Rules Query on Dispel

[Survy]

In a Pathfinder game i'm running, some of my players were hit by a Confusion spell. The wizard wanted to dispel it, and said since it was one spell affecting all of them, that targeting it would free everyone hit from the effects. We argued about it for awhile and finally I let it go, but i'm wondering how exactly it works in this situation.

[CyberThread]

The spell does not linger, the affect does. Break Enchantment, would have been the more appropriate choice.

[Douglas]

The spell does not linger, the affect does. Break Enchantment, would have been the more appropriate choice.
If that were true the spell's duration would be Instantaneous. It is not.

A single spell is affecting the whole party. Dispel Magic ends the entire spell. If the wizard succeeds on his dispel check, the whole party is no longer confused.

[CyberThread]

That would make no sense, lets say I caste confusion on the entire group.


One member walks down the hallway and magically gets hit with a dispel trap, the affect on that one person, would not affect everyone that has that affect on them.

[Douglas]

Actually, yes it would. That's just how multitarget spells and dispelling works in D&D. If the spell goes away, the entire spell goes away unless specifically and explicitly stated otherwise.

Casting Confusion on a group of 4 people does not create 4 copies of Confusion, each affecting 1 person; it creates a single Confusion spell that affects all 4 at once. To get the separate dispelling mechanic that you are describing, the wizard would have to cast Confusion 4 times, each time targeting just 1 person.

[TuggyNE]

I'm afraid douglas has it correct; any logic to the contrary, the game does not care how widely separated the subjects of a single spell now are, one successful dispel takes it off of all of them.

This is another reason why the mass wombat's boost spells are so terrible: not only are they level-inappropriate at that point for anything except minion-boosting, they can be efficiently stripped with an area dispel at very high probability (every subject caught in the area is another chance to pass the dispel check for the entire spell, after all).

[BowStreetRunner]

One exception is the Area Dispel works differently from a Targeted Dispel. (In PF the Area Dispel options is only available with the Greater Dispel Magic spell.) In this case there is a stated exception that for each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

Everywhere else the rules state that it dispels the entire spell.

[CyberThread]

From what am reading, from various spells as far as things like control weather, all the way down to area dispel spells.


This is what my conclusion comes to, the spell creates a status affect within each person, it does not "hover" as all or nothing spell, hence why each creature gets a DC save, and not all affected if one person shrugs it off.


While one spell is casted to create it, it fragmites if you do not dispel it during casting, meaning you need multiple dispels or break enchantments.



If RAW does as RAW says then fine, but it would see RAI is not the same.

[Darth Stabber]

If RAW does as RAW says then fine, but it would see RAI is not the same.
The best answer I have is "a wizard did it", though I can go into more detail to make this sound not as stupid.

The rules of magic are different from the laws of mundane reality, and smart wizards know how to exploit those differences. All things are tied together by strands of mystical essence that care not for three dimensional space, some times even the planes themselves serve no break in these connections. Dispel magic unweaves the threads created by the spell, thus ending the effect, and as the spell is one entity, the unweaving of one end causes the whole spell to fray and dissipate. Like pulling the threads of a doily will leave you only with strings, so to do you leave only magical background radiation when you start pulling apart the threads of spell.

[TuggyNE]

One exception is the Area Dispel works differently from a Targeted Dispel. (In PF the Area Dispel options is only available with the Greater Dispel Magic spell.) In this case there is a stated exception that for each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

Everywhere else the rules state that it dispels the entire spell.

True, but note that most mass buffs don't have an area*, so they don't count. (This is for things like cloudkill, I assume.)

*An exception is bless, which has a royally-brain-dead "Area: Caster and all allies within a 50' burst" line. I think this can safely be ignored as an atrocious anomaly and/or crime against nature.

[CyberThread]

well if am reading what I researched right, you can dispel things like control weather and the like, by dispelling the point of origin of casting? CAn you do that with bless also?

[herrhauptmann]

I'm afraid douglas has it correct; any logic to the contrary, the game does not care how widely separated the subjects of a single spell now are, one successful dispel takes it off of all of them.

