Uh Oh PC Transformation

[GutterFace]

Sooooo Dm'ing a simple game with friends on lunch breaks:

started at level 1. now at level 2. and our wizard failed his saves against a
Vargouille....both saves. he got kissed and is now going to transform into one...

no one in the party (they killed it a few rounds later) could identify the creature. and no one else can stop the transformation and they are deep in a dungeon so getting him out in time for daylight or help is remote.

Will this work like lycanthropcy where the PC can play on? Will this wizard become a Vargouille and keep playing?

[Mando Knight]

If you're more than 4 hours from daylight, a vargouille isn't exactly CR 2 anymore, IMO.

If you want to save the wizard, have them stumble upon a partially charged wand of Daylight (one charge) next to a corpse along with a journal describing a party being beset by flying tentacled heads...

[Gerrtt]

Have them find a scroll of Remove Disease in a chest, as well as some kind of scroll/book that tells them more about the creature they have encountered and the process that is about to unfold. Maybe not in the same chest...like maybe you find a headless adventurer corpse with a journal entry...each entry getting progressively more graphic and full of spelling errors due to the intelligence drain.

This solution of course assumes a Cleric, Druid, or Ranger in the party or someone with UMD.

Alternatively, let him play the vargouille until the other characters kill it. Then give him a new character.

Or ask what they want to do.

[GutterFace]

He, was the only caster. hahaha

so would any of you let the PC keep playing as part of the party as a flying head thing?

is he even intelligent in that form to speak to the party?

how would you rule this

[sleepyphoenixx]

What kind of dungeon are you in that you can't get out of within (at worst) 4 hours?
That aside, you're the dm. If you put your party up against a Varguille in these circumstances you pretty much expect to get at least one of them.

For your questions: The wizard dies, his head becomes a new Vargouille. It's not a template but a new creature.

[Mando Knight]

He still has several hours before fully transforming. A Remove Disease potion is 750 gp, in case they're in a party with no divine healers and no UMD... which is a bad situation to be in anyway...

[GutterFace]

He looked at me and shrugged. (the PC)

if he wants to let the transformation happen, i should let him right?

he can level as the monster correct?

[Gerrtt]

He still has several hours before fully transforming. A Remove Disease potion is 750 gp, in case they're in a party with no divine healers and no UMD... which is a bad situation to be in anyway...

It sounds like they are.

And it sounds like a re-roll is in the future. A vargouille isn't really going to want to join up with the party I am guessing. The alignment change combined with the major hit to it's INT score (they have a 5) are probably going to mean the thing detaches from the caster's shoulders and starts biting anything that moves.

[GutterFace]

It sounds like they are.

And it sounds like a re-roll is in the future. A vargouille isn't really going to want to join up with the party I am guessing. The alignment change combined with the major hit to it's INT score (they have a 5) are probably going to mean the thing detaches from the caster's shoulders and starts biting anything that moves.

also a good point. If he opt's to let the transformation happen he should retain all his skills, memories and alignment correct? since he opt's to let the transformation happen the hit to Cha/Int wont be bad 1 tops?

if he can speak still he might be able to convince the party he is still on their side....

[Gerrtt]

Without having the ability to look up resources specific to vargouilles (lore behind how they are created and what the created vargouille retains after creation, etc) my first answer is "no, they don't retain anything. They become the stock monster manual vargouille." But maybe someone can correct me on this one.

If he wants to play one, and you're OK with it, knock yourself out. Personally, I wouldn't want to become a 5 hp, infernal speaking monster who's whole schtick is kissing other monsters.

[Deadline]

also a good point. If he opt's to let the transformation happen he should retain all his skills, memories and alignment correct? since he opt's to let the transformation happen the hit to Cha/Int wont be bad 1 tops?

if he can speak still he might be able to convince the party he is still on their side....

Umm, no, not without some house-ruling. Vargouille's have LA: -, meaning they are unsuitable as player races. And they only speak Infernal. So unless you do something to stop the transformation, or you fabricate rules to let him play a Vargouille, the wizard is effectively dead when the transformation completes (well, worse than dead, because he'll probably try and eat/kill/kiss the rest of the party).

And if you were to use the Vargouille as a player race, it would have +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -6 Int, -2 Cha. So it would suck really badly for a wizard.

