Bags of holding and portable holes

[D20ragon]

I'm making a list of the many uses of bags of holding/portable holes:pit trap with portable hole underneath.when someone falls in,you Pick the hole up,and voila!red dragon(or whatever) in your hand!
Stuff someone into a bag of holding,then stab it.what ever is in the bag is destroyed.you could also do this with Evil Artifacts.
A (10 min)hiding place.
Robbing a dragon blind.(the horde stealer can turn anything into a bag of holding.the image of some halfling pulling a treasure chest out of his mouth is awesome.)
Making an astral vortex grenade.stuff a portable hole into a bag of holding,and bam!
A portable hole with a bottle of air in it make a good abduction device/summoning without spell casting(open the hanky and out comes the ooze).Any more ideas?

[Lightlawbliss]

one of my normal group's favorite uses we call "party in a bag". The scout has the entire party on site with no loss of stealth, And the mental image is great.

another fun one is load the bag up with rocks/chunks of metal/similar as much as you can, then have someone with a fly speed fly high above something you want to kill and BAM. That has resulted in some MASSIVE damage to start a fight (and sometimes end it). 1000 lbs falling from hundreds of feet up is rather fun.

[D20ragon]

That's awesome.

[Volcan]

You could hold weapons in your head (with a portable hole) to impress people.
Or hide the bodies of your victims.

[D20ragon]

Good point.what happens if you put a portable hole on someone?

[JaronK]

I'm a fan of building an entire tower to live in with an Enveloping Pit. It's a great place to store a spellbook, too.

JaronK

[Rubik]

Stuff someone into a bag of holding,then stab it.what ever is in the bag is destroyed.you could also do this with Evil Artifacts.Aww, man! This was my plan for getting rid of Zargon's horn in Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial after I sucked out his soul (Zargon's, not Tippy's), but now it's not a surprise anymore.

Sad Rubik is sad.


Any more ideas?Need to kill something with regeneration that cannot be bypassed with damage, but that's all you can do to it? Fill the space with water, knock the critter down into the negatives, and push it in. If it's not immune to drowning, you can drown it to kill it. This is what I would've done to the worm that walks after I knocked it unconscious in a couple of hits. Just Metamorphosis into a gelatinous cube and scoop it into the water-filled enveloping pit, before folding the pit up and pocketing it. Later it was to be used for fishbait.

Hang a mirror of opposition (covered with a blanket) on the side of the pit, then fill it to the brim with quintessence after constructing yourself a pocket just large enough for you and a large bag to fit in (that's free of quintessence, of course) that covers part of the mirror. The rest of the mirror is submerged in the quintessence. Cover the top of the pit with something that blocks Line of Effect, then place all of your party's belongings into a bag, then insert yourself (via teleportation or whatever) into the pocket, carrying the bag with you and uncover the mirror. When your evil clone appears, it (and all of its possessions, including the bag) will immediately come into existence submerged in the quintessence and cut off from the time stream. Take the bag away from it and dump it in a demiplane made of quintessence. Keep the extra stuff. You just doubled your WBL! It's also a good way to duplicate one-of-a-kind items, as well.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, that second trick is quite lovely. I don't think I'd ever use it as described, but the very idea of exploiting the very ambitiously written mirror of opposition, well.... I have but one thing to say:

Bravo.:smallsmile:

[Petrocorus]

I'm a fan of building an entire tower to live in with an Enveloping Pit. It's a great place to store a spellbook, too.

JaronK

Enveloping Pit? What is it?

[Rubik]

Enveloping Pit? What is it?A 50' deep portable hole in the MIC. 3,600 gp, but it has relic restrictions.

Really, the only restriction is that only evil creatures and/or kobolds can open it as a swift (immediate?) action at a distance. Otherwise, I believe anyone can use it.

[Petrocorus]

A 50' deep portable hole in the MIC. 3,600 gp, but it has relic restrictions.

Really, the only restriction is that only evil creatures and/or kobolds can open it as a swift (immediate?) action at a distance. Otherwise, I believe anyone can use it.

That seems wonderful.
I was thinking to put this on a flying carpet, so you can make a flying tower.

[Immabozo]

Can a character get the reverse side of a portable hole grafted to the top of his mouth and/or under the tongue? What about inside the ears? maybe get small ones to wrap each hair on your head in? How about in your nose?

Or, maybe, could a female character graft a bag of holding into... other cavernous bodily... caverns?

[phlidwsn]

A 50' deep portable hole in the MIC. 3,600 gp, but it has relic restrictions.

Really, the only restriction is that only evil creatures and/or kobolds can open it as a swift (immediate?) action at a distance. Otherwise, I believe anyone can use it.

It requires you be within one step of LE to open/close it at all. Atunement to the relic(feat or spell slot) is required for the remote open/close.

Or a reliable way to hit the DC30 to UMD:Emulate Alignment.

[EyethatBinds]

Rather than a grenade you could make it an arrow. But I hate missing with important shots.

http://unicorn.us.com/alex/dnd/superweapon_arrowhead.gif

Also, hiding objects in a bag of holding while in an anti-magic field makes those items impossible to retrieve unless you are again in an anti-magic field. Easiest way to sneak weapons into the king's throne room.

