[PF] Level 1 Magus Halp

[lawnchaircrisis]

I haven't played pathfinder often, as such I could really use some advice/ideas and overall help making a character.

It's a level 1 Magus and I'm allowed to use almost anything from http://www.d20pfsrd.com/ as long as it isn't ridiculously overpowered.
I can also have 2 traits.

Vague enough? :smallsmile:

[Andvare]

A couple of guides:

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1DB6sOfbAzFmKVPgcyLWipTVqvWFjfDSv6v_YiGQb5Y w&pli=1
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fSJuL1O4hs15NMk-y4MXbH9D_qt9V7iwhY2y9HDrs74/edit

They should tell you most things you want to know, otherwise check back.

[lawnchaircrisis]

Awesome, I'll check those out.

Thanks :smallsmile:

[watchwood]

If you play fully optimized, your damage output can be excessive. Unless the rest of your party is running similar levels of broken, you should generally try to hold back the really big guns unless you really need them.

:P

[Zubrowka74]

See also this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293212).

[Eldonauran]

Do you want to be able to deliver touch spells from 15ft away? My favorite low-level magus combination is spiked guantlet + whip. Allows for your Spell Combat to be used effectively, leave you able to strike when AoO appears and keeps you out of the front line most of the time.

With this setup, you can easily use a buckler, use touch attacks to deliver your spells at range and even use your whip to deliver buff spells to your allies (+1 AC or +3 natural AC takes no damage from the whip). The image of cracking your whip at the barbarian, it bouncing off his head (no dmg) and suddenly he doubles in size as Enlarge person takes effect, is delightful.

Trait1: Heirloom weapon (whip), gives free proficiency with whip
Trait2: Magical Lineage (shocking grasp), for 10d6 dmg shocking grasp at higher levels, with only a 1st level spell slot

Do take the Hexcrafter archetype and deliver touch spells from 15 ft away, while you Cackle to keep your Evil Eye hex active. Watch the morale of your enemies plummet! Plus, cursing someone with a whip strike is awesome.

[Andvare]

Trait1: Heirloom weapon (whip), gives free proficiency with whip

Actually, it doesn't. It gives proficiency with that specific weapon, so if you ever lose it, it is a wasted trait.

[lawnchaircrisis]

The image of cracking your whip at the barbarian, it bouncing off his head (no dmg) and suddenly he doubles in size as Enlarge person takes effect, is delightful.
.

That is a truly beautiful image.


Actually, it doesn't. It gives proficiency with that specific weapon, so if you ever lose it, it is a wasted trait.

That's a very good point, it'd be a bit awkward if I lost it.

I really like the sound of it though. Is it worth investing a feat into using a whip?

[Andvare]

I really like the sound of it though. Is it worth investing a feat into using a whip?

If you like the sound of it, it is worth it. Roleplaying/Minds eye concepts beats optimization any day of the week. Besides, the Magus is a strong enough class that you can optimize your way out of such little things.

I'd go with full Dex Magus then, get weapon finesse ASAP, and focus on one of either Disarm or Trip combat manoeuvres. Probably trip, but it depends on the campaign. Get a Scorpion Whip (same proficiency), and you won't have to think about dealing non-lethal damage. Get Maneuver Mastery, then trip stuff or kill stuff depending on your whim (not everything can be tripped).
Or, if you are in a campaign with plenty of humanoid opponents, a disarm attack is devastating to most enemies, especially if your companions get wise, and pick up the weapon. Unfortunately, there are plenty of ways to counter it, but then you can just fall back on the awesome damage potential of Shocking Grasp, the standard Magus damage spell for a reason.

Edit: What you can do, is be a Half-Elf, and get the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait, and take whip as your weapon, or just be human and get an extra feat.

[Eldonauran]

Actually, it doesn't. It gives proficiency with that specific weapon, so if you ever lose it, it is a wasted trait.

Don't lose the weapon then? There are many ways to prevent loss/theft of a whip. Who would steal it anyway? Its not like you need a magical one, just use your arcane pool for the extra to hit you might need to hit something. It is a touch attack after all.


Edit: What you can do, is be a Half-Elf, and get the Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait, and take whip as your weapon, or just be human and get an extra feat.

