Gestalt and Saving Throws

[ScorpioRage]

I've been in a group of 4 player, one of which is the DM. Because of this there has been an agreement to start using Gestalt classes, so the players aren't pidgeon-holed into a vital role. So far, it's been perfectly fine, but there is one issue that keeps popping up, how do saving throws work in relation? Example: I made a character that was a Ranger15/Scout5//Targeteer Fighter5/Master Thrower 5/Ninja 10. With how I have been doing, ever level I look and see if one of the classes saves goes up between level X and X+1. If it does, I'd take the save and add it to my total.

This ended up giving me saves of Fort +14/Ref +21/Will +9. This doesn't seem like it's right at all, and is the reason I'm here.

[Andezzar]

You only use the best progression of either side. So if both sides improve the saving throw you only get one improvement, not both.

Example Cleric 1//Wizard 1 gets +2 Fort, +0 Ref and +2 Wil as does Fighter 1//Wizard 1

[avr]

Fractional BAB and save bonuses are pretty common in gestalt games to get around problems of this kind.

E.g. gaining a level as Ranger // Fighter would improve your Reflex save by 1/2 point as Rangers get a good progression for Reflex saves.

[Kittenwolf]

You pretty much have to use fractional BaB/Saves, otherwise a Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorcerer 20 has full BaB (and other silly things like that).

[eggynack]

First off, are you using fractional saves? If so, that'd change the numbers some. Otherwise, aberrantly high saves aren't too uncommon with multiclassing, because whether you run them fractionally or normally, you get a +2 bonus to good saves when you hit a new class for the first time. Second, I'm not really sure what a targeteer fighter is. For now, I'm just going to assume the same saves as a fighter.

So, the build starts off with fighter 5//ranger 5. Ranger saves are just better than fighter saves, so you'd basically just get +4/+4/+1. After that, you pick up another five levels of ranger, and five levels of master thrower. The ranger's fortitude save continues to be superior, so that'd advance to +7. However, the ninja's reflex save is better here, so you'd add on another +4. Will save continues to advance terribly. Overall, you get to +7/+8/+3. After that, it's the final five levels of ranger, and the first five levels of ninja. Ninjas just get good reflex, so that's the only thing that would stray from the ranger progression until level fifteen. Thus, you get +9/+12/+5. Finally, you get to ninja/scout, and since the ref save is the only good one on a scout, that's the only one that would be different from the ninja progression. Your final saves are therefore +11/+16/+7.

That's how it all works out, unless I've missed some math in there somewhere. Your saves are therefore too high in comparison to the actual progression, though it's actually possible to pick up far more ridiculous saves. If you're playing with fractional saves, and somehow manage to pull together a series of gestalt dips such that all of your saves are good at every level, your final saves would be +50 all around. I don't know if this is actually possible, but that's just how saves work. The more dips you have, the higher you can push your saves. In a non-fractional game, the saves max out at +40, but that's not too much less ridiculous. Do note that the numbers change a bit if targeteer fighters get good will saves somehow, but it should remain as is otherwise.

[ScorpioRage]

The progression is staggered, Scout//Fighter, Ranger//Fighter x2, Scout//Fighter x2, Scout//Master Thrower x2, Ranger//Master Thrower x3, Ranger//Ninja x10. Due to staggered progression, certain classes are gaining saving throw bonuses when others are sitting still, then the next level the other goes up.

So would you just go off of whatever has good saves, and follow the progression of that class up to the highest level. Not sure if any of this is making sense, but yeah.

[avr]

You pretty much have to use fractional BaB/Saves, otherwise a Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorcerer 20 has full BaB (and other silly things like that).
There is a less-used alternative which makes the sides of the gestalt independent, so in the OPs example you'd count up the save bonuses on the fighter side, then count up all the bonuses on the ranger side then compare the totals. This can get scarily complicated to calculate the best possible bonus.

[ScorpioRage]

There is a less-used alternative which makes the sides of the gestalt independent, so in the OPs example you'd count up the save bonuses on the fighter side, then count up all the bonuses on the ranger side then compare the totals. This can get scarily complicated to calculate the best possible bonus.
This is how I've always thought that it was done, or comparing at every level which class would gain a level of save, then add it to the total.

