank to Search, Spot, Hide on every level in order not to miss the goal of 8 ranks by level 5. And he also has to get the missing 2 Spellcraft ranks at some point. Which is a total of 3 cross class skill ranks (6 skill points) each level, plus one class skill (1 skill point) at some levels. So at some levels, he will have to put in 7 skill points, and alas, all his classes after the Rogue are 2+Int. So Int 20 is in fact required for a non-human.

Let me know if my math is off...


EDIT: he also had the limitation of "if you take a prestige class you have to take all levels in it", which I guess means no PrC hopping - you start Unseen Seer, you take all 10 levels before jumping into Hellfire Warlock.

[Kane0]

Why not arcane trickster, assuming your DM allows Warlock to qualify/progress?
Seems fitting for the character concept.

Rogue 3 / Warlock 3 / Binder 1 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Arcane Trickster 10 or something?

[Balthanon]

Warlock doesn't typically qualify you for prerequisites of being able to cast a spell of a specific level (such as the third level spell in arcane trickster). It can qualify you for specific spells or caster level, that's about it. Though honestly, I'd probably allow it. I'm not a big fan of the crappy skills the class gets though.

Given the number of feats open, Assassin's Stance (Martial Study + Martial Stance) might be worth picking up for an extra 2d6 sneak attack. Better than Mortalbane in my opinion.

If your DM is willing to adapt prestige classes a little, Daggerspell Mage might actually be an interesting choice where you're focusing upon claws rather than daggers.

[Kane0]

Warlock doesn't typically qualify you for prerequisites of being able to cast a spell of a specific level (such as the third level spell in arcane trickster). It can qualify you for specific spells or caster level, that's about it. Though honestly, I'd probably allow it.

Damn, I suppose i just had a lenient DM in that case.

[Balthanon]

It doesn't require much leniency-- it's not overpowered or anything typically. Warlocks have far fewer options than typical casters and can stand to have their options increased a bit.

[morkendi]

I did a scout warlock before with improved skirmish, wild talent, forgot the name of feat that let's you gain focus as a move action, psyonic shot, improved psy shot, and so on. Been a while, but did some pretty good damage. It was a range build though.

[metalith]

Understood but the DM is strict in some very certain way, such as Warlocks do not meet spell requirements the reason why Wizard was put into the build.

Another of them being no PrC dipping and maxing out PrCs before moving to another one. Would make the build easier to drop HellFire in the middle of Unseen Seer progression.

I was already pondering Assassin's Stance but granted through the item Shadow Hands (Novice) which should grant me the Assassin's Stance as a Maneuver without the feat cost. Especially since I was going to use many of the unarmed strike enhancing items on this build. ie Belt, Tattoo etc and then Eldritch Blast enhancing items as well.

Okay here is a revised

Human CN

Rogue 1 / Wizard 1 / Warlock 2 / Binder 1 / Unseen Seer 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Eldritch Theurge 2

Sneak Attack - 5d6
Eldritch Blast - 7d6
Hellfire Blast - 6d6

Effective Wizard 5 (2 levels from Unseen Seer)
Effective Warlock 15

(1) Improved Unarmed Strike
(B) Carmendine Monk
(F) Weapon Finesse
(F) Able Learner
(3) Craven
(6) Eldritch Claws
(9) Beast Strike
(12) Superior Unarmed Strike
(15) *open*
(18) *open*

[metalith]

Question for Sneak Attack experts as well, do melee touch attacks grant Sneak Attack when not in a flanking position, was pondering using Wraithstrike in this build. Since I will be able to use 2nd level wizard spells.

[Barsoom]

Rogue 1 / Wizard 1 / Warlock 2 / Binder 1 / Unseen Seer 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Eldritch Theurge 2 Check your skill points allocation level-by-level. I'm pretty sure you can't qualify into Unseen Seer.

[Phelix-Mu]

I believe you can deal SA damage on a touch attack, provided the touch attack deliver a damaging effect of some kind. The relevant rules are in the start of the chapter of Complete Arcane with all the feats.

I see you are picking up wizard. Martial Wizard variant can trade Scribe Scroll for a bonus fighter feat, which may pick you up Weapon Finesse (though maybe not by the level you are taking it...). Checking again, I believe Weapon Finesse require +1 BAB (worst pre-req evah), and I don't think you have that at level 1 anyway.

You may also want to look into an ACF to let you trade away your familiar, since it isn't going to be of much use in this build (excepting maybe a raven and some UMD wanding). There are several useful ACFs that you can exchange for familiar. Not sure any of them are particularly applicable to this build.