[Diarmuid]

In theory, the player could continue to play gthe Vargouille.

But, you need to keep in mind that the player is not keeping their stats, their alignment, etc. They are now playing the statblock out of the MM. They have an Int of 5 and are Neutral Evil and have a single hit die.

There isnt a ton of information about their motivations/society/etc so there's some wiggle room there. In theory it could take class levels, but you've got to wonder about why such a creature would continue to hang around with a group of adventurers.

[GutterFace]

Umm, no, not without some house-ruling. Vargouille's have LA: -, meaning they are unsuitable as player races. And they only speak Infernal. So unless you do something to stop the transformation, or you fabricate rules to let him play a Vargouille, the wizard is effectively dead when the transformation completes (well, worse than dead, because he'll probably try and eat/kill/kiss the rest of the party).

And if you were to use the Vargouille as a player race, it would have +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Wis, -6 Int, -2 Cha. So it would suck really badly for a wizard.

Ok this is perfect thanks. its much easier for me to manage someone rolling up a new level 2 PC than dealing with the Vargoullie.

:)

[Flickerdart]

Vargouilles are a valid option for Improved Familiars in Complete Scoundrel (but lose the kiss ability) for wizard with caster level 6. You could introduce a powerful wizard NPC who captures the ex-wizard and attempts to restore his intellect. As a familiar of a 6th level wizard, the vargouille would be a much more reasonable creature, as it would have better Intelligence, more HP (the master would probably have around 30 HP, which triples what the vargouille gets). Once the party reaches level 6 you could have some kind of quest where the master finds a way to separate the wizard essence from the vargouille; if the player enjoyed playing as one, he will have the option to spare it and take it on as his own Improved Familiar.

[GutterFace]

Vargouilles are a valid option for Improved Familiars in Complete Scoundrel (but lose the kiss ability) for wizard with caster level 6. You could introduce a powerful wizard NPC who captures the ex-wizard and attempts to restore his intellect. As a familiar of a 6th level wizard, the vargouille would be a much more reasonable creature, as it would have better Intelligence, more HP (the master would probably have around 30 HP, which triples what the vargouille gets). Once the party reaches level 6 you could have some kind of quest where the master finds a way to separate the wizard essence from the vargouille; if the player enjoyed playing as one, he will have the option to spare it and take it on as his own Improved Familiar.

Flicker: you always have the most interesting ideas ;)

[Thespianus]

Vargouilles are a valid option for Improved Familiars in Complete Scoundrel (but lose the kiss ability) for wizard with caster level 6. You could introduce a powerful wizard NPC who captures the ex-wizard and attempts to restore his intellect. As a familiar of a 6th level wizard, the vargouille would be a much more reasonable creature, as it would have better Intelligence, more HP (the master would probably have around 30 HP, which triples what the vargouille gets). Once the party reaches level 6 you could have some kind of quest where the master finds a way to separate the wizard essence from the vargouille; if the player enjoyed playing as one, he will have the option to spare it and take it on as his own Improved Familiar.
Awesome twist! Nicely done!

A variation: the Vargouille just killed could have been a former Familiar that had (somehow) run away from a level 6 Wizard (maybe he temporarily lost the Improved Familiar feat?). The Wizard may emerge at start of play, trying to undo damage caused by his former Familiar, carrying a potion of Remove Disease.

That would make for a faster transition back to "normal" for your party, if that's what they want.

[Psyren]

If you're more than 4 hours from daylight, a vargouille isn't exactly CR 2 anymore, IMO.

This. It wouldn't really be fair to let him die off from this without throwing a bone of some kind, unless it is meant to be a very difficult campaign.

[ksbsnowowl]

This. It wouldn't really be fair to let him die off from this without throwing a bone of some kind, unless it is meant to be a very difficult campaign.

He had two chances to save against it. I think throwing a life ring to him at this point will just dull the sense of danger for the future. It wasn't vindictive, but the fickle dice of fate said he's going to die (unless they can think of something to save him). Letting his fate play out now, before he's super attached to a long-running character, will keep the players on their toes in the future.

Just my opinion.

[SowZ]

He had two chances to save against it. I think throwing a life ring to him at this point will just dull the sense of danger for the future. It wasn't vindictive, but the fickle dice of fate said he's going to die (unless they can think of something to save him). Letting his fate play out now, before he's super attached to a long-running character, will keep the players on their toes in the future.

