Hello world!/[PF]Paladin concept

[PowerToTheMax]

Hi guys!
First of all: it's been a long time since my last D&D session, and I got a new group, so I thought: let's do things right. So I thought: "Sign up in your favorite d&d-comic's forum and get some advice on your character concept".

So, it all comes down to this:
I am and always have been a roleplaying kind of guy, so we are talking "style over substance". However, I want something playable, that can have an impact on the game. Our party is a party of 5, the others are:
Thief, Sorcerer, Druid (Casterblaster), Barbarian

So I thought the party needs some more frontline and healing potential. That boils down the choice to paladin or cleric, i took pala.

My supposed build (20P):
Human
ST 15+2
DEX 15
CO 14
IN 10
WI 7
CH 14


Traits: Armor Expert
Indomitable Faith

Feat, Stats and Lvl progression:
Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 1 Shield Focus, TWF
Fighter (Armor Expert) 1 Missile Shield
Pa 2 Double Slice
Fi 2 Improved Shield Bash; +1 Str
Pa 3-18 Down the Shield Bash tree; Maybe Toughness and Leadership

So, what do you think

[Ailowynn]

First off, welcome to the Playground!

Now then. The build looks good, but the feats...not so much. Shield bashing deals little to no damage, and, statistically speaking, two-weapon fighting is worse than two-handed fighting. A TWFer with two short swords will have two attacks for 2d6 damage, at a -2 to both, and maybe a full STR bonus to both. A guy with Power Attack and a greatsword will do 2d6+STR+power attack damage. More damage, fewer feats.

Also, since you're a Paladin, you want to focus on as few stats as possible and keep them all high. STR, CHA, and CON are what you want, and two-weapon fighting requires high DEX, too.

Shield Focus is okay as a prerequisite for other feats, but not that great on its own. +1 AC is great at first level, but useless at 20th.

[PowerToTheMax]

Thx for the warm welcome and the advice. I thought I'd get the damage from smiting and an enchanted shield of bashing at some time - loads of attacks=loads of smiting damage? I just really liked the sword and board idea, but you say it's not worth it? The shield focus was to get missile shield quickly -at low levels, I thought arrows are a nice thing to stop + shield mastery requires it, so I thought I'd better pick it up early...
Isn't a greatsword pally too squishy?

[Hylas]

Isn't a greatsword pally too squishy?

Don't let grarrrg hear you say that, or else you might find yourself with 3 levels of oracle.

A paladin can, as a swift action, use lay on hands on themselves, making them one of the least squishy targets in the game. There are various ways to buff this, my favorite being the feats greater mercy and fey foundling. Ultimate mercy can be fun as well if you're into "free" raise dead.

If you're looking to maximize your damage output I recommend either greatsword, your favorite reach weapon, or ranged attacks. Two handed weapons are a given, and ranged attacks will let you take advantage of rapid shot, many shot, and the bonus to smite damage, which you are correct in saying that smite evil is best off with multiple attacks. If you want to be very focused on smiting then pick up the Oath of Vengeance archetype.

[PowerToTheMax]

So, if I were to switch to THF, would
a) the fighter dip still be worth it? I looked into it to get the TWF feats early on.
b) a feat progression somewhat along these lines be sensible (assuming the fighter dip):
1) Power Attack+Toughness
2) Cleave
3) Extra Lay on Hands
4) Cleaving Finish

[doko239]

Paladin is one of those classes that can get away with TWF as opposed to THF, assuming your target is evil. Smite Evil scales the same regardless of the handedness of the weapon, and multiple hits will outweigh the damage advantage of a TH weapon. Once you get Shield Mastery it becomes much easier to land those shield bashes.

That said, if your opponent ISN'T evil, or if you run out of smite-juice for the day, the THF will win out by a large margin.

To recap: if your concept calls for a sword & board paladin, it's still viable, but more focused on evil-smiting than the THF, which makes it less versatile.

[Korahir]

You don't need the fighter dip when THF. Power Attack is all you need. As a paladin you can get pretty feat starved, but i don't think they are worth the dip, as you delay so many very important class features. Featwise I'd suugest the powerhouse pickups Unsactioned Knowledge and Leadership.

[grarrrg]

Don't let grarrrg hear you say that, or else you might find yourself with 3 levels of oracle.

Due to popular demand it's........

THE ORADIN LINK! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365)

*crowd noises / applause*

[Ravens_cry]

Paladin of Vengeance is pretty awesome, letting you trade 2 lay on hands for a smite.

[Razanir]

Due to popular demand its........

THE ORADIN LINK! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365)

*crowd noises / applause*

Your link gives me a strange urge to make a half-orc Warrior of the Holy Light, Redeemer, Deaf, Wolf-scarred Oradin

[grarrrg]

Your link gives me a strange urge to make a half-orc Warrior of the Holy Light, Redeemer, Deaf, Wolf-scarred Oradin

Trust your instincts. :smallwink:

[Efstrofos]

Thx for the warm welcome and the advice. I thought I'd get the damage from smiting and an enchanted shield of bashing at some time - loads of attacks=loads of smiting damage? I just really liked the sword and board idea, but you say it's not worth it? The shield focus was to get missile shield quickly -at low levels, I thought arrows are a nice thing to stop + shield mastery requires it, so I thought I'd better pick it up early...
Isn't a greatsword pally too squishy?

