Disease has poor mechanics, agree? any fixes?

[Devronq]

Sure to a lv.1 commoner disease seem bad but to players well disease seems pretty pointless. Atleast with poison you take the damage right away so you know you could actually harm someone with poison. Disease on the other hand takes atleast a day for it to effect you so there a full 24 hours for you to cast remove disease and nothing happens. Even if it does take effect after the first time it effects you it should be obvious what it is and you'll cast remove disease. Ive personally never had a player feel threatened by a disease. It defiantly gives no combat advantage like dam I'm going to take some minor ability score damage if i don't cast a lv.3 spell in 1d3 days or walk back to town... i think il make it.

TLDR: Disease isn't a threat at all unless you are very low level or don't have access to a lv.3 spell.

[PersonMan]

I don't see why this is a problem. DnD characters are so high-powered that it's unreasonable to expect something like mundane disease to do more than slow them down a bit once they really get out of the gate.

[Devronq]

I don't see why this is a problem. DnD characters are so high-powered that it's unreasonable to expect something like mundane disease to do more than slow them down a bit once they really get out of the gate.

I think mundane doesn't exactly describe most diseases. Alot of disease are because of being bite by a demon or touched my a mummy or other exotic things that I wouldn't exactly call mundane... I understand that the players would have no trouble with mundane diseases but i don't see them as mundane.

[Curmudgeon]

Even if it does take effect after the first time it effects you it should be obvious what it is and you'll cast remove disease.
What exactly would be obvious about some disease, as opposed to poison or magic? You have a fight, get bitten by an insect, wade through water, or touch some plant in the woods. The next day, after several more battles and more insect bites, the DM tells you one of your abilities is decreased. How is that obviously a disease, and not from your most recent battle, contact with some plant, or another random vermin bite? It could be disease. It could also be repeated exposure to poison (brushing against the same types of plants, getting bitten by the same types of insects). It right be from triggering magical traps; after all, you won't know if you failed your saving throw (that the DM actually rolled for you).

[Jon_Dahl]

What exactly would be obvious about some disease, as opposed to poison or magic? You have a fight, get bitten by an insect, wade through water, or touch some plant in the woods. The next day, after several more battles and more insect bites, the DM tells you one of your abilities is decreased. How is that obviously a disease, and not from your most recent battle, contact with some plant, or another random vermin bite? It could be disease. It could also be repeated exposure to poison (brushing against the same types of plants, getting bitten by the same types of insects). It right be from triggering magical traps; after all, you won't know if you failed your saving throw (that the DM actually rolled for you).

This is brilliant! This is what I'm going to do. I'm just going to say that "your bones ache" and ask them to lower their Con, if they fail a secret Fortitude roll after being exposed to Slimy Doom (the day before). They get no additional information whatsoever, since detecting diseases has no mechanic. Genius!

[KnightOfV]

You gotta use diseases right as a DM for them to be effective. Don't tell the player "roll a fortitude save" after he gets clawed by a zombie. Too obvious, and if he rolls low he will ask the Cleric/Pally to remove disease as a precaution.

Instead, describe the festering zombie claw in putrid detail, and how it cuts a deep gash into their arm, drawing blood. Get everyone's saves ahead of time (EVERY DM should have a list of players saving throws) and roll it in secret. Resist the urge to smile sadistically if they fail. DON'T FORGET about it. After the incubation period, when the party is out in the middle of whatever dungeon crawl, crappy town or whatever, tell the infected how terrible and drained they feel. Don't tell them what happened, or how they got sick. Watch them panic when the cleric tells them they don't have remove disease prepared, so they have to wait a day. If they visit a temple, have them politely told their high cleric can only cast 2nd level spells. Player now has to put up with the disability for a full adventuring day, or worse, if you are under 5th level and don't have access to the spell. Remind the player every so often how crappy they feel and add details about the ugly rot on their skin, or yellow vomit. Roll secretly to see if any of the other party members contract the disease from living so closely to the 'infected' on a daily basis.

Really, if used right, its more psychological, helps immersion and roleplay, and has the side benefit of forcing clerics to prepare some spells that are non combat/ utility to counter such dangers. If done correctly, every time the players are bit by a rat swarm, rabid dog, stabbed by a poo coated sword, touched by a strange mold, or have to go into a sewer they will wonder if maybe they failed a saving throw.:smallamused:

But if you don't like disease, don't use it. Most DM's I've seen don't.

EDIT: ninja'd. You get the idea then.:smallredface:

[TuggyNE]

I think mundane doesn't exactly describe most diseases. Alot of disease are because of being bite by a demon or touched my a mummy or other exotic things that I wouldn't exactly call mundane... I understand that the players would have no trouble with mundane diseases but i don't see them as mundane.

