Paladin Code question.

[Sheogoroth]

I'm running my players through a dungeon, and I put a hole in the wall, and whoever places their arm into it, has it removed and replaced with an ennervating arm(Libris Mortis.)
In the backstory, this was used as a reward for a long-gone undead cult, to have their arm replaced and the power involved.

The paladin(of Serrenae) in my group decided to put his arm in(not knowing what it was), now he's walking around with an undead arm graft that can deal negative levels.

The question is- if he doesn't lop it off, does this disbar him from his paladinnic powers?
Is an undead arm inherently evil?

[drax75]

I would say that the undead arm would not normally be considered evil.

The question is whether the cult was evil or not. If they were then i would view the arm and the magic that created it as evil. and thus force the pally to lop it off.

Also Ennervation itself is in my mind evil so thats another reason to lop it off.

All in all its a corruption attached to his/her body and should be removed.

[hamishspence]

Depends on if it's intelligent or not- if it is, and it's evil, it might fall under "associating with an evil being"

If not, might be permissible- a bit like using an Unholy Weapon in time of crisis- because it's the only weapon to hand.

[Khedrac]

For 3.5 the designers made all undead evil, even the mindless skeletons and zombies that used to be neutral, this makes the arm evil, but not necessarily the paladin.

If he uses it intentionally then that is a deliberate evil act.
If he uses it unintentionally (e.g. before he knows what it is) then that is an accidentally evil act and he will need to atone.

For just having the arm? - That's the sort of question which can lead to endless debate with no clear answer. Personally I think he needs to atone just for having it and possessing it probably should cut him off form his powers (or most of them). However I do think that you should not make getting such atonement difficult unless he is deliberately using the arm or not seeking atonement at the first opportunity. Getting his own arm regenerated may take a lot more work though...

[SethoMarkus]

Personally, I wouldn't punish the paladin or take his powers away as long as he did not use the arm's powers and actively worked towards finding a way to undo the "reward". (Or, if not actively seeking a way to undo it, to at least be searching for clues along side whatever the main quest objective is.)

If he did not try to remove the arm in any way, but continued to abstain from using the arm's powers, I would probably send (divine) hints that the arm is fouling up his Good aura, and if he continued to be passive towards it maybe temporarily remove paladin powers (requiring Atonement but without a quest or exp cost).

If he embraces the arm and actively/regularly uses it, I would consider that a full Fall and require all the same hoops to jump through as though he had committed an Evil act willingly and knowingly. Maybe a Greyguard could get away with using the arm, but an out-of-the-box Paladin cannot.

Again, these are all my opinions. Mileage may vary.

[Big Fau]

There's no inherent evilness involved with the Enervating Arm graft other than, flavor-wise, it's an undead's arm. From the sounds of it though, the creation of the graft is not directly tied to the creation of undead (in fact it can be interpreted that the arm is actually the Pally's original one, subjected to an effect that turned it into the graft in a rather painful way).

There shouldn't be an issue with the Paladin's CoC for the graft itself, but if the player uses it to create Wights (via level-draining a humanoid to death) it will be grounds for an immediate fall. Using it as a debuff or just as a temporary arm (until the Pally can afford to have Regeneration cast) shouldn't cause a problem.

[Suteinu]

Paladin of Whom? If he's a paladin of Wee Jas, it is less of a problem, as her followers are charged with regulating (rather than simply destroying) the undead. Perhaps it is a tool with which the Lady has now entrusted you; be careful how you use it!

Palor or St. Cuthbert? Now this appalling appendage is seen as a corruption of the body and the spirit. "If you had a cancer and it let you fly, wouldn't you still cut it out?"

So, talk to you DM, see what the paladin's god thinks, and be prepared to play a really heavy-metal, one-armed swordsman! YEEAAH!!!!!!!!

[ArqArturo]

I'd probably let it pass, but I would be devious enough that the arm would start to have a mind of its own, and then the character might have to be forced to use his chainsaw against it :smallcool:.

[Sheogoroth]

Personally, I wouldn't punish the paladin or take his powers away as long as he did not use the arm's powers and actively worked towards finding a way to undo the "reward". (Or, if not actively seeking a way to undo it, to at least be searching for clues along side whatever the main quest objective is.)

If he did not try to remove the arm in any way, but continued to abstain from using the arm's powers, I would probably send (divine) hints that the arm is fouling up his Good aura, and if he continued to be passive towards it maybe temporarily remove paladin powers (requiring Atonement but without a quest or exp cost).


Well, we're running the 'World's Largest Dungeon,' so certain amenities have been completely unavailable to the party.
I was letting him keep it so long as he didn't use the enervating touch. I suppose I can screw him over for a little bit, until I conveinietly drop a restoration scroll or something.

[Scow2]

Paladin of Whom? If he's a paladin of Wee Jas, it is less of a problem, as her followers are charged with regulating (rather than simply destroying) the undead. Perhaps it is a tool with which the Lady has now entrusted you; be careful how you use it!

Palor or St. Cuthbert? Now this appalling appendage is seen as a corruption of the body and the spirit. "If you had a cancer and it let you fly, wouldn't you still cut it out?"

So, talk to you DM, see what the paladin's god thinks, and be prepared to play a really heavy-metal, one-armed swordsman! YEEAAH!!!!!!!!First off - Paladins are beholden to Good first, their Deity second (if at all). Most that follow deities do so to support their faith (After all - a Deity has been dealing with alignment far longer than any mortal)

But, that aside - The graft itself should not make him fall any more than being hit with a Bestow Curse would. However, he cannot use the arm at all. No, not even for debuffing. Assaulting someone's soul directly is not morally worth the -2 to hit and -10 HP.

[hamishspence]

It's worth noting that the Enervation spell doesn't have the [Evil] tag.

As written, a multiclass paladin/wizard could use it just fine (unless DMs houserule it as "harming souls").

What makes the graft any different in that respect?

Now, "creating undead" is considered Evil- so arguably, a paladin character who has somehow gained access to a spell that inflicts negative levels, must take precautions to ensure that, if they kill someone with it, they don't arise as undead.

[Telonius]

It's worth noting that the Enervation spell doesn't have the [Evil] tag.

As written, a multiclass paladin/wizard could use it just fine (unless DMs houserule it as "harming souls").

What makes the graft any different in that respect?

Now, "creating undead" is considered Evil- so arguably, a paladin character who has somehow gained access to a spell that inflicts negative levels, must take precautions to ensure that, if they kill someone with it, they don't arise as undead.

I'd agree with this. Simply using negative energy is not an Evil act. Pelor, Hieroneous and company can grant Inflict spells to their Clerics (just not to cast spontaneously).

[hamishspence]

Even a Holy weapon can inflict negative levels- on any Evil-aligned person who picks it up.

[Hyena]

Go ahead and make him fall for it, unjustly screwing paladins over is some sort of olympic discipline in DnD.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah, this is not evil, although I can imagine a Paladin might be very uncomfortable with it. Undead are nowhere stated to always be evil, and in fact there are non-evil undead (such as ghosts, some mummies, and a few others); enervation and similar are not evil either. So it's merely a most unpleasant and dangerous weapon.


Even a Holy weapon can inflict negative levels- on any Evil-aligned person who picks it up.

Even undead. </hilarity>

[Kudaku]

First off - Paladins are beholden to Good first, their Deity second (if at all). Most that follow deities do so to support their faith (After all - a Deity has been dealing with alignment far longer than any mortal)

True, but in Pathfinder the deity you worship most likely defines what aspects of Good you focus on. Paladins of Shelyn and paladins of Torag both do the work of Good, but most likely in very different ways.

OP, Did you by any chance mean Sarenrae (http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Sarenrae)?

[lycantrope]

Go ahead and make him fall for it, unjustly screwing paladins over is some sort of olympic discipline in DnD.

Yup. Paladins have a hard enough time. Let him keep it and dot punish him for it. Good and neutral liches exist, so it's not undeath that is inherently evil, just a good majority of those who dabble in it. If he's not acting out of alignment with it, it would be unfair to punish him. Oh, and there's good undead types in book of exalted deeds, too, so there's no real reason to railroad evil on to him unless you would have done it for any character that got the arm.