[PersonMan]

You pretty much have to use fractional BaB/Saves, otherwise a Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorcerer 20 has full BaB (and other silly things like that).

Since when do either Wizard or Sorcerer give full BAB? You take the best from each side at each level, the same way a normal multiclass character can't, for example, take a level in monk then claim a +2 to all saves every level.

[Douglas]

I have yet to see any way to handle BAB and saves in gestalt that makes sense and doesn't fall apart in the face of multiclassing other than the fractional variant everyone's been mentioning but not explaining. So, here's how it works:

There is no "+1 at certain levels, +0 at others". Instead, each class gets the same increase at all levels, but that increase is allowed to be a fraction. For BAB, classes with the good progression get +1 at each level, medium gets +3/4 at each level, and poor gets +1/2 at each level. For saves, good progression is +1/2 at each level and poor is +1/3 at each level. The good save progression also gets a special +2 at class level 1, so for that level it's +2.5.

So, in gestalt, at each level simply take the higher fraction from the two classes. If one class gives +3/4 and the other gives +1/2, you get +3/4 for that level. At level 1 of a class, you get +2.5 in that class's good save(s). Add it all up for all the levels and each save (and BAB), and write down the total on your sheet, including any fractional part. Round down to a whole number for in-game use, but the fraction could affect future progression so keep track of it.


Since when do either Wizard or Sorcerer give full BAB? You take the best from each side at each level, the same way a normal multiclass character can't, for example, take a level in monk then claim a +2 to all saves every level.
If you are not using fractional BAB, then this is how it works:
Side 1: Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19
Side 2: Wizard 20
Level 1: Fighter 1 gives +1 BAB
Level 2: Wizard 2 gives +1 BAB
Level 3: Sorcerer 2 gives +1 BAB
Level 4: Wizard 4 gives +1 BAB
Level 5: Sorcerer 4 gives +1 BAB
...
Level 20: Wizard 20 gives +1 BAB
Total: +20 BAB

I will be very very surprised if you can come up with a way other than fractional BAB (and saves) to fix this that doesn't fail horribly for some other more complicated multiclass build.

[avr]

The progression is staggered, Scout//Fighter, Ranger//Fighter x2, Scout//Fighter x2, Scout//Master Thrower x2, Ranger//Master Thrower x3, Ranger//Ninja x10. Due to staggered progression, certain classes are gaining saving throw bonuses when others are sitting still, then the next level the other goes up.

So would you just go off of whatever has good saves, and follow the progression of that class up to the highest level. Not sure if any of this is making sense, but yeah.
For Fort (as an example) level 1 would give you the +2 for starting as a fighter, Level 2 would give you +2 for starting as a ranger, total +4. Level 3 would add another +1/2 for a good progression which would round up to +5. Level 4 would add another +1/2 for total +5 exactly. Clear now?

Edit: douglas is probably closer to the way fractions should be handled in D&D. My bad.

[Evolved Shrimp]

This ended up giving me saves of Fort +14/Ref +21/Will +9. This doesn't seem like it's right at all, and is the reason I'm here.

Taking the best increment to each bonus at each level (as you've done) is the correct way of doing it, as described in Unearthed Arcana. You are right that this leads to much higher bonuses than in non-gestalt games, but then, gestalt is for high-powered campaigns.

[eggynack]

The progression is staggered, Scout//Fighter, Ranger//Fighter x2, Scout//Fighter x2, Scout//Master Thrower x2, Ranger//Master Thrower x3, Ranger//Ninja x10. Due to staggered progression, certain classes are gaining saving throw bonuses when others are sitting still, then the next level the other goes up.

So would you just go off of whatever has good saves, and follow the progression of that class up to the highest level. Not sure if any of this is making sense, but yeah.
What does that notation mean? I have to assume that you mean something like scout/ranger 2/scout 4/ranger 13//fighter 5/master thrower 5/ninja 10. That might change things somewhat. In particular, you'd mostly be comparing dips against the fighter, which might make the math different. First level, you get a simple +2/+2/+0. Basic enough. Next, you're doing ranger 2 against the second two levels of fighter. The fort and ref saves subsume what the fighter is doing, and the will save stays on the fighter progression, so you get +5/+5/+1. Then you compare the second and third levels of scout against the fourth and fifth levels of fighter. I think that the fort and ref save both advance by one over that sequence, so those go to +6/+6, and the ranger's will save goes up by + 1 in that time, so you get to +6/+6/+2. I'ma stop there, because I'm getting graph headache, but I think that makes the progression halfway clear. If that's what you're doing, it's probably right. Ultimately, it'd probably be a lot easier if you just used fractional save progression. I'd end up with fewer graph headaches, you'd end up with higher saves, and you probably wouldn't have to run ridiculous staggered builds to get the best save advancement.

