[3.5] Diablo2-Style Katar warrior, help!

[ccjmk]

Hello everyone! I'm first-time new to D&D, and i'm starting to plan my first character ever to get into a friend's online-DMed campaign.

After reading a little and discarding some other appealing -to me at least- choices like being a Warlock or using a shield/buckler & short spears/javelins, I think i'm definitely settled for making a two-weapon Punching Dagger warrior, A La Assassin from Diablo II, as a clear reference.

So my idea would be:

a) using two Punching Daggers; so some class able to handle two-weapon-fighting moderately efficiently is required.
b) I might like to be sneaky and classy, going for the throat of my enemies from the shadows or above and try to get a quick kill, OR I might just zergrush into combat with all my frenzy.. in this case, I guess some sort of evasion/not-getting-me-instantly-killed method is required.
c) I don't want to be at all a max-optimized character.. i'm new around, and I really don't need to be THE BEST MEELE ON THE WORLD, i just need to be adequately effective as to be able to kill stuff and don't get killed in the process.
d) Try to avoid homebrewed things as much as possible; If some minor tweaks might be arranged with the GM that could be fine, but try to keep them to a minimum


Hence, with all said, I hope you can help me figure this out, you wise, great people!

[ArcturusV]

Well, the classic answer to this is to go Rogue into either the Assassin PrC, or one of the "Assassin likes" PrCs like Slayer of Dominel, or the WotC April Fool's PrC Avenger.

Sneak attack is basically the Go To answer for high damage if you're using a two weapon style. Being able to add Xd6 per attack, when you get extra attacks, helps make up the difference in raw melee damage compared to taking a two handed weapon and power attack charge pounce shock trooper sort of stuff.

You will of course get all your sneaky skills. And going into Assassin, Slayer of Dominel, Avenger, etc, will give you spell access, with most of the spells being tailor fitted to the stealth warrior aspect. And really at higher levels you're going to need that magic to help sneak past your targets.

You might want to consider the Sohei Class (In part or in whole) as part of your build as well. While it's not a "Sneaky" class, it's Ki Frenzy ability would work well with two weaponing. Minor spell access later on. It can use medium armors, so you won't be too terribly squishy. As Ki Frenzy counts as "rage" for various effects like Extra Rage feats, or PrCs with Rage prerequisites, it could open up new options for you if you wanted to go less into the stealth arena and more into the Zerg Rush mode.

Sources by the way: Rogue, Player's handbook, Assassin, Dungeon Master's Guild, Avenger, (Note that it was an April Fool's column, so your DM may not allow it) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a , Slayer of Dominel, Book of Exalted Deeds, Sohei, Oriental Adventures.

[Psyren]

You should probably try to be a gish (read: melee character who uses magic) of some kind. D2 Assassins use lots of blasting, abjurations and illusions.

Daggerspell Mage is good for this concept - it advances your casting and sneak attack, as well as giving you the ability to cast spells while you have your punch-daggers occupying each hand. This will help you simulate the lightning and other casting abilities of a trapsin.

[ccjmk]

Thanks a lot for the tip!

About the Sohei, from what i've read it seems like a watered-down version of the Fighter with Barbarian/Monk feel&look, but the Ki Power is like a "no STR, no CON, no Morale" rage.

How does the Ki Focus (2th level Sohei, "spend one daily use of her ki power to focus") with Rage, that is used once per-encounter, X times a day ? Could i eventually go for lv2 Sohei, and then progress as a Barbarian for the feats, or as a regular Fighter, and still keep leveling the Ki Power ?

[ccjmk]

You should probably try to be a gish (read: melee character who uses magic) of some kind. D2 Assassins use lots of blasting, abjurations and illusions.

Daggerspell Mage is good for this concept - it advances your casting and sneak attack, as well as giving you the ability to cast spells while you have your punch-daggers occupying each hand. This will help you simulate the lightning and other casting abilities of a trapsin.

Actually my most interest is with dual slash-flurry of deadly blows & stabs with the Katars/Punching Daggers. The magic might come handy, but it was not part of the flavor I was looking for initially, though i would read about it! Thanks

[Eldaran]

Given the way katar assassins work in D2, I'd highly recommend checking out the Swordsage from Tome of Battle. Their strikes almost perfectly emulate the way D2 Sins work, including getting explosions of fire, teleporting around and kicking enemies in the face, and just flat out mauling people with your katars.

[ccjmk]

Given the way katar assassins work in D2, I'd highly recommend checking out the Swordsage from Tome of Battle. Their strikes almost perfectly emulate the way D2 Sins work, including getting explosions of fire, teleporting around and kicking enemies in the face, and just flat out mauling people with your katars.

The Swordsage sounds really interesting! I'm a little bit confused about how maneuvers and stances work though, I should give it some more reading

[hamishspence]

If you haven't already got Tome of Battle, there's a couple of WOTC excerpts from it that might give you a general idea:

The Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)

Iron Heart Manuevers & Stances (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=4)

[ArcturusV]

Well, the Ki Frenzy also gives you Flurry of Blows and additional Dex (If you're going Rogue with TWF, your Dex is probably primary and you should look into Weapon Finesse at least), so you can squeeze out another attack or two. It's not optimal, Flurry of Blows type stuff never is. But it's an option.

