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Sammo21
2006-12-12, 01:20 AM
Hey guys, I have been wanting to get into WarHammer 40k for about 3 years, and I finally have the space to be able to work on Warhammer stuff at my house. As of right now, I am having a tough time deciding 1.) Which army, or faction, to choose & 2.) How to build my army affectively.

I purchased the Battle At Macagre starter set, so I have a small ammount of space marines and Tyranids (which I am pretty set on NOT choosing). I think I want to play as Space Marines as I love the design of the armor and vehicles, but I am not sure.

Figured I would ask actual players than look up some stuff randomly on the net. Thanks ahead for any help!:smallsmile:

Hoggmaster
2006-12-12, 07:02 AM
Space Marines are a good army to start with, Very forgiving to the new player and very powerful. There are many viable army archetypes to choose from, armored rush, all infanty, all Terminator, Fast attack, et al.

The Codex: Space Marines should be your next purchase along with another tactical squad if that is the route you wish to take.

blackout
2006-12-12, 07:34 AM
I'd suggest Tau, if you like shooty-type armies. That's what I play.

DeathQuaker
2006-12-12, 07:47 AM
Well, first, since you've already got some 'nids and Space Marines and you say you like the Space Marines, I'd save some money at first, play with the Space Marines (maybe proxy some models to play a larger force) and see if you continue to like them after a few games.

Also, if you decide you want to get some use out of your Space Marines but also want to try something different, you could try allied forces. Space Marines can ally with other Imperium Armies--Guard, Daemonhunters, Witch Hunters. I'd research into this before I decided solidly on it, but it's an option since you've already got the SM figs.

Otherwise, same advice as I gave in the last "what 40K army should I play" thread:

1. Pick the one that appeals to you fluff and appearance-wise and therefore you will be passionate enough about to spend the time on it.

2. The one that suits your style of play the best. It will be easier IRL to talk to fellow 40K players and folks at your FLGS a little than here to understand and figure out what the different armies' strengths and weaknesses are. Quick examples... if you like to overwhelm with numbers more than firepower, Orks or Imperial Guard might be good. Tau as Blackout mentions are long range specialists. 'Nids are good for closecombat. Eldar and Dark Eldar are speedy and sneaky. And so forth.

3. I highly recommend proxying an army before buying one. 40K figs are expensive, and I have seen people passionately spend hundreds to even thousands of dollars on an army, and then realize it doesn't suit them. Borrow a friends' figs, use quarters or empty bases, whatever, and make sure you like playing an army before you buy it. Of course it helps if you already have the codexes (technically, codices, I guess), but hopefully you have some friends you can borrow some codexes from.

FarseerUlthran
2006-12-12, 06:22 PM
I would recomend not starting with Marines, or for that matter playing them at all. Why? They are the most common army, they are the most boring to play with and against, they are (contrary to popular belief) one of the weakest armies in the game.
I would start by proxying various forces and reading all the codices. You should then be able to determine what style you want to play and choose an army that is good at that style as opposed to the boring, exceedingly average, over-hyped, and over-played Space Marines. Granted their fluff is kind of cool...sort of, not really.

Matthew
2006-12-12, 06:29 PM
Contrary opinion. Nothing wrong with Marines, they're great fun to play! They are, though, a very common choice. Play Imperial Guard if you like a challenge!

SilverElf4
2006-12-12, 07:28 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with the suggestion of proxy. Even if you think you know what you like. And be well aware that at least half of Warhammer is modeling. I bought a Tau army, I love shooty armies, and they looked great.

But they are extremely difficult to put together and paint, and thus mostly remain on my shelf gathering dust.

Buy a few blisters of the three armies your most interested in and paint them and play with them filling them out with quarters or cardboard as proxies and see how you do. A 20-30 dollar investment like this will make your enjoyment of the game that much better.

Also - check with the staff of the store on release schedules. Nothing like buying and assembling an army and having GW rewrite the army rules *again.*

Scene at GW HQ:

Coworker 1: "Damn, these car payments are really squeezing my budget more than I thought they would."
Coworker 2: "No problem, we'll just rewrite the <insert name of codex you just bought> again.
Coworker 2: "And sculpt a new line of models for them! I feel better already..."

blackout
2006-12-12, 08:49 PM
O_o My Tau! Codex Rewrite... Noooooooooooooo! Must! Destroy! Codex Copies! Before They! Reach Market! And! Stop Talking In! Short Bursts Of Dialogue!

DeathQuaker
2006-12-12, 08:58 PM
I would recomend not starting with Marines, or for that matter playing them at all. Why? They are the most common army, they are the most boring to play with and against, they are (contrary to popular belief) one of the weakest armies in the game.
I would start by proxying various forces and reading all the codices. You should then be able to determine what style you want to play and choose an army that is good at that style as opposed to the boring, exceedingly average, over-hyped, and over-played Space Marines. Granted their fluff is kind of cool...sort of, not really.

He mentioned he already has some and enjoyed playing them. If he decides to go with them, it's money he's already spent, and he'll have fun. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree SMs are overplayed, but playing something else just to be "different" doesn't work. These figs are expensive, and you need to collect whatever you'll have the most fun collecting.

Sammo21
2006-12-12, 10:32 PM
Thanks for all the help guys. My friend bought me a Space Marine Commander to go with my stuff, so I will prolly use proxies for anything else I want. Thanks for all the help, my local gameswork shop affiliate is going to start 1000point tourneys for noobies next month, so i will be getting in on that. If I have any other questions, I will be sure to ask. Thanks again!

blackout
2006-12-13, 07:47 AM
Anytime, newbie. Just remember: The non-jerks are your friends.

Selrahc
2006-12-13, 11:47 AM
Space Marines rock. You made a cool choice.

((My experience with standard marines: Don't get assault marines they really aren't worth the points))

CaptainSam
2006-12-13, 12:47 PM
Dark Eldar! 'Nuff said! Easy to paint, only one codex, rarity value. Be prepared to lose a lot, though! Or run away, like I did!

Oh, and best of all, you can paint them up like Drow (just don't tell GW, they'll only whine.)

Okay, taking a risk here and posting some of my long-ago painted miniatures (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b84/AngusMcHaggis/Non-DAoC%20Stuff/Dark%20Eldar/). Apologies for the poor quality of some, but I've never used the macro function on the camera before.

Matthew
2006-12-13, 12:48 PM
((My experience with standard marines: Don't get assault marines they really aren't worth the points))

Unless you dump their stupid Rocket Packs and stick them in a Land Raider (or whatever). Biggest advantage is that they can actually be equipped with Melta Grenades, which can be very handy for taking out Dreadnoughts and Vehicles (not bloody Eldar Wraith things, though!).

Timberwolf
2006-12-13, 01:29 PM
As far as I go, take a look through the 40k catalogue and pick what you want to play, what you like the look of, who has the weapons you feel most comfortable with. If I had the inclination to make a comeback, I'd probably go with Tau today but about 10 years ago (Before Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar as well I think and Tyrannids were very very new and shiny), I had Space Marines. They were expensive both in points and money but I enjoyed them, even if they are the army of cheese. If I were going to go with Space Marines these days, I'd make it a Space Wolves army because generally, I always like hand to hand, short range work almost as much as I enjoy raining firey death from a distance. Anyway, just peruse things, see what you like, who you like the sound of, who has the best backstory for you and most importantly, have fun. If Space Marines look like fun to you then go for it.

DarkCorax
2006-12-13, 03:10 PM
((My experience with standard marines: Don't get assault marines they really aren't worth the points))

I'll object to that, I often use a full squad of them, and with a Commander with Lightining claws, they can take out units in a turn, if they charge... (but then again, the same thing can be achived with "Take The Fight To Them"...), but yeah, the Jump Packs are over-priced.

Matthew
2006-12-13, 05:16 PM
Melta Grenades and their status as Fast Attack (i.e. they don't count against the other choices) are pretty much the best reasons to choose an Assault Squad.
Command Squads and Veteran Squads make amazing hand to hand troops, but they are very expensive. Still, it is worth it just to see the look on an Eldar Player's face...

Narmoth
2006-12-14, 04:17 PM
If you like the space marines, but want to have a more unike army, you can play a different chapter than ultramarines, you can make them a new 2nd founding chapter that has the abillities of an exsisting chapter, and it is even possible to create a new chapter different from all other with the rules for chapter traits in the newest space marines codex.

Sammo21
2006-12-16, 03:06 AM
It looks like I am going to make a Blood Ravens army, since they are more obscure. Plus I like the colors.

Narmoth
2006-12-16, 04:43 AM
Have fun. Happy you found an army you like
http://uk.games-workshop.com/campaignweekends/sabbat-crusade/images/br-devastators-2-lg.jpg

Selrahc
2006-12-16, 04:55 AM
It looks like I am going to make a Blood Ravens army, since they are more obscure. Plus I like the colors.