For what it's worth, contagion and mummy rot do not wait a day; they strike within a minute at the outside.

[Eldan]

If you think normal diseases aren't good enough, Magister Tungsten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129929) can help you.

[Immabozo]

My first DM hand made a "diety-created disease" that was like a DC 32 fort save every day, for 3 days in a row (one failed save resets the number) and it was some gnarly disease, I forget the damage. The only cure was gotten from the blood of a creature that had contracted it and naturally beat the disease,

As a wildshaping druid in Troll form all day, every day, I was the only one who was about to naturally beat the disease. There were jokes about killing me to harvest my blood.

What we did is put some of the disease-infested something into vials and then went into the forest and infect a tribe of forest giants, cause we figured they'd be the most likely to just naturally beat it. They did (with three deaths). So we watched which ones healed the disease and then many of them (once they did) went out hunting. So we ambushed them, killed them, then harvest the blood we needed, went back to town and spread the cure. The town was about 1/3 strength cause all the others in this used-to-be big town, died.

Then, we found out that an army was coming to wipe us out. So we had to help defend the town. We made preemptive attacks on scouting parties, catching them in canyons and utterly smashing them into surrender, destroyed their siege equipment, then we met up with the largest army and took on of the disease infested vials from before and strategically placed them around the camps to infect everyone, and then by the time the army reached us, it would have mostly died off, I think, but the campaign ended because the DM moved.

[Devronq]

What exactly would be obvious about some disease, as opposed to poison or magic? You have a fight, get bitten by an insect, wade through water, or touch some plant in the woods. The next day, after several more battles and more insect bites, the DM tells you one of your abilities is decreased. How is that obviously a disease, and not from your most recent battle, contact with some plant, or another random vermin bite? It could be disease. It could also be repeated exposure to poison (brushing against the same types of plants, getting bitten by the same types of insects). It right be from triggering magical traps; after all, you won't know if you failed your saving throw (that the DM actually rolled for you).

It obvious in the sense that all players ive had, even newer ones, if something like that were to happen they would just cast neutralize poison, dispel magic and remove disease as their first idea and that gets rid of it.

[Soupz]

Dungeons and Dragons is set up for heroics. If you want deadly threatening disease some players have to die from disease. Do you really want a character you spent months playing to die from unsanitary camp conditions or invisible virus from a sneezing kobold?

[Psyren]

This is brilliant! This is what I'm going to do. I'm just going to say that "your bones ache" and ask them to lower their Con, if they fail a secret Fortitude roll after being exposed to Slimy Doom (the day before). They get no additional information whatsoever, since detecting diseases has no mechanic. Genius!

Status (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/status.htm) says hi - if one of my ability scores decreased mysteriously you can bet I'd run out and get it cast on me at the first opportunity.

There's also the fact that, even if they are being affected by some unknown affliction, they can just keep restoring the attribute until they do have a chance to figure out what's wrong. With the slow frequency of most diseases, a daily LR is generally enough to keep the character going.

[Flickerdart]

Diseases in general aren't terribly threatening (barring things like plagues) if you can get to a doctor quickly and there's a cure. But getting to the doctor can be the tricky part. Yes, it's great if the group's cleric can get to do his job and remove the diseases that come up...but if you don't have a cleric, the days-long slog back to civilization through dropbear-infested jungle is going to take its toll. Maybe you should have shelled out for a few potions of the stuff.

Granted, when Teleport becomes a thing you can just pop back to town for a quick cure, but by that time the nature of the game has changed and little things like diseases hardly matter.

[Deophaun]

I'd like to see a port of 4e's disease track over to 3.5. The thing is so darn useful for modeling anything from wounds to curses that I couldn't believe it took until 4e's BoVD that WotC caught on (and if more liberally applied, would have shored up the weak points of the healing surge system).

The problem with diseases in 3.5 is that remove disease exists. And if you got rid of remove disease, the problem with diseases in 3.5 would be that remove disease does not exist. It's an all or nothing equation that makes disease either a non-issue or a death sentence.

[ericgrau]

I played a campaign where disease was a really big deal due to a plague. It started before level 5 and paying a cleric to cast it was expensive. Even after hitting level 5 it caused some painful debuffs and delay, especially if the party was infected twice. And we couldn't help the entire general population like that, we had to find the source of the plague.

Even without a plague you're looking at some ability damage that takes 24 hours for the cleric to fix it after you notice it. It may take a day to take effect but you don't notice it until it takes effect either. Ability damage is a real pain. Your attacks start missing or you get hit more or you have less hp and fights get that much scarier. When planning builds most people don't have a head for numbers and how big a -2 is, but when playing you do notice the trouble you're in. You don't need to beef up disease.