[Immabozo]

Also, hiding objects in a bag of holding while in an anti-magic field makes those items impossible to retrieve unless you are again in an anti-magic field. Easiest way to sneak weapons into the king's throne room.

Where is this from? I would so use this!

[Lapak]

Also, hiding objects in a bag of holding while in an anti-magic field makes those items impossible to retrieve unless you are again in an anti-magic field. Easiest way to sneak weapons into the king's throne room.This is an awesome idea in theory, but in practice I don't know that it's an improvement on a plain old bag of holding if you're dealing with paranoid security. What kind of royal protector would let you into the king's presence with a Bag of Holding in the first place?

Plus the Bag is just nonmagical-bag-sized in the AMF, so fitting the barbarian's greataxe in there is going to be problematic anyway. :smalltongue: Seriously, love the idea but I don't know that it's the easiest (or best) method.

[Lightlawbliss]

something tells me a greataxe wasn't what he had in mind. I'm thinking he had in mind something that wouldn't be obvious or combersome.

[unseenmage]

Have lots of extradimenional spaces but no ability to combine them?
Enter Ring Gates and Planar ring Gates (PlH)!

Put a Planar Ring Gate into the bottom of your Handy Haversack, put it's companion in the bottom of your Portable Hole back home and viola! Instant transmission for your stuff.

Work in a few normal Ring Gates linking your many extradimensional spaces locked in secure vaults back at home base and now you have access to whatever you need whenever you need it.

For added fun (and to avoid embarrassing arm wriggling in front of the monsters) have a tiny minion or familiar reside in your Handy Haversack and telepathically have it fetch items from your Ring Gate system, as soon as the minion brings the item into the Handy Haversack the sack's magic will let you bring it to hand with ease!

[EyethatBinds]

This is an awesome idea in theory, but in practice I don't know that it's an improvement on a plain old bag of holding if you're dealing with paranoid security. What kind of royal protector would let you into the king's presence with a Bag of Holding in the first place?

Plus the Bag is just nonmagical-bag-sized in the AMF, so fitting the barbarian's greataxe in there is going to be problematic anyway. :smalltongue: Seriously, love the idea but I don't know that it's the easiest (or best) method.

This is when the king (or whoever) sits in an anti-magic field at all times to avoid being murdered by people. I've had to slay a few NPCs in such protections. The king's guard would confiscate weapons, search for hidden ones, and then allow you in to the room.

It's also a good way to hide things you'd rather NPCs never discover. It's inaccessible and damn difficult even to realize it would be in there without magic.

[Werephilosopher]

I'm a fan of building an entire tower to live in with an Enveloping Pit. It's a great place to store a spellbook, too.

JaronK

I did this in my last campaign. Since I could fly I wanted to use it as party transport, but my immature party members wanted nothing to do with my "enveloping pit." :smallannoyed:
It was pretty sweet though. 5 stories, including a library, a workshop, and a hookah den.

[Immabozo]

I did this in my last campaign. Since I could fly I wanted to use it as party transport, but my immature party members wanted nothing to do with my "enveloping pit." :smallannoyed:
It was pretty sweet though. 5 stories, including a library, a workshop, and a hookah den.

That would insinuate that non-immature people play D&D :smallbiggrin:

[Mutazoia]

Can a character get the reverse side of a portable hole grafted to the top of his mouth and/or under the tongue? What about inside the ears? maybe get small ones to wrap each hair on your head in? How about in your nose?

Or, maybe, could a female character graft a bag of holding into... other cavernous bodily... caverns?

I suppose you could with Universal Solvent Sovereign glue, but the size of the opening would be limited and thus what you can put in/take out would be limited as well.

[Immabozo]

I suppose you could with Universal Solvent, but the size of the opening would be limited and thus what you can put in/take out would be limited as well.

But you could still do poisons, small daggers, small money bag, drugs (ultimate drug mule!)

[Doc_Pippin]

A favorite of mine was in a desert themed party (A WitW, a Sandshaper, an Asheratii Rogue, and a Ashworm Dragoon (we had since left the desert). Anyway the Rogue carried two bags of holding, one was full of shrunken salt mummies and the other with permanently awakened sand we had a portable living desert in which to activate our various desert based abilities, the same could be applied to aquatic characters in a non-aquatic campaign, use the rings to link the bag of holding to the elemental plane of water for a uber geyser that makes the endless decanter look like a turkey baster.

[Mutazoia]

A favorite of mine was in a desert themed party (A WitW, a Sandshaper, an Asheratii Rogue, and a Ashworm Dragoon (we had since left the desert). Anyway the Rogue carried two bags of holding, one was full of shrunken salt mummies and the other with permanently awakened sand we had a portable living desert in which to activate our various desert based abilities, the same could be applied to aquatic characters in a non-aquatic campaign, use the rings to link the bag of holding to the elemental plane of water for a uber geyser that makes the endless decanter look like a turkey baster.