More obscure than?

In my view they're probably the second most known chapter after the Ultramarines thanks to Dawn of War(I've personally seen three people playing the Blood Ravens).

But liking the feel of the chapter and the colour scheme is the more important part.

Sammo21
2006-12-16, 06:09 AM
Sorry, what I meant was they are less known and played than a chapter like Ultra Marines or Space Wolves :p.

Crazy Owl
2006-12-16, 09:06 AM
Actually since DOW Blood Ravens is quite a well played chapter and is more known than quite a lot of chapters. Ive actually met more people who know about Blood Ravens than Dark Angels since DOW came out.

DeathQuaker
2006-12-16, 09:11 AM
Probably depends on the particular circle of players you hang with. Everyone I play 40K with has never played Dawn of War, and the most of the SM players I know do Dark Angels, Space Wolves, or Ultramarines.

Some folks also do homebrew chapters.

I admit though, I've not been playing as often as I used to. My tourney army's painted now, though, so I'm trying to get back into things and be fresh in the mind for Games Day next year.

Crazy Owl
2006-12-16, 09:13 AM
I play at the GW stores normally but unfortunately they don't allow more than 500 Points which really put me off playing.

DeathQuaker
2006-12-16, 09:16 AM
I play at the GW stores normally but unfortunately they don't allow more than 500 Points which really put me off playing.

If you can find a regular local gaming store with tables, I've found that's a better place to play. Most GW stores cater to newbs and young ones at that (trying to addict them early).

Plus, I've found that GW Store Staff are not particularly professional... especially towards women, so being a woman, I tend to avoid them.

Crazy Owl
2006-12-16, 09:19 AM
The Staff used to be alright, whenever Ive met one that Ive known from a while ago they are usually quite good but all the new ones seem to know nothing. I miss the good old days when you could talk to them about fluff not just when models are going to come out.

Matthew
2006-12-16, 11:07 AM
I miss the days when they didn't have a corporate uniform and most had beards...

Homebrewed Space Marine Chapter for me...

SilverElf4
2006-12-16, 11:47 AM
Sorry, what I meant was they are less known and played than a chapter like Ultra Marines or Space Wolves :p.

Yeah but the Wolves are the only ones who can field a *real* tank...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/SilverElf4/swtankb.jpg


ETA: I should note for the record that I did not paint this, I just found the picture. I suck at painting, as any glance at my monochrome panzer grey Tau would demonstrate...

Timberwolf
2006-12-16, 08:26 PM
Ok, I give up, what the heck is that thing ?

When I go home for Christmas I'm so going to see if my mum hasn't thrown out my old miniatures. I got some Space Marines that if repainted at bit would look very nice with that.

Ps,

Does any one know what the position with using really old miniatures is ? I got a tactical squad and a terminator squad that should be fine because the models don't seem to have changed much. But I've also got a Blood Angels Death company (bought back when it came with 10 models instead of 5), Blood Angels Captain Tycho (who I see is still with us but in rather diffferent to my old model form), an Inquisitor, an Assassin (don't ask me which type) and a really ancient (I think it might be an original model) Predator from back before there was a choice of weapons and which kind of Predator you had. IIRC, it was Autocannon and 2 Lascannons or nothing but my memory could be playing me false. Anyway, if I can find them, anyone know if I could still use them and what points they come to now ? Been so long, I forget. Heck, they're probably not even legal as an army (me and my friends never really sweated that...., we were more about the fun side of things) but it might be fun to make a little comeback for as little money as possible (new rulebook, new codex, whatever troops I need to make my army legal, that sweet looking tank....)

Saithis Bladewing
2006-12-16, 08:31 PM
If you mean the tank, that's a Leman Russ. Space Wolves can field them, the ingame flavour being that they were granted the use of the tanks to honour the naming of it after the Space Wolves' primarch.

Timberwolf
2006-12-16, 08:43 PM
Cool, thought it might be. Not too hot on IG stuff unfortunately.

Pilum
2006-12-16, 09:12 PM
Ps, Does any one know what the position with using really old miniatures is?
Don't know why anyone would have a problem; the typical response when I dig out some of the more antediluvian elements of my collection is "Wow, cool, what are they? Where did you get them from?" The only possible objection may be a particularly joyless shop goon, but as long as it's a Citadel miniature (or, for the REAL oldies out there, a Marauder :smallwink: ) they shouldn't say anything. Besides, the whole, "you must use our stuff" thing only really applies if you want to play in the shop or official tournaments, and in any case their response is typically, "Wow, cool, etc" :smallsmile: Now, a confession: I'm not that up on current SM rules, but:


I've also got a Blood Angels Death company (bought back when it came with 10 models instead of 5)If everyone's least favourite future vampires aren't still with us, proxy them in as Assault Marines; from (painful!) memory the models came with that type of kit anyway.


Blood Angels Captain Tycho (who I see is still with us but in rather diffferent to my old model form), an Inquisitor, an Assassin (don't ask me which type) All of which could still be used as their direct equivalent.


and a really ancient (I think it might be an original model) Predator from back before there was a choice of weapons and which kind of Predator you had. IIRC, it was Autocannon and 2 Lascannons or nothing but my memory could be playing me false. Anyway, if I can find them, anyone know if I could still use them and what points they come to now ?Heh, that the old one with the rounded turret? That was my first ever GW tank kit, that... Anyway, I think a Pred variant with turreted autocannon and sponsoned lascannons is still with us, is it called the Destructor these days? Just flip through the heavy support section of the SM codex and they should be there. And one advantage of 40k, and arguably being marines, is that if anyone bitches, you can slip into roleplay mode and bore them about how this particular Predator is actually a Mk.1a, was one of the first out of the Martian manufactories, and has seen conflict almost as long as the empire, and its continued presence is due to your reverence of your honoured predecessors who fought for Him-on-Earth with this very vehicle etc etc etc blah blah blah bull bull bull :smalltongue:


Heck, they're probably not even legal as an army (me and my friends never really sweated that...., we were more about the fun side of things) but it might be fun to make a little comeback for as little money as possible (new rulebook, new codex, whatever troops I need to make my army legal, that sweet looking tank....)Actually, Marines are the cheapest army to "get legal". All a Marine 'army' needs is 11 models; 2 x 5-man Tactical/Scout squads and a commander figure. Good luck, hope you enjoy your return to the Dark Side :smallbiggrin:

Timberwolf
2006-12-16, 09:28 PM
Good luck, hope you enjoy your return to the Dark Side :smallbiggrin:


Cheers, bet they've been thrown out though :smallannoyed: . Yeah, thats the Predator I had. If it's still with me, I'll have to remember to do the fluff. see if I can send my opponant to sleep and win by default. Snh Snh snh.

If they have been thrown out then I'm going to look around and see what I like. Always had a soft spot for Imperial guard myself and the Tau look like a nice, solid choice for blowey uppy of thrice cursed Chaos demons or those Necron abominations.

Either way, new codex, new rulebook, new models. *whistles We wish you a merry christmas*

Pilum
2006-12-16, 10:03 PM
Cheers, bet they've been thrown out though :smallannoyed: . Yeah, thats the Predator I had.

Well, good news timberwolf (or bad, if you were hoping to gouge even more new models out of family and friends for chrimbo!) is this (edited) from the GW site:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/tactica%2Dtanks/2/ , 6th paragraph

..."the Destructor's autocannon... with sponson lascannons..."

As to how it all points up though, I don't know. You *will* need to gouge the codex and the rulebook for that! :smallwink:

Timberwolf
2006-12-16, 10:21 PM
"The prospect of that gun actually firing....". Tidy. *nods*

Hmmmm

Maybe I'll start Space Marines again anyway, even if I can't find my old stuff. I always wanted to play with a Dreadnought. They look fun too.

SilverElf4
2006-12-17, 01:39 PM
Yeah, I'm a sucker for the tanks of the 40k universe. Since you mention Blood Angels, thats my hands down favorite tank, the new Baal Predator - what is it, like Mk II or something?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c13/SilverElf4/smtank.jpg

Saithis Bladewing
2006-12-17, 01:50 PM
I do love the Baal predator quite a bit, I think its tied with a Predator Annihilator w/ Heavy Bolter Side Sponsons for my favourite vehicle.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/tactica-tanks/images/dark-angels-right.jpg

DeathQuaker
2006-12-17, 08:05 PM
Does any one know what the position with using really old miniatures is ? I got a tactical squad and a terminator squad that should be fine because the models don't seem to have changed much.

There should be no problem with using old miniatures as long as they satisfy WYSIWYG rules (and you only need to worry about that if you're playing a GW-sanctioned game, like in a tournament or something).