How exactly are you using Carmendine Monk? Have you somehow gotten around the alignment restriction? I know of the usual use of the feat, but I imagine it's not the use you are putting it to. Kung-Fu Genius is the normal method for getting around the alignment component of Carmendine Monk, but you lose the bonus to effective monk level.

[metalith]

With a 14 Int and Able Learner can meet skill requirements at 5th level and begin at 6th.

[metalith]

A raven would me nice since it could use UMD to put Divine Power on me. Can see about fixing the order of the feats to put Weapon Finesse in a better area.

Carmendine Monk has no alignment restriction only an RP one member of the order and Int 13+ requirement.

I could switch out Kung-Fu Genius did not know about that feat. Yes I loose 2 effective monk levels or I can put them together since I still have 2 open feat slots.

[Phelix-Mu]

A raven would me nice since it could use UMD to put Divine Power on me. Can see about fixing the order of the feats to put Weapon Finesse in a better area.

Carmendine Monk has no alignment restriction only an RP one member of the order and Int 13+ requirement.

I could switch out Kung-Fu Genius did not know about that feat. Yes I loose 2 effective monk levels or I can put them together since I still have 2 open feat slots.

See if your raven can give you access to blood wind spell (Spell Compendium). I seem to recall that it works with unarmed strikes. If you can get a wand of it, it allows melee natural/unarmed attacks to work at range. The duration is just one round, but it can give a big tactical advantage to nuke someone with your melee attacks from range while in a hiding place (within 30' if you want to trigger sneak attack).

If you don't want a raven, the strongest tactical option is probably the ridiculously silly Immediate Magic alternate class feature from PHB2. It requires that you be a specialist wizard (and therefor ban two schools of magic), and the ideal (and by some measures, only) option worth taking in this ACF is Abrupt Jaunt, which allows an immediate action 10' teleport a number of times per day equal to Int Modifier. You have to be careful, cause immediate action jaunting eats swift actions, but it can be used to avoid incoming attacks, and is available from the first level you take wizard. Very strong tactical option.

You are right about Carmendine Monk. You do have to be a member of a monk order, but that is, as you say, largely a role play thing. Kind of tricky, since you aren't a monk, but if your DM buys it, that's all that counts.

[Balthanon]

I was already pondering Assassin's Stance but granted through the item Shadow Hands (Novice) which should grant me the Assassin's Stance as a Maneuver without the feat cost. Especially since I was going to use many of the unarmed strike enhancing items on this build. ie Belt, Tattoo etc and then Eldritch Blast enhancing items as well.

The maneuver granting items don't actually allow stances. They also don't let you automatically bypass the requirements for a maneuver (so you would need at least Martial Study if your DM allows the gloves.)

[nedz]

Effective Wizard 5 (2 levels from Unseen Seer)

I didn't think that you could mix and match the spellcasting bumps from Unseen Seer ? The wording may be ambiguous though so YMMV.

Also: Consider Beguiler instead of Wizard. More skill points, Trapfinding (so you can swap your Rogue Trapfinding via an ACF), though you do lose a feat.

[Telonius]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Carmendine only actually does something if you have levels in Monk. It lets you use Intelligence instead of wisdom for your Monk AC bonus. If you don't have a Monk AC bonus, it would only affect Stunning Fist DC if you happen to have the Stunning Fist feat independently. (I'd suggest checking with your DM first if you're planning to use a Monk's Belt to get around the requirement).

[Phelix-Mu]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Carmendine only actually does something if you have levels in Monk. It lets you use Intelligence instead of wisdom for your Monk AC bonus. If you don't have a Monk AC bonus, it would only affect Stunning Fist DC if you happen to have the Stunning Fist feat independently. (I'd suggest checking with your DM first if you're planning to use a Monk's Belt to get around the requirement).

Yeah, that seems to be the plan, from what I'd deciphered. Sketchy enough to be worth checking with the DM first, for sure.

The whole idea involves the Superior Unarmed Strike thing of getting an unarmed strike damage progression. Not a terrible idea, just not sure it works.

[Balthanon]

A raven would me nice since it could use UMD to put Divine Power on me. Can see about fixing the order of the feats to put Weapon Finesse in a better area.


Use Magic Device doesn't allow you to bypass spell targeting and your raven doesn't have the share spells feature with you, you have it with the raven. So this won't work.


Question for Sneak Attack experts as well, do melee touch attacks grant Sneak Attack when not in a flanking position, was pondering using Wraithstrike in this build. Since I will be able to use 2nd level wizard spells.

Melee touch attacks are subject to all the normal rules for sneak attack-- you need to be either flanking or the opponent must be denied their Dex bonus against your attacks.