Why didn't you just have one of the characters carry a giant gourd on his back with the awakened sand inside.....

[Petrocorus]

It was pretty sweet though. 5 stories, including a library, a workshop, and a hookah den.

This is exactly what i was thinking about, a mobile base with everything you need.
Except, maybe... what is a hookah?

[RogueDM]

This is exactly what i was thinking about, a mobile base with everything you need.
Except, maybe... what is a hookah?

A smoking apparatus. Think of the caterpillar from the cartoon Alice in Wonderland. Generally considered cleaner than a pipe since it has (potentially) several layers of filtration. Usually used with Shisha, a sort of flavored tobacco. I'm not a smoker myself, but tried one at a frat party. It wasn't awful.

[Phelix-Mu]

A smoking apparatus. Think of the caterpillar from the cartoon Alice in Wonderland. Generally considered cleaner than a pipe since it has (potentially) several layers of filtration. Usually used with Shisha, a sort of flavored tobacco. I'm not a smoker myself, but tried one at a frat party. It wasn't awful.

I find the smell of that flavored tobacco to be incredible, but I'm not a huge fan of the smoke.

Hookah's are purportedly healthier, as well, because in addition to the somewhat filtered smoke, the smoke entering the lungs has a lower temperature, which could be considered a way to reduce the damage done. I'd bet the actual science behind this is not well-established either way.

Back to the topic at hand, I've personally wondered if you can use ring gates or planar ring gates to connect multiple portable holes or bags of holding. I've looked at the literature and asked around, but since these extradimensional spaces exist in a kind of grey-zone between the same plane and a different plane, it's not clear that either would work. A shame, cause that would sure be cool.

I personally would probably rule that extradimensional spaces constitute bounded spaces, and the openings are just movable portals to said bounded space. Thus, while you couldn't teleport into a closed portable hole, you could certainly wish your way in, and conceivably also plane shift your way in (though that deviation chance in the spell sounds problematic).

Does anyone have a more firm RAW stance on the matter?

[unseenmage]

I find the smell of that flavored tobacco to be incredible, but I'm not a huge fan of the smoke.

Hookah's are purportedly healthier, as well, because in addition to the somewhat filtered smoke, the smoke entering the lungs has a lower temperature, which could be considered a way to reduce the damage done. I'd bet the actual science behind this is not well-established either way.

Back to the topic at hand, I've personally wondered if you can use ring gates or planar ring gates to connect multiple portable holes or bags of holding. I've looked at the literature and asked around, but since these extradimensional spaces exist in a kind of grey-zone between the same plane and a different plane, it's not clear that either would work. A shame, cause that would sure be cool.

I personally would probably rule that extradimensional spaces constitute bounded spaces, and the openings are just movable portals to said bounded space. Thus, while you couldn't teleport into a closed portable hole, you could certainly wish your way in, and conceivably also plane shift your way in (though that deviation chance in the spell sounds problematic).

Does anyone have a more firm RAW stance on the matter?

There are two or three other places in various books that back this up (not surprisingly as this was printed first). I do not recall exactly where but I do know I read them all back to back on another discussion of this topic found with the Google machine.

From the Manual of the Planes page 7,
"Demiplanes: This catch-all category covers all extradimensional
spaces that function like planes but have
measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes
are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be
only a few hundred feet across. Access to demiplanes may
be limited to particular locations (such as a fixed gateway)
or particular situations (such as a time of year or a weather
condition). Some demiplanes are created by spells, some
naturally evolve, and some appear according to the will of
the deities.
Finally, the planes may be connected in different
fashions; not every plane links to another directly. An
example of how the planes fit together is shown below.
The following page has a more detailed drawing showing
the connections of the planes in the D&D cosmology."
Emphasis mine.

From here you use the MotP and Planar Handbook to learn about demiplanes and how they're all just different planes.

Now not long ago someone tried to peddle to me the idea of non-dimensional spaces and how they were somehow different from extradimensional spaces. Not only could I not find any reference to such in either the PlH, MotP, DMG, nor PH, but the person in question failed to produce a source for the idea after I pointed this out. (This statement is not meant as a derision nor insult to whomever that was, just a statement of fact.)

The two niggles about extradimensional spaces are time traits and gravity traits. Do they retain their own? Is their own based on where they were created? Do these traits change based on where you open the extradimensional space? Will it retain the new traits or revert to some static state when closed? Etc Etc.

From the very logical arguments I've read from (IIRC) Brilliant Gamologists and the WotC boards I find that having extradimensional spaces begin with whatever traits the plane they're created on has then adopt, and retain when closed, the traits of other planes they're opened on works best.

Allows you to carry reversed gravity or fast time in your extradimensional space until it's opened again then it adopts the native traits of wherever you are. Keeps players from using Enveloping Pits as Reverse Gravity traps or carrying a weird time trait around indefinitely (Quintessence anyone?)

I hope this helps.

[Phelix-Mu]

Oh, wow. I hadn't even considered the issue with planar traits other than those of the Prime. I'm very hesitant to allow players to move around planar traits; pretty much everything down that road is crazy land of unintended consequences and exploits.