Regarding your terminators, make sure you put them on a large base. They're supposed to be on the larger round bases now, not the smaller ones used for normal sized humanoids.

heretic
2006-12-17, 08:52 PM
This may be a bit belated, but if you are still deciding what to play, no not choose Tau of Tyranids. A lot of noobs get obsessed with the Tau and then it makes the experienced players look bad. And IMHO, there are too many Tau players anyway. With Tyranids, you have to resist the urge to just constantly charge. If you do you might win, but have absolutely no tactics to credit for your victory. Many people get bored of 'nids because of this.

SilverElf4
2006-12-17, 08:57 PM
I do love the Baal predator quite a bit, I think its tied with a Predator Annihilator w/ Heavy Bolter Side Sponsons for my favourite vehicle.


Yeah, the ammo feed on the sponsons looks fantastic, and Predators just feel like they should have two barrels up top.

LunaWolvesMan
2006-12-17, 11:59 PM
Does any one know what the position with using really old miniatures is ? I got a tactical squad and a terminator squad that should be fine because the models don't seem to have changed much. But I've also got a Blood Angels Death company (bought back when it came with 10 models instead of 5), Blood Angels Captain Tycho (who I see is still with us but in rather diffferent to my old model form), an Inquisitor, an Assassin (don't ask me which type) and a really ancient (I think it might be an original model) Predator from back before there was a choice of weapons and which kind of Predator you had. IIRC, it was Autocannon and 2 Lascannons or nothing but my memory could be playing me false. Anyway, if I can find them, anyone know if I could still use them and what points they come to now ? Been so long, I forget. Heck, they're probably not even legal as an army (me and my friends never really sweated that...., we were more about the fun side of things) but it might be fun to make a little comeback for as little money as possible (new rulebook, new codex, whatever troops I need to make my army legal, that sweet looking tank....)

Essentially you can use any older models provided you keep them on the latest size of bases for the models and even this isn't *that* big of an issue. For instance the newer terminators are on the 40mm bases and the old ones were on the 25mm. In general it's a rare case where it would even make a difference to the game.

But yeah, use em if you got em, just update point values and such, and look to make sure that the weapon options haven't changed.

Dragor
2006-12-18, 07:24 AM
I've just started in 40K too- and, same as you Sammo, wanted to collect but haven't had the time/space/money/all of the above.
After a lot of thought, I got some Orks. I'm sort of regretting the decision of buying a lot of models at once, because now I have a lot of grey and not a lot of colour- and they won't allow my Warboss into my local GW store (it's from a different company, but it looks absoloutely awesome.)
I'm now being tempted by Witch Hunters as a sort of 'side-army'.... anybody else got advice on this?

DeathQuaker
2006-12-18, 07:45 AM
I've just started in 40K too- and, same as you Sammo, wanted to collect but haven't had the time/space/money/all of the above.
After a lot of thought, I got some Orks. I'm sort of regretting the decision of buying a lot of models at once, because now I have a lot of grey and not a lot of colour- and they won't allow my Warboss into my local GW store (it's from a different company, but it looks absoloutely awesome.)
I'm now being tempted by Witch Hunters as a sort of 'side-army'.... anybody else got advice on this?

I play Witch Hunters and love'em. Whaddya wanna know?

Hoggmaster
2006-12-18, 02:35 PM
in tourneys and in a GW store you must use "official GW" figs....however they can be of any age...

For example my 3000 fantasy beasts of chaos army is all metal figures (no minotaurs) a very heavy and OOP army... play in tourneys and get looks of nostalgia...

Any Ordo army is a good side army to collect if you run any type of Imperium force (SM or IG) as they can ally with an Ordo force or vice versa (crosses fingers for Ordo Xenos release *please, please*)

Crazy Owl
2006-12-19, 02:22 AM
I'm supirsed they didn't make Alien Hunters first. They looked the easier of three to make.

Hoggmaster
2006-12-19, 06:55 AM
In theory yes, but there was a lot more ideas floating out there ... the only base reference for the Ordo Xenos was the Deathwatch SM... however for the other two you had Grey Knights, Inquisitors, Assassins, Sisters o Battle, et al.

On a side note a Death Watch kill team is a great add-on for your Imperial Force!

Mercator
2006-12-19, 11:04 AM
In response to earlier comments
Well, Blood Ravens might be well known, popular even, but you have to be aware of what operates in his local circles. Where I grew up, when a new codex hit, the investors would all field a small-ish army of the hot newness and after six months they'd pack their things and go back to their favorites. Blood Raven may not have any representative players in his area or they could be so fringe or retired that they don't come out of their garages but once a month.

All in all, Space Marine is pretty generic, very standard and pretty easy to play. But then, it was a game about Marines and Eldar, in the beginning. But you can go a fair ways to making your army look or operate uniquely to the norm. For instance, I like not having psykers.
- - -

I'd have to check, but I thought Order Xenos was next on the list after the Eldar rewrite?
It almost looks like they've got everything else covered since the rules update, specially since some books (Like Orcs) were set for new rules before 4th Ed released.

Matthew
2006-12-19, 12:10 PM
When was it a game of Marines and Eldar? Doesn't look that way in my Rogue Trader...

Mercator
2006-12-19, 02:07 PM
-Edited prior comment-
I see my mistake, my apologies. 1st Ed 40k was Marines and Eldar, according to my meager research. Rogue Trader was something else.

And I'd be damned impressed to find anyone still playing Rogue Trader, at that.

btw.. side note. Has anyone else considered using the Wraith Lord as a "magical construct" for their tabletop game? I had that notion the other day and it just seemed appropriate..
..might just be me.

Beelzebub1111
2006-12-19, 02:22 PM
Where is the love for T'zneech? Slow and steady wins the race. Heavy supressing fire from bolters with radial damage dosn't hurt either.

Crazy Owl
2006-12-19, 04:14 PM
Since the rules for rapid fire weapons were changed slow and purposeful isn't as useful as it was.

Mercator
2006-12-19, 05:08 PM
And I don't know anybody who talks Chaos to a new player. Chaos is.. strange. And tricky. There's Undivided... or Nurgle, my personal favorite.

But then, I chant "The Gifts of Nurgle are many!" while watching House.

And I thought I'd seen reference somewhere that Chaois isn't reccomended for new players.

I'm not 100% why, but I thought I'd seen that.

Crazy Owl
2006-12-19, 06:06 PM
I would say quite the opposite. They are probably the second best starter army, not including SM variants, because they are just so similiar to SM. The only thing that would make them worse would probably be making and painting them compared to normal Marines but its still easier than painting 100 Imperial Lemmings.

Matthew
2006-12-19, 06:21 PM
And I'd be damned impressed to find anyone still playing Rogue Trader, at that.

As far as I know Rogue Trader was War Hammer 40K First Edition. I still play it when I get the opportunity, optional Marine rules, Over Watch and all... sadly it's true that most games are Fourth Edition these days...

Mercator
2006-12-19, 09:33 PM
I only have a few gripes with 40k and 4th Ed in general. Among those is Overwatch. I miss Overwatch. And then i have my personal objection to the orbital deployment rules. I rather like the thought of teleporting some Grey Knights directly into Melee. It makes me fuzzy inside.

But noooo. No Overwatch, no insta-melee. I can't even self-sacrifice and shoot into a melee. Even supposing there's one marine in that pack, and I/my opponent/the figure/deity know he's not making it out alive. Nope, can't shoot in there and mow 'em all down. Can't artillery myself. Apparently tactical sacrifices weren't envisioned in GW's grand plan.

Ah well. There's always hope for home games or 5th Ed. :biggrin:

Dragor
2006-12-20, 04:29 AM
I play Witch Hunters and love'em. Whaddya wanna know?

If I should bin my Ork army in favour of Witch Hunters. They look very good (and the Sisters of Battle look very good for some painting). I like my Orks, but I wish I hadn't made a rushed decision on collecting them, instead of looking at the available options...

I'm a bit gutted now. :(

Crazy Owl
2006-12-20, 08:48 AM
Don't throw them away. I thought I would never play Space Marines again but I ended up needing them here and there for small things like showing friends the game.

Matthew
2006-12-20, 09:53 AM
I only have a few gripes with 40k and 4th Ed in general. Among those is Overwatch. I miss Overwatch. And then i have my personal objection to the orbital deployment rules. I rather like the thought of teleporting some Grey Knights directly into Melee. It makes me fuzzy inside.

But noooo. No Overwatch, no insta-melee. I can't even self-sacrifice and shoot into a melee. Even supposing there's one marine in that pack, and I/my opponent/the figure/deity know he's not making it out alive. Nope, can't shoot in there and mow 'em all down. Can't artillery myself. Apparently tactical sacrifices weren't envisioned in GW's grand plan.