[sonofzeal]

I, personally, houserule the saving throw (and BAB) progression rules to the following:

- Total up the value from each side, and take the higher.

This avoids nearly all the weirdnesses, and seems to produce good results.

[Douglas]

I, personally, houserule the saving throw (and BAB) progression rules to the following:

- Total up the value from each side, and take the higher.

This avoids nearly all the weirdnesses, and seems to produce good results.
It also results in situations where which side each class is on at each level affects the result. In my opinion, whether to take a level in Fighter//Wizard or Wizard//Fighter should never be a meaningful choice.

[ScorpioRage]

Thanks for the quick replies all, looks like the fractional saves are the way to go, and doesn't lead to asinine results.

[ScorpioRage]

Okay doing it with fractions ended up with Fort 13.66, Ref 18.0, Will 6.66. This sounds much more reasonable.

[Douglas]

Note: Many DMs also house rule when using fractional saves that the one-time +2 only applies once per save, not repeated each time you take a new class with good progression. This is an additional house rule, not part of the official fractional saves variant, but it is fairly common as a fix for the perceived issue of multiclassing resulting in saves higher than any single class would get. Whether this is an issue in need of fixing, or merely a quirk of the system (which is present even without fractional saves), is a matter of opinion.

[ScorpioRage]

Note: Many DMs also house rule when using fractional saves that the one-time +2 only applies once per save, not repeated each time you take a new class with good progression. This is an additional house rule, not part of the official fractional saves variant, but it is fairly common as a fix for the perceived issue of multiclassing resulting in saves higher than any single class would get. Whether this is an issue in need of fixing, or merely a quirk of the system (which is present even without fractional saves), is a matter of opinion.
Yeah, I would assume if it wasn't intended, then prestige classes wouldn't have the +2 bonus to good saves. But they do, so I think RAW and RAI are the same there.

[Chronos]

Quoth douglas:


If you are not using fractional BAB, then this is how it works:
Side 1: Fighter 1/Sorcerer 19
Side 2: Wizard 20
Level 1: Fighter 1 gives +1 BAB
Level 2: Wizard 2 gives +1 BAB
Level 3: Sorcerer 2 gives +1 BAB
Level 4: Wizard 4 gives +1 BAB
Level 5: Sorcerer 4 gives +1 BAB
...
Level 20: Wizard 20 gives +1 BAB
Total: +20 BAB

I will be very very surprised if you can come up with a way other than fractional BAB (and saves) to fix this that doesn't fail horribly for some other more complicated multiclass build.
That's not how it works. Even without fractional BAB, that build has a BAB of 10 at level 20. To break it down:
Level 1: Choose the BAB progression of Fighter. You now have the BAB of a Fighter 1, or +1
Level 2: Choose the BAB progression of Wizard. You now have the BAB of a Fighter 1/Wizard 1, or +1. You don't get the BAB progression of the second level of wizard, since this is the first level of wizard you're counting towards your BAB.
Level 3: Choose the BAB progression of Sorcerer. You now have the BAB of a Fighter 1/Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1, or +1.
Level 4: Choose the BAB progression of Wizard. You now have the BAB of a Fighter 1/Wizard 2/Sorcerer 1, or +2.
...
Level 20: Choose the BAB progression of Wizard. You now have the BAB of a Fighter 1/Wizard 10/Sorcerer 9, or +10.

Although actually, with that build, those aren't the choices you'd make, since you can do better. You'll still only have +10 at level 20 no matter what choices you make, but you can at least make it a little better in the short term, at some levels, by sticking with only one of wiz or sorc for calculating BAB.

Basically, this is like the "take the better side" method, except that you can choose at each level which side is which, and your choice can be different for each class trait or feature (BAB, saves, skill points, etc.).