But thanks for the general info. It was Curmudgeon, I think, who first suggested to me that you can't use transport spells to get into extradimensional spaces, but I think his references in the RAW were all from spells that create extradimensional spaces that then are explicitly stated not to be reachable by x or y. I shouldn't paraphrase his argument, I guess, but it was some time ago and not entirely on this exact topic. Take with several grains of salt, basically.

To the issue of non-dimensional spaces, I am seeming to recall that that was a term from 2e. It might have been carried over in the 3.0 as a legacy term, but a recent search of the relevant 3.5 stuff has resulted in a similar conclusion on my part as well; extradimensional is the only term used in the current rules, to the best of my knowledge. Now, sadly, the definition of this term is never well-established, making it almost meaningless. It's "a space beyond dimension," which also doesn't mean much, as dimensions are not well-established in-game either. Bigger on the inside than the outside, I guess.

[unseenmage]

Oh, wow. I hadn't even considered the issue with planar traits other than those of the Prime. I'm very hesitant to allow players to move around planar traits; pretty much everything down that road is crazy land of unintended consequences and exploits.

But thanks for the general info. It was Curmudgeon, I think, who first suggested to me that you can't use transport spells to get into extradimensional spaces, but I think his references in the RAW were all from spells that create extradimensional spaces that then are explicitly stated not to be reachable by x or y. I shouldn't paraphrase his argument, I guess, but it was some time ago and not entirely on this exact topic. Take with several grains of salt, basically.

To the issue of non-dimensional spaces, I am seeming to recall that that was a term from 2e. It might have been carried over in the 3.0 as a legacy term, but a recent search of the relevant 3.5 stuff has resulted in a similar conclusion on my part as well; extradimensional is the only term used in the current rules, to the best of my knowledge. Now, sadly, the definition of this term is never well-established, making it almost meaningless. It's "a space beyond dimension," which also doesn't mean much, as dimensions are not well-established in-game either. Bigger on the inside than the outside, I guess.

The thing that smooths my worries over potential exploits of carry-able planar traits is that in order to catch them in the first place you have to have access to them. So yeah, sure, maybe the players could get a x10 time trait and store it in a bag with their Dedicated Wright. But they had to have access to it in the first place though so the damage has already been done.

Then again, rolling random planar traits for every extradimensional item the players find could either be fun or an exploitable area of the rules. Answering questions about where a given Bag of Holding was last opened could either be a plot hook, or a derailment. It's all in how the DM handles it I'd guess.

As for arguments against travel within/between extradimensional spaces, the Manual of the Planes is 3.0 and, from what I gather, certain posters restrict all of their advice to purely 3.5 material.
I've also read other posters put forth that anything not updated carried over but then you get the discussion about the Planar Handbook being a 3.5 replacement for the Manual of the Planes despite the MotP detailing much more info some (all?) of which was reprinted in the 3.5 DMG instead...

I just use the books that have the info and leave the edition wars to the better informed. :smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

There used to be a spell, deeppockets, I think it was called in 2e. It made a normal container/pocket into a temporary bag of holding. Similar to the Hoardstealer class feature. It would be nifty if the actual item bag of holding were based on a spell that had more detail.

Do you know if deeppockets was reprinted for 3e?

[unseenmage]

There used to be a spell, deeppockets, I think it was called in 2e. It made a normal container/pocket into a temporary bag of holding. Similar to the Hoardstealer class feature. It would be nifty if the actual item bag of holding were based on a spell that had more detail.

Do you know if deeppockets was reprinted for 3e?

Not to my knowledge. But my knowledge admittedly spans just what I'm able to Google at any given moment. I've only played 3.x and 4E and I've only just gotten back into 3.x in the last few months. Sorry.

There's nothing keeping you from researching it as a Custom Spell. 1 week per Spell Level, 1,000gp per Spell Level, and 10+Spell Level Spellcraft check is all it takes. Well, that and your DM's permission of course. Unless you're the DM; in which case go nuts with it. Make a Lesser and Greater version too.

Edit: Could base it on the Familiar Pocket spell from Tome and Blood.

[Phelix-Mu]

I could probably lift fluff text right out of my 2e books (ugh...that will require some digging). It was a pretty nifty spell, since at early levels back then, it was pretty easy to run out of storage space even given possibly having a bag of holding (it's always possible to run out of storage, lol).

On that note, there was also a nifty third party PrC in 3e, called the Packrat. I think it was 3 or 4 levels, and allowed some crazy storage optimization. Surely a niche build, but an awesome concept flavor-wise. *character draws a howitzer out of his backpack* Yeah, I really like that concept.

[unseenmage]

I could probably lift fluff text right out of my 2e books (ugh...that will require some digging). It was a pretty nifty spell, since at early levels back then, it was pretty easy to run out of storage space even given possibly having a bag of holding (it's always possible to run out of storage, lol).

