[AD&D] Thief Weapon Choice Advice

[babus]

Sheet For the Character I'm Requesting Help With:

Name: Monday
Race: Halfling
Class: Rogue (Bounty Hunter Kit)
Level: 1

Strength: 14
Dexterity: 19
Constitution: 15
Wisdom: 12
Intelligence: 14
Charisma: 12

AC: 6
HP: 7
Thaco: 20

Non-Weapon Proficiencies: Ancient History, Tracking
Background: Limner/mapmaker, Navigator

Hey, I'm joining an AD&D 2nd Edition group, but am sadly unfamiliar with the system, so I was hoping to get some advice on weapons selection for a Bounty Hunter Thief. For those unfamiliar with the kit, it grants you an extra weapon proficiency slot that must go to a Fighter weapon, and the flavor text encouraged you to pick something weird. I think that sounds great, but my unfamilarity with 2nd Edition has left me without any idea of how to find such a weapon. Google has been somewhat limited as I've found lists, but they don't really elaborate much on special properties.

What I have don't is read through the Arms and Equipment guide.

I'm really liking the Bola, as a called shot to the neck seems rather useful for keeping the Mage from letting a fireball go at our party, and the flavor goes well with a Bounty Hunter, but I'm not sure if it's one of those "looks cool, but it's useless" things I'm so familiar with in 3.5. The Harpoon and Mancatcher also seem flavorful.

As far as rogue weapons go... I'm not really familiar enough with the 2nd to make judgements beyond getting "something the DM feels I can justify backstab working with" so I can make use of the class feature. Shortsword, I guess.

Any suggestions are welcome, though I should note that the DM doesn't want people multiclassing.

[Pilo]

Short sword is a must have due to Longtooth Backstabing shortsword you may find latter.
Throwing daggers are nice too.
Bolas might be cool, the cleric of my group use oil of impact on his. It is very effective. Even with a silencing effect on them, it might be efficient.

[Premier]

Shortsword is a good fallback weapon for the thief. For your non-bounty hunter-specific ranged weapon I would suggest darts (a full bandolier of them!) instead of daggers. Slightly worse damage (which doesn't matter because you don't use it for dealing damage), slightly better maximum range, and three shots per round compared to the dagger's two.

Don't use it to deal out damage, that's the fighters' job. Use it to neutralise enemy spellcasters by showering them with darts from your hiding spot. With your 19 Dexterity, 3 attacks per round and the poor AC wizards tend to have (and optionally the advantage of being hidden), you'll be hitting them pretty reliably every round, messing up their spellcasting. (Disclaimer: exact success factor depends on how your DM is running initiative and casting.)

The bola is an interesting choice and very much in-character for a bounty hunter. So is a mancatcher, but A, I'd clear that with the DM, since he might have problems with the verisimilitude of a short halfling using a long polearm, and B, it's not playing to your strengths (high Dexterity and thief skills). Another option might be the blowgun: as a damage dealer it's inferior both to throwing daggers and darts, but you could get a whole bunch of needles for it and coat them with paralysing poisons and other chemical agents.

[hamlet]

There really aren't "trap options" in those terms in 2nd edition. Sure, there are some that are only situationally useful, but for the most part, they're all equally useful with their tradeoffs.

For a bounty hunter, I'd say start with two "typical" type weapons that can also see dual use. A dagger (for stabbing and throwing) is always good. Keep a brace of them on hand, definately.

Believe it or not, a basic club is always good to have, even for a bounty hunter. Good for clobbering quarry that are being a hassle, easy to get in and out of settlements, easy and cheap to acquire, and has the bludgeoning type damage as opposed to piercing so you're not stuck out when skeletons appear. Also, easy to deal with the town mlitia when they ask about weapons and you tell them "it's just my walking stick" or whatever.

For the exotic, well there's a lot of them if you're into the splat books. Bolas are good. Great for stopping quarry cold.

Lasso, believe it or not, works out well, but is hard to pull of well.

Yer basic net (Complete Fighter's Handbook I think) is great.

Mancatcher is fantastic for dangerous opponent control if youv'e got the strength to back it up: use it on something like a ghoul, ghast, wight, etc. that's just dangerous to get near and you can use your own basic strength to keep him away from yourself and your buddies.

Caltrops are excellent for when you're on the long, cold hunt and you know where your quarry will be shortly.

There are others in there, but I've always liked these as general "non-lethal" weapons for "bringing them back alive."

[Lord Torath]

Short sword is a must have due to Longtooth Backstabing shortsword you may find latter.
The Dagger of Longtooth actually uses your dagger proficiency while inflicting short-sword damage, at least as described in the DMG. YDMMV.

Plus, you get a +1 to hit with thrown daggers as a halfling.

As mentioned, the Mancatcher is a size L weapon, which means it can't be used by a Size S halfling (you can use 1-handed size M weapons in two hands as a Size S halfling).

Sling is worth looking at, if nothing else for the +1 racial bonus to hit.

I do like the bola (and being a thrown sling-like weapon, you might be able to argue your DM into giving you the +1 racial bonus), and it's nice and flavorful for a bounty hunter.

The best part about caltrops is that they don't even require a proficiency to use. Definitely worth picking some up.

On sneaking weapons into town: Daggers are generally not prohibited, and your sling can be disguised as a belt. Bolas are non-lethal (generally) and so should not have a problem either.

[LibraryOgre]

Talk to your DM, but your best options for a halfing are going to be a short sword and daggers.

1) Short sword is second only to long swords in randomly generated treasure, and has a few special variants. Since you're small, it's the best one-handed weapon you can use in terms of damage output. It is also fairly fast.

2) Daggers are fun, cheap, versatile, and frequently magical. They're throwing weapons, which is great for a halfling, and they are the default off-hand weapon (great for dual-wielding).

A good weapon to get later (4th level) is a club, but you may also want short bows (good damage ranged weapon), sling (free and disguisable ranged weapon, with halfling bonus), and club (free, bludgeoning)

[thorr-kan]

Lasso, believe it or not, works out well, but is hard to pull of well.

SO...MUCH...FUN...

Played a Dragonlance commoner in a 2ED game once. When we ran into the gargoyles, my lasso was the only effective weapon we had; no magic items, you see, so we couldn't hurt them.

But I kept lassoing them, tying them off, and running further away. We got out alive. Not prideful, but alive.

Be sure to take Rope Use for the bonuses.

[hamlet]

See, now that's thinkin' old school!

You, sir, win a cookie!

[angry_bear]

I'd say look into getting a sap, but I'm not sure how effective that'd be with a small Halfling... I don't have the rules for the weapon on hand right now, but I remember them being an almost automatic knockout when used with a back stab.

[Monss Meg]

A sap would be good if you got on a table or could raise your self up. It only works if you can hit t back of thare head, and thay are not waring a helm.

[Toofey]

Sling, i'm pretty sure you'll get specific racial bonuses, I think it's more than 1 shot a round (which is silly thinking about it) and with your dex and racial bonuses you may start better than most any 1st level fighter in terms of combat effectiveness, and be at range.

(oooh also you get free ammo with stones and a nice damage bump for sling bullets you pay for)


Notes to previous replies:
On dual weidling: Halfingls are small so daggers are size class M relative to them so they cannot use them to dual wield the same way size M races can... if you get really into the book rules.

Short Sword: They're common but I think it's a 2 handed weapon for you (I don't have a PHB but sized M weapons are going to be 2 handed) Also more other characters are going to want them.

Lasso is not a bad option, but you're next to useless in a fight against multiple targets. If you take this remember to take the Rope use proficiency to maximize the Lasso's usefulness, Also just take rope use, it's a good idea and gives some nice useful bonuses to their abilities.

So like I said, take Sling.

[LibraryOgre]

Notes to previous replies:
On dual weidling: Halfingls are small so daggers are size class M relative to them so they cannot use them to dual wield the same way size M races can... if you get really into the book rules.

Short Sword: They're common but I think it's a 2 handed weapon for you (I don't have a PHB but sized M weapons are going to be 2 handed) Also more other characters are going to want them.


