How well does ToB mesh with Rokugan?

[Larkas]

I've been toying with the idea of an OA campaign, and I'd like to know how much I'd have to adapt the Rokugan campaign setting to fit in ToB, (preferably with the fluff intact, but that can be worked around). Could anyone that have experience with the setting give me some pointers?

[Lightlawbliss]

Never actually played any chars from/in that campain but I have some potential characters I have made for future use that at least look good on paper, includeing atleast one using swordage in it.

[DeltaEmil]

The ToB-mechanics are fluff-neutral, and should be easily integrated in any setting that used D&D 3.x-rules. The legacy weapons might be more difficult to integrate, since many of them are in the style of western weapons, but then again, Legacy weapons and their rules suck in practically all cases, so they can be easily ignored.

There should be no problems at all to include the maneuver and stance mechanics, classes and prestige classes of Tome of Battle into the Rokugan setting.

A little bit of Rokugan-fluff coated upon the warblade and the swordsage, and everything ought to be fine. Even the crusader can work as another kind of samurai, or as a sohei monastery warrior.

[Jeff the Green]

Warblades, assuming you don't change the obnoxious fluff, are basically ronin. If you apply the more common sense view that they're basically just Fighters that don't suck they just become the new samurai.

Swordsages are straight up ninjas.

Crusaders are a bit trickier, since there aren't really the same kind of deities in Rokugan, but they could with minor adjustments be sohei.

[Darth Stabber]

If I were dividing it up, it wouldn't be just samurai are warblades. Looking at L5R's school system, dividing the schools into one of the three classes makes sense.

Shiba bushi - easily crusader, they are focused on protecting shugenja, and crusaders are good at holding the line

Hida bush - also crusader, their style is focused on withstanding the enemies onslaught and striking back harder. Though giving them special access to setting sun would be thematically appropriate at the hida wrestler is a common variation. Heavy focus on stone dragon. Some might be warblades, lets face it IHS is a very Crab thing to do.

Hiruma Scout - swordsage, they are scouts, they focus on stealth and quickly putting down lesser threats. Likely focused on shadow hand and setting sun.

Kakita bushi - warblade. Probably heavily focused on diamond mind. They are dualists foremost, and they are highly focused and determined, while also being capable frontliners.

Bayushi Bushi - also warblade. Like the kakita they are excellent dualists, but are more focused on being well rounded warriors with several interesting tricks up their sleeves.

Akodo Bushi - warblade. They are fairly close to the standard warblade, glory being a very important feature. Focused on Iron heart.

Moto Bushi - more warblade. They, like the lion, tend to be glory hounds, but they are commonly mounted. Focused on ironheart.

Yoritomo bushi - swordsage. They are highly mobile combatants, often using peasant weapons.

Mirumoto bushi - warblade, probably focused on tiger claw due to their focus on dual wielding, but without the wildness associated with that discipline. Also some side focus on diamond mind.

[Lightlawbliss]

If I were dividing it up, it wouldn't be just samurai are warblades. Looking at L5R's school system, dividing the schools into one of the three classes makes sense.

Shiba bushi - easily crusader, they are focused on protecting shugenja, and crusaders are good at holding the line

Hida bush - also crusader, their style is focused on withstanding the enemies onslaught and striking back harder. Though giving them special access to setting sun would be thematically appropriate at the hida wrestler is a common variation. Heavy focus on stone dragon. Some might be warblades, lets face it IHS is a very Crab thing to do.

Hiruma Scout - swordsage, they are scouts, they focus on stealth and quickly putting down lesser threats. Likely focused on shadow hand and setting sun.

Kakita bushi - warblade. Probably heavily focused on diamond mind. They are dualists foremost, and they are highly focused and determined, while also being capable frontliners.

Bayushi Bushi - also warblade. Like the kakita they are excellent dualists, but are more focused on being well rounded warriors with several interesting tricks up their sleeves.

Akodo Bushi - warblade. They are fairly close to the standard warblade, glory being a very important feature. Focused on Iron heart.

Moto Bushi - more warblade. They, like the lion, tend to be glory hounds, but they are commonly mounted. Focused on ironheart.

Yoritomo bushi - swordsage. They are highly mobile combatants, often using peasant weapons.