On that note, there was also a nifty third party PrC in 3e, called the Packrat. I think it was 3 or 4 levels, and allowed some crazy storage optimization. Surely a niche build, but an awesome concept flavor-wise. *character draws a howitzer out of his backpack* Yeah, I really like that concept.

In a game I ran once the players found a Colossal + sized statue in a mountain pass. Y'know, it was a giant giant statue. A statue built of epic proportions but by an ancient race of giants.
Anyway, one of the characters took the only intact sword from one of the statues and slid it into his Handy Haversack. But it wouldn't all fit.
The player said, "That's fine, it looks cooler this way.", and proceeded to spend the rest of the campaign with this giant giant sword hilt and partial blade sticking up off his back out of his backpack.

Best extradimensional storage story I have heard so far.

This also reminds me of a homebrew creature I always wanted to build that lives exclusively within extradimensional spaces that are created by spells or items. Kind of a Plane Shift-ing Ethereal Filcher, only more ratlike. (Where's that build a monster thread at. :smallsmile:)

[Lightlawbliss]

Personally, If a player said they want to planeshift into someone's bag, i'd ask them how they plan on getting a tunning fork for it. :smallsmile:

[Rubik]

Personally, If a player said they want to planeshift into someone's bag, i'd ask them how they plan on getting a tunning fork for it. :smallsmile:From my spell component pouch, of course, since such a thing costs 0 gp, so I have as many forks from every plane of existence as I want or need.

[TuggyNE]

From my spell component pouch, of course, since such a thing costs 0 gp, so I have as many forks from every plane of existence as I want or need.

SCPs must ring like a bell foundry every time there's any loud sound nearby, what with all those tuning forks. (Although, since there's probably some artifact somewhere that silences noise nearby, you might not hear it.)

Incidentally, is there a spell that requires a copper piece or some other such minor coin? Trivial WBL exploit #1856, if so.

[Lightlawbliss]

From my spell component pouch, of course, since such a thing costs 0 gp, so I have as many forks from every plane of existence as I want or need.

You must run your campaigns differently Then I or any of my DM's. We all charge for tuning forks (in some cases we charge a lot).

[Rubik]

You must run your campaigns differently Then I or any of my DM's. We all charge for tuning forks (in some cases we charge a lot).That's all fine and dandy for a given campaign, but according the the rules...

[Lightlawbliss]

Focus: A small, forked metal rod. The size
and metal type dictates to which plane of
existence or alternate dimension the spell
sends the affected creatures. Forked rods
keyed to certain planes or dimensions may
be difficult to come by, as decided by the
DM.
emphasis mine

The rarity (aka one of the two variables for the price of something) is given as determined by the dm. At least to me, this indicates a cost which removes it from spell components pouch. IMO: RAW invalidates it from being in the pouch.
(no need to give the "no number in gp is given so it has no value and so it is in the pouch next to the rest of the universe" argument)

[unseenmage]

emphasis mine

The rarity (aka one of the two variables for the price of something) is given as determined by the dm. At least to me, this indicates a cost which removes it from spell components pouch. IMO: RAW invalidates it from being in the pouch.
(no need to give the "no number in gp is given so it has no value and so it is in the pouch next to the rest of the universe" argument)

However, in the text you've quoted the word, "...may...", is specifically used. And to my reading comprehension that does not mean always.

It's also really easy to refluff that you only need one metal tuning fork and that sprinkling it with some fiat powder or another is all that's needed to retune it to a new plane.

Mind you IMHO, my interpretation is also equally as valid thanks to that little word, "...may...".

[Lightlawbliss]

However, in the text you've quoted the word, "...may...", is specifically used. And to my reading comprehension that does not mean always.

It's also really easy to refluff that you only need one metal tuning fork and that sprinkling it with some fiat powder or another is all that's needed to retune it to a new plane.

Mind you IMHO, my interpretation is also equally as valid thanks to that little word, "...may...".

Yes, may was used. I believe I stated twice in that post that I was speaking from my personal interpretation/opinion. everyone's opinion is valid.

However, the component (by RAW) isn't fluff. The RAW state that it is a forked metal rod and both the size and type of metal of the fork determines the target plane. (Technically I should have been saying forked metal rod, not tuning fork, my apologies for that) Altering the material component alters the spell and (minutely) how it functions. While it really doesn't matter if you want to change the component in your game, RAW is what we need to use here unless the OP specifies differently.

edit: I don't see anywhere where you (as the op) have specified any house rules we need to consider so I'm just using pure RAW.

[Rubik]

You know, the Book of Exalted Deeds has a passage which allows you to sanctify items, which turns all of their evil abilities to good. Use this on the enveloping pit, and suddenly you have to be one step from Lawful Good to make it work.

[unseenmage]

You know, the Book of Exalted Deeds has a passage which allows you to sanctify items, which turns all of their evil abilities to good. Use this on the enveloping pit, and suddenly you have to be one step from Lawful Good to make it work.

Wow, that's actually pretty cool. I'm so using this next chance I get.