So how would it work if a high level swiftblade cast haste to effect the whole party. For himself it's an EX ability, but everyone else it's just a regular haste spell.
One person gets dispelled, and haste disappears for the entire party (except the swiftblade)?

[Douglas]

So how would it work if a high level swiftblade cast haste to effect the whole party. For himself it's an EX ability, but everyone else it's just a regular haste spell.
One person gets dispelled, and haste disappears for the entire party (except the swiftblade)?
I think so, though there's some ambiguity in the wording of that ability - I could see an argument that the entire spell becomes Extraordinary, and thus it can't be dispelled at all on anyone. I don't think that's what the writer intended, but the wording as written could be stretched in that direction.

[TuggyNE]

well if am reading what I researched right, you can dispel things like control weather and the like, by dispelling the point of origin of casting? CAn you do that with bless also?

Yes; if you catch the point of origin in the area dispel, the whole thing might come down, but otherwise a 20'-radius sphere gets cut out of the bless area, and any affected in that area lose the effects.

[Diarmuid]

So what happens when a group of people all effected by the same suite of buff spells are all caught within the radius of an "Area Dispal"?



Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 30-foot radius.
For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature's magic items are not affected.
For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.
For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.
For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.
If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.


Fighter's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Bull's Strength CL7

Rogue's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Cat's Grace CL7

Cleric's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Owl's Wisdom CL7

Wizard's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Fox's Cunning CL7

In effect, each person is being impacted by the Dispel Magic simultaneously.

So the caster rolls against the Fighter's Haste and is successful. Does the Dispel Magic stop there as it was working against the Haste on everyone in the area to start, or does it then go on to target the rest of the party's stat buffs next (as those have the next highest CL)?

If the Haste was the only spell effecting all 4 characters, the Dispeller is in effect getting 4 chances to Dispel the whole Haste spell as opposed to a single chance to dispel it individually on each target.

RAW may support that, but in my game once a spell is cast it needs to be dispelled on each target individually unless the spell has a fixed range (Magic Circle Against Evil, etc).

[CyberThread]

area dispel only works on the top going down, and only dispels one thing, It is not a chain affect washing away every singlle thing you have.

Now I want to make a rustmonster, that has dispel magic as its food source.

[TuggyNE]

So what happens when a group of people all effected by the same suite of buff spells are all caught within the radius of an "Area Dispal"?



Fighter's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Bull's Strength CL7

Rogue's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Cat's Grace CL7

Cleric's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Owl's Wisdom CL7

Wizard's Buffs
Haste CL8, Bless CL6, Fox's Cunning CL7

In effect, each person is being impacted by the Dispel Magic simultaneously.

So the caster rolls against the Fighter's Haste and is successful. Does the Dispel Magic stop there as it was working against the Haste on everyone in the area to start, or does it then go on to target the rest of the party's stat buffs next (as those have the next highest CL)?

By RAW, I believe the latter; dispel magic affects each creature in the area independently, attempting to dispel effects until it gets one.

(Sorry, CyberDrag, I don't think you're right here.)


If the Haste was the only spell effecting all 4 characters, the Dispeller is in effect getting 4 chances to Dispel the whole Haste spell as opposed to a single chance to dispel it individually on each target.

RAW may support that, but in my game once a spell is cast it needs to be dispelled on each target individually unless the spell has a fixed range (Magic Circle Against Evil, etc).

Yeah, this is definitely RAW, but not necessarily sensible to stick with RAW, so my own preference would be to eliminate the bizarre interplanar link and just have the spell create effects on each target.

[Devronq]

Can anyone please quote any RAW that proves that dispelling a mass spell on one person removes that spell from all people effected. I'm completely sure it doesn't work this way.

[Darth Stabber]

Can anyone please quote any RAW that proves that dispelling a mass spell on one person removes that spell from all people effected. I'm completely sure it doesn't work this way.


If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.
emphasis mine.