Mirumoto bushi - warblade, probably focused on tiger claw due to their focus on dual wielding, but without the wildness associated with that discipline. Also some side focus on diamond mind.

Obviusly, some of these could be more then one. some could be mixes of the 3 we have. When it really comes down to it, what matters is that the TOB classes fit in...In some ways better then they fit in with the traditional setting.

[Darth Stabber]

Obviusly, some of these could be more then one. some could be mixes of the 3 we have. When it really comes down to it, what matters is that the TOB classes fit in...In some ways better then they fit in with the traditional setting.

True enough. Though I must say that ruby knight vindicator would be an awesome fill in for kuni witchhunters.

[Biotroll]

As others said, it goes quite well. I'm DMing OA campaign right now and have a swordsage in party. He's scorpion elite ninja/warrior and it's going well. Warblades and crusaders are fine too, most of them ronins and few of them samurai. I'm very lenient to my players and talk about what they would like and so on, so if you are DM, just adjust it as you see fit. If you are player, ask your DM what he thinks. Only thing I ignored so far from ToB are legacy weapons.

[Larkas]

Thank you very much for the input, guys! Just to get this out of the way: don't worry, I don't confuse class and character (i.e.: a "samurai" character might be a samurai just as easily as a fighter, a ranger, a rogue or a warblade). Now, a few questions:

- I don't want to make the samurai class obsolete. Do you think that by adding ToB classes to the game I would make the OA samurai comparatively useless? Or is its main class feature (i.e.: free and flexible magic weapons) still attractive?

- Regardless of the answer to the above question, I'm considering making Martial Study a bonus feat choice for all the clans' samurai. I would make it unlimited for that purpose (i.e.: you may take Martial Study as a feat whenever you want to spend a samurai bonus feat on it; otherwise the original limitation stays in place. A 4th level human samurai could have 5 martial study feats: 1 from being a human, 2 from being level 4 and 2 from being a 4th level samurai). I'm considering on adding a limitation to schools for feats bought with bonus samurai feats (i.e.: Iron Heart and Stone Dragon for Crab samurai). What do you think of this idea?

- I must say that Weapons of Legacy, flavor-wise, would fit perfectly in Rokugan. I'm not familiar with it crunch-wise, however. Why do you think it's bad?

- Any other adaptation concerns I should have?

[Deophaun]

- I don't want to make the samurai class obsolete. Do you think that by adding ToB classes to the game I would make the OA samurai comparatively useless? Or is its main class feature (i.e.: free and flexible magic weapons) still attractive?
I'm curious as to why, as it seems the fighter class already obsoleted the samurai.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm curious as to why, as it seems the fighter class already obsoleted the samurai.

The OA Samurai doesn't suck, it's the CW Samurai that sucks. And I would say that an ACFed fighter obsoletes the OA Samurai.

[Deophaun]

The OA Samurai doesn't suck, it's the CW Samurai that sucks. And I would say that an ACFed fighter obsoletes the OA Samurai.
Except the OA samurai does.

The benefits of the OA samurai over the fighter are as follows
-Good Will save
-Free MW weapon at level 1
-Magic weapons independent of campaign (works in low-magic settings) provided you like the bastard sword and the short sword
-2 extra skill points per level

The downsides to the OA samurai over the fighter are as follows
-Extremely curtailed bonus feat choices
-Loss of 1st level bonus feat
-Must be lawful (no barbarian dip for pounce without loss of certain class features)
-Code that might force you to commit suicide (either tactically or ritually)
-No fighter ACFs

It might not be as bad overall as the CW samurai, but it's still not as good as the fighter.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Weapons of Legacy is bad crunch wise not for Rokugan, but in general. Characters are given weapons with only beneficial abilities, but are forced to take feats and perform arbitrary rituals (not bad, but IC time consuming) to unlock their best abilities, and take penalties to attack rolls, skill points, hit points, and saving throws.