[Phelix-Mu]

You know, the Book of Exalted Deeds has a passage which allows you to sanctify items, which turns all of their evil abilities to good. Use this on the enveloping pit, and suddenly you have to be one step from Lawful Good to make it work.


Wow, that's actually pretty cool. I'm so using this next chance I get.

Indeed, this is an excellent catch. While they are optional rules (as is the entirety of BoED), if the DM allows they can be a nice way to secure useful items for the party, and to give a specific item a bit of juicy provenance/flavor. It's interesting to ponder that, if a relic is sanctified, does its related deity change? Is Kurtulmak out there sponsoring some paladin's cubbyhole?

[DuncanMacleod]

This is probably stupid but I was wondering... does the interior of a portable hole count as a plane? If so, can I set up a magic circle and dimensional anchor in there, lean in through the hole and cast planar binding to bind anyone I want (of 18HD or less) from the material plane and then lean back out, take down the hole, wait a short while for them to suffocate (specifically says 10mins of air for medium creature) and then loot the corpse?

Even if it doesn't count as a separate plane, would this strategy be viable to abduct, murder and loot beings from another plane that I really shouldn't have a hope against like, say, a planetar? About nine feet tall so should fit fine. Not 100% sure on the 3.5 text, but Pathfinder clearly states all outsiders need to breath (which is odd but there you are). I'm not saying doing that to an angel would be a smart idea as you're going to get Solars wondering where Dave has gone and miricling the crap out of you. Just wondering if it works in theory if I did have a reason to execute an angel. We're playing an evil game soon :).

[unseenmage]

This is probably stupid but I was wondering... does the interior of a portable hole count as a plane? If so, can I set up a magic circle and dimensional anchor in there, lean in through the hole and cast planar binding to bind anyone I want (of 18HD or less) from the material plane and then lean back out, take down the hole, wait a short while for them to suffocate (specifically says 10mins of air for medium creature) and then loot the corpse?

Even if it doesn't count as a separate plane, would this strategy be viable to abduct, murder and loot beings from another plane that I really shouldn't have a hope against like, say, a planetar? About nine feet tall so should fit fine. Not 100% sure on the 3.5 text, but Pathfinder clearly states all outsiders need to breath (which is odd but there you are). I'm not saying doing that to an angel would be a smart idea as you're going to get Solars wondering where Dave has gone and miricling the crap out of you. Just wondering if it works in theory if I did have a reason to execute an angel. We're playing an evil game soon :).

The intention and execution of extradimensional spaces in 3.x differ somewhat. But to what degree is unknown.
This would be a question for your DM because it requires interpretation of what "extradimensional" means in your DMs cosmology.

I define extradimensional spaces as miniature demiplanes based on RAW but that definition isn't laid out clearly by RAW. It admittedly takes several sources and one to a couple of interpretations for me to get from from
'extradimensional = just more physical space' to 'extradimensional = otherplanar'.

TLDR: Requires interpretation, ask your DM.

[DuncanMacleod]

Thankyou. He will normally at least strongly consider something if we can make a reasonably strong argument that it's RAW, but if it's not that clear I will leave the idea, I come up with enough annoying bull**** as it is :).

Any thoughts on the angel abduction? With a stuffed planetar I will definitely win "pimp my lair". I have a good chance of succeeding on the inital bind, and an OK chance to either win the char roll or for one of us (or a minion) to win initiative and rip the hole down before he breaks free... I think. I'm looking at being a level 12-14 wizard loosely optimized towards this task. We get xp rewards for being impressively evil.

[unseenmage]

Thankyou. He will normally at least strongly consider something if we can make a reasonably strong argument that it's RAW, but if it's not that clear I will leave the idea, I come up with enough annoying bull**** as it is :).

Any thoughts on the angel abduction? With a stuffed planetar I will definitely win "pimp my lair".

Ah, sorry. I didn't remark on the Angel abduction as I do not play Pathfinder (yet!).
If I were DM I'd give them either a Contingency or a flat out immunity to such shenanigans, but that's just me.

[DuncanMacleod]

Thanks. Didn't think of contingency... I don't think he will give them immunity as there is nothing in RAW to suggest such a thing. I'm assuming generic planatar exactly as advertised in the official literature. After all, they're not really "angels", this isn't a judeo-christian universe... they're just very powerful lawful good outsiders, certainly in no way deities.

[Rakoa]

I was playing a Halfling Thief back in AD&D who got his hands on a Portable Hole. He missed The Shires and was tired of human sized accommodations, so he had it rigged up into a Hobbit Hole. Fold-Out Bed with a cupboard on the bottom, a ladder constructed to revolve around the edges of the hole so he could climb in and out, a stove in the middle with a full kitchen around it, lots of shelving, and a spot designated for stolen loot to overflow from sacks, and a wardrobe with clothes for every occasion, and a backup set of adventuring gear.

It was a good time.