Yup, it's a sad change. Overwatch was a great rule and hardly complicated, it solved some serious issues with the turn based game! It's stupid that you can't shoot into melee. I also miss the option of running away from charging enemies...

"Gah! They're charging! Leg it lads!"

Of course, it wouldn't be too hard to just port those rules onto WH40K 4.0

Dragor
2006-12-20, 10:14 AM
Don't throw them away. I thought I would never play Space Marines again but I ended up needing them here and there for small things like showing friends the game.

Orks- not extremely good for showing people how to play the game- almost no tactics to speak off except use cover/charge forward until you get to them and then assault.

Selling them isn't a prospect because I'm a crap painter at the moment, and most of them are pretty shoddy. Might just collect Witch Hunters as well as Orks? :smallconfused:

Crazy Owl
2006-12-20, 01:43 PM
I didn't mean just for teaching others how to play, I'm sure you will find a use for them eventually. Unless you have no space in your house to keep them it doesn't seem worth it to just throw them away.

Dragor
2006-12-20, 02:43 PM
I didn't mean just for teaching others how to play, I'm sure you will find a use for them eventually. Unless you have no space in your house to keep them it doesn't seem worth it to just throw them away.

I just want to.... you know... put them to one side for a bit. I won't dump them- just want to know whether it's wise to go around collecting two armies at once- and if its easy to manage.

Drascin
2006-12-20, 04:23 PM
Myself, I was thinking of starting 40k. However, I am doubting which army to choose. I like Tau, since they seem far more optimistic and tolerant than most 40k races, and seem to be the ones with the code I agree most with (plus after dawn of war the mere vision of twenty firewarriors ready to fire just makes me all fuzzy inside :P). But I also like Tyranid, seeing as they are horrible soulless genetic aberrations whose sole objective is to devour worlds. Plus they're just so cute ^^.

Yah, I'm a bit of a bipolar :P.

Anyway, are those armies difficult to play? Are they strong? And what are their chances against Space Marines (since that is what EVERYONE here seems to play . Well, except for a guy who plays Imperial Guard)? I don't play things for their power, but I'd like to win at least a little.

Dragor
2006-12-20, 04:56 PM
Myself, I was thinking of starting 40k. However, I am doubting which army to choose. I like Tau, since they seem far more optimistic and tolerant than most 40k races, and seem to be the ones with the code I agree most with (plus after dawn of war the mere vision of twenty firewarriors ready to fire just makes me all fuzzy inside :P). But I also like Tyranid, seeing as they are horrible soulless genetic aberrations whose sole objective is to devour worlds. Plus they're just so cute ^^.

Yah, I'm a bit of a bipolar :P.

Anyway, are those armies difficult to play? Are they strong? And what are their chances against Space Marines (since that is what EVERYONE here seems to play . Well, except for a guy who plays Imperial Guard)? I don't play things for their power, but I'd like to win at least a little.

I feel exactly how you feel. Practically all my mates were playing Space Marines. I wasn't very happy about one army having a whole parade to itself. If you want to be different, collecting Tyranids (or 'Nids, if you want to abbreviate) is a good choice.

I don't know what twisted mind you have to say they're cute, by the way :D 'Nids are pretty brutal and are very satisfying to use in battle. They can tear Marines apart if you know what you're doing. My advice is to seek out an experienced 'Nid player (a friend, or perhaps checking out the local GW store and asking the staff, who are always pretty helpful.)

The Tau are also a very popular alien race, and (in my view) seem to have the best ideology of all of them, using the caste system instead of 'Right, you do this, or die' of the other races.
Their ranged attacks and heavy vehicles are very brutal and can make a Space Marine quake in his boots (but his excuse will be that some of his bio-engineering is fluxing....?) and are an equal for almost any race.

Choose which one you like of its background in general, not how it plays. Hope this helps. :smallsmile:

Timberwolf
2006-12-20, 06:33 PM
And what are their chances against Space Marines (since that is what EVERYONE here seems to play . Well, except for a guy who plays Imperial Guard)?

I think I'm the only person round here who'd even consider playing basic Space Marines from what I've picked up posting in some of the other 40K threads. And even then that's because I think I've still got my models somewhere from back when it was a choice of Chaos, Eldar, Orks or Space Marines and, basically, I'm cheap and have no money.

Anyway, go with what you think look like fun, that's the main thing, the fun. Philosphy comes in a poor second to fun. Go with what lloks like the one you'll enjoy playing the most. If tearing Imperial lackeys to shreds with your close range bioneered Xenomorphs floats your boat then go for 'Nids, if laying down a torrent of fire from affar is your thing then go Tau. If you like a bit of both (like I do), go Marines, if you like minimalist tactics, go Orks, If you like bizarre powers and Space Marines in 1 mix, go Chaos, if you like really big armies, go Imperial guard, for troops that never die, go Necron and for speed and elegance, go Eldar,

Crazy Owl
2006-12-20, 06:43 PM
I just want to.... you know... put them to one side for a bit. I won't dump them- just want to know whether it's wise to go around collecting two armies at once- and if its easy to manage.

Thats more what I meant, just leave them to one side. I left my first space marine army that was a made up chapter to one side and eventually just repainted theem and now I have quite a nice Black Templars Army. All I need now is the new codex for them.

Narmoth
2006-12-21, 04:46 AM
I think I'm the only person round here who'd even consider playing basic Space Marines from what I've picked up posting in some of the other 40K threads. And even then that's because I think I've still got my models somewhere from back when it was a choice of Chaos, Eldar, Orks or Space Marines and, basically, I'm cheap and have no money.


Why play "standard space marines" when you can play your own specially designed 2nd. founding chapter? :smallbiggrin:
Then again, why not? :smalltongue:

DeathQuaker
2006-12-21, 09:36 AM
Selling them isn't a prospect because I'm a crap painter at the moment, and most of them are pretty shoddy. Might just collect Witch Hunters as well as Orks? :smallconfused:

Actually, if you are considering selling the orks, people will buy crappily painted figs off Ebay--AS LONG AS you are clear that the paint jobs are bad, and that's not why you're selling them. A lot of times people buy figs off of Ebay because they're cheaper than buying in store, and then they just strip the paint off them--regardless of whether the paint job is shoddy or not, especially if they are buying from more than one source. I'm fairly certain some figures I was hired to paint got sold on Ebay, and there's a good chance they were dunked in stripper after the fact. All that hard work for nothing... :smallfrown:

Sorry, went off on a tangent there. If YOU don't care about your own paint job, anyway, you can sell them and someone will buy them.

BUT... also, you don't have to sell the figs, of course. Even if you put a hiatus on collecting them, they may come in handy later, or you can use them as proxies as you build your other army.

I wouldn't collect simultaneously though. That invites some serious money crunch, there. Plus, it's better to focus on building your tactics for one army at a time.

One nice thing about collecting Sisters-heavy Witch Hunters, is the Battle Sisters figs are meant to be used for ALL Adepta Sororitas units except Seraphim (and you could even convert ordinary units into Seraphs pretty easily). And therefore, if suddenly you decide you don't need that Dominion Squad, you just repaint them and add them to your troops.

Timberwolf
2006-12-21, 10:31 AM
Why play "standard space marines" when you can play your own specially designed 2nd. founding chapter? :smallbiggrin:
Then again, why not? :smalltongue:


By standard space marines, I mean boltgun equiped power armour wearing cheese monsters who drive land raiders in general, not the GW chapters specicifically. But yeah, I'd probably go for a GW chapter simply because I'm using all my imagination on other stuff atm.

Drascin
2006-12-21, 01:57 PM
I think I'm the only person round here who'd even consider playing basic Space Marines from what I've picked up posting in some of the other 40K threads. And even then that's because I think I've still got my models somewhere from back when it was a choice of Chaos, Eldar, Orks or Space Marines and, basically, I'm cheap and have no money.

I wasn't attacking you or anything, in fact I wasn't even referencing the thread, I simply meant that in my area everyone plays marines, so I wanted an army that could beat them :P.

And I'm sorry, but I have to disagree a bit with the second part: for me, the philosophy and background of the armies are very important. I didn't play Lizardmen in Fantasy only (though I'd admit it did play a part ^^u) because they were reptilian (and therefore cooler than all mammal-based armies :P), but also because they had such an interesting background. While all races where trying to smash each other for their own interests, the Slann were trying desperately to bring balance to the world, peacefully at first, and then whacking people over the head if they wouldn't listen (and they had some damn good sticks for that :smallbiggrin:).

I can just picture how it could go:

--------------------------------

-Slann: You have to stop fighting! It is all against the plans of the Ancestrals, and is only going to strengthen Chaos!
-Human: You have no proof of what the Ancestrals planned! I believe in our ways! For Sigmar!
-Slann: Uuuhh... proof? Ya know, I kinda was there when the world was created...
-Human: I'm not listening! I mock your pitiful reason and subtitute it for my sheer, blind faith and extremism!
-Slann: *slaps forehead with frog-like hand, sighs, blasts human with a lightning* Stupid young whippersnappers...

--------------------------------

:smallwink:


I don't know what twisted mind you have to say they're cute, by the way...

Believe me, you're happier not knowing ;). But anyway, even when I was a kid, I tended to always root for the villain in most cartoons, since he was the one who had all the cool monsters, so I guess this tendency of mine goes pretty far...

But, despite that, I think I'm going to get Tau, because, judging from your description (thanks for taking the time for that, btw ^^) they seem to have so different tactics to what I'm used to play in fantasy. I like to have variety. Plus it's going to feel refreshing to be on the right side of the artillery barrage for once :P. Also, I got to look at the codex a bit more, and they look really nice. So, chalk up one more in service of the Greater Good ;)

Timberwolf
2006-12-21, 03:51 PM
I wasn't attacking you or anything, in fact I wasn't even referencing the thread, I simply meant that in my area everyone plays marines, so I wanted an army that could beat them :P.


No worries, I know you weren't. Guess I'm sounding defensive again, it's my sense of humour, don't let it worry you, apparently it takes a year long apprenticeship before anyone finds me funny. No cookie for me.:smallfrown:

Dragor
2006-12-22, 09:43 AM
thanks for taking the time for that, btw ^^

Hey, no problem. I'm here to help :smallbiggrin:


Actually, if you are considering selling the orks, people will buy crappily painted figs off Ebay--AS LONG AS you are clear that the paint jobs are bad, and that's not why you're selling them. A lot of times people buy figs off of Ebay because they're cheaper than buying in store, and then they just strip the paint off them--regardless of whether the paint job is shoddy or not, especially if they are buying from more than one source. I'm fairly certain some figures I was hired to paint got sold on Ebay, and there's a good chance they were dunked in stripper after the fact. All that hard work for nothing...

Sorry, went off on a tangent there. If YOU don't care about your own paint job, anyway, you can sell them and someone will buy them.

BUT... also, you don't have to sell the figs, of course. Even if you put a hiatus on collecting them, they may come in handy later, or you can use them as proxies as you build your other army.

I wouldn't collect simultaneously though. That invites some serious money crunch, there. Plus, it's better to focus on building your tactics for one army at a time.

One nice thing about collecting Sisters-heavy Witch Hunters, is the Battle Sisters figs are meant to be used for ALL Adepta Sororitas units except Seraphim (and you could even convert ordinary units into Seraphs pretty easily). And therefore, if suddenly you decide you don't need that Dominion Squad, you just repaint them and add them to your troops.

Thanks, DeathQuaker. That's another load off my mind :smallsmile: my friends are saying to keep my Orks, and that's probably what I'm going to do now. Time to start a WAAAAAAAARGH! :smallbiggrin:

Although don't take this as a full out decision. From what you've said, it may be wise just to stick 'em on Ebay. This way I'll gain some cash towards my new army as well as get some space in my carrying case :smallsmile:

Or maybe I should just play D&D more, considering our collective of D&D'ers have now got the Planar Book....

Argh! "Decisions, decisions, they are yours to make, so says the new voice in my head!" to quote Trip from Neverwinter Nights- Kingmaker. I love that guy- slobbery little rodent that he is.

A little off-topic there :smallredface:

Crazy Owl
2006-12-22, 11:37 AM
I just got next months White Dwarf and it says in the next update of the Dark Angels codex it will say what their terrible secret is. Ive wanted to know that for so long!

Dragor
2006-12-22, 02:18 PM
I just got next months White Dwarf and it says in the next update of the Dark Angels codex it will say what their terrible secret is. Ive wanted to know that for so long!

On of my friends collects Dark Angels, so it should be pretty cool telling him if he doesn't know/doesn't find out before I do.

Blackmailing tool? Yes sir! :smallbiggrin:

heretic
2006-12-23, 06:52 PM
if you like minimalist tactics, go Orks,

Objection! Nids have minimalist tactics too. I would argue that Orks require more tactics to play than nids.

sith_243
2006-12-23, 07:40 PM
Honestly, I like the Necrons, if you Die you can just revive, and the Necron Lord is very good. Not sure if this was said, (i'm too lazy to read all of page 2

Crazy Owl
2006-12-23, 08:09 PM
Objection! Nids have minimalist tactics too. I would argue that Orks require more tactics to play than Nids.

Although you can play Nids with little tactics they still require more than Orks. For a start you need keep most things in Synapse. Plus one the best things for Nids, scare tactics. Nothing is more fun when playing Nids to look at your opponents face when he realizes those last couple of a hundred points was three Lictors appearing in the bushes behind his Devastator squad. My favorite was when I was playing with someone who placed two fire warriors squads in a forest.

ilovefire
2006-12-24, 12:21 AM
I can honestly say that the Imperial Guard is a very, very fun army to play, if... a little annoying because of all the figures you've got to buy/collect just to play a 750 point army, much less in the higher ranges: my 750 point has 44 infantry models, plus 1 hellhound. I would have more infantry, except I decided one squad of Stormtroopers for troops (from the Grenadiers doctrine) would be more cost-effective than two of guardsman and a command squad w/ a junior officer.

McDeath
2006-12-24, 02:39 AM
The Dark Angel's secret? Is this the "Some of us fell to Chaos, and we've been hunting them down ever since" secret, or a new one?

Crazy Owl
2006-12-24, 05:18 AM
They have that and then a worse one don't they?

Dragor
2006-12-24, 07:00 AM
The Dark Angel's secret? Is this the "Some of us fell to Chaos, and we've been hunting them down ever since" secret, or a new one?

That would probably be a brilliant anticlimatic article.

"Oh, sorry, just to tell you about the Dark Angels secret everone already knows about....."

I'm pretty sure it's a different secret. I think.... I would be pretty annoyed if they would 'reveal' a secret that everyone new about already.

:smallsmile:

heretic
2006-12-24, 02:24 PM
I can honestly say that the Imperial Guard is a very, very fun army to play, if... a little annoying because of all the figures you've got to buy/collect just to play a 750 point army, much less in the higher ranges: my 750 point has 44 infantry models, plus 1 hellhound. I would have more infantry, except I decided one squad of Stormtroopers for troops (from the Grenadiers doctrine) would be more cost-effective than two of guardsman and a command squad w/ a junior officer.

I'm hoping to score a Hellhound tomorrow myself.

IG players have to learn to cope with losses. I love it when my opponent thinks he's shredding my army...and then I deep strike the other half all over him. If you can get past losing as much as three squads a turn, you're fine.

ilovefire
2006-12-24, 02:41 PM
I can get past losing half my army in one turn. Yes, it hurts in 750 point games when I dont' have as much arty as I'd like, but I can generally pull through and at least kill half of the other dude. Unless they are playing 'nids or da orks. I'm just not good against 'nids or orcs... 'nids because I use cameleoline on my troops so I instinctively go for cover... and well, not a good idea against 'nids.

Penguinizer
2006-12-25, 03:19 PM
Nids do look pretty cute-ish. But more cool.

Almost got my entire battleforce glued together. Just need to add the heads and second arms to the last 4 genestealers. then one more box of gaunts and time to paint.

Dragor
2006-12-25, 04:39 PM
I think I'm the only person round here who'd even consider playing basic Space Marines from what I've picked up posting in some of the other 40K threads. And even then that's because I think I've still got my models somewhere from back when it was a choice of Chaos, Eldar, Orks or Space Marines and, basically, I'm cheap and have no money.

Anyway, go with what you think look like fun, that's the main thing, the fun. Philosphy comes in a poor second to fun. Go with what lloks like the one you'll enjoy playing the most. If tearing Imperial lackeys to shreds with your close range bioneered Xenomorphs floats your boat then go for 'Nids, if laying down a torrent of fire from affar is your thing then go Tau. If you like a bit of both (like I do), go Marines, if you like minimalist tactics, go Orks, If you like bizarre powers and Space Marines in 1 mix, go Chaos, if you like really big armies, go Imperial guard, for troops that never die, go Necron and for speed and elegance, go Eldar,

Orks do have tactics, now I think about it. It's just all about how you rush, unlike camping in the deployment zone... and making sure you get some good shots at the heavy support (Dreadnoughts are a bit annoying in situations when you have no Rokkits.)

Saithis Bladewing
2006-12-26, 04:13 PM
The orks require tons of tactics, which is probably why they lose so often. The only races I can think of who require more tactics are Eldar (who require more of timing than tactics), the Dark Eldar and Witch/Daemon Hunters. They have very distinct weaknesses and so require very good timing and tactical ability in order to achieve any modicum of success. You can do it, it just requres sooooo much more work than the other races.

DeathQuaker
2006-12-26, 11:18 PM
That would probably be a brilliant anticlimatic article.

"Oh, sorry, just to tell you about the Dark Angels secret everone already knows about....."

I'm pretty sure it's a different secret. I think.... I would be pretty annoyed if they would 'reveal' a secret that everyone new about already.

:smallsmile:

Actually, I think the Dark Angels secret was revealed in Black Library fiction (I read one of the books to a blind friend of mine, and a lot of "secret" stuff gets revealed). I imagine that they're not introducing a "new" secret, just bringing the fluff from the fiction into the codices so everyone can know.

elwood j blues
2006-12-28, 05:04 AM
hmm... im gonna say here that to many people play spacemarines. and i dont mind if theyre dreative about it, ive got a friend who plays this maxed out 16 model army with 1000pts in them, and its always great fun to play him. but when i look elswhere, all i see are scouts, landraiders, chaplins on bikes.... it just gets boring.
tau require less tactics than people think. in the codex they have two listed tactics which are basically the same. move around the sides while sending in soething expendable into the middle to lure the opponent, or not even move around the sides. brilliant firepower behind them though.
nid... ahh the nid monstrous creature cheet. this is an army you want to play: two squads of 3 ripper bases, 3 carnifexes with sything talons/rending claws, 3 carnifexes completely maxed out, 1 hive tyrant. 7 monstrous creatures, under 1000 points, lotsa crushy.
orks. yeah, they do require alot of tactics surprisingly. you need to find out everything about them to use them effectively. its not mob p 4 squads of sluggga boyz and hope they reach the enemies side of the bored. you need some vehicles, you need to see wherre you get shot least, and ya need a squiggoth if ya hope ta crush em in da big fights.
ahem.. moving on... eldar. play them if you wnat, but i beg of you, dont cheat. there was one guy at my local gw that played two seer councils in a 1000 point army, and everyone in it had mindwar... he claimed it would work against anyone in range, even if someone else used minwar on something else in that same seer council, amd when we had a look at the codex a few hours later, we discovered that it was comepletely illegal. besides that eldar are a very powerful race.
imperial guard. get artillary, and carapace armour. nuff said.
dark eldar. ahh dark eldar. ive been collecting them for what.... two years now? i can muster up a good 4000 point strong force, and i only just decided what tactics they use. they are great fun to play but have rediculous tactics sometimes. i mean youde think that the uber half naked wyches with combat drugs would manage to get to the enemy in a transport, but no, it turns out that warriors are much better at it. and talos's are always worth taking. but im atracted to the dark eldar philosyphy. they are the most underlooked race ever, who's codex is still 2nd ed, and no one knows much about them. i ahd a niid player charge his warriors into a squad of my wyches, and he didnt know what they do. he lost that squad in that round, and moved his other squads away. theyre secretes, ive spent ages on. a race of the eldar who live entriely in the warp, and who survived the arrival of the slanesh god of chaos, who dont want to, but actually NEED to devour souls to live. they dont fight for evil, they fight for survival, only the most powerful realise this though, everyone else is too young. they fight to appease the wrath of this bloodthirsty god so the god doesnt kill them, and im betting thats the slaesh god, and it was a deal struck so they wouldnt die.
theyre great fun to play though cus its either win incredibly fast with little casualties. (i beat a marine player in four turns, it took two to wipe out his last squad cus everything else was on the otehrside taking out his termies.) or you loose increadibly slowly and painfully. (try a 9 turn long battle against an 1000 point marine army with 3 verenable dreadnoghts when your entirely combat based)

Penguinizer
2006-12-31, 07:56 PM
should probably paint my army and figure out the point cost.

Shadow of the Sun
2006-12-31, 08:18 PM
I play probably the least played army in the entire game (excluding the sisters of battle, because NO-ONE plays those): The Demonhunters! I love the Demonhunters, they are very very powerful, if expensive, and have a lot of flavor.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-01, 03:28 PM
I play probably the least played army in the entire game (excluding the sisters of battle, because NO-ONE plays those):

Except me.

And the other Sisters/WH players I've met. True, we are in a minority. But since I've mentioned it before I thought I'd point it out.



The Demonhunters! I love the Demonhunters, they are very very powerful, if expensive, and have a lot of flavor.

Daemonhunters are neat, though my friend who plays them notes they are fun to build for flavor but not particularly effective for, say, a tournament army. Good to ally w/ other Imperial armies though.

I painted said friend's daemonhunters and if you like to paint they can be a lot of fun--a nice amount of detail but not overwhelmingly so, and it's fun to try different color schemes with them.

Kython
2007-01-02, 12:55 AM
personally I find the Daemonhunters (particluarly the Grey Knights) to be almost overwhelmingly awesome when played effectively. I can probably sum this up in a simple, yet elegant three-point list of why the Ordo Malleus (ie Daemonhunters) are kick-ass:


1). the Grey Knights. I personally own almost every codex in the game (except for the dark eldar codex) and of all the troops in the game, the Grey Knights have to be the most powerful fighting force in the game! to elaborate: they're fearless, any squad (except for normal grey knight squads or purgation squads) may deep strike, have 'true grit' when armed with storm bolters (+1 attack in close combat), can dispel any enemy psychic power used against them (provided they succeed their leadership roll against said psyker's roll), ranged combatants have to roll to be able to see the Grey Knights, daemons treat charges toward them as moving on difficult ground, and lastly there's their Nemisis Force Weapons (+2 str plus certain addidtional properties).


2). integration. even if you find that the deamonhunters aren't enough, you can integrate them into an imperial guard, space marine, or witchhunter army.


3). Vindicare assassin. If there's ONE 40k model that's been more useful to me in the game than any of the Grey Knights (or any others for that matter), it's the Vindicare assassin. Sure the witchhunters also have access to the vindicare, but I find that the culexus assassin suits them better for use against psykers. anyways, my reasons they're kick-ass: the exitus rifle (basically a sniper rifle with AP2 plus it has three special rounds... more on those later) and exitus pistol (range:12", str5, AP2) wreak havoc on infantry coming for him despite their armor, its spy mask reduces cover saves on his targets by 1 and allow him to see much further than others in Night Fighting, his stealth suit makes them as hard to see as the Grey Knights, his marksmanship allows lets YOU decide what enemy model gets hit and not the opponent, and lastly: the Vindicare Assassin using a Turbo-Penetrator round is THE most likely thing to destroy a Necron Monolith (to me that says a lot cause those things are close to impossible to take down without ordanance weapons... yes I did calculate it out for every single model... except the dark eldar... I have no life...) with a 37.2% chance of destroying that mother with his one round.


In short: the Ordo Malleus fuggin' RULES!!!

Saithis Bladewing
2007-01-02, 02:02 AM
*snip* the Vindicare Assassin using a Turbo-Penetrator round is THE most likely thing to destroy a Necron Monolith *snip* with a 37.2% chance of destroying that mother with his one round. *snip*

That's not bad considering a Broadside Battlesuit tweaked with a targeting array has a 22.2% chance of destruction.

I still think I'd rather take a Broadside to a Monolith-killing match, though. Much longer range and its more reliable. If the Turbo-Penetrator fails, you can't take that kind of shot again and have to hope for one of those rare sniper rifle glancing hit destruction shots whose odds are probably in the 1:500ish area. The Broadside can keep pumping out those S10 AP1 railgun slugs every round. Put three in a squad and your chance of destroying the monolith in one round increases dramatically.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-02, 07:49 AM
personally I find the Daemonhunters (particluarly the Grey Knights) to be almost overwhelmingly awesome when played effectively. I can probably sum this up in a simple, yet elegant three-point list of why the Ordo Malleus (ie Daemonhunters) are kick-ass:

And I'll list my two as to why I don't think they are necessarily the best army to play on their own for tourney lists:



1). the Grey Knights. I personally own almost every codex in the game (except for the dark eldar codex) and of all the troops in the game, the Grey Knights have to be the most powerful fighting force in the game!

(snip)

The Grey Knights do indeed kick ass. My comparatively "weak" Sisters of Battle have still beat them down multiple times with strength in numbers and flexible tactics. Yes, I lost a lot of my own along the way, but I still won (and playing Sisters you expect to have several martyrs by the end of the game :smallwink: ). The thing about Grey Knights is they cost a lot, especially if you're bringing in Terminators and Dreadnoughts and the like (and why wouldn't you?). You can do some awesome stuff with them, but with bad die rolling or a savvy, flexible opponent, they will lose and more easily than you might expect.

Also, again because they become a relatively small fighting force, they're only good for certain mission scenarios. At a tourney you're not sure what you may get--Grey Knights can handle an Annihilate, but they're not as good at, say, Holding Quarters, where larger armies have an advantage. They've got good firepower but lack flexibility.

They're awesome in friendly games, and can definitely hold their own, if not take everyone else to town.


3). Vindicare assassin. If there's ONE 40k model that's been more useful to me in the game than any of the Grey Knights (or any others for that matter), it's the Vindicare assassin.

Witch Hunters can have those too. And I've personally found they're not worth the many points you spend on them. You can buy whole squads or armored vehicles for a single assassin.

This is not to say I think Daemonhunters are bad. They're awesome. They kick butt and they look gorgeous doing it. Just clarifying why I thought on their own they're not a good army for tourneys. I'm sure someone can prove me wrong, but just my 2 cents.

Bryn
2007-01-02, 08:14 AM
I think Daemonhunters are great too, I'm including an Inquisitor in my next IG army (although he's strictly speaking Ordo Xenos), but to add to the Grey Knights thing, as well as being powerful, Grey Knights dies as easily to most things (guns, etc.) as a normal Space Marine - yet for each one who dies you lose 10 more points than if you had SMs.

On the other hand, they're nice models, and probably the most elite (that doesn't necessarily mean the best) basic troops in the game. However, I can have 4.1666... Guardsmen for every Grey Knight you have...

Penguinizer
2007-01-04, 08:31 AM
Meh, just read the Nid codex more clearly and I apparently need to have each brood of termas armed identically :(

6 are armed with (something that I forgot atm), 2 with Devourers (2 s3 or 4 attacks with re roll to wound) and 8 with spine fists. No extensive bio morphing except on the Fex, and toxin sacs for all the melee troops.

Kython
2007-01-05, 01:01 PM
The thing about Grey Knights is they cost a lot, especially if you're bringing in Terminators and Dreadnoughts and the like (and why wouldn't you?).


I couldn't agree more, and though they are almost as easy to kill as any other space marine, I find the cost worth it in the sense that, if my opponent can't fire at them, they can't be killed yet! hence the vindicare: also insanely difficult for the enemy to see, much less kill. this may stunt the size of my army overall, but I make up for it with superior abilities/equipment/tactics... and the fact that I'm too lazy to build/paint so many models has nothing to do with it at all...

Penguinizer
2007-01-05, 01:07 PM
the vindicare can have fun killing my gaunts, they will be all back the next turn due to "Without Numbers"

Were-Sandwich
2007-01-05, 01:44 PM
If you're just starting out, here's some advice: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, USE THE FREAKIN' SCENARIOS!!!!

At the gaming club I go to, all the little 10yr old GW addicts with with one-colour painted armies play games with objectives of: Lets see who can wipe the other out first. And so does everyone else. And thats when all balance go out the window. In my experience, in this situation, Tau and 'nids pwn. I have a small SM army, and whenever I play in a proper scenario, I have about a 50% win rate. When playing in a wipeout fest, my win rate goes way down against the afforementioned 'nids and Tau.

And army lists. don't forget those. The afforementioned kids just plonk all there armies down and have one of the afforementioned wipeout fests. It makes me cringe.

And thats why I don't play 40K much anymore. My options are either the afforementioned kids, or GW stores and their entourage, and the less said about them, the better.

EDIT: oh, and the rule shave gaping logic flaws in them. "Im armed with a very powerful rapid fire assault cannon. Im being charge by a large group of genestealers who are going to kill me in a very slow and painful way. I could shoot at them as they charge, but I'm not going to because the game doesn't include charge reactions" seriously, whats up with that. I asked a GW employee, and he just went all hyper and spouted of some BS about 'relative time frames' or somesuch. You couldn't make me work there for all the tea in china (and people who know me will tell you just how much I like tea)

Bryn
2007-01-05, 06:08 PM
In Forge World's rules for fighting in bases and complexes, there were rules for standing and shooting instead of fighting in close combat when being charged. Sadly, said rules are no longer on the internet, instead being in Imperial Armour IV: the Anphelion Project.

In any case, I guess they just wanted to keep the game simple.

Wehrkind
2007-01-09, 05:24 AM
Holy crap, I am back! Here I thought I was to be gone from the forums forever, and it just took me going back to working nights to be given my password... how fortuitous.

Anyway, about those Sisters of Battle. I am starting to play, and starting a SoB army. Since I am apparently the only person in PA who plays them, any advice on tactics, oh bearer of the Bonky Stick?

DeathQuaker
2007-01-09, 07:55 AM
Anyway, about those Sisters of Battle. I am starting to play, and starting a SoB army. Since I am apparently the only person in PA who plays them, any advice on tactics, oh bearer of the Bonky Stick?

I posted a bunch of stuff in the "Tactics" forum. Some general thoughts... which, mind you, I don't consider myself an "expert" myself. But this is what I find works...

If you're going with Adepta Sororitas, milk the faith points. Upgrade your troop leaders to Veteran whenever possible and/or field already faithful units like Celestians and Seraphim. You want to start a with a decent amount of faith. Learning when is the best time to use AOFs I've learned largely through experience--and sometimes it's better to let a squad die (and therefore regain a faith point) to help another, better squad survive.

Seraphim ROCK and are worth every point. I find them better as a squad of 10 than a squad of 5 (though a squad of 5 will have a better chance of succeeding EDIT: in certain AOFS) -- with jump packs you can Deep Strike them, they're mobile, and though close range, awesome with shooting since their weapons count as twin-linked. While not "uber" in close combat, they get lots of attacks, and their "Hit and Run" ability makes them invaluable -- if you get assaulted by the enemy and survive combat, you can choose to withdraw. You can then either choose to retreat to a safer position--OR then hop back forward, shoot them once with your pistols to whittle them down, and then re-assault during your assault phase.

Though APCs aren't great for marines, they're decent for SOBs because they all have mid-to close range weapons, and you need to move them up into position to give them a good firing point.

Some basic thoughts. Any further specific questions, let me know.

Penguinizer
2007-01-09, 09:58 AM
I think they have rules for "Overwatch mode" in the Games Workshop site. It includes rules for shooting at moving foes in their turn. Great for kill teams.



Overwatch. One of the other fun features of the old Space Hulk was the ability of Terminators to go into "overwatch" mode. Overwatch allows Terminators to shoot during the Genestealer Movement Phase, in effect interrupting the Tyranid player's turn. The Space Marine player must declare if a Terminator is entering overwatch at the beginning of its Movement phase, which means that it cannot shoot or launch an assault for the rest of that turn, and it can move only 3" that turn. Now, if a Genestealer moves at all within the range and line-of-sight of the overwatch Terminator during the subsequent Tyranid turn, the Terminator may shoot at that Genestealer. If you like, place an overwatch marker next to the Terminator model(s) to remember that you can shoot during the Tyranid turn.
To figure how many shots the Terminator gets, move the Genestealer model as normal. Measure the total distance the Genestealer moved within the range and line-of-sight of the Terminator - the Terminator gets one actual shot per 1" of this visible movement. For example, if a Genestealer is 28" away from an overwatch Terminator and moves 6" closer down an open corridor, the Terminator gets two shots at the Genestealer (28" - 6" = 22" away, 2" of that movement were within 24" range). For another example, if a Genestealer moves 6" to cross a 2"-wide corridor that's 10" away from the Terminator, the Terminator gets two shots since it could only see 2" of the 6" movement.
Ignore the Assault 2 specification of the storm bolter while in overwatch - it gets as many single shots as the number of inches of visible movement within its 24" range. Since the Terminator is sweeping the area with fire, it gets a -1 BS penalty. A Terminator is no longer in overwatch when it moves again or participates in an assault. A Terminator cannot fire through other Terminators while on overwatch. A Terminator with a heavy flamer can go on overwatch, but it can only fire once regardless of the visible movement distance.
Since a Terminator on overwatch is cranking out so much fire, even the well-cared-for storm bolter can overheat and jam. Any to-hit roll of a 1 means the weapon has jammed and the Terminator breaks overwatch and spends the rest of the subsequent Space Marine turn clearing the jam - it may move and assault, but that Terminator cannot fire that turn. Roll each overwatch shot separately so you know when the jam occurs.
Thats the rules for overwatch mode directly from the GW site.

Selrahc
2007-01-09, 12:31 PM
Thats for Space Hulk though, which is a different game.(Albeit, very similar)

Penguinizer
2007-01-09, 12:33 PM
True, it could be modified slightly though. But I simply posted it as a suggestion for what might work.

Wehrkind
2007-01-09, 08:23 PM
Thanks DeathQuaker, I posted in that thread.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-09, 09:42 PM
Cool. BTW, I noticed I left an important qualifier off in one of my sentences up there... Seraph squads of 5 are good for succeeding in certain Tests of Faith, not succeeding in general....

ilovefire
2007-01-10, 09:36 PM
It seems to me, that IG armies, specifically infantry-based IG armies (like mine) are rather rare. Of course, my infantry tend to be, ah... 'pimped out'. Cameleoline, Light Infantry, Grenadiers, Ogryns, and i'm still trying to figure out what to spend my fifth doctrine point on. Was thinking maybe Independant Commissars, or perhaps Special Weapons Squads...

I also note that having all guard infantry squads get a +1 bonus to all cover saves, being able to infiltrate, have a sniper rifle, and rolling an additional dice to determine how far you go through difficult terrian is worth the 20 extra points/squad.

heretic
2007-01-11, 07:23 PM
I was thinking of adding some Witchhunters to my IG. However, I also want to add some Kroot. Am I allowed to take both? The Kroot are not allowed to be added to a "Sisters of Battle" army, but what about an IG army with allied Sisters? What about IG with allied non-Sister Witchhunters, like flagellants?

I googled this a little bit, but couldn't find anything decisive.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-11, 09:11 PM
I was thinking of adding some Witchhunters to my IG. However, I also want to add some Kroot. Am I allowed to take both? The Kroot are not allowed to be added to a "Sisters of Battle" army, but what about an IG army with allied Sisters? What about IG with allied non-Sister Witchhunters, like flagellants?

I'm surprised IG would be able to take Kroot at all. Is that really possible?

The only place that will tell you is your codex. I don't think you can have two separate allies, but again, some codexes differ from others.

I think you can ally with the Inquisition, yes, so you could have Arco-Flagellants, theoretically--but again, check the limitations as listed in your codex.

ilovefire
2007-01-11, 09:29 PM
I'm fairly sure that Kroot can ally with any army, since they are mercenaries. yes, the more orthodox of the Emperor's Servents would look down on consorting with the Xeno in such a way, but survival is important, and hey. Kroot are good at what the IG aren't good at: melee.

Crazy Owl
2007-01-12, 02:19 AM
I don't think Kroot are allowed to ally with Witch Hunters so it would be one or the other I think.

Wehrkind
2007-01-12, 06:21 AM
Yea, Witch Hunters are very specifically Imperial Guard OR Space Marines (and Sisters of Battle are incompatible with Space Marines, though there are pictures in the book with SoB & SM together.)

Crazy Owl
2007-01-12, 11:25 AM
Thats a space marine army with witch hunter allies which happen to be Sisters of battle which is perfectly legal.

heretic
2007-01-12, 06:04 PM
The Kroot army list names "Sisters of Battle" armies as prohibited, but if I have a base IG army, does it still apply? Also, are they interpreting all Witchhunters as Sisters or just the actual Sisters?

My instinct tells me that I can only take one or another, but I would really like both.

EDIT: Just Emailed GW. I'll post their reply.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-12, 06:57 PM
The Kroot army list names "Sisters of Battle" armies as prohibited, but if I have a base IG army, does it still apply? Also, are they interpreting all Witchhunters as Sisters or just the actual Sisters?

I know you're waiting for GW's reply, but while we're waiting:

My Witch Hunters codex makes the distinction between "Adepta Sororitas" and "Inquisitorial Forces." The two can combine all sorts of ways to become Witch Hunters armies but represent separate entities that sometimes work together.

If your codex says, specifically, Adepta Sororitas cannot join your army, that means anything labeled "Adepta Sororitas" (i.e. most Sisters of Battle units) within the Witch Hunters list are not allowed, even if it says it otherwise allows "Witch Hunters." You can take Inquisitors, Assassins, Flagellants, etc. Even Sisters Repentia, because they're not technically Sororitas (they're ex-Sororitas).

If your codex says you cannot ally with "Sisters of Battle" my guess is that you have an old codex. :smalltongue: (Sisters used to be their own army, before the Witch Hunters codex came out.) I'd check chapter approved in that case, or a new codex if one is available.

Regarding Space Marines, the rules are goofy. According to my WH codex, Marines can take any Witch Hunters, incl. Sororitas, as allies (page 25). BUT... Witch Hunters that have Sororitas in them can't take Allied Space Marines (page 26). (I.e., a primarily marine army can have Sisters join them, but a primarily WH w/ Sisters can't have Marines join them). The idea is that Inquisitors call on the aid of Space Marines if they can't get support from the Sisters, who are their usual initial go-to.

Adepta Sororitas can ally with Guard. And I have a feeling you can't have Sisters, Guard, and Kroot in the same army.

Bryn
2007-01-13, 01:40 PM
Lacking the relevant rules and codices, I cannot comment on rules-wise, but fluff-wise, even if the Imperial Guard were winning to use Kroot mercenaries (which some of the less fanatical regiments could very well do), the Sisters of Battle and Inquisition would have none of it... and likely execute them all for heresy in even considering consorting with Xenos.

I would have thought so, anyway.

Selrahc
2007-01-13, 01:54 PM
I could see the Inquisition doing it too. After all, Inquisitor the game gives rules for alien Mercenaries.

Definitely not the Sororitas though.

heretic
2007-01-13, 02:12 PM
Well, they don't answer rules questions in Emails, so I'm just going to ask around the hobby shop today.

DeathQuaker-The Kroot army list (which I was quoting) is old, but they approved it for GT 2007, so it's quite legal. You can read it here (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/tau/gaming/kroot_armylist/assets/krootmerc_list.pdf).

ilovefire
2007-01-13, 04:12 PM
YOu know, I've been pondering maybe, instead of using a normal IG army, going for an Armoured Company. I admit to being a treadhead, after all, and i've only got two squads of guardsman and 1 command squad right now... thoughts on pure-tank IG armies?

Selrahc
2007-01-13, 04:57 PM
http://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/ac-armylist/assets/ac-armylist.pdf

Pure tank armies will generally crush most armies that haven't been specifically designed to combat them.

I say that as someone whos been ground into dust beneath the tanks of an armoured company my fair share of times. When I was facing them, I only had my Khorne Berserker army. My entire tank busting capacity was one demon prince, and two powerfists. All of who died before even moving, in a hail of Ordnance fire.

Cover hurts you. Heavy anti tank armies screw you over. Heavy tank armies of the opponent screw you over, because they also get to pick the best troops out of their list at supporting tanks. Necrons are a fun army to face with this list however, since they get a little anti tank power built in.

Coincidentally, the Exterminator Tank ace, with ace gunners and a pintle mounted heavy stubber is the best anti infantry vehicle in the game. Killing a squad of ten every turn is fun:smallsmile:

ilovefire
2007-01-13, 05:56 PM
Yeah, i've got the AC army list... frankly, I really like it. Unfortunately, i'm more of a Sentinel's fan than any other IG vehicle, but there are no rules for a Sentinel-only IG army. Even then, it'd probably not be very effective, but probably damn fun to play!

heretic
2007-01-13, 06:41 PM
Like Selrahc said, only make exterminators or non-ordnance tanks Aces. As a proud owner of two Leman Russes, I can say that while sponsons are impressive, you never fire them anyway, so increasing their BS is worthless.

Bryn
2007-01-14, 07:47 AM
They look fun, and you get access to a load of tanks that normal IG don't get. There's nothing like having tanks as a Troops choice! Chances are they'd be pretty expensive though, especially since you'd need to either convert some of the more unusual tanks or get them from Forge World.

heretic
2007-01-14, 09:36 PM
Alright, here's the scoop: If you add Witchhunters as allies to IG, the only other allies you can have are Daemonhunters, unless the other allies are in a separate detachment. You may take Kroot as a second detachment in 2000+ point games. So my choices are one or the other unless I'm playing 2000 pointers, which are a bit hefty at my hobby shop. (we usually go 1850 or 2000 a side 2 v 2)

This brings about another interesting question: If I wanted to add Daemonhosts as allies and Flagellants as allies, do I need one or two inquisitors? Both units specify that they require an inquisitor to be fielded, but Daemonhosts are Daemonhunters and Flagellants are Witchhunters. Do I need an Ordo Malleus and an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor or just any old inquisitor?

Either way, I'm using up all of my elite choices, so this is mostly hypothetical. But, if I need two inquisitors, then it takes an HQ as well. :smallwink:

Wehrkind
2007-01-14, 11:06 PM
Inquisitors can be either elites or hq choices for Witch Hunters, just depends on the size of the retinue you want to field mostly. Arco Flagellants need a priest though, not an inquisitor, so that opens things up a lot for you. 45 points and you can attach them to various units for no army slot cost. Granted, you need the specific units they can be attached to like Sisters of Battle or Inquisitorial Storm Troopers. They can not be attached to Inquisitor Retinues, it is worth noting.

heretic
2007-01-15, 09:56 PM
Ahah!

Thank you. I guess I misread it. That does open up a lot of choices...

Hoggmaster
2007-01-17, 10:48 AM
With my armored co i usually field an HQ inquistor and Elite Daemonhosts and a Troop IQ stormtroopers in a Chimera (to keep the mounted theme)