[Immabozo]

Maybe surprise the PCs with the ability damage mid combat! "Does a 31 hit it?" "It would, but you are suddenly feeling weaker and have a -2 str and a 29 does not hit it."

[Phelix-Mu]

Dungeons and Dragons is set up for heroics. If you want deadly threatening disease some players have to die from disease. Do you really want a character you spent months playing to die from unsanitary camp conditions or invisible virus from a sneezing kobold?

I don't want them dying from ho-hum diseases, but I sure do want a mechanic for

1.) Sentient Ebola (brought to you by the Guild of Cancer Mages Guild)

2.) Walking Aneurysm (it's like walking pneumonia, but instead of sneezing, you just die).

3.) That parasite that grows in your unspeakable parts and makes you wee too often, leading to dehydration, leading to renal failure, leading to a Tiny flesh-eating vermin emerging from your urethra and eating your organs while you sleep. You know, that one.:smalltongue:

In short, as Ambassador Par Excellence to the Land of Horrors, I, the DM, need more tools to torment players with. The basic disease mechanic is, as others have noted, easily offset by one or two spells a day, only problematic when the whole party gets something stubborn before level 5 or so. After that, potions, spells, and use-activated items of "fixed that for you" are so common that hitting a party with a standard disease will require more than just subterfuge on the part of the DM.

So, almost all my diseases are homebrewed and heavily accelerated/otherwise departing from the basic mechanic. They aren't terribly prolific (cause they'd lead to widespread death), but they can be highly lethal, and should prompt some worried looks, sweaty palms, and hurried problem-solving around the table (which was the point).

There was a nifty thread a while back for someone that was organizing a list of custom diseases for a campaign with that kind of theme. Google "giant in the playground" and "100 diseases" should bring it up. Nice resource if you don't want to be doing the homebrew from scratch.

[Psyren]

The problem with diseases in 3.5 is that remove disease exists. And if you got rid of remove disease, the problem with diseases in 3.5 would be that remove disease does not exist. It's an all or nothing equation that makes disease either a non-issue or a death sentence.

Heal checks are a thing; Removing Remove Disease to make your campaign grittier is not the end of the world.

You could even modify the spell to be a buff that gives the caster a huge bonus on his next Heal check. For the weak diseases it would be functionally identical, whereas for the strong ones you would have to actually know what you were doing.

[cerin616]

Or, as I would DM, you know what your characters stats are, you see a die roll, you tell them fail or success without telling them the DC, or why they failed. You just say something like "you feel a bit weak" or even, "You dont feel quite right"

Disease is supposed to be subtle. Its not like someone sneezes, a single virus gets in you and you go "OH **** I HAVE THE PLAGUE". You dont wake up in the morning and say "hmm it seems my strength decreased by one last night, better see whats up" (granted once you have a decent penalty you go "oh ****, Im deffinitly a bit mussed up right now...")

[Phelix-Mu]

Heal checks are a thing; Removing Remove Disease to make your campaign grittier is not the end of the world.

You could even modify the spell to be a buff that gives the caster a huge bonus on his next Heal check. For the weak diseases it would be functionally identical, whereas for the strong ones you would have to actually know what you were doing.

And...done.:smallsmile:

Thanks, Psyren, you well of wisdom. I've always been irritated that RAW Heal uses are pretty minor in comparison with the "Duh...spell for dat" of magical healing. This fixes a big part of the problem in an elegant way that rewards characters for investing in an iconic skill.

I might still keep the Healer and Paladin abilities relating to removing disease as more a more advanced ability.

And, to the general discussion, I believe there are a number of spells that deal with disease in Book of Erotic Fantasy, including the should-be core detect disease (I mean, there's detect poison...).

[Psyren]

And...done.:smallsmile:

Thanks, Psyren, you well of wisdom. I've always been irritated that RAW Heal uses are pretty minor in comparison with the "Duh...spell for dat" of magical healing. This fixes a big part of the problem in an elegant way that rewards characters for investing in an iconic skill.

Glad to help!

So I envision that in a grittier campaign, the spell would be changed to "Weaken Disease" instead. It would lower the DC of every disease afflicting the target by 10 or so, for either hours or days/level. Then the target's normal fort save (or an attendant caretaker's Heal check) would be the deciding factor. If they are so weak from the disease that a fort save is still dicey, that's where the Heal check would be even more important.

[AntiTrust]

I've done it once that some diseases are communicable by touch. Even clerics casting cure disease risked infecting themselves by touching the infected target. The only ones who could safely cast it were paladins or other characters immune to diseases (so very few). Streets cleared out, markets closed and a nice level of paranoia set in. Common folk tended to blame adventurers who were always off in some dungeon or old ruins for causing plagues that would run through towns killing off portions of their population.