Actually, this, if you don't want to spend a feat and want to pass up a racial trait. It is better than having a chance to have a useless trait.

[Andvare]

Don't lose the weapon then? There are many ways to prevent loss/theft of a whip. Who would steal it anyway? Its not like you need a magical one, just use your arcane pool for the extra to hit you might need to hit something. It is a touch attack after all.

There's a lot of ways to lose one's weapon, being jailed, having to leave your weapon when meeting the Duke, the camp guard sleeping on duty ect. It depends on the GM and campaign style, and not all of it you can guarantee against.
However, even baring that, you can't just get it enchanted, as it isn't a masterwork item (it used to be, but then the trait got the nerfbat), so you'd have to get a Masterwork Transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/masterwork-transformation) spell, and cast it on the whip. Definitely not impossible, but an added cost, and if you are in a long out-of-town campaign, where your fellow adventures and loot are the only source of magical items, and have no cleric with you, then it might not even be feasible.
There are also those campaigns where the magical items are restricted to what you find.

While these examples might not be the normal standard, there certainly are campaigns where no such thing would occur, I have no way of knowing what the campaign in question will be, so at least it would be smart to talk with your GM beforehand, as a lost trait is kinda sucky.

Edit: There are all kinds of good enchantments besides tohit, Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile) for example.

[Eldonauran]

There's a lot of ways to lose one's weapon, being jailed, having to leave your weapon when meeting the Duke, the camp guard sleeping on duty ect. It depends on the GM and campaign style, and not all of it you can guarantee against.
Those examples are more descriptive of a temporary seperation from the weapon, as you tend to get those back after you serve your time/leave the duke's presence, but I do see your point.

However, even baring that, you can't just get it enchanted, as it isn't a masterwork item (it used to be, but then the trait got the nerfbat), so you'd have to get a Masterwork Transformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/masterwork-transformation) spell, and cast it on the whip. Definitely not impossible, but an added cost, and if you are in a long out-of-town campaign, where your fellow adventures and loot are the only source of magical items, and have no cleric with you, then it might not even be feasible.
That is a great spell and should definitely be the goal of someone with this trait. A magus can use his arcane spell pool to make his weapon magical for the brief periods they are away from town (for the fights, anyway).


There are also those campaigns where the magical items are restricted to what you find.
Yes, which is why you build your character around the campaign you are going to play in. Don't use the trait if you know it will be a bad idea. It has a niche usefulness. It is not the answer to all the problems.


While these examples might not be the normal standard, there certainly are campaigns where no such thing would occur, I have no way of knowing what the campaign in question will be, so at least it would be smart to talk with your GM beforehand, as a lost trait is kinda sucky.
Exactly. The trait was only a suggestion. If you can get the weapon prof another way, without the use of a feat (cause who wants to do that!), go for it.


Edit: There are all kinds of good enchantments besides tohit, Agile (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/agile) for example.
This should be the first +1 ability enhancement a dex based Magus should put on his whip. He can add flaming with arcane pool later.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The first thing you need to decide is if you're going Str Magus or Dex Magus. If the latter, Weapon Finesse is your level 1 feat, and you need to work towards Dervish Dance feat as soon as possible.

In the long run, Dex is better, but it costs more feats and has a rougher start. Also, while there are many +int/dex races, there are no "genius bruiser" races for +str/int, and +str options are slim pickings in general, that's also a benefit of doing a dex build. Tiefling is the best race for that, it has perfect stat mods and great variant traits; the prehensile tail is one of the few ways to use a metamagic rod while doing Spell Combat, short of actually gaining a 3rd arm.

Next, decide if you want to go for the Crane Wing feat. It's perfect for you since you need an empty hand anyway, but it costs 4 feats to get, so you need to start early. Much easier for Str Magus to aim for.

You should also look at the Hexcrafter. It is by FAR the best magus archetype, and you may well want it. The only downside is that getting hexes will (notice a pattern here?) hit your feats hard. The best hexes to get are Slumber (its just insane), Prehensile Hair (deliver touch spells from reach), and Flight (because...it's flight). Avoid any that work off of Cackle; you lack both the combat actions and the feats/arcana to go that route.

As for weapon, early on it really doesn't matter as long as you don't foolishly* spend a feat for one. After a few levels, you should switch over to an 18-20 weapon like the scimitar. The added crit damage from spells is better than a slightly higher base damage on some other sword. By level 5, you can use arcana to make it keen for 15-20 and really tear things up with Shocking Grasp and Frigid Touch.

*Because you're already proficient with one of the best, if not the best, Magus weapons.

[lawnchaircrisis]

Don't use the trait if you know it will be a bad idea. It has a niche usefulness. It is not the answer to all the problems.

I know the GM rather well, he's lost important items in campaigns on many occasions and hates it. I'm pretty sure if I lost it he'd give me the chance to get it back. By the sounds of it I need all the feats I can get so I may risk the trait.



Or, if you are in a campaign with plenty of humanoid opponents, a disarm attack is devastating to most enemies, especially if your companions get wise, and pick up the weapon.

There is going to be a lot of humanoid enemies.
I'm guessing there's a feat to improve disarm?



In the long run, Dex is better, but it costs more feats and has a rougher start.

Both you and Andvare have suggested Dex, which I already had a preference for, in which case I'll go for a Tiefling.
Do Tieflings have access to a trait which gives whip proficiency?



Next, decide if you want to go for the Crane Wing feat. It's perfect for you since you need an empty hand anyway, but it costs 4 feats to get, so you need to start early.

This combined with hexcrafter? These both use up a lot of feats and I'm not sure I'll want to invest that many into it, unless you think it's really worth it? The real problem is I don't know how long this campaign will be running for so I don't want to get to Crane Riposte and then have it end.


*Because you're already proficient with one of the best, if not the best, Magus weapons.

Which weapon is that?

[Daftendirekt]

Which weapon is that?

Scimitar, as he mentioned, because of its high crit range (also check out the Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat) feat). Other standouts would be the rapier, the urumi, or the falcata. The latter 2 are exotic, though, so may not be worth it unless you play human/half-elf.

[Andvare]

There is going to be a lot of humanoid enemies.
I'm guessing there's a feat to improve disarm?

Yes, it's called Improved Disarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-disarm-combat---final). :smallwink:

And Greater Disarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-disarm-combat---final) and Disarming Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/disarming-strike-combat) would also be interesting.



Both you and Andvare have suggested Dex, which I already had a preference for, in which case I'll go for a Tiefling.
Do Tieflings have access to a trait which gives whip proficiency?

No, but they do get the opportunity to get a prehensile tail, via an alternate racial trait, which can carry items. It cannot carry weapons nor shields, but you can use rods, which is tremendously helpful later on, when you can afford them.




This combined with hexcrafter? These both use up a lot of feats and I'm not sure I'll want to invest that many into it, unless you think it's really worth it? The real problem is I don't know how long this campaign will be running for so I don't want to get to Crane Riposte and then have it end.

You don't nessesarily have to use extra feats as a hexcrafter, it just makes your hexes more effective.
I'd say forego the hexcrafter, it is very nice, but you might want to not make your character too complex, if you aren't that familiar with the rules.
You should probably decide want you want your Magus to do, and if you want to go Scimitar/othermorestandardweapon or whip.

Hexcrafter is good, but you lose access Spell Recall, which is the way the Magus can sustain it's very high damage output. In return you get some hexes, which are more than a fair trade, especially the slumber hex is powerful, single target sleep, with no HD limit. Considdering that Sleep is one of the most powerful spells at low levels, and would be one of the most powerful spells at all if it didn't have a HD limit. And you can use it all the time. There are often complains about this particular hex over at the Paizo forums for this reason. I would advise you strongly to not choose both Hexcrafter and whip-user, as those that you can hit with Slumber, are those you can disarm, whereas those that you cannot disarm, are often immune to sleep/mindeffects.
If you want to use the hexcrafter, go with a simple scimitar build (weapon finesse + dervish dance), that way you can afford some feats to support the hexes. ANd if you then have some left over, you can then use those for either crane style, a familiar, or whatever.

[lawnchaircrisis]

I just found out my GM is giving everyone Combat Expertise, Power Attack and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats.
Does this open up any better first feats?


