Help with a Psion20//Warblade20 gestalt?

[Ravitiate]

Hi!

While me and my crew never really explored Psions, I got the go to make one. My current character seems destined to die (close so many times!)

As a back-up, I'm making a Psion20//Warblade20-gestalt and I've cooked up something I'm about 90 % happy with, but need some help with the feats - a lot of feats get picked really late, which has frustrated me.

I was originally planning something akin to Psion5/Metamind10/PsionPrC//Factotum12/Psion5/Warblade3 but it seems way too cheesy and not an especially good way for the DM to experience his first Psionic character. Therefore, something clean and simple.

The setting:
- We're 2 adventurers, one Warblade/Eternal Blade//Beguiler and me.
- We're trapped in the infamous "the worlds biggest dungeon"
- This character might begin playing as early as level 3, so I might do some suboptimal power/feat-picks for early game survivability, and swapping them later with Psychic Reformation.

The base:
- Stats: 83 points total, I'm thinking 13/12/16/18/12/12
- Strongheart Halfling (or Human)
- Psion Egoist
- Glaive/Guisarme or the like

Feats (P for Psion, W for Warblade, SH for Strongheart Halfling)
1: Psionic Weapon, Psicrystal Affinity (P), Power Attack (SH)
3: Psicrystal Containment
5: Improved Initiative (W), Deep Impact (P)
6: Instant Clairity
9: Metamorphic Transfer, Combat Reflexes (W)
10: Overchannel (P)
12: Extend Power
13: Quick Draw (W)
15: Psionic Meditation, Quicken Power (P)
17: Great Fortitude (W)
18: Twin Power
20: Linked Power (P)

I'm also getting Psionic Meditatation for my crystal at level 12 for some extra focus-expending trickery.

The plan early levels is something like Power Attacking Deep Impact first round, Maneuver second, refresh Psionic Focus with Instant Clairity. Rince and repeat. Deep Impact can be used twice if you're expending the Psicrystals focus. Even better if the maneuver is swift or immidiate and I could Deep Impact twice.

Around 7-9 and onwards when Metamophisis and Metamorphic transfer hit, do the same but in a better form. At later levels grant extra actions with Psi-spells and Maneuvers, buff yourself more, expend focus and Quicken/Twin in the same round as you're bashing people's heads in.

While I think the feats themselves are good and have good synergy, a lot of the good ones hit really late, Overchannel would be handy sience I'm gonna have massive amounts of hit points, I'd also like to have Extend a lot earlier. Quicken is prolly handy before level 15 too...

Going crazy..

Is Deep Impact good enough for the feats when you have maneuvers like Emerald Razor? Some feats I've forgotten?

While I stated earlier that I wanted a clean build, I would be willing to dip a couple of Fighter-levels over Warblade if it favoured me, but the only Fighter-feat I've gotten for now is Power Attack, obvious choices like Leap Attack and Robliars Gambit means dipping late, which again means losing highish-level maneuvers. Then again, I guess those feats are better than most maneuvers...

Thanks for reading, suggestions appriciated! :)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Since you've got your Psion side to back you up anyways,I'd suggest Warblade 18/Fighter 2 (or anything 2, really) on the other side to stagger your IL enough so that your second stance can be a 3rd level stance.

[Ravitiate]

Since you've got your Psion side to back you up anyways,I'd suggest Warblade 18/Fighter 2 (or anything 2, really) on the other side to stagger your IL enough so that your second stance can be a 3rd level stance.

Yeah, I thought about it, but if you dip a ToB-character you might as well dip twice for the Initiator Level, and I can't find another low-level Fighter-feat I truly want without a long feat-chain. Best might be Warblade3/Fighter2 and pick up Power Attack/Leap Attack at the cost of delaying 2nd/3rd-lvl maneuvers (and Improved Initiative).

[Rebel7284]

There is always Fighter 1/Barbarian 1 for pounce. :)

[Fouredged Sword]

Crystal Master makes for a great gishy PRC for the psion side. You can get nice untyped +6 bonuses to stats (Int, Str, Con, Dex) a +6 inspiration bonus to saves and defense, and DR6/-.

You also get a psicrystal with two personalities. I recommend nimble and single minded, then you use the +3 to concentration checks paired with diamond mind strikes.

[Keld Denar]

I actually like Blind Fight from among the WB bonus feats. Since you are psionic, Mageslayer doesn't affect you negatively which opens up Peirce Magic Concealment, which I think is all kinds of awesome. You might get better mileage there than Overchannel or something.

Otherwise, looks good

[Draz74]

Since you've got your Psion side to back you up anyways,I'd suggest Warblade 18/Fighter 2 (or anything 2, really) on the other side to stagger your IL enough so that your second stance can be a 3rd level stance.