These are both incorrect. Both a dagger and a short sword are Small weapons, and perfectly acceptable for a halfling to use, even dual-wield.

[MeeposFire]

These are both incorrect. Both a dagger and a short sword are Small weapons, and perfectly acceptable for a halfling to use, even dual-wield.

IN addition slings also only offer one shot a round by default and thieves are unlikely to get more. Also being a halfling you are unlikely to get a high str bonus (unless you find gauntlets of ogre power or giant belts) to make a sling worth it (and that is only if you use variant rules that make thrown weapons not get str bonus to damage or reduced damage).

Good weapons have been mentioned but one melee option not said is punching. A non warrior is allowed tospecialize into punching which gives you +1 to hit, +1 damage, and +1 attack. You can improve your damage with a cestus (bonus cestus requires no prof point to use and allows you to attack armed and armored targets with no problems) and if you go without you can easily deal non-lethal damage. The idea of a bounty hunter skilled in hand to hand seems to work for me and the combo of accuracy, damage, and extra attacks makes for a powerful combo. You can also further improve your skill with dual weapon use though be careful while you might be decent in melee your health and AC are probably not up to the task for a prolonged melee.

So 1 point to specialize into punching and one point into a ranged weapon of choice of which I recommend short bows (range), darts (attacks per round), or daggers (greater easy access to magic weapons that are versatile). Later on I like the idea of picking up prof in things like lasso or net so you can disable targets but at level one you want a weapon that can be used in as many situations as possible and those options are very specialized.

[Lord Torath]

As a Bounty Hunter, he also gains one extra 'exotic' weapon proficiency he can spend on a weapon not normally allowed to thieves, which is why he was looking at bolas and lassos.

[MeeposFire]

As a Bounty Hunter, he also gains one extra 'exotic' weapon proficiency he can spend on a weapon not normally allowed to thieves, which is why he was looking at bolas and lassos.

I forgot about the extra prof that is perfect. Either weapon is good at disabling so it becomes more about range and being able to quickly reuse your weapon.

[Yondu]

Boomerang could be a good tool, blunt, you can sap a ennemy for far away you can KO an enemy surprised (10 % of KO per point of damage if surprised max 80%), Chijikiri is good tool to trip/Pull opponents (+4 to Strength for these maneuvers), and finally crossbow, (with the combat and tactics specifically), you can armor penetration (- 5 to physical AC at short range for a light crossbow, completely negating Chain Mail...) with a good poison, you have a great tool for capture or assassination...

[Toofey]

These are both incorrect. Both a dagger and a short sword are Small weapons, and perfectly acceptable for a halfling to use, even dual-wield.
The size rules are elsewhere stated to be proportional. It's not that dagger and short swords are size M it's that the halfling is size S so they are both size M relative to the halfling. I'm pretty sure the proportionality stuff is in the 2nd ed PHB and I'm pretty sure they're in one of the bound AD&D books but I'm not sure which

Ergo the halfling cannot auto dual wield the two daggers/short swords as size S because they are not size S for the halfling.

[hamlet]

The size rules are elsewhere stated to be proportional. It's not that dagger and short swords are size M it's that the halfling is size S so they are both size M relative to the halfling. I'm pretty sure the proportionality stuff is in the 2nd ed PHB and I'm pretty sure they're in one of the bound AD&D books but I'm not sure which

Ergo the halfling cannot auto dual wield the two daggers/short swords as size S because they are not size S for the halfling.

Yes he can.

Creatures can handle weapons of their own size or smaller in one hand, thus a halfling can handle two small weapons, one in either hand, without trouble.

If he wants to use a long sword, he'll have to use two hands.

[LibraryOgre]

The size rules are elsewhere stated to be proportional. It's not that dagger and short swords are size M it's that the halfling is size S so they are both size M relative to the halfling. I'm pretty sure the proportionality stuff is in the 2nd ed PHB and I'm pretty sure they're in one of the bound AD&D books but I'm not sure which

Ergo the halfling cannot auto dual wield the two daggers/short swords as size S because they are not size S for the halfling.