[Arkusus]

So okay, me and a friend of mine had a very long talk about how exactly we figured a portable hole would work, and there are a few very particular points I feel need to be addressed, some are just fluff, basically it works either this way or that, and he (the DM) had to make a call, and other stuff I think is a little less interpretive (of course any DM gets to override anything, but you know what I mean)

So first off... Nondimensional space. Does not exist in any dimension. You cannot planeswalk into not-a-dimension. It also is not a part of the Material plane, so (this is more interpretative) you cannot measure distances from inside and outside of the pit for distance related spells. Ray spells work because they travel in a straight line, and continue traveling after being pulled in our out of our nondimensional space.

Second off, we need to know (this again is interpretive, but must be one or the other) if gravity affects the portable hole, or if the hole has it's OWN gravity. You can then do one of the following things:

1: You can do what someone mentioned earlier, and fill the hole up with rocks, fly up above an enemy, and drop huge volumes of stone on their head from super high up.

2: You can hide your ranged and caster buddies inside the hole, and stick it to the roof, and then lure some enemy combatants inside where they get picked off. Alternatively this works as a good trap for players if you're going to give them a portable hole anyways.


Next up we have to determine what happens when a portable hole gets folded? I was able to come up with two logical options if this happens.

1: Positive and negative space. Depending if the general folding is concave or convex in regard to the surface of the hole, it will either temporarily generate some extra space above your normal 6' diameter 10' tall hole, or it will dip inside that hole and possibly reveal some items otherwise lingering in those areas.

2: The portable hole only opens the hole on the largest exposed side. This means the fabric MOSTLY goes inert when folded, but the largest area still lets you reach inside. (I for instance, had my usual supplies on a certain part of the wall (yes, I built a wall and a floor inside my hole) so that when I folded it up right, I could reach into my coat pocket and retrieve any of a number of organized items.


If version 1 works, then you can use a portable hole as a cloak of non-existence. Place the center of the hole on top of your head (The opposite side of the hole, sorry, so you're not going inside. Now with the hole draped over your head, nothing can touch you from the other side of the hole.

For added points, build flooring across the top of your portable hole to match the flooring of the place you're infiltrating, so you blend in. As you walk, you aren't just invisible (not that people couldn't' see the huge hole in the floor), but even if people shot arrows at you, they would go right through, as would magic.


Now, if that doesn't work, you can at LEAST plaster your portable hole across the front of a tower shield, and use it to create an epic shield of total absorption.




Oh yes, and by the way if anyone is interested. You can store about 47 human-sized skeletons in one portable hole, if you have them all compacted battle-droid style. You can get the number closer to 60 if you really nitpick about your methods (inverse every other layer of skeletons to heads fit in the gaps between other heads, and even more bodies if you're willing to completely disassemble them and throw them in charnel-house style.

I find the portable hole to be the single most useful piece of equipment for a Dread Necromancer in case you didn't notice. (I even keep backup minions in there!) (And special skulls nailed to the wall that I can make speak to tell me about things!)

[DuncanMacleod]

Those are some excellent ideas.

[DuncanMacleod]

Although in the medium term if the commander of the enemy forces is equally or more intelligent than you and has sufficient resources it's not going to be long until those arrows are tipped with balled up bags of holding, and then you're either suddenly without your hole in the best case or forcibly off to the astral plane.

[unseenmage]

So okay, me and a friend of mine had a very long talk about how exactly we figured a portable hole would work, and there are a few very particular points I feel need to be addressed, some are just fluff, basically it works either this way or that, and he (the DM) had to make a call, and other stuff I think is a little less interpretive (of course any DM gets to override anything, but you know what I mean)

So first off... Nondimensional space. Does not exist in any dimension. You cannot planeswalk into not-a-dimension. It also is not a part of the Material plane, so (this is more interpretative) you cannot measure distances from inside and outside of the pit for distance related spells. Ray spells work because they travel in a straight line, and continue traveling after being pulled in our out of our nondimensional space.

Second off, we need to know (this again is interpretive, but must be one or the other) if gravity affects the portable hole, or if the hole has it's OWN gravity. You can then do one of the following things:

1: You can do what someone mentioned earlier, and fill the hole up with rocks, fly up above an enemy, and drop huge volumes of stone on their head from super high up.

2: You can hide your ranged and caster buddies inside the hole, and stick it to the roof, and then lure some enemy combatants inside where they get picked off. Alternatively this works as a good trap for players if you're going to give them a portable hole anyways.


Next up we have to determine what happens when a portable hole gets folded? I was able to come up with two logical options if this happens.

1: Positive and negative space. Depending if the general folding is concave or convex in regard to the surface of the hole, it will either temporarily generate some extra space above your normal 6' diameter 10' tall hole, or it will dip inside that hole and possibly reveal some items otherwise lingering in those areas.

2: The portable hole only opens the hole on the largest exposed side. This means the fabric MOSTLY goes inert when folded, but the largest area still lets you reach inside. (I for instance, had my usual supplies on a certain part of the wall (yes, I built a wall and a floor inside my hole) so that when I folded it up right, I could reach into my coat pocket and retrieve any of a number of organized items.


If version 1 works, then you can use a portable hole as a cloak of non-existence. Place the center of the hole on top of your head (The opposite side of the hole, sorry, so you're not going inside. Now with the hole draped over your head, nothing can touch you from the other side of the hole.