No WAY. Not if the game is starting at Level 20. Stance Mastery is way, way better than upgrading one of the Level 1 stances to Level 3.

(And as I've argued many other places, the Level 3 stances are mostly terrible anyway. While specific builds may be exceptions, in general Punishing Stance, Hunter's Sense, and Leading the Charge are better than Absolute Steel, Leaping Dragon Stance, and whatever the L3 White Raven option is.)

[Tvtyrant]

Deep Impact requires up to 3 feats (psionic weapon, Deep Impact, and psionic meditation) and a power (hustle) to use effectively. Otherwise you spend a feat for a single touch attack in an encounter, which at level 20 is not great. The Razor gets the same effect with only a single maneuver used, which is less resource intensive and just as effective.

It is fine on a low-mid level 2 handed psy warrior who is PA every round, but you probably are not going to get away with PAing for full at level 20 even with a touch attack.

[Keld Denar]

Instead of using that, he's actually using Instant Clarity. it allows 3/day becoming focused as a swift action following a strike. So round 1 is a Deep Impact, possibly with a boost, round 2 is a strike, possibly Emerald Razor, followed by Instant Clarity, and round 3 is a Deep Impact and recovering maneuvers. Round 4 is another Emerald Razor, possibly with a boost, and then the fight is hopefully over. Instant Clarity can thusly be used in 3 encounters per day.

It's actually pretty good in the 4-8 level range, especially against bigger foes with low touch ACs.

[Tvtyrant]

Instead of using that, he's actually using Instant Clarity. it allows 3/day becoming focused as a swift action following a strike. So round 1 is a Deep Impact, possibly with a boost, round 2 is a strike, possibly Emerald Razor, followed by Instant Clarity, and round 3 is a Deep Impact and recovering maneuvers. Round 4 is another Emerald Razor, possibly with a boost, and then the fight is hopefully over. Instant Clarity can thusly be used in 3 encounters per day.

It's actually pretty good in the 4-8 level range, especially against bigger foes with low touch ACs.

Sorry, I missed that :C

I still think three feats to do a little extra damage (or even a lot of extra damage) isn't a good investment (Still Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact and Instant Clarity) but three times per day is a better investment than hustling all the time.

[Keld Denar]

Instant Clarity holds onto a fair bit of versatility, though. Drop an Empowered Energy Ray or similar nuke on the first round, or better yet, Link a pair of buffs together, then move in and drop a White Raven Hammer to regain your focus and then expend it again the next round. You'll kinda alternate back and forth between manifesting and attacking, but it keeps things interesting and gives you some interesting versatility. Too bad it doesn't give you extra uses as you increase in level though. That would be neat.

[Jack_Simth]

No WAY. Not if the game is starting at Level 20. Per the original post:


- This character might begin playing as early as level 3

[Talya]

Since you've got your Psion side to back you up anyways,I'd suggest Warblade 18/Fighter 2 (or anything 2, really) on the other side to stagger your IL enough so that your second stance can be a 3rd level stance.


It would be painful to get that close to Warblade 20 and not actually have it. Warblade 20 has one of the best capstones of any class. If you want a second level 3 stance, take a feat.

[Ravitiate]

Thanks for all the feedback! :) Wall of text incomming!

While I agree that Warblade's capstone is awesome, I can't really pay too much attention to it. We played the next session yesterday and I was 1 HP away from the true death (damn Dire Wolfs! We got to level 4 after the encounter though, so that's good). If I start playing this character at level 3-5 I have to pay some heed to surviving long enough to actually reach level 20, besides, I'm guessing we'll just continue on with epic levels and I'll grab the last two Warblade-levels at 21/22, would prolly still be worth it.

If I for some reason survive the horrors of this damned dungeon and get to the levels 9-10 I'll skip Fighter all together and stick to pure Warblade, my main concern is getting useful feats fast enough in early levels.

Grabbing Fighter on level 4 & 5 is actually pretty handy for the feat tree, I'm getting Leap Attack and it pushes the psion-feats back by 3 levels, giving me Overchannel at level 1 and Extend Power at 10 (Figure I'm mostly gonna use it on Metamorphisis):

1: Psionic Weapon, Psicrystal Affinity (P), Overchannel (SH)
3: Psicrystal Containment
5: Deep Impact (P)
6: Instant Clairity
7: Improved Initiative (W)
9: Metamorphic Transfer
10: Extend Power (P)
11: Combat Reflexes (W)
12: Quicken Power
13: Quick Draw (W)
15: Psionic Meditation, Twin Power (P)
17: Great Fortitude (W)
18: Linked Power
20: Free Psion Feat (P)

Seems more viable early. For maneuvers I'll grab something like:

Support:
- Pouncing Charge (Obviously)
- Quicksilver Motion (Hustle without the PP, and combined with Instant Clairty it grants focus)
- Iron Heart Surge
- White Raven Tactics
- Iron Heart Endurance (Healing is still pretty handy..)

Strikes I'll grab:
- Ruby Nightmare Blade
- Elder Mountain Hammer
- Insightful/Greater Insightful Strike
- Raging Mongoose
- White Raven Hammer
- Time Stands Still
- Strike of Perfect Clarity

The rest will probarbly be counters like Wall of Blades, Rapid Counter, Manticore Parry etc.


Crystal Master makes for a great gishy PRC for the psion side. You can get nice untyped +6 bonuses to stats (Int, Str, Con, Dex) a +6 inspiration bonus to saves and defense, and DR6/-.

You also get a psicrystal with two personalities. I recommend nimble and single minded, then you use the +3 to concentration checks paired with diamond mind strikes.
Haven't even seen this PRC, it's pretty damn good, the good thing about gestalts is that alot of PRCs that lose caster/manifester levels suddenly become viable. I was seriously considering Psion Uncarnate just for the hell of it, but I don't know, I really want to keep this build simple if I have the option to do so. I'll see how it turns out :)


Sorry, I missed that :C

I still think three feats to do a little extra damage (or even a lot of extra damage) isn't a good investment (Still Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact and Instant Clarity) but three times per day is a better investment than hustling all the time.Also, from level 3 I can use my Psicrystals focus once per encounter (assuming I've granted it focus pre-combat). At level 12 the Psicrystal picks up Psionic Meditation, granting it the ability to focus in combat. On the Crystals initiative it uses it's move action to get focused, and then readies an action to focus if it loses focus. This grants me at least two "free" touch attacks each round, three if I manage to refresh my own focus.

If I've also got a metamorphed form granting me a decent
increase in strength PA should be a breeze.

It should be noted that I do have the ability to cast powers if I don't have the option to PA. Didn't find really good blasting spells in the Psion-list. I think I'm sticking to

2: Crystalstorm (con-damage is good)
6: Disintergrate, Psionic

The rest seems rather lackluster in comparison. The level 3 Energy Bolt could be good I guess? I see the Psionics Handbook suggests Telekintec Thrust and throwing tons of Greatswords at mobs, but I don't see myself "abusing" that.


I actually like Blind Fight from among the WB bonus feats. Since you are psionic, Mageslayer doesn't affect you negatively which opens up Peirce Magic Concealment, which I think is all kinds of awesome. You might get better mileage there than Overchannel or something.

Otherwise, looks goodYeah, and it's probarbly better than Quick Draw in any case, I just neglected it because I've figured I'll have "Touchsight" from the Psion-side anyway.

By the way, side question: Will the bonus from a Leap Attack carry over to all attacks if you Pounce, or just the first? Flavour-wise it makes sense that just the first attack gains the bonus, but from RAW I can see it go both ways.

[Rubik]

Check out the Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm) and Solicit Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/solicitPsicrystal.htm) powers. Now consider what happens when you combine those and use Control Body on yourself. You lose out on attacks of opportunity, but you get to use your Int for damage and can manifest powers and attack in the same round. Useful for attacking while buffing, blasting, and battlefield control all three.

And don't forget the Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm)/Share Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm)/psicrystal combo. Share both with your psicrystal and watch as you suddenly gain the equivalent of +10 temporary hp per power point spent (+5 thp plus half-damage). Note that your psicrystal takes even less effective damage because of its hardness rating.

[TuggyNE]

Also, from level 3 I can use my Psicrystals focus once per encounter (assuming I've granted it focus pre-combat). At level 12 the Psicrystal picks up Psionic Meditation, granting it the ability to focus in combat. On the Crystals initiative it uses it's move action to get focused, and then readies an action to focus if it loses focus. This grants me at least two "free" touch attacks each round, three if I manage to refresh my own focus.

Unfortunately, psicrystals cannot focus themselves without homebrew (shameless plug for one possibility). Instead, you have to focus it yourself; regaining both focuses with Psionic Meditation is therefore a full-round action, or a move and hustle-derived second move.

[Ravitiate]

Unfortunately, psicrystals cannot focus themselves without homebrew (shameless plug for one possibility). Instead, you have to focus it yourself; regaining both focuses with Psionic Meditation is therefore a full-round action, or a move and hustle-derived second move.