This is entirely wrong.

Weapon sizes are absolute. Daggers and Short Swords are always size S. A halfling, being size S, can always weild them one-handed, and a dagger can always been the off-hand weapon.

[Belril Duskwalk]

With a 19 Dex I would suggest that when if it comes to melee combat, you be prepared dual-wield. Page 96 of the Players Handbook lays out the full details, but the short version is this; At your Dex, you can dual wield and the off-hand takes a -1 penalty to hit. That's all. Your primary weapon suffers no drawbacks whatsoever.

Bolas or Lassos are good at their job and very flavorful for a Bounty Hunter. Take Rope Use as well if you go for Lasso, it negates most of the drawbacks the Lasso has from most of its attacks being Called Shots.

Also, good luck in your endeavors as a Bounty Hunter. With luck, you may some day rival my own illustrious* avatar name-sake Belril Duskwalker. Made it to 9th level Bounty Hunter before the campaign itself suffered critical wounds from Real Life.

*Not actually illustrious at all. He's a good adventurer, but a terrible Bounty Hunter. He has all of two confirmed Bounties to his name, the more recent when he was level 4.

[babus]

Thanks to the help from all of you.

A little short on non-weapon proficiencies due to Track being required as a Bounty Hunter, so I'll go with Bola rather than Lasso, as there's not much room for Use Rope, though I'll definitely keep it in mind for another character. Darts look really interesting, but the DM just now told me about a homebrew weapon he's introducing. A set of guns with varying range that he claims are not terrible. The version I'd go with would be longbow range, and uses up a Thief Weapon slot, but that still means that I'm sacrificing either Short Sword or Dagger for it.

I wasn't even aware non-rangers could dual wield until this thread, so thank you very much for that, and the Longtooth Daggers will make my damage much more passable.

Thanks also to Belril, nice to see someone who has been on the same path.

[LibraryOgre]

Rangers are the best at dual-weilding in 2e (they're capable but not outstanding in 1e), but any warrior or rogue can dual weild in 2e.

[Hawriel]

Good suggestions.

Dagger, short sword, club, sap, sling, bolas, dart, and punching/grappling are all highly useful for any thief, or bounty hunter type character.

I would add light cross bow, or hand cross bow to that list. More compact that a short bow, and there is more utility to it.

Take unarmed combat proficiency to hart. A bounty hunter character needs to be able to physically control the subject after the initial take down.

Darts are a good idea, you can use them to disrupt spell casters, and poison them.

[TrollCapAmerica]

If you can use the Arms and equipment guide can you use the Players option combat and tactics book?Because theres quite a good list of weapons there

If you can try asking the DM if you can use Flintlocks.Duel wielding a couple horse pistols can add some really nice extra Ommph to your attacks and the armor piercing ability will make up for your meh attack bonus.If not Light Crossbows are worth it from the same book just shorter range for ignoring armor

[babus]

Dangit. So many cool things to use, but so few proficiency slots. Any way to get more proficiencies as I level up? I know kits can add some, but I'm already using Bounty Hunter to get an extra, and I do like the theme.

[hamlet]

Dangit. So many cool things to use, but so few proficiency slots. Any way to get more proficiencies as I level up? I know kits can add some, but I'm already using Bounty Hunter to get an extra, and I do like the theme.

You gain proficiency slots as you level up naturally. Beyond that, there's no by the book way (other than some kits) to get more.

[Lord Torath]

The easiest way to gain lots of proficiency slots is to not use them. That way, you're proficient in any weapon you pick up. If that's not an option (and it probably isn't), your only other option is to hit level 4, then 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Or beg your DM. :smalltongue:

[LibraryOgre]

The easiest way to gain lots of proficiency slots is to not use them. That way, you're proficient in any weapon you pick up. If that's not an option (and it probably isn't), your only other option is to hit level 4, then 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Or beg your DM. :smalltongue:

You can also find a fighter from Athas of 3rd level of higher to teach you the weapon, if they know it.