Just my opinion.

Yeah, I agree. At level 2, it would have been even easier for a single critical from a level 1 orc to one shot the wizard. Even with 14 Con the wizard probably has 10HP. A 16 Str Orc warrior with a longsword and a critical can easily dish out 20 damage. Getting two saves to prevent a lethal transformation and a chance at failed knowledge checks that would have easily saved them is a lot more of a chance than many, many level appropriate encounters could have given him.

If you don't want the random dice gods to kill off random PCs you have to start play around level 4 or so. Even then, it can still happen.

[Deathkeeper]

Yeah, I agree. At level 2, it would have been even easier for a single critical from a level 1 orc to one shot the wizard. Even with 14 Con the wizard probably has 10HP. A 16 Str Orc warrior with a longsword and a critical can easily dish out 20 damage. Getting two saves to prevent a lethal transformation and a chance at failed knowledge checks that would have easily saved them is a lot more of a chance than many, many level appropriate encounters could have given him.

If you don't want the random dice gods to kill off random PCs you have to start play around level 4 or so. Even then, it can still happen.

Not to mention that the transformation takes a pretty long time if I remember correctly. Spontaneously losing one's hair is usually a good sign that one should probably take a break from adventuring and find a doctor, and that's only the first symptom.

[joca4christ]

I'm reading the PF bestiary version, and it says that the transformation pauses when victims is exposed to sunlight or a light spell of third level or higher. So what may be fun is have the wizard partially transform before finding something with continual flame (a 3rd level cleric spell) cast on it. If I am reading it correctly, exposing the victim constantly to this light will stop the transformation until remove disease or whatever can be cast.

Interesting thought though. It sounds as if remove disease only stops the disease, it doesn't reverse it. So if the player and you agree, maybe he could partially transform, maybe get the shriek ability as a once a day thing at the cost of some Charisma? I don't know...would make him look creepy without actuallly being a Vargouille.

Just a thought.

[ksbsnowowl]

I'm reading the PF bestiary version, and it says that the transformation pauses when victims is exposed to sunlight or a light spell of third level or higher. So what may be fun is have the wizard partially transform before finding something with continual flame (a 3rd level cleric spell) cast on it. If I am reading it correctly, exposing the victim constantly to this light will stop the transformation until remove disease or whatever can be cast.

Just a thought.

FYI, this is highly dependent on if he is playing PF or D&D. The D&D one specifies it must be a Daylight spell.

[Maginomicon]

the fickle dice of fate said he's going to dieYet another reason to use Bell Curve Rolls.

[ksbsnowowl]

Yet another reason to use Bell Curve Rolls.

Eh, PC's are squishy until 4th level or so. Don't get too attached 'til 5th level.

[Psyren]

He had two chances to save against it. I think throwing a life ring to him at this point will just dull the sense of danger for the future. It wasn't vindictive, but the fickle dice of fate said he's going to die (unless they can think of something to save him). Letting his fate play out now, before he's super attached to a long-running character, will keep the players on their toes in the future.

Just my opinion.

I can understand the appeal of killing them off early if you're going to do it at all, but the fact remains that fighting a monster on favorable terrain to it should boost its CR. If the DM didn't take that into account, then the fight was harder than he intended it to be and going easy on the player is a reasonable response.

Ultimately this would depend on how attached the player is to his wizard. Maybe he's about to set pages of backstory on fire, or maybe the guy already has several backup sheets ready to go. Unless he chimes in we won't really know which.

[SowZ]

I can understand the appeal of killing them off early if you're going to do it at all, but the fact remains that fighting a monster on favorable terrain to it should boost its CR. If the DM didn't take that into account, then the fight was harder than he intended it to be and going easy on the player is a reasonable response.

Ultimately this would depend on how attached the player is to his wizard. Maybe he's about to set pages of backstory on fire, or maybe the guy already has several backup sheets ready to go. Unless he chimes in we won't really know which.

The OP said the player shrugged and wouldn't mind playing as a floating head if it came to then. It seems he isn't too attached, but I could be misinterpreting.

[Segev]

Normally, I would not encourage allowing somebody to play a Vargouille, for a number of reasons. However, I also am a great believer in things happening during play having interesting consequences.