You're right that smite helps to offset the lower damage and to hit, and in fact TWF palis can eventually do more damage than 2 handers. The problem is that it just eats a lot of feats to stay competitive and you have to pump your Dex instead of Charisma or Str.

You'd be better off using some of those feats on Extra Lay on Hands to fuel either your swift action healing or using your Oath of Vengeance to turn them into smites.

Also, if you're using the shield to because you want to be a tank, being a tank via AC is generally quite hard to do. Paladins make great tanks because of swift action Lay on Hands and either Orc Ferocity or a pali spell called Hero's Defiance. This is why many people suggest to take Fey Foundling and even some suggest Tiefling (with a variant package with +2 Charisma and either +2 Str or Con) and using their racial favored class bonus to make your Lay on Hands even more effective. Because smite is so awesome they can be tanky and actually do great damage still.

Your main stat would actually be Charisma, not strength. Strength will make you hit harder, but Charisma fuels your saves, number of Lay on Hands (whic in turn fuels your smites), and your AC/attack bonus while smiting.

In the end this is all moot. If you want to use sword and board do it. Paladins can get away with it because of Smite whereas other classes can't. If you want to be a tank, however, you don't need sword and board and can be more effective other ways.

[Razanir]

Trust your instincts. :smallwink:

I shall call him the Orcadin!


In the end this is all moot. If you want to use sword and board do it. Paladins can get away with it because of Smite whereas other classes can't. If you want to be a tank, however, you don't need sword and board and can be more effective other ways.

OP, this is the heart of it. What matters is that you can play the character you want, in this case sword-n'-board, and that you have a class that makes it decent.

[Chained Birds]

OP, this is the heart of it. What matters is that you can play the character you want, in this case sword-n'-board, and that you have a class that makes it decent.

There are also some nifty feats for shield bashing down the line that remove the two-weapon fighting penalties and allow you to knock an enemy all over the place with each hit. Rangers get these tricks faster, but Paladins will likely spend time devoting feats to better Lay on Hands stuff or improved damage through stuff like Power Attack or Deadly Aim.

Antagonize is also a nifty thing, even though you get a few spells that mimic it.

[PraxisVetli]

If you're going with the sword and board, for the TWF, consider both the level dip in Barbarian's Lion Totem for the Pounce, and getting a bladed or spiked shield.

[PowerToTheMax]

Thank you very much for all the useful advice and replies.
It seems that TWF is viable, at least a bit, and as it's not about optimization, but playability, I'll stick to it.
The Oradin sounds nice, in fact I will definitely read the whole build, but it is not really what I had in mind - and, as we are starting lvl 1, I think it's not the way to go, I'd assume it's way more fun starting at lvl 4 or so.
The Unsanctioned Knowledge Feat seems indeed very interesting, especially if I free up a feat slot by fighter dipping. What spells would one take? I am thinking
1 Expeditious retreat or Undetectable alignment
2 Heroism
3 Magic Vestment
4 Dimension Door (to get into their faces, yo!) or Divine Might

I changed the build to Paladin 1+2 Fighter 3+4 to get LoH earlier. The antagonize really appeals to me, as I might be a bit of both the face as well as the tank of the group...

[BWR]

Pick up See Invisibility (Inquisitor list) with Unsanctioned Knowledge. It would probably be worth a feat for that one spell alone.

And are those spells all on one list?

[PowerToTheMax]

Oh, i just noticed the prerequisites include INT 13... no way in hell I'm gonna get that :(

[PraxisVetli]

Oh, i just noticed the prerequisites include INT 13... no way in hell I'm gonna get that :(

Plenty of Items to raise an ability.
Aren't there those Tomes in the DMG that dump points into a stat for you?

[grarrrg]

If you're going with the sword and board, for the TWF, consider both the level dip in Barbarian's Lion Totem for the Pounce, and getting a bladed or spiked shield.
A: This is Pathfinder, not 3.5, so Lion Totem is out.
B: He plans on Paladin levels, so Barbarian is out.
Not a bad idea, just not one that fits this thread/build.


The Oradin sounds nice, in fact I will definitely read the whole build, but it is not really what I had in mind - and, as we are starting lvl 1, I think it's not the way to go, I'd assume it's way more fun starting at lvl 4 or so.

The Core of the Oradin build is stupid simple, and the simplest version doesn't require much in the way of Levels/Feats/etc... It's really quite mix-n-match.

The main 'trick' of the Oradin doesn't come online until around level 4, but then again, not many builds really get going until then anyway. Until then you can either Paladin it up just fine (or full caster Oracle just fine).

[Korahir]

With sticking to TWF you have the option to lower Strength and increase Int to 12 to get to 13 with the level 4 attribute increase, but it will further hurt your dmg. I still think it's worth it though, given the multitude of great spells available.

[Alefiend]

Antagonize is also a nifty thing, even though you get a few spells that mimic it.

Check the Wisdom score. This character won't be casting any spells. :smallyuk:

[grarrrg]

Check the Wisdom score. This character won't be casting any spells. :smallyuk:

:smallsigh:
The title says "[PF]", this means this is a Pathfinder related thread.
Pathfinder Paladins use CHA to cast their spells.

[cerin616]

Well hot damn, too bad all 3.5 material is out (some DMs let you go back and forth freely, and you might ask your DM to consider this...) Monk Paladin, Ascetic Knight feat. I mean, its not the most optimized thing in the world, but you take the PF monk, and the PF pally, and you let their levels stack for unarmed, now THAT is some flavor.

Again, there are plenty of things thet get you way tougher, but picture yourself, charging into battle, a kung fu master with holy fist strikes.

[doko239]

Well hot damn, too bad all 3.5 material is out (some DMs let you go back and forth freely, and you might ask your DM to consider this...) Monk Paladin, Ascetic Knight feat. I mean, its not the most optimized thing in the world, but you take the PF monk, and the PF pally, and you let their levels stack for unarmed, now THAT is some flavor.

Again, there are plenty of things thet get you way tougher, but picture yourself, charging into battle, a kung fu master with holy fist strikes.

If you're gonna do that, add Champion of Irori on top for extra awesome.

[grarrrg]

Monk Paladin, Ascetic Knight feat. I mean, its not the most optimized thing in the world, but you take the PF monk, and the PF pally, and you let their levels stack for unarmed, now THAT is some flavor.

PF will do you one better.
Champion of Irori (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/champion-of-irori)

Full stacks for Smite Evil AND gives you the option of Smite Chaos instead.
Full stacks for Monk AC, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Damage.
Full Bab, All good saves, 4 Skills/level.
Pretty solid overall.
Cept for the, you know, MAD as hell....

[doko239]

Beat you to it grarrrg :smallbiggrin:

[grarrrg]

Beat you to it grarrrg :smallbiggrin:

Dang ninjas! :smallfrown:

[doko239]

Dang ninjas! :smallfrown:

Not ninjas, Paladin/Monks. Keep up with the conversation man.

[cerin616]

I... PF... I love... oh my... I dont even...

[Razanir]

I... PF... I love... oh my... I dont even...

I know, the Orcadin sounds awesome

[grarrrg]

I know, the Orcadin sounds awesome

Who's awesome?

You're The Orcadin is awesome! :smallcool:

[Alefiend]

:smallsigh:
The title says "[PF]", this means this is a Pathfinder related thread.
Pathfinder Paladins use CHA to cast their spells.

I'm aware it's Pathfinder, thanks. I play regularly. I just forgot that paladins use Charisma for everything now, that's all.

[grarrrg]

I'm aware it's Pathfinder, thanks. I play regularly. I just forgot that paladins use Charisma for everything now, that's all.

Fair enough, my apologies.
It's just that you were the second (or third?) person to give outright 3.5-based advice.

[PowerToTheMax]

Wow, just wow.
Many nice postings, and I totally LOVE the Champion of the Enlightened class. Not what I had in mind initially, but I really thought about switching to that dude. However, I think he would be way more fun with a 25 point build... plus, I suppose I'd have to dump int, and I dont really wanna be dumb :)
What else? Well, I think I will for now stick to the sword and board idea. I dont want to experiment too much, asking third-party classes or similar, as I havent yet gotten to know the playstyle of the group very well. As soon as I find a nifty tome of Intelligence I'll pick up some dangerous knowledge for sure.
I'll keep you guys updated on the progression, and if I will regret not going for the Or(c)adin, Monkadin etc - and if I really go for the fighter dip at lvl 3+4.
Thanks again for all the valuable advice.

[grarrrg]

Many nice postings, and I totally LOVE the Champion of the Enlightened class.

Champion of Irori.
The SRD had to change it due to copyright-stuff.
Go to the classes page and look at the URL though, still says "Irori". Fun stuff.

But yeah...I'd advise against Paladin/Monk...VERY MAD. Oh, so VERY MAD...

Anywho...my favorite bit of SRD vs. Copyright "fixing" is the Measured Response (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/measured-response-combat) feat.
It requires you to worship Abadar.
Abadar is Lawful Neutral.
So when they de-copyrighted the feat, they of course changed the requirement to a _Good_ deity.
*facepalm*

[PowerToTheMax]

So, I promised I'll keep you updated, and yesterday was our first game session.
A few things I noticed:
Not much happened, and we are still lvl 1. However, I can already judge the feats for lvl 1. TWF is not really overwhelming yet. While it is nice to be able to switch into "punch mode", its not really strong yet, with double slice and greater shield bash missing, and having a rather small attack bonus - giving up the +2 AC the next round was rarely worth it, only for finishing strikes.
The shield focus, however, is incredibly powerful. AC 19 at lvl 1 is something none of our enemies could overcome. I wasn't hit once.
I am already looking forward to lvl 4, when the strength of the concept will kick in.
Other than that I used quite a bit of diplomacy.