Best Wizard Prc(heavy optimization)

[Yogibear41]

What are some of the best wizard prestige classes out there for full out rediculous optimization, grey elf elven generalist collegiate wizard spell mastery uncanny forethought type optimization. Focusing heavily on battlefield control and more or less just pressing the I win button.

[Venger]

What are some of the best wizard prestige classes out there for full out rediculous optimization, grey elf elven generalist collegiate wizard spell mastery uncanny forethought type optimization. Focusing heavily on battlefield control and more or less just pressing the I win button.

initiate of the sevenfold veil
incantatrix
beholder mage
illithid savant
mage of the arcane order
ultimate magus (via alacritous cogitation)
master specialist

pretty much all the biggies there

[Fouredged Sword]

Beholder Mage, by far, followed by incantrix.

[Hylas]

mage of the arcane order

I remember when I was browsing my friend's books and discovered that. Spontaneous casting of any wizard spell, even if you don't know it. My DM said no.

[Rebel7284]

initiate of the sevenfold veil
incantatrix
beholder mage
illithid savant
mage of the arcane order
ultimate magus (via alacritous cogitation)
master specialist

pretty much all the biggies there

I would not count beholder mage and illithid savant, those are closer to theoretical optimization than practical optimization in MY book. Your mileage may vary.

Not sure why master specialist is on that list, very minor benefits.

Some additional choices:

Shadowcraft mage (non-gnome adaptation)
Dweomerkeeper (with a way to count as casting divine spells)
All the PrCs that grant circle magic....

[Grod_The_Giant]

I remember when I was browsing my friend's books and discovered that. Spontaneous casting of any wizard spell, even if you don't know it. My DM said no.
A maximum of 5 spell levels a day after 10 levels of the PrC. Good, but it ain't breaking Wizard any more than it already is.

Let's not forget Anima Mage's uncapped free metamagic ability.

[Venger]

I would not count beholder mage and illithid savant, those are closer to theoretical optimization than practical optimization in MY book.
I agree that they have no place in a normal game. they're very clearly TO. however, OP asked for:


full out rediculous optimization
which both of those definitely fall into for me.


Not sure why master specialist is on that list, very minor benefits.
I agree, but at low levels, it's better than straight wizard, and serves as a stopgap until you can enter real prcs. it's a free power boost, so should be taken if you're going full op


Some additional choices:

Shadowcraft mage (non-gnome adaptation)
Dweomerkeeper (with a way to count as casting divine spells)
All the PrCs that grant circle magic....

which ones grant circle magic besides red wizard of thay?

almost forgot loremaster.

[faircoin]

Let's not forget dweomerkeeper!

[Yogibear41]

How does Incantatrix and having to ban a school work with being an elven generalist? Does it continue to function as normal, or do you lose the generalist abilities once you take the 1st level on Incantatrix?

[ArqArturo]

How does Incantatrix and having to ban a school work with being an elven generalist? Does it continue to function as normal, or do you lose the generalist abilities once you take the 1st level on Incantatrix?

As RAW, I think it functions as normal.

And yes, Incantatrix/Mage of the Arcane Order is an ungodly abomination. And, if you're a Changeling, add in Recaster, for some metamagic shenanigans.

[iDesu]

which ones grant circle magic besides red wizard of thay? .

Hatran, and I believe Durthran. Also both are broken if you can find a way to get Acorn of Far Travel on your list.

[subject42]

What about cancer mage? Arbitrarily high strength is a pretty nice trick.

[Fouredged Sword]

Illumian Cancer mage for arbitrarily high numbers of spells per day.

[Darth Stabber]

War weaver is one of the best mid-op wizard PRCs, but it's more about party cooperation than "I-win-buttons".

Archmage is commonly useful in many builds to fill in holes if nothing else.

[Andion Isurand]

1 level of Nightmare Spinner is a good match with Shadowcraft Mage after level 20.

------------------------------------

1 level of Olin Gisir is a good match with with an elven Loremaster.

For Lore and Bardic knowledge, I adopted the pathfinder version which grants a bonus to all knowledge checks equal to 1/2 your class levels that grant the ability.

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As far as circle magic goes, Hathrans and Halruaan Adepts gain the ability in addition to red wizards.

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Wyrm Wizard is another strong PrC to take after you're able to cast 9th level spells, as you can add Miracle to your class spell list with only 2 levels in the class. It's a good alternative to taking the Arcane Disciple feat for the purpose of casting shadow miracles via Earth Spell + Heighten Spell + Shadow Illusion class feature + Silent Image.

[Norin]

A bit OT here, but i just had to ask:

Is it true that Incantantrix is really a female word? (Sorry if that is the wrong way to put it, i'm not a native english speaker)

What would a male Incantantrix be? Incantantar?

[Fouredged Sword]

Rix delineates female as opposed to the male er, but the usage is old, and not normally used in modern English outside a few terms.

In the large majority of usage it is locked to one way or the other. A dominatrix is a female, but we don't use dominater to refer to the male version. We would at best say male dominatrix or some version of that if a unique word failed to be decided on.

In theory though Incanter would be the male version of the word.

Another example is gladiator. We don't have gladiatrixes, just female gladiators.

English has a lot of these associations that are not used in practice due to the germanizing of Latin that birthed our language.

[Karnith]

What would a male Incantantrix be? Incantantar?
Yes, according to Player's Guide to Faerun, p. 61, a male incantatrix is called an incantatar.

[Norin]

Thanks! Back to topic! ;)

[Yogibear41]

ATM, I'm trying to pick between mage of the arcane order and incantrix, I also realized eschew materials is no longer considered a metamagic feat which I'm sad about(I know its a pretty mediocre feat but we more or less have some unwritten house rules that retrieving spell components from a component pouch can be a hassle at times, making reflex saves etc. I've seen people more or less lose their turn by droping the components) I also wanted to go a spell mastery into uncanny forthought type build so I could have some spontaneouness as well as not be completely useless if something happened to my spellbook. So fitting Iron Will and the metamagic feats into my build early could be more of a stretch, flaws are allowed and currently at level 1 I would have something like this for feats/flaws/traits.

Non combatant, and vulnerable for flaws, Agressive and Farsighted for traits,
Grey Elf, 16 con, 20 dex, 20 int Elven generalist
Improved Initiative, Spell master, Scribe Scroll, Collegiate Wizard, for feats at level 1.

I suppose it might be better if I go ahead and grab eschew in place of spell mastery and save that for a 3rd level feat and pushing Uncanny forethought up to 6th level. Could also drop improved ini to pick up Iron will for Incantrix but with that feat, a 20 dex, and the trait I have a +11 ini at level 1 which just seems amazing.

On a side note story continuity is INCREDIBLY important, so If I can't find an actual arcane order to join, then mage of the arcane order is a no go.

Any ideas/thoughts/opinions?

I've never actually played a wizard before, mostly because I like melee but my DM basically told me the other day that he basically wants to see a high level wizard/other tier 1 class just to see how "broken" they can be in 3.5 because no one has ever played one well in his game before.

[Rebel7284]

As RAW, I think it functions as normal.

And yes, Incantatrix/Mage of the Arcane Order is an ungodly abomination. And, if you're a Changeling, add in Recaster, for some metamagic shenanigans.

My abomination of choice is Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5

Your persistent spells are 110% real and at caster level 40. ;)

Don't like recaster much. Conditional quicken spell and picking up a spell off-list is not worth the caster level loss. Haven't looked at the class in a while though.

[Killer Angel]

What are some of the best wizard prestige classes out there for full out rediculous optimization, grey elf elven generalist collegiate wizard spell mastery uncanny forethought type optimization. Focusing heavily on battlefield control and more or less just pressing the I win button.

Not so broken (not as the ones already mentioned, but still very powerful), but if you can convince the DM 'bout the background, Spellguard of Silverymoon is pretty strong for battlefield control.

[Yogibear41]

Shadow Craft mage makes me consider playing a whisper gnome instead, how do you think a whisper gnome holds up vs a gray elf, elven generalist?

[Rebel7284]

Shadow Craft mage makes me consider playing a whisper gnome instead, how do you think a whisper gnome holds up vs a gray elf, elven generalist?

Pretty nicely.

1. +4 Con compared to the elf is not insignificant.
2. Taking Illusionist, you get more Spells which makes up for the Int loss..
3. Gnome Illusionist substitution levels are pretty epic.

Banning 3 schools if you take Incantatrix is a little painful though. Evocation and Enchantment are easy picks, but the third is harder.

Note that with Illusionist 5th level ability to extend Illusions + Shadowcraft Mage's ability to extend Illusions + Metamagic Rod of Extend you have spells that last 8 times as long. Persistent spells last over a week. 10 minutes per level spells are now 80 minutes/level.

[Andion Isurand]

there is an adaptation for Shadowcraft Mage that allows any race to be one... but if you like gnomes, I would suggest...

----------------------------------------
Arcane Gnomes (3.0) from Dragon Magazine 291 (pg 34).

same features as the standard gnome, except:
+2 Int, -2 Wis (in addition to -2 Str, +2 Con)
Use Magic Device is always a class skill
they lose the Speak with Animals ability
have Wizard as their favored class
----------------------------------------

then if you want.. you could add the arctic template from dragon 306 and then make it Dragonborn...
-2 str, -2 dex, +6 con, +2 int, -2 wis, -2 cha

[Yogibear41]

the bonus to Con would be the greatest asset, I think the gnomes have a higher survival rate due to better hide, AC, and more HP, but I think the elfs have the better OP offensive abilities, not sure which one I should go with. The game I play in has pretty much houseruled that monsters get full attacks even after moving so being at 100% one second and then being dead next round is a high probability.

[Rebel7284]

the bonus to Con would be the greatest asset, I think the gnomes have a higher survival rate due to better hide, AC, and more HP, but I think the elfs have the better OP offensive abilities, not sure which one I should go with. The game I play in has pretty much houseruled that monsters get full attacks even after moving so being at 100% one second and then being dead next round is a high probability.

1. Do PCs get the same ability?
2. Greater Mirror Image is an immediate action. Learn to love it.
3. There is a cloak in one of the drow books that gives you abrupt jaunt 3 times a day when you are attacked, seems useful in this sort of game.
4. Craft Contingent Spell
5. Even with all of this, high HP is still important.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Circle Magic is pretty handy for heavy op. Halruaan Elder is an inferior choice imo so it's between Hathran and Red Wizard.
Red Wizard can be entered at 6, meaning you can make Simulacra that can lead their own circles at 20.
It has harsher requirements though since you need to give up an additional school (getting a little painful if you also want Incantatrix).

Hathran can only be entered at 8 at the earliest but provides unlimited spontaneus casting with Acorn of Far Travel and a few other nice abilities.
It also has Leadership as a prerequisite.

Circle Magic in generel boosts your spell DCs (via free heighten), your CL and gives you free empower and maximize.
You can fill the leftover levels with Shadowcraft Mage or Incantatrix to make it even more ridiculous if your campaign lasts that long
or take a dip into cleric and take 4 levels of Dweomerkeeper to get Supernatural Spell 1/day in exchange for one 8th and 9th level spell slot.

[Rebel7284]

Leadership as a prerequisite is a good excuse to take leadership. :smallwink:

Now you can play TWO tier 0 casters. :smallbiggrin:

[Mystral]

For 1 Level of Prestige Class, Mindbender is good. You loose nothing, but gain telepathy. Good for a stopgap, as well.

[Daftendirekt]

Not sure why master specialist is on that list, very minor benefits.


You answered your own question.


Shadowcraft mage

Gnome Illusionist (w/ sub. level) 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage = win. Check out the Minor School Esoterica for Illusion.

[Rebel7284]

You answered your own question.



Gnome Illusionist (w/ sub. level) 3/Master Specialist 4/Shadowcraft Mage = win. Check out the Minor School Esoterica for Illusion.

Because a free feat and a +2DC after 4 levels is something to write home about? I mean, it's a nice class, but we're talking about Incantrators and Dweomerkeepers here...

Also, missing out on the 5th level free extend sub level of Gnome Illusionist.

[Venger]

Because a free feat and a +2DC after 4 levels is something to write home about? I mean, it's a nice class, but we're talking about Incantrators and Dweomerkeepers here...

Also, missing out on the 5th level free extend sub level of Gnome Illusionist.

no, you wouldn't be in it for 4 levels. you'd maybe be in it for 2 levels. you can enter it as early as 4 to kill time before you hit 5 and qualify for normal prestige classes. you don't take it instead of these actual powerful classes, it's something to cool your heels in until you can hit the skill cap of 8 or get xth lvl spells for your other class.

[rockdeworld]

Tainted Scholar, and pretty much anything else banned by the Test of Spite.

Also, I direct your attention to these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258580) for some examples of TO wizard PrCs. Ironically it's hard to find an actual wizard on the list, but Mr. Roboto is one.

[Darth Stabber]

It you start taking levels of red wizard after you have access to 4th level spells, necromancy is not a bad call. You do lose access to some broken shenanigans, but there are ways to still get those. The big issue for metamagic aficionados is losing access to enervation, since that spell is one of the best metamagic seeds.


Plus animated dead is a good "sometimes spell", like when you kill a dragon, it's such a shame to let the corpse go to waste. Besides a zombie dragon will save you spell slots you would be spending on fly and/or overland flight. I am frequently amazed how many non-necromancer wizards forget they have it. It's not a spell you need to use all the time, but if you use it twice during the campaign on the really good corpses, it was worth transcribing. Plus the style points. And if you have them with you enemies might assume that you are a necromancer, until you smack them around with all your conjurations.

[Venger]

It you start taking levels of red wizard after you have access to 4th level spells, necromancy is not a bad call. You do lose access to some broken shenanigans, but there are ways to still get those. The big issue for metamagic aficionados is losing access to enervation, since that spell is one of the best metamagic seeds.


Plus animated dead is a good "sometimes spell", like when you kill a dragon, it's such a shame to let the corpse go to waste. Besides a zombie dragon will save you spell slots you would be spending on fly and/or overland flight. I am frequently amazed how many non-necromancer wizards forget they have it. It's not a spell you need to use all the time, but if you use it twice during the campaign on the really good corpses, it was worth transcribing. Plus the style points. And if you have them with you enemies might assume that you are a necromancer, until you smack them around with all your conjurations.

necro is a weak school because like enchantment, there are a lot of monsters that are immune to much of the school. almost all of its spells have saves, and most of them are fort, which is a worse and worse choice against monsters the higher level your characters get.

if you would like to specialize in metamagic, like most heavy op wizard characters do, then taking the spell versatility variant for transmuter 5 may be worthwhile

delay your 5th level until 7 (kill time in say, master specialist for 2 levels) and then nab enervation to treat it as a transmutation spell.

agree with you on animated dead.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It you start taking levels of red wizard after you have access to 4th level spells, necromancy is not a bad call. You do lose access to some broken shenanigans, but there are ways to still get those. The big issue for metamagic aficionados is losing access to enervation, since that spell is one of the best metamagic seeds.


Plus animated dead is a good "sometimes spell", like when you kill a dragon, it's such a shame to let the corpse go to waste. Besides a zombie dragon will save you spell slots you would be spending on fly and/or overland flight. I am frequently amazed how many non-necromancer wizards forget they have it. It's not a spell you need to use all the time, but if you use it twice during the campaign on the really good corpses, it was worth transcribing. Plus the style points. And if you have them with you enemies might assume that you are a necromancer, until you smack them around with all your conjurations.

If you delay Red Wizard till level 8 you lose pretty much the only benefit it has over going Hathran.
At leasts unless you want to be evil or craft items yourself.

[Darth Stabber]

If you delay Red Wizard till level 8 you lose pretty much the only benefit it has over going Hathran.
At leasts unless you want to be evil or craft items yourself.

It has the advantage of allowing evil, which is a clear advantage.

[Yogibear41]

Well, turns out I will be playing a druid instead of a wizard because there is a very good chance that its only going to be me and a half-fey bard for a few weeks and I don't see a bard and a wizard on their own working out to well starting at level 1 lol.

Sorry to shoot the thread in the foot lol, feel free to continue the discussion I will save the ideas for later lol.

[Killer Angel]

Well, turns out I will be playing a druid instead of a wizard

So, instead of breaking the campaign, you will shred it into tiny pieces? :smalltongue:

[Fouredged Sword]

So now you just want the most broken druid class. I would suggest Planer Shepard. Nothing like taking ten turns each round to make things better.

[Rebel7284]

After your are done with Planar Shepherd, you may also want to dip sacred exorcist for Turn Undead.

Optionally also Holt Warden+Contemplative for domain slots and Spell domain. Greater Anyspell->Celerity is nice.

:)

[cerin616]

Wizard 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 7/Rainbow Servant 10

Personal Favorite.

EDIT: OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I looked again and that isnt possible. Im sad now.

[Yogibear41]

probably will just go druid 20, maybe maybe go planar sheperd

druid 20 is pretty OP enough on its own, chance we may go spontaneous caster variant from UA because our DM dislikes the idea of anything "knowing the entire spell list"

[Venger]

probably will just go druid 20, maybe maybe go planar sheperd

druid 20 is pretty OP enough on its own, chance we may go spontaneous caster variant from UA because our DM dislikes the idea of anything "knowing the entire spell list"

if you still want to go for "full out ridiculous optimization" other than planar shepherd (dal quor) moonspeaker is one of the other few choices more powerful than druid 20

[Spuddles]

Anything that gives you a lot of free persistent spells is, imo, the most powerful. Incantatrix and the Halruan stuff.

Mage of the Arcane Order is weaksauce. I'd rather use a feat on Greyhawk Method or something if getting more spells known is going to be a problem. It gives far far too little for the opportunity costs.

Stuff like Beholder Mage & Illithid Savant approach TO, and those aren't really wizard prestige classes. Any class with UMD & a little cash can enter them. I suppose BM + Ultimate Magus on a wizard chassis is pretty good.


My abomination of choice is Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5

Your persistent spells are 110% real and at caster level 40. ;)

Don't like recaster much. Conditional quicken spell and picking up a spell off-list is not worth the caster level loss. Haven't looked at the class in a while though.

What evocation and conjuration spells are worth persisting? Seems like a pretty slim list.


necro is a weak school because like enchantment, there are a lot of monsters that are immune to much of the school. almost all of its spells have saves, and most of them are fort, which is a worse and worse choice against monsters the higher level your characters get.

Except for having pet Animated Dread Warriors. And Spellstitching. Necromancy is really powerful if you abuse having undead pets.


So now you just want the most broken druid class. I would suggest Planer Shepard. Nothing like taking ten turns each round to make things better.

Why settle at 10 rounds? Choose the Far Realms and get all the rounds.

[Amidus Drexel]

necro is a weak school because like enchantment, there are a lot of monsters that are immune to much of the school.

almost all of its spells have saves, and most of them are fort, which is a worse and worse choice against monsters the higher level your characters get.

This is true to an extent; but it really only applies to undead and constructs. The handful of mind-affecting (mostly fear) spells can be passed over unless you plan on focusing on that.

This I'm going to disagree with. A rather large amount of necromancy spells don't allow saves at all (ray of enfeeblement, enervation, vampiric touch, etc.), and a significant portion don't even require attack rolls. (waves of fatigue/exhaustion, curse of impending blades, etc). Also, nearly all of them that allow saves have an effect on a passed save (ray of exhaustion, finger of agony, etc.); so even if the monsters pass every save, you're still somewhat effective (barring mettle, but that's not particularly common).

Necromancy is leagues ahead of enchantment in this regard, and the only thing that seriously gets in the way of most necromancy spells is SR. (and there are ways to get around or overpower that). It's not on par with conjuration or transmutation as far as power goes, but it's any but weak. (unless you spend your entire campaign fighting golems, but then most schools are pretty weak).

[subject42]

Why settle at 10 rounds? Choose the Far Realms and get all the rounds.

You also end up with tree branches growing out of your eye sockets. If you're lucky, the tree branches won't do anything other than whisper your life's failings into your ears as you sleep.

[Darth Stabber]

This is true to an extent; but it really only applies to undead and constructs. The handful of mind-affecting (mostly fear) spells can be passed over unless you plan on focusing on that.

This I'm going to disagree with. A rather large amount of necromancy spells don't allow saves at all (ray of enfeeblement, enervation, vampiric touch, etc.), and a significant portion don't even require attack rolls. (waves of fatigue/exhaustion, curse of impending blades, etc). Also, nearly all of them that allow saves have an effect on a passed save (ray of exhaustion, finger of agony, etc.); so even if the monsters pass every save, you're still somewhat effective (barring mettle, but that's not particularly common).

Necromancy is leagues ahead of enchantment in this regard, and the only thing that seriously gets in the way of most necromancy spells is SR. (and there are ways to get around or overpower that). It's not on par with conjuration or transmutation as far as power goes, but it's any but weak. (unless you spend your entire campaign fighting golems, but then most schools are pretty weak).

Conjuration, transmutation, and abjuration are fairly broadly applicable. They lack will save effects, but buffs don't care about what the enemy has, and conjuration largely doesn't care about SR. I was suggesting that late necromancy is "the best 3rd ban" on the assumption that evocation and enchantment were the best first and second bans. The point was never that enchantment was better necro (at least not my contention), but that you have to keep divination, and necro can't compete with conjuration, transmutation, abjuration, or illusion. Ideally your GM isn't paying attention and you can take domain wizard, and count that as specialization.

[Fouredged Sword]

Anyone who binds themselves to the far realm deserves any crazy the dm decides to throw at them. I would have the character go through days in the wrong order and randomly teleport.

It's the far realms. You are supposed to not touch.

[Venger]

I was suggesting that late necromancy is "the best 3rd ban" on the assumption that evocation and enchantment were the best first and second bans.

yeah that was pretty much what I meant too.

[ahenobarbi]

Tainted Scholar, and pretty much anything else banned by the Test of Spite.

This so much.

Elven Generalist Domain Wizard 5 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Rainbow Servant 10

9th level spells @ level 1!
Practically unlimited spells @ level 6!
Full access to cleric list @ level 16!

:smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

You also end up with tree branches growing out of your eye sockets. If you're lucky, the tree branches won't do anything other than whisper your life's failings into your ears as you sleep.

Wait, are you getting this effect from somewhere, or is your "Improv Far Realm Effect" skill just that high? Cause that is brilliant. I almost need to sig that, it's so good.

I'm a big fan of that elven guy with the spiders, too. That image just sticks with me. Poor guy, has infinite spiders inside his skull, constantly trying to get out.

I really should send my players to the Far Realm more often. It's just a barrel of laughs as a DM.

[subject42]

Wait, are you getting this effect from somewhere, or is your "Improv Far Realm Effect" skill just that high? Cause that is brilliant. I almost need to sig that, it's so good.

I'm a big fan of that elven guy with the spiders, too. That image just sticks with me. Poor guy, has infinite spiders inside his skull, constantly trying to get out.

I really should send my players to the Far Realm more often. It's just a barrel of laughs as a DM.

I played a binder a while back that used the Zceryll vestige a lot. Since you gain the pseudonatural template, that was one of the tamer things I used to describe it.

Everyone needs to use the far realm more often. It's the best part of D&D.

[Spuddles]

Who was it that said playing in the far realm is lhaving the DM push his head through a cubist painting while singing nursery rhymes in farsi?

[Emmerask]

Initiate of the sevenfold veil imo, mainly because it does not require questionable rules application (like negative metamagic modifiers) which greatly depend on the dm.

Iotsv makes you a god on the battlefield out of the box pretty much.

[Darth Stabber]

Initiate of the sevenfold veil imo, mainly because it does not require questionable rules application (like negative metamagic modifiers) which greatly depend on the dm.

Iotsv makes you a god on the battlefield out of the box pretty much.

True enough, all the bad things prismatic spells can do, just pick one and do it. It's more of an immovable object than an irresistible force (incantrix), but an immovable object is the same thing as an irresistible force if you examine them from all angles. And even without negative metamagic modifiers incantrix is amazing.