So if you go something like Rogue X/Sohei 2/Assassinish PrC, you're not going to wow anyone who knows a thing or two about optimization, but after the table it'll probably look fairly impressive when your level 10 character is going, "Okay, I Ki Frenzy, I attack this guy I flanked, I throw out 7 attacks with 3d6 extra damage on each attack".

[Eldaran]

The Swordsage sounds really interesting! I'm a little bit confused about how maneuvers and stances work though, I should give it some more reading

You get a certain number based on your level. So at Swordsage 3 you'd have 8 known and 5 readied. That means, you pick 8 maneuvers, 7 of which would be 1st level and 1 of which would be 2nd level, which you know permanently. Then you pick 5 to ready (which takes 5 minutes to do) then whenever you go into combat you have those 5 maneuvers to choose from. Stances are just an effect you keep on all the time

On your turn you can choose which of those 5 maneuvers you want to use, so say you have Shadow Jaunt, you could use your standard action to teleport 50 feet. Or if you have Hatchling's Flame you throw at blast of fire at your enemies and they make a reflex save.

[ccjmk]

Wow, then maneuvers and stances sound really exciting.. I'll give them a read; but it I can simply choose a stance that boosts X or Y characteristic, and have several maneuvers available, then I can swap with ease between a stealthy approach, and a zerg rush zealotry

[Rebel7284]

Swordsage is pretty great.

There are a couple of 1 level dips that could be useful too:

- Barbarian 1 with whirling frenzy rage variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm) and the Lion Totem alternate class feature (Complete Champion.) for Pounce.

- Fighter 1 with the drow of the underdark substitution that allows for dexterity to damage against flat footed opponents.

But if you don't want to look through 5 books, just pure swordsage is plenty effective.

[ccjmk]

So if i'm getting this right, i could make a pure Swordsage, and pick mostly Tiger Claw stances & maneuvers for going bananas with TWF damage from my katars, and use mostly Shadow Hand for sneaky kills?

[Rebel7284]

So if i'm getting this right, i could make a pure Swordsage, and pick mostly Tiger Claw stances & maneuvers for going bananas with TWF damage from my katars, and use mostly Shadow Hand for sneaky kills?

Indeed. You can pick up the feat that adds dex to damage too. Sneak up invisibly, hit for a lot of damage, then sudden leap away. :)

[RúsëaMenci]

This homebrew Viz-Jaq'taar prestige class (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Viz-Jaq%27taar) is designed for Swordsages who would emulate Diablo II's assassins. I've used it for one of my favorite characters, was a lot of fun.

[ccjmk]

This homebrew Viz-Jaq'taar prestige class (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Viz-Jaq%27taar) is designed for Swordsages who would emulate Diablo II's assassins. I've used it for one of my favorite characters, was a lot of fun.

Thanks RúsëaMenci but i will better stay away from homebrewed stuff for now; not only I'm rather new around to judge if something is balanced or not, but also my DM won't probably allow it.

[pilvento]

I am also a big fan of ToB and tiger claw is probably the best way to go, but if its your first game i recomend yo to put ToB aside, i dont know if the rest of the party is also making their first characters so you dont want to be looking over your maneuvers every encounter while your friends are limited to charge that, punch that.

If you want to give it a look, you can make a resilent character and still have the feel you are looking for. may i recomend swashbuckler + rouge (darning outlaw feat makes their features stack) and then go for invisible blade (a presicion dagger fighter) you have geat int sinergy and presition dmg from either flanking or feints. if your DM takes away the misplaced req feats of invisible blade (point blank, far shot) even better.

You can also forget about the presition dmg and go full str and use clases like ranger, barbarian, prc like tempest or exotic weapon master. ive been there man, in my group im the katar guy since we started playing 5 years ago, every now and then i have this idea of "i can make punching daggers look usefull" cause noone needs to make em look cool, thats why we chose em.

[Chronos]

Quoth Eldaran:

Given the way katar assassins work in D2, I'd highly recommend checking out the Swordsage from Tome of Battle. Their strikes almost perfectly emulate the way D2 Sins work, including getting explosions of fire, teleporting around and kicking enemies in the face, and just flat out mauling people with your katars.
Yes and no. Swordsages do have the special-effects budget of a D2 assassin, but they don't really have anything resembling the charge-up-and-then-unleash-charges nature of the assassin's skills. The only thing like that I know of in D&D is the Stormguard Warrior feat (conveniently, also found in Tome of Battle).

[ccjmk]

..Swordsages.. ..don't really have anything resembling the charge-up-and-then-unleash-charges nature of the assassin's skills.

No problem there Chronos, my most interest is the stab&slash thingy with double non-longsword weapons, not the charges. BUUUT I will definitely check on that feat u mentioned :P