Yes, it's called Improved Disarm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-disarm-combat---final). :smallwink:

:smallbiggrin:



No, but they do get the opportunity to get a prehensile tail, via an alternate racial trait, which can carry items. It cannot carry weapons nor shields, but you can use rods, which is tremendously helpful later on, when you can afford them.


Okay, that's one trait down :smallsmile:


If you want to use the hexcrafter, go with a simple scimitar build (weapon finesse + dervish dance), that way you can afford some feats to support the hexes. ANd if you then have some left over, you can then use those for either crane style, a familiar, or whatever.

I'm thinking of going with this now, mainly because I've been 'given' Weapon Finesse :smallsmile:

[Daftendirekt]

Okay, that's one trait down :smallsmile:


For the other trait, get Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) and apply it to Shocking Grasp. Then have fun applying Intensified Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic) and getting 10d6 damage from a first level spell.

NOTE: Intensified, not Intensify (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/meta/intensify-spell-metamagic). That's a totally different, 3rd party, crappy feat.

[Elricaltovilla]

Its important to note that the Prehensile Tail thing is an alternate racial trait. Not the same thing as a trait like Magical Lineage.

You're giving up one of the racial features of the standard Tiefling (in this case Fiendish Sorcery, which you're never going to use) and replacing it with a different racial ability (the prehensile tail).

So if you take Magical Lineage (and you definitely should) you still have one more trait to pick. I suggest looking for one that will boost one of your saves or add a new skill to your class skills.

[Eldonauran]

Hexcrafter is good, but you lose access Spell Recall, which is the way the Magus can sustain it's very high damage output.

You still get Spell Recall, it is only delayed to when you normally get Improved Spell Recall. Also, get and make heavy use of the level pearls of power. They go a long way to make up for delay of Spell Recall. Hell, take Craft Wondrous Item and make them yourself for 500gp.

[Claudius Maximus]

So if you take Magical Lineage (and you definitely should) you still have one more trait to pick. I suggest looking for one that will boost one of your saves or add a new skill to your class skills.

You can always take Wayang Spellhunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) and free Empower your Shocking Grasps. Heck, it technically lacks the FAQ restriction on Magical Lineage, so an Intensified Shocking Grasp could be put in a 0-level slot. It doesn't count as a cantrip as far as I can tell, and would thus be expended upon casting, but 3-5 extra Intensified Shocking Grasps in a day is certainly nice for the price of two traits.

[Daftendirekt]

Erm, you know Empower is +2 right? So with Magical Lineage AND Wayang Spell Hunter (or Metamagic Master as the PFSRD calls it) as your 2 traits, yes you could Empower it as a 1st level spell (or hell, Empowered and Intensified as 2nd level)

[Elricaltovilla]

I would say use wayang spell hunter on shocking grasp and magical knack on a different touch spell, like vampiric touch.

[lawnchaircrisis]

Then have fun applying Intensified Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/intensified-spell-metamagic) and getting 10d6 damage from a first level spell.


That does look fun :smallamused:


You can always take Wayang Spellhunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) and free Empower your Shocking Grasps. Heck, it technically lacks the FAQ restriction on Magical Lineage, so an Intensified Shocking Grasp could be put in a 0-level slot. It doesn't count as a cantrip as far as I can tell, and would thus be expended upon casting, but 3-5 extra Intensified Shocking Grasps in a day is certainly nice for the price of two traits.

So I put the Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage traits on Shocking Grasp as well as the Empower feat? And then put Intensify on it when I can?

[Hruken]

Yes, both traits can stack on the same spell, and allow you to add more metamagic, or you can apply them to separate spells, giving you more flexibility. Your choice, it depends on if you want to have a more powerful single trick, or more versatility.

And while wayang spellhunter does lack the FAQ restriction, the intent is clear enough that most DMs will likely hit you with a book if you try to prepare a first level spell as a cantrip.

[stack]

Fun with the whip magus: wand wielder arcana + wand of true strike. Spell combat for +18 (+20 true strike -2 spell combat) to your maneuver checks (disarm + trip). Then you don't bother getting the improved maneuver feats, just 5' step away. By the time that trick isn't sufficient, you won't be getting much mileage out of maneuvers anyhow and will have plenty of other things to do.