Given how the transformation is written to occur, a Vargouille-to-be is formed as the victim takes stat damage, until he is reduced to the appropriate amount and the transformation is complete. I would argue that the transformation does corrupt and change the alignment, but that the creature still THINKS of itself as the same person, even if it can't think as clearly as it once did.

My suggestion would be to let him keep playing it, and have his fellow PCs able to convince him that, despite his evil outlook, it's in his best interest to work WITH them. Maybe even preserve his body somewhere.

Let him play as a Vargouille for a few levels. To level 6. Maybe create a special Feat he has to take next level; not sure what this feat should do at this stage, but I'll be happy to brainstorm to find something fun and thematic.

At level 6, he takes Improved Familiar, and regains his mental faculties. His Outsider soul re-inhabits his (hopefully preserved!) body, and his Vargouille head remains as his Familiar. Mechanically, he's now a Wizard 6 of his old race (possibly with the Outsider type and (native) subtype, possibly not), and his own head is his familiar.

The purpose of the 3rd level feat is to now translate it into "Headless," a special feat that makes him immune to effects that depend on him having a head (and, perhaps, makes breathing-based difficulties relative to the head rather than the body, so you can't drown him by immersing his body, but can by immersing his Vargouille familiar, for instance).

Maybe the feat preserves the body, up 'til then.

[GutterFace]

Normally, I would not encourage allowing somebody to play a Vargouille, for a number of reasons. However, I also am a great believer in things happening during play having interesting consequences.

Given how the transformation is written to occur, a Vargouille-to-be is formed as the victim takes stat damage, until he is reduced to the appropriate amount and the transformation is complete. I would argue that the transformation does corrupt and change the alignment, but that the creature still THINKS of itself as the same person, even if it can't think as clearly as it once did.

My suggestion would be to let him keep playing it, and have his fellow PCs able to convince him that, despite his evil outlook, it's in his best interest to work WITH them. Maybe even preserve his body somewhere.

Let him play as a Vargouille for a few levels. To level 6. Maybe create a special Feat he has to take next level; not sure what this feat should do at this stage, but I'll be happy to brainstorm to find something fun and thematic.

At level 6, he takes Improved Familiar, and regains his mental faculties. His Outsider soul re-inhabits his (hopefully preserved!) body, and his Vargouille head remains as his Familiar. Mechanically, he's now a Wizard 6 of his old race (possibly with the Outsider type and (native) subtype, possibly not), and his own head is his familiar.

The purpose of the 3rd level feat is to now translate it into "Headless," a special feat that makes him immune to effects that depend on him having a head (and, perhaps, makes breathing-based difficulties relative to the head rather than the body, so you can't drown him by immersing his body, but can by immersing his Vargouille familiar, for instance).

Maybe the feat preserves the body, up 'til then.


you hit the nail on the head. D&D is all about interesting consequences. the Wizard was unlucky. but we are an older group and roll with what we get. by the by i think if i remember right he rolled a 2 and a 5 for both saves so it was bad luck and wasnt even close enough for DM leniency. no one ever tries to flee in D&D anymore. they always press on. this Vargoullie was in a side room all by its self. the bad knowledge check = they thought it was a dire bat or something. regardless... he is going to roll up a new character in the meantime (i hope this is a lesson for him in trying to op a bit); until i insert his "new" character im going to let him try out the monster...if the others can convince him to stay after the full transformation (in game) ill let it slide a bit. id say the Dc's improve as he levels correct (for the scream and poison)? and ill give him access to feats like fly by attack, etc. he cant advance as a wizard but ill let him retain any current spells he has.

[Segev]

It is of course up to you, but the RAW would not let him cast the spells even if he could keep them, because...Int 5.

My suggestion that he play 'til he can become a wizard again was not that he would remain a wizard now, but that he'll suddenly be one when he regains his wits and his soul can realign its understanding of what he's learned. ANd is now this weird headless thing with a Vargouille familiar.

Again, it's just a suggestion, and I fully support the DM and player doing what is most fun and best for their game!

[GutterFace]

It is of course up to you, but the RAW would not let him cast the spells even if he could keep them, because...Int 5.

My suggestion that he play 'til he can become a wizard again was not that he would remain a wizard now, but that he'll suddenly be one when he regains his wits and his soul can realign its understanding of what he's learned. ANd is now this weird headless thing with a Vargouille familiar.