It should work with the right build. This is my logic:

Psycrystal
Diminutive Construct
Hit Dice: As masters HD (HP 1/2 masters)
(...)
Wisdom 10
(...)
Skills: A psicrystal has the same skill ranks as its owner, except that it has a minimum of 4 ranks each in Spot, Listen, Move Silently, and Search. (Even if its owner has no ranks in these skills, a psicrystal has 4 ranks in each.) A psicrystal uses its own ability modifiers on skill checks.


So it gains an ability-point when I reach 4th, 8th and 12th level (because it's HD increases), I put all 3 into Wisdom giving it 12. With the same logic it also gets feats.

I can do this because under "Advancing Monsters" the SRD states:


Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

On level 9 I let it pick the feat "Hidden Talent" giving it 2 PP and the option to get Psionic feats. On level 12 it qualifies for Psionic Meditation:


PSIONIC MEDITATION [PSIONIC]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Concentration 7 ranks.
Benefit: You can take a move action to become psionically focused.

Am I completely of board here?

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, your logic is solid, but this is expressly forbiden by the containment feat.

You can spend a full-round action attempting to psionically focus your psicrystal. At any time when you need to expend your psionic focus, you can expend your psicrystal’s psionic focus instead, as long as the crystal is within 5 feet of you. Psionically focusing your psicrystal works just like focusing yourself. The psicrystal cannot focus itself—only the owner can spend the time to focus the crystal.

[Ravitiate]

Thats true! These are two spesific rules though (in the whole exception beats spesific beats general rule hierarchy) - how does one decide which beats which?

[Fouredged Sword]

No, specific trumps general. You are using the general rules for recovering a psionic focus to get around the specific rules of psicrystal containment.

Once you take psicrystal containment, your psicrystal looses any ability to form a psionc focus on it's own.

[Rubik]

No, specific trumps general. You are using the general rules for recovering a psionic focus to get around the specific rules of psicrystal containment.

Once you take psicrystal containment, your psicrystal looses any ability to form a psionc focus on it's own.The two rules could potentially coexist if the psicrystal's personal focus is separate from the master's secondary focus; therefore, the psicrystal can focus itself, but it can't activate the focus that its master puts into it.

Thus, the psicrystal gains two focuses, but they're totally separate from each other.

[Draz74]

The two rules could potentially coexist if the psicrystal's personal focus is separate from the master's secondary focus; therefore, the psicrystal can focus itself, but it can't activate the focus that its master puts into it.

Thus, the psicrystal gains two focuses, but they're totally separate from each other.

This is how I've always read it, yeah.

[Ravitiate]

The two rules could potentially coexist if the psicrystal's personal focus is separate from the master's secondary focus; therefore, the psicrystal can focus itself, but it can't activate the focus that its master puts into it.

Thus, the psicrystal gains two focuses, but they're totally separate from each other.

While that's true, if the owner of the crystal can't expend the crystal's "own" focus, that focus ends up being useless right?

[TuggyNE]

While that's true, if the owner of the crystal can't expend the crystal's "own" focus, that focus ends up being useless right?

If the psicrystal has a focus on its own, it is, by definition, a psionic character and can (at least theoretically) do other useful things that way. For example, if you can get your psicrystal an at-will ranged attack, Psionic Shot is a nice little +2d6 every time by expending focus.

[Ravitiate]

I guess I'll just concede the plan about the Psicrystal meditating itself and find something else useful for it.

Back to the topic - so even with higher AC and HP, my friend was the one who died yesterday, so still no Psion in the game. I'm locking in the feats and hoping 2 pre-encounter focuses and 3 extra per day with Instant Clairity is sufficient in regards to deep impact/power attacking, with strikes and powers to back up in combat (and meditating as a move-action on 15).

As I've said I've never played a Psion and I'm having trouble with the powers, do you see any faults ?

Egoist (Psion-Magic transparancy):
1: Entangling Ectoplasm; Inertial Armor, Vigor, Offensive Precognition, n/a
2: Crystalstorm, Energy Adaptation (Specified), Share Pain, Empathic Transfer
3: Dispel Psionics, Time Hop, Touchsight, Hustle
4: Metamorphosis, Dimesion Door (Psionic), Freedom of Movement (Psionic), n/a
5: Anticipatory Strike, Major Creation (Psionic), Power Resistance,
6: Contingency (Psionic), Disintergrate (Psionic), Temporal Acceleration
7: Eye of the Basilisk, Fission, n/a
8: Bend Reality, Fusion, n/a
9: Metamorphosis (Greater), n/a, n/a

The biggest hole I can see is that I have few movement options, only Dimension Door really, and I'm not sure if several of my picks overlap each other.

Any help appriciated, thanks :)