[Big Fau]

Yup. Paladins have a hard enough time. Let him keep it and dot punish him for it. Good and neutral liches exist, so it's not undeath that is inherently evil, just a good majority of those who dabble in it. If he's not acting out of alignment with it, it would be unfair to punish him. Oh, and there's good undead types in book of exalted deeds, too, so there's no real reason to railroad evil on to him unless you would have done it for any character that got the arm.

In fact, it may be worth a minor quest to get the new arm consecrated into a deathless-flavored item, possibly bestowing temporary HP that harms undead/helps the Paladin (or boosts his Lay on Hands/Smite abilities).

[Erik Vale]

In fact, it may be worth a minor quest to get the new arm consecrated into a deathless-flavored item, possibly bestowing temporary HP that harms undead/helps the Paladin (or boosts his Lay on Hands/Smite abilities).

Would be good flavourwise, perhaps the paladin is so good he 'corrupts' the arm. Perhaps it eventually becomes a at will source of healing/restoration.

[Perseus]

Ok so while I don't think he should fall.. Here is what you can do if you make him fall...

During his next dream his deity comes to him and explains that she doesn't want her power mingling with such an graft and that until the paladin retains his own arm or just one that isn't this arm she is taking his paladin abilities...

However she doesn't want to leave one of her chosen ones high and dry so she is imparting the paladin with divine knowledge. The paladin now has a number of feats equal to what a fighter would have but none of the paladin class abilities.

Fallen Paladin that isn't 100% Boned.

[GlorinSteampike]

I think that just having the Arm is a detriment to the paladin as not only are Paladins inherently against evil. They are inherently against the Undead in all their forms.

I think the Paladin should do all he can to not use the arm for just about anything, and would amputate immediately unless he knows of a way to revert it.

I don't think he should lose any powers unless he starts using it or glorifying it in some way.

[TuggyNE]

I think that just having the Arm is a detriment to the paladin as not only are Paladins inherently against evil. They are inherently against the Undead in all their forms.

I think the Paladin should do all he can to not use the arm for just about anything, and would amputate immediately unless he knows of a way to revert it.

Not all Paladins are specifically against undead; they certainly have a class feature to make them marginally more effective against them, and most undead are evil, but "hates all undead" is not actually a part of the Paladin job description.

Instead, it's something a particular patron's doctrine will likely cover; a Paladin of Pelor would certainly go to almost any lengths to wipe out undead, but a Paladin of Wee Jas not so much. Really, it's basically like a Cleric: it's a common thing for them to focus on, but it's not essential to the class.

[Ashtagon]

It's no more evil than carrying an evil object. As a matter of common sense, he should be working towards removing this "curse", but he shouldn't be required to cause himself injury in the process unless it is confirmed that is the only way it can be removed.

Using its granted powers would be an evil act, however.

[Slipperychicken]

BoVD 77 tells us that "tapping into evil power" is an evil act. If the undead arm is evil power in itself (I'd be inclined to say that only the enervating bit is evil power, if that. Grasping a weapon with the arm would be OK in my book), then the Paladin's willing/knowing use of it would make him fall. If he can willingly forgo any extra benefits (aside from regular arm stuff) which the graft gives, or just refuse to use the arm, that should put him in the safe zone until he can get it fixed.

BoVD 8 tells us that animating or creating the undead is an evil act. If the Paladin's willing use of the arm causes those slain by it to rise again as zombies, that's evil and the paladin falls if he takes such an action, aware that it would animate or create undead.

[Killer Angel]

It's worth noting that the Enervation spell doesn't have the [Evil] tag.

Another way to put it, could be "does the paladin have problems, if her wizard friend, casts enervation?"

[Segev]

I agree with the, "This is not inherently evil," crowd. At worst, if he willfully creates Wights with it, each individual act of such creation would be evil. Using it as a debuff, provided attacking the target he is debuffing is not evil in the first place, should be fine. (i.e., obviously he shouldn't be level-draining innocent people, but he shouldn't be attacking innocent people, so it's a wash, there.)

Now, wanting to get rid of the "curse" is valid. If you want to use this to screw with him without being a jerk to the paladin, avoid screwing with his paladin-hood. Instead, remember that it's an undead arm. Make sure he never accidentally uses his Lay On Hands on the arm rather than his torso. Don't let him use Lay On Hands through that arm. The former should actually cause damage equal to the healing it normally would; the latter should simply fail.

Make sure his cleric buddy also heals his BODY and not his ARM. But, as a side perk, maybe inflict spells can HEAL him if used on his arm. Not normally useful in a party without a negative-channeling cleric, but could be fun if he ever runs up against an evil cleric who tries to use Inflict spells: he could get clever and use his arm as an impromptu shield which might just get them to touch that and heal him.

Have fun with Turn Undead: Used by allies, it should cause his arm to try to pull him away. Used by him, it should have his arm wrenching painfully (mechanical effects as you desire). Destruction is, of course, tragic. And Rebuking from evil clerics should make the arm refuse to attack them or even wield a defensive item, while Command...Evil Dead, anybody?

I think those, especially as largely corner-case as they should be, will nicely balance out the big advantage(s) it does grant him, will serve as ample reason to view it as a cursed-with-awesome (rather than a pure blessing that happens to be ugly) thing, and create interesting situations while avoiding the way over-done "let's screw with the Paladin's code restrictions" business.

[Telonius]

Hmm, interesting possibility here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) ...


A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight.

So if the Paladin kills somebody with Enervation from the arm, would that person come back as a Paladin? :smallbiggrin:

[Scow2]

Hmm, interesting possibility here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels) ...



So if the Paladin kills somebody with Enervation from the arm, would that person come back as a Paladin? :smallbiggrin:

Oh, wow... now THAT would be amusing!

[SethoMarkus]

Well, we're running the 'World's Largest Dungeon,' so certain amenities have been completely unavailable to the party.
I was letting him keep it so long as he didn't use the enervating touch. I suppose I can screw him over for a little bit, until I conveinietly drop a restoration scroll or something.

If it was impossible/stupid for the paladin to actively seek a way to undo it I wouldn't take any action against him. I hadn't realized they were (stuck) in a dungeon. I more meant that as a precaution if the paladin just continued to walk from town-to-town without even stopping in the temples and asking if any cleric knew what to do with it. I am a firm believer that paladins should be held to a higher standard, not turned into a game of "how fast can I make him/her fall?"

[lycantrope]

I like the idea of turning it into a quest to have him consecrate it into a deathless arm with a refluffed ability. Not that it's necessary, but as a dm you have to appreciate your players creating their own hooks. Maybe tie the new ability to greater turning? Either the arm lets him use that ability as a cleric (suboptimal), or simply gives him one of the various bonus feats that deals damage/destroys turned undead.

[Deophaun]

During his next dream his deity comes to him and explains that she doesn't want her power mingling with such an graft and that until the paladin retains his own arm or just one that isn't this arm she is taking his paladin abilities...
Fortunately, Paladin's don't get their powers from a deity, those this terrible idea can't work by RAW.

At most, a paladin aligns himself with a deity, and even that is optional.

[Slipperychicken]

Oh, wow... now THAT would be amusing!

Weren't evil clerics able to Turn Paladins in older editions, like normal clerics turned undead?

...

Screw zombies. Now I want to play a game featuring the Paladin apocalypse.

[cerin616]

Well now, I don't think there is any evil in not immediately severing your arm. Granted a paladin might lop it off in fear, seeing as they most likely only see that their arm is all corpsy and evil now.

Granted if he runs around using its ability, now that is evil.

or if you guys leave the dungeon and he decides "i kinda like it this way" then its pretty evil.

But just having it isnt necessarily evil, even mroe so if his intent is to purify it.

[Kudaku]

If the arm goes putrid then the paladin might fall for producing poison :smallwink:

[lycantrope]

Just to offer some context to this debate, lets consider what threads we'd be reading if this had happened to some other classes:

Sorcerer: can I apply metamagic to the effect since, like my normal spells, its coming from within me and not just something I memorized?
Crusader: can I use maneuvers with the ennervation?
Rogue: if they are flat footed, does sneak attack stack with the ennervate?