Also, on another note-- if your DM is going off of the FAQ, the various monk level boosting/unarmed strike boosting objects don't stack. So Superior Unarmed Strike, a monk's belt, the talon relic in Magic Item Compendium etc... just allow you to take the best of the bonuses.

[Phelix-Mu]

Also, on another note-- if your DM is going off of the FAQ, the various monk level boosting/unarmed strike boosting objects don't stack. So Superior Unarmed Strike, a monk's belt, the talon relic in Magic Item Compendium etc... just allow you to take the best of the bonuses.

Ouch, a real case of "kick 'em while they're down." Like any of the bonuses that a monk gets over 20 levels is going to rip game balance apart. Fast movement is nifty, but a real sideshow next to spells. And unarmed damage doesn't even get that huge. Ick.

[Balthanon]

Ehh... with size category boosts thrown on top of it (not difficult to find in general), unarmed damage can get completely brutal.

You throw in greater mighty wallop (possibly one of the most broken spells I've run across for enhancing a fighter of any kind) and you'll be throwing down ridiculous quantities of damage with each punch. It won't really matter that you can't bypass damage reduction. :) Even without that though, it's pretty easy to get some fairly sizeable quantities of damage dice.

The thing about monk is that as a 20 level class, it kind of blows-- in increments of 2, 3, or 4? Fairly nice, even with the lost BAB. 2, 3, or 4 and you suddenly have class features as if you're 15th level or so...?

[Phelix-Mu]

Ehh... with size category boosts thrown on top of it (not difficult to find in general), unarmed damage can get completely brutal.

You throw in greater mighty wallop (possibly one of the most broken spells I've run across for enhancing a fighter of any kind) and you'll be throwing down ridiculous quantities of damage with each punch. It won't really matter that you can't bypass damage reduction. :) Even without that though, it's pretty easy to get some fairly sizeable quantities of damage dice.

The thing about monk is that as a 20 level class, it kind of blows-- in increments of 2, 3, or 4? Fairly nice, even with the lost BAB. 2, 3, or 4 and you suddenly have class features as if you're 15th level or so...?

Greater mighty wallop isn't a monk class feature, and is broken in all kinds of situations for all kinds of classes and builds. Monks do benefit is a special way from size increases/effective size increases, but, again, at low-levels the monk's main issue is hitting and surviving hits; damage is secondary to actually hitting. The AC bonus boost from the stacking items is nice, but it basically amounts to medium armour, even after considerable stacking.

Higher level monks get over the hitting issue, but other stuff becomes an issue, too. There's just no single item or series of stacking bonuses that will turn straight monk into an unbalanced powerhouse.

Stacking items can make monk dipping remarkably more lucrative, though, which, I suspect, is what prompted the FAQ ruling.

Anyway, it's hardly the end of the world if they don't stack, as greater mighty wallop a fanged ring are both better than the monk level boosters.

[skunk3]

suggestions:

1. Item Familiar ACF / Abrupt Jaunt ACF are both nice but I'd go with Item Familiar since Warlocks eventually get "Flee The Scene" as an invocation which isn't the same but good enough.
2. Have you considered Eldritch Theurge as a PrC? (edit: I see you have 2 levels of it shown)
3. Rods of Eldritch power for shapes and essences. They start off fairly inexpensive but more powerful ones are pricey, but it saves on invocation 'slots.' Hideous Shot is definitely one worth getting.

Personally, I'd forego Unseen Seer. If I were doing a build like this, it'd be more like:

Warlock 4 / Wizard 3 / Eldritch Theurge 10 / Hellfire Warlock 3

Sure, there's no levels of rogue in there - BUT! You could play it just like a rogue. You wouldn't get any sneak attack or certain rogue class features / skills (which can just be largely replicated with spells / items anyway...) You would have 17 effective levels of Warlock, which is lots of invocations (including access to dark) and with the Extra Invocation feat you can pick up even more invocations, which I highly recommend. You'd also effectively be a 13th level Wizard, which would get you up to 7th level casting and you could memorize spells that accentuate sneaky, roguish ways. The Hellfire Warlock side of things boosts your damage, but more importantly it makes magic items that you use much better via Hellfire Infusion and a you get a shield to boot. By that point you could have Eldritch Chain + Vitriolic Blast and be hitting a bunch of people on every turn with no SR. Also you could combine Hellfire Blast with it if you really wanted to up the damage, but you'd have to keep that CON damage in mind. (A wand combined with staying out of harm's way would go a long way.)

I think that dual progression PrC's are awesome. Also, Baleful Utterance (a least invocation) is super handy sometimes. ;)

Alternatively, I think that some sort of rogue / warlock / shadowdancer build would be fun and thematically cool.