Again, it's just a suggestion, and I fully support the DM and player doing what is most fun and best for their game!

ill see what i can shake out and report back in a few days :)

[Perseus]

This. It wouldn't really be fair to let him die off from this without throwing a bone of some kind, unless it is meant to be a very difficult campaign.

Not that I disagree but I can't help to point out that 3.5 was the first edition I played where "fair" was a concept.

[Gerrtt]

Incidentally...fair would be that sooner or later everyone has something bad happen to them. Unfair would be that the players always win every encounter. This character pulled the short straw at level 2 rather than level 20.

[Cheiromancer]

I think it would be fine to let the vargouille be played for a session or two, until the new character can be introduced. Some shred of humanity has been preserved, and, at least for a time, the new vargouille regards its former allies in a friendly way. If undead characters can be playable, I don't see why vargouilles couldn't be.

The vargouille could even keep the old character's stats, minus the 1d6 Intelligence and Charisma drain. A vargouille wizard might even be able to cast spells, provided they have only verbal components. (A pity that mage hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageHand.htm) has somatic components.) Really, though, a warlock would be a better fit, class wise.

Still, it is probably best to retire the character. As has been said, it is best not to become attached to a 2nd level character.

[Psyren]

Incidentally...fair would be that sooner or later everyone has something bad happen to them. Unfair would be that the players always win every encounter. This character pulled the short straw at level 2 rather than level 20.

At high levels your comrades can bring you back though. You can even make resurrection hard in your games (requiring a long-lost ritual, gambling with a deity, or storming the shores of an outer plane etc.) and such things will still be at least within the realm of possibility for them. So bad rolls can still have consequences, but the range of possibilities for resolving them credibly is much broader.


Not that I disagree but I can't help to point out that 3.5 was the first edition I played where "fair" was a concept.

This is quite true. Anyway, "fairness" only matter to one person at this point (the player) and if he's okay with being a flying spell-less head for awhile (whether you plan on bringing his original character back or killing it off for good) then I have no objections either.

[Gerrtt]

At high levels your comrades can bring you back though. You can even make resurrection hard in your games (requiring a long-lost ritual, gambling with a deity, or storming the shores of an outer plane etc.) and such things will still be at least within the realm of possibility for them. So bad rolls can still have consequences, but the range of possibilities for resolving them credibly is much broader.


To quote friends:

"I'm sorry Mr. Geller. But you know, there's an old saying: "Sometimes monkeys die." It's not a great saying, but it certainly is fitting today."

--Lipton, from 'The One After the Superbowl part I", Friends 2.12

Seriously; if you adventure you accept that having your head fly off and become an infernal speaking make out monster might be the end result...and that's hardly the worst thing that could happen.

I appreciate that once you're higher level there are ways to deal with that, but until that point, sometimes monkeys die. Not only that, but there are plenty of ways to prevent THIS incident that have already been laid out. Ultimately it's up to:

1) the DM deciding that the player can play a vargouille.
2) the player deciding that the player wants to play a vargouille.

or

3) the DM deciding that there's some way to deal with this situation that makes sense (such as, getting a remove disease from either a potion, scroll, wand, friendly passerby/neighborhood cleric, finding some sunlight, etc.). He does afterall have at least 4 hours to get help, likely more.

or

4) a re-roll, start fresh with something that can pass a DC15 Fort Save after failing a DC12 fort save the round before.

[Psyren]

Given that the PCs didn't even know they were fighting a Vargouille, do they even know about having the 4 hours to reach daylight?



Seriously; if you adventure you accept that having your head fly off and become an infernal speaking make out monster might be the end result...and that's hardly the worst thing that could happen.

I appreciate that once you're higher level there are ways to deal with that, but until that point, sometimes monkeys die.

Death is indeed part of adventuring, but the group still needs to do something. The player is still alive after all, and presumably he's not sitting down around that table to watch everyone else play just because his character's head flew off.

Vargouilles are not designed to be playable or to retain any of their former allegiances, so even the recourse of letting the player control it (for however long) is a houserule. My point is that, if you're houseruling anyway, it can be just as easily in the player's favor as not.

But I reiterate that if the player is fine with this turn of events then I have no objection. For myself, I would accept the death and reroll.