But since it's a paladin, who even with a strict reading of the code of conduct, was acting entirely within alignment by being the first into the fray, the question is whether or not he loses his class features for playing his character in character.

[Kudaku]

Just to offer some context to this debate, lets consider what threads we'd be reading if this had happened to some other classes:

Sorcerer: can I apply metamagic to the effect since, like my normal spells, its coming from within me and not just something I memorized?
Crusader: can I use maneuvers with the ennervation?
Rogue: if they are flat footed, does sneak attack stack with the ennervate?

But since it's a paladin, who even with a strict reading of the code of conduct, was acting entirely within alignment by being the first into the fray, the question is whether or not he loses his class features for playing his character in character.

True. The paladin was exposed to something entirely outside of his control that molested his both his physical entity and his very identity. Let him come to terms with it in his own way without having to worry about getting screwed over by poor class mechanics.

[TuggyNE]

So if the Paladin kills somebody with Enervation from the arm, would that person come back as a Paladin? :smallbiggrin:

That would be awesome! :smallbiggrin:

It wouldn't actually work that way, but that would be awesome!

[One Step Two]

I vote for the Paladin "corrupting" the arm over time, and instead of being enervating, it grants Energy Charge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_energycharge&alpha=)

[Slipperychicken]

I vote for the Paladin "corrupting" the arm over time, and instead of being enervating, it grants Energy Charge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_energycharge&alpha=)

Unless you put a limit on it, the regaining spell slots bit is kind of OP.

[One Step Two]

Unless you put a limit on it, the regaining spell slots bit is kind of OP.

Oh, don't get me wrong, it really can be, but in the Context of a World's Largest Dungeon, where the players can't leave, that sort of trick can really be a life saver.

[JusticeZero]

Because everyone knows that Paladins are horribly overpowered and need to be chopped down and nerfed so they will quit overshadowing the druid and Wizard..

If he starts raising an army of wights, then sure, give him trouble. Otherwise, just leave him alone.

Or do as the house rules in the campaigns I was in when I was younger would dictate - transform him into an antipaladin, tell him that once the curse is removed, he'll go back to full paladin, inform him that his personality and roleplay has not changed in the slightest, and send him out to continue to do good deeds while crackling with dark power - in all of those campaigns, using negative energy FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER was a profoundly evil act, but only as far as the alignment system was concerned. It was neither ethically nor morally problematic to anything but the system the gods had in place to prejudge souls, which triggered alignment checks.

[Slipperychicken]

Oh, don't get me wrong, it really can be, but in the Context of a World's Largest Dungeon, where the players can't leave, that sort of trick can really be a life saver.

You'd want to make the tradeoff a lot worse than 5hp for a highest-level slot, or else the Paladin will quickly fall into the role of spell-battery for the primary casters (who will proceed to nova through every encounter knowing their Paladin can give their spells back on a whim). Maybe if it was something like the Paladin gains a negative level when he bestows a positive level on someone else.

[Clistenes]

The Code is 10 % crunch and 90 % fluff. Strictly speaking, only a change of alignment or willingly committing an evil cat are assured to provoke the loss of his paladin powers.

The thing is, how detailed is the particular Code of your paladin? If you have created a consistent Code and your DM accepted it, and nothing in your Code says anything using extreme necromantic stuff, I think your DM should allow you the use of the enervation arm.

On the other hand, if your paladin's code is only vagely defined then your DM has a lot of freedom about what to do. I don't think he should make your paladin fall, since he hasn't purposelly done anything evil, but he could deny you some of the class features until the undead arm is removed, arguing that they don't mix well with having an evil undead graft.

[Segev]

willingly committing an evil cat

I knew those felines were trouble!

[JusticeZero]

yeah, i've always just let a paladin do whatever just as long as they don't consistently act like a templar (drift to LN) or avenger (drift toward CG) and don't commit any atrocities of murder-hobodom. It's not like they need to be reigned in hard from their awesome overpowered awesomeness.