Related Encounter XP Question

[Diarmuid]

Party (EPL 6) fights EL 9 encounter including a level 7 enemy Necromancer with his Skeletal Minion (necro familiar ACF). The defeat the encounter with the wizard fleeing.

Overcame the encounter, EL 9, 1350XP per person, no problem.

That same wizard fled to find the nearest patrol of bad guys and comes back for the party, but now he's severely depleted in spells and his skeletal minion is gone.

This new encounter is another EL 9 with the wizard included. Should they get full XP for "defeating" the wizard twice? I could see if the wizard had time to rest up and get a new full compliment of spells but this second fight was probably only about 30 minutes later in game time.

I dont want to screw the players out of XP, but giving them full xp for the necro twice seems a bit off to me.

Thoughts?

[Yora]

I think I would treat him as being 2 levels lower than he actually is, but otherwise calculate XP for the encounter normally.

Often, a spellcaster won't be casting more than 4 or maybe 5 spells in the whole encounter, so having only a few left might not actually make him that much weaker. It really depends a great deal on what spells he has still left. If he has run out of all 4th and 3rd level spells and only has some 2nd and 1st level spells (though with a CL of 7th), you might even treat him as just a 4th level character.

[Barsoom]

A spellcaster is only as good as his highest-level spells available. If he's out of 4th level spells, treat him as level 5 or 6. If he's also out of 3rd level spells, treat him as level 3 or 4, and so on.

Also, I'm not sure if you gave separate XP for the Skeletal Minion, but if you did, you shouldn't have - it's part of the Necromancer's class features. Familiars, animal companions, summoned monsters, etc, don't give their own XP.

[rockdeworld]

A spellcaster is only as good as his highest-level spells available. If he's out of 4th level spells, treat him as level 5 or 6. If he's also out of 3rd level spells, treat him as level 3 or 4, and so on.

Also, I'm not sure if you gave separate XP for the Skeletal Minion, but if you did, you shouldn't have - it's part of the Necromancer's class features. Familiars, animal companions, summoned monsters, etc, don't give their own XP.
Your logic is contradictory. In the second paragraph you're saying "stick to RAW, don't give XP for class features," but in the first paragraph you're saying "throw RAW to the wind, a level 9 wizard with only 3rd level spells doesn't give xp for a level 9 wizard."

There's nothing wrong with that xp system, but it's not RAW. A level 9 wizard is a level 9 wizard. By RAW, a wizard with less than full spell slots doesn't change his CR.

I would personally give the same xp for the wizard each time, just because I like giving out xp. Maybe I'd reduce the CR by 1 for circumstances, if I wanted to be stricter.

[Barsoom]

Maybe I didn't make myself sufficiently clear. The CR system assumes a level 7 (not 9. where'd you get 9 from?) character to have all the class features of a level 7 character. That means, 4th level spells, for a wizard, a Skeletal Minion, for a Necromancer, and so on.

So, 7th level Necromancer Wizard with full complement of spells and a Skeletal Minion = CR 7. "Sticking to RAW" is perfectly fine in this case.

Unfortunately, the CR system DOES NOT tell us what to do when a character has a less-than-full access to class features. In this case, "stick to RAW" is useless, since there is no RAW, and we have to improvise our best.

I hope I have expressed my opinion with sufficient clarity this time.


By RAW, a wizard with less than full spell slots doesn't change his CR. This could have been a good point, if only it made any sense.

[lycantrope]

Use this. In my experience it's very accurate.

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html

e: by which I mean, I take ECL as defined by actual class features as a better measure of CR than CR. Some may disagree.

[Diarmuid]

Also, I'm not sure if you gave separate XP for the Skeletal Minion, but if you did, you shouldn't have - it's part of the Necromancer's class features. Familiars, animal companions, summoned monsters, etc, don't give their own XP.

I didnt give separate XP for the minion, I was merely noting that the SM was a decent addition to the Necro7's original arsenal and not having it the second time around certainly made him less of a threat.

I think I like the idea of treating him as a slightly lower CR individually. He used up a decent amount of his spells in the first combat, but definitely had enough to make the second encounter interesting. Probably only knock 1 off.

Thanks for the insights.

[Barsoom]

I didnt give separate XP for the minion, I was merely noting that the SM was a decent addition to the Necro7's original arsenal and not having it the second time around certainly made him less of a threat.I agree with that.

[Diarmuid]

Of note, combined with some of the undead boosting spells from the SpC (Undead Torch, the one that boosts Natural Armor, etc) that Skeletal Minion can really pack a punch.

Was I correct in assigning feats to the Skeletal Minion for the additional HD it gained for the creator's caster level?

[Barsoom]

Does it have an Intelligence score? If not, it never gains feats, except for bonus feats inherent to its creature type (eg. all Zombies have Toughness, etc). If it does have an Int score, it gains bonus feats every 3 HD.

[Diarmuid]

Nope, no intelligence. Glad I went with pretty "simple" feats then and didnt go crazy (Weap Focus: Claw, Imp Nat Attack).

[Phelix-Mu]

As DM, they can be bonus feats from a source other than the ACF for skeletal minion. There is a grey area about methods open to the npc should probably be open to players. But just make the methods sufficiently difficult to achieve or expensive.

In any case, as you say, they weren't hugely impactful feats. Now, ubercharging skeletal minion, that's one that I want to see.:smallsmile: