Summon Undead Question

[EyethatBinds]

Alright, so here's a strange question. The spell out of Libris Mortis looks a little bit strange in it's wording. Summon Undead III allows a caster to summon a Huge Undead, but is completely mum on what type of undead you can summon except that it's able to be huge. This allows a 5th level wizard to summon a black dragon skeleton to serve him, which is a CR8. How is this even remotely balanced?

I double checked the book and it claims to be compatible with 3.5, in which skeletons became a template. This spell could easily wipe a party or heavily unbalance the game used as written.

Should this be banned outright?

[Deepbluediver]

If "Huge Size" and "Undead creature type" or the only limits on what it can summon, then I would vote yes*.

Using the monster finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/results.php?id=3306417536&skip=0) for those traits lists everything from Cloud Giant Skeletons and Skirr (CR 7) to Horrific Vasuthant and Crawling Head, CRs 17 and 20, respectively.


*I don't have access to the book atm, so I have not looked up the spell myself.

[Karnith]

If "Huge Size" and "Undead creature type" or the only limits on what it can summon, then I would vote yes*.
It's actually just Huge skeletons.

More importantly, though, the Summon Undead line of spells has been updated since it was printed in Libris Mortis. The most recent versions of the spells appear in the Spell Compendium (and Heroes of Horror, but the Spell Compendium is more recent), and Summon Undead III lets you summon a ghoul, a troll skeleton, or an ogre zombie.

[EyethatBinds]

If "Huge Size" and "Undead creature type" or the only limits on what it can summon, then I would vote yes*.


Well, the type of creature is pretty specific. You cannot summon other types of creatures. So skeletons only, or large zombies and a couple of medium sized undead with special abilities.

I'm just wondering how to make this either not quite as broken or possibly use it to my advantage, whichever.

[eggynack]

The summon undead line of spells was updated to the SpC, so you should probably just use that. There's some debate as to whether altered spells in the SpC creates new spells such that you can use them or the original at your discretion, or if they change old spells such that you can't use the original, but if it's a question of banning the original, using the SpC one seems like the easiest option. It's definitely better than banning outright, though the tarrasque destroying nature of allips could be slightly problematic, as it's on the summon undead list.

[Svata]

Use the version from the spell compendium instead. It has the following list of available summons.
1st Level: Human warrior skeleton (MM 226), kobold zombie (MM 266)
2nd Level: Owlbear skeleton (MM 226), bugbear zombie (MM 267).
3rd Level: Ghoul (MM 118), troll skeleton (MM 227), ogre zombie (MM 267).
4th Level: Allip (MM 10), ghast (MM 119), wyvern zombie (MM 267).
5th Level: Mummy (MM 190), shadow (MM 221), vampire spawn (MM 253), wight (MM 255).

It is as Summon Monster with regards as to which levels of the list can be summoned with which spell.
EDIT: Ninjas, Ninjas everywhere!

[Deepbluediver]

It's actually just Huge skeletons.

More importantly, though, the Summon Undead line of spells has been updated since it was printed in Libris Mortis. The most recent versions of the spells appear in the Spell Compendium, and Summon Undead III lets you summon a ghoul, a troll skeleton, or an ogre zombie.

Ah, ok. That would make slightly more sense.


Well, the type of creature is pretty specific. You cannot summon other types of creatures. So skeletons only, or large zombies and a couple of medium sized undead with special abilities.

I'm just wondering how to make this either not quite as broken or possibly use it to my advantage, whichever.

How much homebrewing or houseruling do you want to get involved with?

Again, not having read the spell itself, if your DM allows you manufacture your own creations, scour whatever splatbooks you have access to and figure out which creatures provide the best chassis to cram the skelly-template onto.


Personally, I don't really like the idea that I can Summon Undead; I feel that it makes it to much like a warmed over version of Summon Monster. Different flavor, but basically the same trick.

I'd rather have a set of spells like Animate Dead but for higher power levels and with more versatility, and had a different set costs and benefits. For example, requiring more time and greater inputs (such as corpses) but providing a longer-lasting and/or more durable minion.
That might be outside the scope of your request though, or you might just not want to take that route. I'd understand if that where the case, I'm just adding my 2 cp.

[EyethatBinds]

The most recent versions of the spells appear in the Spell Compendium (and Heroes of Horror, but the Spell Compendium is more recent), and Summon Undead III lets you summon a ghoul, a troll skeleton, or an ogre zombie.

Oh man, that's a relief. Thanks for reminding me.