Note it says spell, not the effect, the spell. A mass bull's strength is not several instances bull's strength, it's one spell.

[Douglas]

Can anyone please quote any RAW that proves that dispelling a mass spell on one person removes that spell from all people effected. I'm completely sure it doesn't work this way.
If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)

"that spell", not "the part of that spell that is on the targeted creature"


area dispel only works on the top going down, and only dispels one thing, It is not a chain affect washing away every singlle thing you have.

Now I want to make a rustmonster, that has dispel magic as its food source.
On any single person, yes, but in the case of mass buffs a success on one person has consequences that carry over to the rest.

In the example given, it checks the fighter and (let's say the check succeeds) dispels Haste. On the fighter it stops there, but since it's a single spell Haste is also gone from everyone else. Then on the rogue, Haste is already gone so it checks Cat's Grace first (let's go with a failure). It proceeds to check against Bless, succeeds, and since it's a single spell strips it from everyone. On the cleric, all that's left is to check Owl's Wisdom, and likewise the wizard has Fox's Cunning. End result, the fighter still has Bull's Strength, the rogue still has Cat's Grace, and the cleric and wizard may or may not have Owl's Wisdom and Fox's Cunning, respectively, depending on those dispel checks. Haste and Bless are gone for everyone.

Note this particular example is for the 3.5 version of Dispel Magic. Pathfinder restricts the area version to Greater Dispel Magic only, and also makes it a single roll instead of separate rolls for everything. This difference is not relevant to the OP's question, but may be important for this later example.

[TuggyNE]

If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)

"that spell", not "the part of that spell that is on the targeted creature"


On any single person, yes, but in the case of mass buffs a success on one person has consequences that carry over to the rest.

In the example given, it checks the fighter and (let's say the check succeeds) dispels Haste. On the fighter it stops there, but since it's a single spell Haste is also gone from everyone else. Then on the rogue, Haste is already gone so it checks Cat's Grace first (let's go with a failure). It proceeds to check against Bless, succeeds, and since it's a single spell strips it from everyone. On the cleric, all that's left is to check Owl's Wisdom, and likewise the wizard has Fox's Cunning. End result, the fighter still has Bull's Strength, the rogue still has Cat's Grace, and the cleric and wizard may or may not have Owl's Wisdom and Fox's Cunning, respectively, depending on those dispel checks. Haste and Bless are gone for everyone.

Note this particular example is for the 3.5 version of Dispel Magic. Pathfinder restricts the area version to Greater Dispel Magic only, and also makes it a single roll instead of separate rolls for everything. This difference is not relevant to the OP's question, but may be important for this later example.

This is essentially correct, but note that bless can only be dispelled in its entirety if the origin point is within the area; otherwise it just cuts a dispel magic-shaped hole in the effect. Of course, by all rights bless should not have that absurd Area, but I've complained about that already.

[Diarmuid]

If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)

"that spell", not "the part of that spell that is on the targeted creature"


On any single person, yes, but in the case of mass buffs a success on one person has consequences that carry over to the rest.

In the example given, it checks the fighter and (let's say the check succeeds) dispels Haste. On the fighter it stops there, but since it's a single spell Haste is also gone from everyone else. Then on the rogue, Haste is already gone so it checks Cat's Grace first (let's go with a failure). It proceeds to check against Bless, succeeds, and since it's a single spell strips it from everyone. On the cleric, all that's left is to check Owl's Wisdom, and likewise the wizard has Fox's Cunning. End result, the fighter still has Bull's Strength, the rogue still has Cat's Grace, and the cleric and wizard may or may not have Owl's Wisdom and Fox's Cunning, respectively, depending on those dispel checks. Haste and Bless are gone for everyone.

Note this particular example is for the 3.5 version of Dispel Magic. Pathfinder restricts the area version to Greater Dispel Magic only, and also makes it a single roll instead of separate rolls for everything. This difference is not relevant to the OP's question, but may be important for this later example.

My problem with this is you're arbitrarily applying some kind of order of operation to the way the Dispel is working. If the argument for mass spells being dispelled by a single instance, then you cant have it work counter to that for the dispel itself.