For added points, build flooring across the top of your portable hole to match the flooring of the place you're infiltrating, so you blend in. As you walk, you aren't just invisible (not that people couldn't' see the huge hole in the floor), but even if people shot arrows at you, they would go right through, as would magic.


Now, if that doesn't work, you can at LEAST plaster your portable hole across the front of a tower shield, and use it to create an epic shield of total absorption.




Oh yes, and by the way if anyone is interested. You can store about 47 human-sized skeletons in one portable hole, if you have them all compacted battle-droid style. You can get the number closer to 60 if you really nitpick about your methods (inverse every other layer of skeletons to heads fit in the gaps between other heads, and even more bodies if you're willing to completely disassemble them and throw them in charnel-house style.

I find the portable hole to be the single most useful piece of equipment for a Dread Necromancer in case you didn't notice. (I even keep backup minions in there!) (And special skulls nailed to the wall that I can make speak to tell me about things!)

I know you prefaced this with the idea that this was your and your friends or DMs interpretation but I do feel the need to point out that the term, "nondimensional", is not a game term in 3.x D&D. Just throwing that out there as there has been some confusion in the discussions I've read elsewhere on the topic.

Totally and completely agreed that the Portable Hole (and by extension the Enveloping Pit) are a godsend for characters who command non-living minions.
I just recently saw the math for using the Squeezing rules from the PH to show just how many of each creature size one can cram into the P.Hole and E.Pit.

Number of creatures which can fit into extradimensional space by Squeezing twice:
Portable Hole
Fine - 2,000
Diminutive - 2,000
Tiny - 2,000
Small - 250
Medium - 32
Large - 2
Huge - 2
Gargantuan - N/A
Colossal - N/A

Enveloping Pit
Fine - 40,000
Diminutive - 40,000
Tiny - 40,000
Small - 5,000
Medium - 320
Large - 40
Huge - 40
Gargantuan - 5
Colossal - N/A

To my knowledge, these are the only two extradimensional space items that don't have a Bag of Holding's 'destroyed if punctured' clause. Does anyone else know of any others?

[Petrocorus]

Those are huge numbers.

I was thinking, an Envelopping Pit on a Carpet of Flying, add schema of Feather Fall, and you get 320 paratroopers.

[Arkusus]

Although in the medium term if the commander of the enemy forces is equally or more intelligent than you and has sufficient resources it's not going to be long until those arrows are tipped with balled up bags of holding, and then you're either suddenly without your hole in the best case or forcibly off to the astral plane.

Well actually if I recall, bags of holding don't work when turned inside out (pity). But yeah, depending on how you interpret it, you can do some messed up stuff with extra-dimensional items.




Totally and completely agreed that the Portable Hole (and by extension the Enveloping Pit) are a godsend for characters who command non-living minions.
I just recently saw the math for using the Squeezing rules from the PH to show just how many of each creature size one can cram into the P.Hole and E.Pit.

Well, I calculated mine based on the idea of non-animate skeletons having their arms and legs removed and stuffed inside their rib cages to save space. (Some assembly required). I don't really know how you would get skeletal remains to squeeze much tighter. That was mostly an approximation though. I actually calculated out in great detail exactly how many bodies could be fit each layer based on measurements of actual humans and plotted it all out in a graph, but alas that has been lost.

[Arkusus]

Oh yeah, just came up with another use for a portable hole: Digging!

Hold your portable hole very carefully from the top (the open side is facing down) and throw it out like a net onto the ground. Since the bottom side is a hole, it would sink down through the ground about ten feet, leaving you with a 10 foot hole about the size and shape of the inside of the portable hole. (The 'about' refers to your ability to throw it out flat).

At this point, you crawl in the hole, wad up the portable hole, and fold it up, then go and dump out the huge hunk of earth you've got in your hole somewhere else... Rinse, repeat.

[DuncanMacleod]

Ah, I see what you're saying with the turned inside out, but that wasn't what I was driving at:

"If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: the hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process."

[unseenmage]

Well actually if I recall, bags of holding don't work when turned inside out (pity). But yeah, depending on how you interpret it, you can do some messed up stuff with extra-dimensional items.





Well, I calculated mine based on the idea of non-animate skeletons having their arms and legs removed and stuffed inside their rib cages to save space. (Some assembly required). I don't really know how you would get skeletal remains to squeeze much tighter. That was mostly an approximation though. I actually calculated out in great detail exactly how many bodies could be fit each layer based on measurements of actual humans and plotted it all out in a graph, but alas that has been lost.

We used the RAW Squeezing rules for creatures based on the space(s) they occupy. Technically there's another theoretical squeeze you could work in there (would allow for 1 Colossal creature in an E.Pit) but then the creature couldn't move out of the space without outside assistance. Think of it as the equivalent of getting really stuck while spelunking.

I tend to try to disregard the "real" when it comes to what can and can't be done within the rules. Though for inanimate skeletons calculating their volume as objects would seem to be most appropriate, so I agree with you there.