E.G. Desert Wind (A Scimitar):

The Character gains at 20th level
+4 defending flaming burst weapon
+6 enhancement bonus to Dexterity
1/day disintigrate at DC 19 or DC 16+Cha mod, caster level 15th
1/day fireball at DC 14 or DC 13+Cha mod, caster level 10th
3/day Gust of win at DC 13, or DC 12+Cha mod, caster level 5th
3/day burning hands at DC 11, or DC 11+Cha mod, caster level 5th
Treated as having quick draw for the desert wind weapon
Endure Elements constantly on, caster level 5th

So, that all looks pretty nice. Here's what you pay for it:
3 rituals (which apparently grant you the feats as bonus feats)
18 skill points
2 hit points
-2 penalty to saves
-3 penalty to attack rolls


Some have worse or better penalties and worse or better abilities, but you get the idea.

[Gavinfoxx]

Weapons of Legacy is good if you remove all the negatives from them. In other words... the book as written is TERRIBLE.

[Gemini476]

Weapons of Legacy is bad crunch wise not for Rokugan, but in general. Characters are given weapons with only beneficial abilities, but are forced to take feats and perform arbitrary rituals (not bad, but IC time consuming) to unlock their best abilities, and take penalties to attack rolls, skill points, hit points, and saving throws.

You don't actually take the "X Legacy" feats - you get them for free when you complete the relevant ritual. It's probably meant for bookkeeping, but it's also rather confusing and dumb (the feats don't do much).

[BWR]

Personally, mostly because I don't like ToB, I'd dump ToB and just pick up the dual-stat books for the setting. Use the clan-specific feats and prestige classes you find there. Some of their mechanics were kind of crappy, some were fine, some were amazing (just look at the Seppun Miharu - an extra standard action each round!). Basically, the designers weren't too comfortable with d20 and that lead to some odd stuff, but at least it's flavor-wise perfect for the setting.

[Darth Stabber]

I'm curious as to why, as it seems the fighter class already obsoleted the samurai.

Part of it is that OA samurai is not as good as fighter (for reasons other have mentioned)

And a big part of it is fluff baggage from being a rokugani samurai. A samurai is not just a warrior, but also a member of the noble caste. Skilled ashigaru (peasant militia), and budoka (a samurai's warrior retainers) are NOT samurai, they are not held to the same code as samurai, and do not get any of the benefits of being samurai caste. Most of them will be warriors, but a few will be more skilled than an NPC class, and while some of those will be rangers or barbarians, most will be fighters.

Also it's important to note that not all of the samurai caste are Bushi (warriors), courtiers and shugenja are samurai class as well. They carry a wakizashi as a badge of social rank, but not a katana (the mark of a bushi), or if they do they are not given the option of naming a second if challenged to a dual (as carrying a katana indicates ability and willingness to use it). This also means that certain schools of bushi might not necessarily be in the samurai class, even without ToB. The Hida Berserkers of the Razor's Edge Dojo would certainly be classed as barbarians (and the most experienced of their number would probably be frenzied berzerkers). The Tsuruchi school would be archery rangers (and many of them refuse to carry a katana in deference to Tsuruchi). The Daidoji harriers would be either scouts or swordsages (rangers or rogues in core+OA). And all of these schools are only samurai caste. Keep in mind that L5R's class system is significantly different from 3.X's, and d20 was a horrible choice for the setting, but most of what I am referencing is from L5R RPG 3E, which came out after AEG got the rights back from WotC, and most of the dojos have either their own full 5 rank school, or a "path" which is a rank inserted somewhere in another school's progression which modifies the base school to fit the fluff divergence between them. Also the L5R system has WAY higher lethality than 3.x, you can usually survive 1 katana hit, but you aren't going to be very effective afterward (unless you are from one of the crab schools).

[Larkas]

Hmmm, I'll look at Weapons of Legacy closer when I have the time. Might just do away with the downsides and be done with it.


I'm curious as to why, as it seems the fighter class already obsoleted the samurai.

You forgot another important point: a better skill list (gets Diplomacy, Iaijutsu Focus, Perform and Sense Motive; doesn't get Handle Animal). That, together with more skill points and a good Will save are generally considered by critics the main shortcomings of the Fighter class. The custom magic heirlooms are merely icing on the cake (btw, they don't have to be katanas and wakizashis in any OA campaign - though they do in Rokugan; I can certainly see the argument for ogatanas/nodachis, i.e.: great swords, however). On the other hand, the loss of bonus feats (not merely the 1st level one: a samurai 20 has 4 less bonus feats than a fighter 20) and a more limited list to choose from limits the choices for a samurai, though that can be remedied somewhat with level-based feats.

The other listed downsides are not really relevant. ACFs must be carefully screened for Rokugan, anyways, and not every one can fit the setting. The code is there for roleplaying purposes, and even if you were a samurai of another class you can bet I'd enforce it (unless you were a Scorpion, but I digress). "Barbarian dip" is not an option for the samurai caste in Rokugan. If that wasn't the case, I don't see what differs a samurai/barbarian from a monk/barbarian, a build brought up quite frequently in these forums as a way to give monks pounce.

As you can see, you can't really say that the samurai class is better or stronger than the fighter in Rokugan, but it certainly has its niche. You can't say, objectively, that it's obsoleted by it.

Enter the warblade, however. The warblade has a better skill list than the fighter, has as many skill points per level as the samurai and can match the extra damage of Iaijutsu Focus easily with maneuvers. That's not to speak of the other class features. Aside from Sense Motive and a good Will save, the comparison between a warblade and a samurai is very poor for the latter. The samurai might indeed be completely outclassed by a warblade, that is, unlike the fighter, the warblade might completely obsolete the samurai*. The only real advantage the samurai still has over the warblade is the custom magic heirloom. I want to know how attractive that is. Please keep in mind that Rokugan doesn't have a magic market.

* Even though I intend to close the gap a little by adding Martial Study and Martial Stance to the samurai bonus feat list.

[Gavinfoxx]

Thug Fighter ACF is pretty good. Thug, Zhentarim Soldier, Dungeon Crusher... I don't think you can do hit and run tactics with that. Combine all those and call it 'Samurai' or something.

[Blackhawk748]

Honestly i've played a Samurai before, ive also played a lot of Fighters in my time, and i would say that neither really makes the other obsolete. The Samurai has one of the most potent skills in the game Iajutsu Focus, its so awesome they made a PrC for it (personally i think its great, but ill let you judge.) Now the Fighter doesnt have it, but he has more feats and is more flexible than the Samurai, both code wise and option wise. But then again Fighters have always been build-your-own-warrior IMO, which is why i love them.

To put it simply Fighters are the generic warrior, while the Samurai is a specific kind (specifically in Rokugan a noble, which actually gets you a bunch of "bonuses", you can be a **** to peasants with no real negative, people actually need to be polite to you, you get PAID by your lord on a monthly basis)

Also i have played in Rokugan before, its a party if you go all out with the RP. Note: This does mean addressing all nobles as *name*-san, youll feel ridiculous at first but once everyone stops laughing, including you, itll start to rub off on them.

[IronFist]

Don't use d20 to play in Rokugan. It doesn't mesh well, ToB included.
Rokugan has its own techniques and fighting styles, it's a big part of the setting. Adding ToB would mean 'everyone was doing it wrong all along' or retconning half the books. By that point, you're not even in Rokugan anymore, you're in ToBugan.

[Darth Stabber]

Don't use d20 to play in Rokugan. It doesn't mesh well, ToB included.
Rokugan has its own techniques and fighting styles, it's a big part of the setting. Adding ToB would mean 'everyone was doing it wrong all along' or retconning half the books. By that point, you're not even in Rokugan anymore, you're in ToBugan.

Mostly this^

The L5R RPG is pretty good, and was designed specifically for the setting, as opposed to a hamfisted attempt to make it into D&D. Especially given the "low magic item" part, as numerani (magic items) are exceedingly rare and come about mostly naturally (there are like 5 people in all of history who could straight up make them repeatably, and most of them were seriously vile individuals and their process involved human sacrifice). And, as any of us who have played in a "low magic" campaign can attest, that does not work in 3.X. There are several other really important factors that make the two all but incompatible. The take away should be "far east D&D": fine, "rokugon": no. L5R does have it's own balance issues (mirumoto lawnmowers, tsuruchi machine guns, ect), but no moreso than 3.X.

[Blackhawk748]

My experience with Rokugan in 3.5 was good, but then again i went and got every d20 book they made for it as well as read a few of the L5R books for fluff, that and a few of my players had red some of the books, so they knew how to act.

[Darth Stabber]

The better question is: how does d20 mesh with Rokugan?

Answer: not well.

How does ToB mesh with rokugan?

Answer: as well as anything else in d20 does.

Rokugan is one of my favorite RPG settings, but it does not mesh well with d20. Imagine playing Forgotten Realms with WoD rules. Yeah, that's about what it's like. Sure you can make it work, but it won't be the same. Some of the best RPing I have ever done was in L5R, Yogo Toshiru is probably my favorite character that I have ever played, and were I to convert him to OA he would be terrible, since most the scorpion clans deceptive techniques are terrible in 3.x, especially the disarming part (he used his jitte more than his katana). But likewise converting over a D&D character to that system would be ugly (mostly due to lethality).

[IronFist]

Actually, ToB meshes even worse than anything else in 3.5

ToB is all about fightning techniques available to several classes, while Rokugan is al about schools that keep their secrets closely guarded. The concept behind ToB could work, but it clashes with everything else in the Rokugan d20 books - when anyone can get Iron Heart Surge through a pair of feats, being a Daidoji Bodyguard for its closely guarded secret techniques of resistance is pointless. Adding ToB makes all the official clan techniques seem weak and that is not the point in Rokugan. Of course, you could change all the clans and all of ToB and divide it neatly or whatever, but you would need a lot of houserules. Rokugan is not a setting where Fightr McFighty knows better fighting techniques compared to Lord X of Y. Of course, you can make it work with houserules, but then you're either completely dismantling ToB or completely dismantling Rokugan.

[BWR]

I have no problem using d20 for L5R. The games I run/play are usually R&K, but it's the roleplaying aspect that is important. d20 is a bit less lethal than base R&K, and d20 shugenja are a bit hosed in that picking up their deficient element is almost impossible, but really, it doesn't matter much. Multiclassing works well to depict what Schools do in R&K. The hints about what to do in the "Rokugan" campaign setting for d20 work well. A few abilities need to be house ruled, but the same can be said for any system.

[Larkas]

I appreciate the sentiment, guys, but I'm willing to take the risk. Mostly because I've got the Rokugan d20 Campaing Setting, Magic of Rokugan and Creatures of Rokugan books and none of the L5R's, and also because I don't currently have the time to learn a new system. Retconning isn't much of an issue, neither me nor any of my players have ever read any of the novels or played the card game.

On the other hand, it stands to reason what was said about secret techniques being that: secret. In that case, ToB, as it stands, might be a... Not very good fit, RP-wise. Hmmm... Might as well limit schools to clans, much in the same way as feats in the original setting... Hmmm...

Regardless, Rokugan focus seems to be much more RP-based than combat-based. That is a change of pace my group seriously needs.

[BWR]

I can tell you some horror stories about players not getting the setting. Or getting it but not caring to follow it.
If your players are unfamiliar with the setting and are used to hack and slash with few consequences just remember to point out these three things (everything else comes later):
1. You are a small part of the whole. Your job is to do what your boss tells you. Your actions reflect on your family; your family's actions reflect on you.
2. Be polite. Even Crab have certain politeness standards (just a bit laxer than the rest of the Empire). You really can't afford to make enemies of everyone you meet.
3. Don't loot. Unless you're a filthy ronin.

[Larkas]

I can tell you some horror stories about players not getting the setting. Or getting it but not caring to follow it.
If your players are unfamiliar with the setting and are used to hack and slash with few consequences just remember to point out these three things (everything else comes later):
1. You are a small part of the whole. Your job is to do what your boss tells you. Your actions reflect on your family; your family's actions reflect on you.
2. Be polite. Even Crab have certain politeness standards (just a bit laxer than the rest of the Empire). You really can't afford to make enemies of everyone you meet.
3. Don't loot. Unless you're a filthy ronin.

Don't worry, my group does like to roleplay, it's just that the last campaigns were... Badly thought out, to say the least. But thanks for the pointers, those will come in handy when trying to surmise how Rokugan differs from most other settings.

[ArcturusV]

Other Rogukan Tidbits:

Telling the truth is considered incredibly rude and crude. Not even Crabbers or Unicorns go telling the Truth despite the "Honor" thing. Lies are highly prized, and being a Good Liar makes you polite and well liked.

Money is vulgar. You don't amass wealth. The d20 stuff as far as I know didn't mention either of these, though the L5R RPG book did. The standard looting and amassing of wealth isn't something you do as a proper member of Rogukan's elite. It reflects poorly on yourself (Samurai caste don't do distasteful things like touching or searching the dead), and upon your lord (suggesting your lord is so weak and incompetent to not be able to outfit you properly).

Other thing? You might want to consider spellless variants (Preferably better than the CW ones, even if you have to make them up) for the Ranger and maybe Sohei to fit into somethings. Like a Hiruma Shadow Scout, I don't think they actually are supposed to have magic. Then again they're clearly supposed to be rangers in d20 and at the point that they have the ranger levels to take the Shadow Scout PrC they would have spellcasting.

[Darth Stabber]

Other Rogukan Tidbits:

Telling the truth is considered incredibly rude and crude. Not even Crabbers or Unicorns go telling the Truth despite the "Honor" thing. Lies are highly prized, and being a Good Liar makes you polite and well liked.

False: honesty is one of the virtues, lying is despicable, and will lose you honor, but no one ever said you have to speak the truth plainly. Deception is a low skill for a reason, but ettiquette is about diplomatically stating the truth, not lying about it. In the R&K system there is a specialization of etiquette (sincerity) that's about telling the truth deceptively. Lies are not highly prized, even amoung the scorpion (they are willing to do it, but they prefer a more layered and nuanced means).

[BWR]

Not quite right:
Sincerity, not honesty.
A samurai's word is his bond. If he says something, he backs it to the hilt, literally if necessary.
This does not mean everyone is honest. Samurai lie all the time. Mostly little white lies.
Someone asks "how are you today?"
Even if your son is dying of the fever you say "I am fine."

A samurai is expected to lie for his lord. If your lord screwed up, a good retainer takes the blame. Everyone knows who's responsible, but nothing is said or done about the real culprit because someone has already taken the blame. Publically admitting you did not mean what you said, even if it was an honest mistake, is very shaming.

This is one of the main reasons why the Crab are so impolite: they do not accept polite fictions or lies. They do not necessarily tell everyone all the details, but lies and deception are the tools of the Shadowlands.
They have more important things to worry about than not hurting some idiot's feelings. (Yaskui excepted, of course)
And the Unicorn are friends with the Crab for similar feelings on the matter. Polite fictions and maintaining face at all costs are things they don't care for, witness what happened when the Scorpion tried to use their normal blackmail tactics on the recently returned Uni.

[Darth Stabber]

The mantis, who are descended from the crab, share much of their ancestor's views on that subject. Being a clan of "total not pirates" further reinforces this attitude.

But the point about lies is that most clans see them as base, a properly diplomatically couched truth is the ideal. Diplomatic couching is the key, sadane (the art of using compliments to criticize) is a popular sport amoung courtiers for a reason, because that's pretty much half their job.

[BWR]

Um, the Mantis are just as fond of lies as anyone, second only to the Scorpion.
There's a reason the Mantis have such low Honor generally.

[ArcturusV]

My bad then. Though I seem to recall getting that impression from the L5R RPG book. Heck, I even seem to recall "tells the truth" was a crippling flaw for a character in there.

[Darth Stabber]

My bad then. Though I seem to recall getting that impression from the L5R RPG book. Heck, I even seem to recall "tells the truth" was a crippling flaw for a character in there.

"Can't lie" doesn't prevent lying, it just means that no one believes you when you do (you automatically fail any deception rolls related to lying).

As far as honor goes, little white lies are okay (not ideal, and they have to be minor), and taking the fall for your lord is okay (due to the conflict between duty and sincerity), but again the point is to state the truth in the most diplomatic and inoffensive manner. The scorpion, crab, mantis, and unicorn all have slightly different views on this.


The crab and unicorn consider forthrightness and candor to be more important than diplomacy. The Scorpion believe that information should be tightly controlled, and go to great lengths to obtain and keep secrets, lying aids in this, but omission and being vague are far more useful. The mantis are a little of column A and a lot of column B.