In my example all 4 characters are being effected by the same Dispel Magic at the exact same time. There is no way for the "instance of the effect" on the Rogue to wait until the Fighter's resolves to determine if it should be going after the Haste or the Cat's Grace simply because you decided to roll that one first.

[Segev]

Note that Dispel only takes out spells in its area, even sparing PARTS of spell areas that are outside its AoE.

Targeted dispel on a creature or object has THAT CREATURE OR OBJECT as the Dispel's area. Parts of the spell outside it (e.g. the Mass Bull's Strength effect on another character) are unaffected.

If you target a spell, however, specifically, and that spell lies in range of the Dispel, its area is that spell, and it will take out the whole thing.

[Diarmuid]

Segev, that only applies to spells with "Area" effects as opposed to Targetted effects.



Magic Circle against Evil
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Clr 3, Good 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation from touched creature
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No; see text


Note the "Area: 10-ft.-radius emenation from touched creature" entry as opposed to Bull's Strength, Mass:



Bull's Strength, Mass
(Player's Handbook v.3.5, p. 207)

Transmutation
Level: Cleric 6, Druid 6, Sorcerer 6, Wizard 6, Sha'ir 6, Urban Druid 6,
Components:
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

This spell functions like bull's strength, except that it affects multiple creatures.


Rather than an "Area:..." entry, it has "Target:..." and so is not (technically by RAW) impacted by those specific rules for Dispel Magic.

[ksbsnowowl]

This is essentially correct, but note that bless can only be dispelled in its entirety if the origin point is within the area; otherwise it just cuts a dispel magic-shaped hole in the effect. Of course, by all rights bless should not have that absurd Area, but I've complained about that already.

Yeah, Bless' area is an oddity. They should have just said all allies within 50 feet.

Still, there's a way to properly interpret it and get at what it was intended to do, I think.


Bless
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Clr 1, Pal 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 50 ft.
Area: The caster and all allies within a 50-ft. burst, centered on the caster
Duration: 1 min./level
...


Burst, Emanation, or Spread

Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.


It isn't stated explicitly, but the contrast between bursts and emanations tells us that bursts are instantaneous; they don't continue to radiate from the point of origin.

The burst "affects whatever it catches in its area." If you were in the area at the time the spell was cast, you are affected, even if you then depart farther than 50 feet from the cleric. If you weren't in the area at the time of casting, and you enter later, you are not affected, because the effect does not continue to radiate from the caster.

How they should have listed the duration line for the spell is "Duration: Instantaneous and 1 min./level," but oh well. We can still get there through the rules, even if they could have made the rules a lot more clear on the issue.

Ergo, area dispel has no effect on Bless, as far as the potential to cut a hole in the area. But, tagging one person and dispelling the Bless on him would indeed end the spell for all recipients.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, Bless' area is an oddity. They should have just said all allies within 50 feet.

Apparently they wanted the LOE semantics of a burst. But that's easily achievable: "Target: The caster and all allies within a 50-ft. burst, centered on the caster".


It isn't stated explicitly, but the contrast between bursts and emanations tells us that bursts are instantaneous; they don't continue to radiate from the point of origin.

The burst "affects whatever it catches in its area." If you were in the area at the time the spell was cast, you are affected, even if you then depart farther than 50 feet from the cleric. If you weren't in the area at the time of casting, and you enter later, you are not affected, because the effect does not continue to radiate from the caster.

True, but given the way dispel magic is worded, I'm not sure it makes a difference.

Mind you, I'm not saying that bless is an emanation, but that an area dispel only affects those in the overlap — so unlike most mass buff spells, you actually affect only those that the dispel hits directly. Of course, that doesn't apply to a targeted dispel, which takes the whole thing down as usual.

OTOH, this is all basically (in computer-speak for a bit) trying to figure out what code a buffer overflow hits, but for any practical game it's best to skip straight to "safe string copy" and forget trying to trace all the bizarre quirks of the bug. :smallwink: