Moderate Paladin Optimization

[PraxisVetli]

Here's The Deal.
I need a paladin or similar build, fairly but not god-tier optimized for 2 pcs to fight.
approx lvl: not sure.
Pc's:
(lvl 18)a swordsage kensai fighter, heavy on Desert Wind and TWF (war fans)
(lvl 16) A monk assassin vampire, heavy on TWF and mild range attacks (chakrams)
They're both just in the beginnings of learning the way of optimizing, so they're efficient, but not OP.
I know nothing about Paladins, never done it before, so I figured I'd ask the pro's.
Whatcha got?

[PraxisVetli]

After some heavy reading, this is a base prototype for what I'm thinking.
Please, critique and correct as you deem necessary:
Chaotic Good Human
goliath for lolz?
10 Paladin (of Freedom, UA variant)
1 Barbarian (Lion Totem Complete Champion variant)
9 Fighter? not sure how to fill, not seeing a lot of good Pally based PrC's
Feats
Weapon Focus Lance (Fighter)
Monkey Grip (Fighter)
Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Platinum Lance) (Fighter)
Improved Critical (Fighter)
Powerful Charge?
Improved Bull Rush (Fighter)
Two-Weapon Rend?
Sacred Vengeance
Extra Smiting?
Isn't there a feat somewhere that grants 10' steps instead of 5'?
Leadership (attract Dragon Cohort, Juvenile Silver/Gold Dragon)
Maybe trade Leadership for Divine Justice?

Also, good Weapon and Armour enchantments?

Debating the Dragon, its nice for flavor, but Mounted Combat and TWF don't seem to blend well..

BAB (+18/+18/+9)
Base Saves Fort +15 Ref +6 Will +6
It doesn't seem that bad, but I've no idea what Paladin's are capable of.

Edited for Lances as per Steampike

[GlorinSteampike]

I'd say vs 2 PCs with decent ranged capability, give him the mount, and use ride-by tactics and see if they can keep up. They're both pretty mobile.

BoED brings Champion of Gwynharwyf which is pretty close to the build you've stated as far as Paladin+Barbarian stuffs.

You can go around chunking them with charging smites, and take divine feats for boosts since the vampire will be tough to turn.

Monkey Grip + TWF + Lion Totem barbarian for pounce? 2 lances can be pretty brutal and it would make them spread out. I don't know if it works since the mount is using the charge action, but Ride-By-Attack also says you have to use the charge action so its dysfunctional.

Other fun stuff involves magic of incarnum. Sapphire Smite/Cobalt Power has some good fluff for its mechanics.

[PraxisVetli]

I could do two lances. Would clear up a feat too.
What should I do for mount? Keep the Dragon? Or is there better, low-cost creatures out there?
I wasn't even going to try turning, I was looking to spec for sheer damage.
Ideal enchantments on the Lances?

I see the build though with them. Charge/Overrrun, then with the Lances reach I can keep them both at bay while using Breath Weapon.
Are Vampires immune to cold? Should I try a Gold?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Brief notes: fighter 9 is not good as you get virtually nothing that level. Barb 2 or Pally 11 makes more sense (but not ideal).

Try Paladin 6/ Sacred First 10/ Monk 2 for something simple. Feat intensive (so human is recommended here). Grab superior unarmed strike at 9 so you ultimately hit like a 16th level monk with a pally's pile of aura's, spells like a 16th level paladin, and a BAB of 17. Add in some AC boosting items and a belt of magnificence +4 and he should be fairly difficult to hit, have large saves, and do decent damage. Challenging, but by no means unbeatable.

[PraxisVetli]

Brief notes: fighter 9 is not good as you get virtually nothing that level. Barb 2 or Pally 11 makes more sense (but not ideal).

Try Paladin 6/ Sacred First 10/ Monk 2 for something simple. Feat intensive (so human is recommended here). Grab superior unarmed strike at 9 so you ultimately hit like a 16th level monk with a pally's pile of aura's, spells like a 16th level paladin, and a BAB of 17. Add in some AC boosting items and a belt of magnificence +4 and he should be fairly difficult to hit, have large saves, and do decent damage. Challenging, but by no means unbeatable.

Ooooh, a monk pally, intriguing turn of events...
That seems off though. Just how well can one Unarmed Strike from atop a mount?
Or are you suggesting I forgo the Dragon?

[ZamielVanWeber]

You can feel free to increase the level. Also Paladin 10/ Monk 2/ Sacred Fist 10 would greatly lower the feat tax on the character, so try organizing it like that. Remember to pick out some nice feats. Knowledge Devotion and Able learner could give your paladin a nice edge in combat. A random suggestion for feats:

1: Able Learner, B: divine feat of choice
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Combat Casting
7: B: Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Stunning Fist
8: B: Combat Reflexes
9: Superior Unarmed Strike
12: Exalted KI Strike/Exalted Companion

Sadly you do not get ki strike (lawful), otherwise Holy Ki Strike would be amazing here (as I assume both characters are evil).

[Deox]

Paladin / Monk going into Divine Crusader (Complete Divine) might be a good fit.

Pick a deity and one of their domains. You now get accelerated casting with that domain, and depending on level, can be down right silly (Animal, Destruction, Luck, Protection, Competition, Travel to name just a few).

[PraxisVetli]

You can feel free to increase the level. Also Paladin 10/ Monk 2/ Sacred Fist 10 would greatly lower the feat tax on the character, so try organizing it like that. Remember to pick out some nice feats. Knowledge Devotion and Able learner could give your paladin a nice edge in combat. A random suggestion for feats:

1: Able Learner, B: divine feat of choice
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Combat Casting
7: B: Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Stunning Fist
8: B: Combat Reflexes
9: Superior Unarmed Strike
12: Exalted KI Strike/Exalted Companion

Sadly you do not get ki strike (lawful), otherwise Holy Ki Strike would be amazing here (as I assume both characters are evil).
A safe assumption!
I was originally thinkink Lathander as Diety, But that seems inappropriate now.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I forgot the Ascetic Knight feat. If you take that you end up doing monk damage as a 22nd level monk by level 18 and smite as an 8th level paladin.

[PraxisVetli]

Paladin / Monk going into Divine Crusader (Complete Divine) might be a good fit.

Having just read the two PrC's, I'd say Sacred Fist looks pretty awesome.

Worth it to take that one fiery ki blast feat; the Hadoken one?
Otherwise I might let him just have it, sacred fire blast would be a good way to scare players.

Still questioning the Mount, now more than ever.
This build just screams "self made man" to me.

[PraxisVetli]

I forgot the Ascetic Knight feat. If you take that you end up doing monk damage as a 22nd level monk by level 18 and smite as an 8th level paladin.

oh god, they made one of those feats for PALADINS??
Does the Monken damage go up past 20th lvl?
Speaking of which..
Is the Knight base class worth looking at? It always confounds me.

[Deox]

Having just read the two PrC's, I'd say Sacred Fist looks pretty awesome.

Worth it to take that one fiery ki blast feat; the Hadoken one?
Otherwise I might let him just have it, sacred fire blast would be a good way to scare players.

Still questioning the Mount, now more than ever.
This build just screams "self made man" to me.

If you're heading into Sacred Fist, I'd choose something better to progress my divine casting than Paladin and make the progression really worth it. A single dip into Cloistered Cleric would suffice here.

Monk / C. Cleric / Paladin / Sacred Fist (progressing cleric) could be pretty nifty.

Keep in mind the discrepancy between text and table for Sacred Fist (text trumps table). The bonus here is it becomes a full casting PrC.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Knight is kinda meh for this situation. It tried to tank by drawing aggro off allies. No allies to draw aggro off of. The epic says no to the damage increase, but you will want to grab 2 levels of an other PrC after this, so you still get to enjoy the 2d10 a hit even if you don't up monk anymore.

If you bump him up, take Power Attack and Servant of the Heavens to get into Fist of Raziel. 19th level paladin casting, 22nd level monk damage, smite evil at a 10th level paladin and 3 uses per day.

Make sure you have some means to stopping negative levels! Otherwise the vampire just slam him into oblivion.

[Deox]

oh god, they made one of those feats for PALADINS??
Does the Monken damage go up past 20th lvl?
Speaking of which..
Is the Knight base class worth looking at? It always confounds me.

Knight 3 or Knight 20.

Knight 3 provides Bulwark of Defense, which, when combined with Thicket of Blades and a reach weapon, can become a "tank-ish" type character.

A 20th level Knight can flat out laugh in the face of damage and keep on laying a beat down (provided enough uses of his Knight's Challenge remain).

[PraxisVetli]

If you're heading into Sacred Fist, I'd choose something better to progress my divine casting than Paladin and make the progression really worth it. A single dip into Cloistered Cleric would suffice here.

Monk / C. Cleric / Paladin / Sacred Fist (progressing cleric) could be pretty nifty.

Keep in mind the discrepancy between text and table for Sacred Fist (text trumps table). The bonus here is it becomes a full casting PrC.

I keep seeing Cloistered Cleric in threads, what is that?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Monk / C. Cleric / Paladin / Sacred Fist (progressing cleric) could be pretty nifty.
.

I was trying to keep the shenanigans down a bit. Cleric 6/Monk 2/ Makes for a brutal character to deal with.

[Deox]

I keep seeing Cloistered Cleric in threads, what is that?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric

[ZamielVanWeber]

I keep seeing Cloistered Cleric in threads, what is that?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

It is in there. In short: cleric trades BAB and HD for more skill points and the knowledge domains. Makes a cleric more wizard like. Quite potent.

[Deox]

I was trying to keep the shenanigans down a bit. Cleric 6/Monk 2/ Makes for a brutal character to deal with.

Shenanigans would be to include Divine Metamagic :smallwink:

[ZamielVanWeber]

That goes without saying. DMM Persisted Divine Power is a must to get some BAB back.

[PraxisVetli]

I was trying to keep the shenanigans down a bit. Cleric 6/Monk 2/ Makes for a brutal character to deal with.

I don't mind Shenanigans. While the characters aren't perfect, the two PCs have worked together a few times, know each other's tactics, and the player's are smart.
I wanna give 'em a run for their money!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Cleric 6/Monk2/Sacred Fist 10 with DMM PErsist and Font of Life could easily crush them.

Also Font of Life would be great for that Monk to resist vampire shenanigans. Give me a moment to update recommended feats.

[ZamielVanWeber]

1: Able Learner, B: Power Attack
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Combat Casting
7: B: Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Stunning Fist
8: B: Combat Reflexes
9: Superior Unarmed Strike
12: Servant of the Heavens
15: Font of Life
18: Divine of Choice

I am assuming human here.

[PraxisVetli]

That goes without saying. DMM Persisted Divine Power is a must to get some BAB back.

You guys are losing me..
Assuming DMM is Divine Metamagic, Whats it do?
or just steer me in the direction of which book, I can look it up.
Is Smiting Spell worth mentioning, or can a monk punch out touch spells?

[PraxisVetli]

1: Able Learner, B: Power Attack
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Combat Casting
7: B: Improved Unarmed Strike, B: Stunning Fist
8: B: Combat Reflexes
9: Superior Unarmed Strike
12: Servant of the Heavens
15: Font of Life
18: Divine of Choice

I am assuming human here.

probably human, debated Aasimar, didn't seem worth it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Not being human locks feat 18 into power attack. Lesser Aasimar would give nifty bonuses though.

[Deox]

You guys are losing me..
Assuming DMM is Divine Metamagic, Whats it do?
or just steer me in the direction of which book, I can look it up.
Is Smiting Spell worth mentioning, or can a monk punch out touch spells?

No worries.

Divine Metamagic (DMM) can be found in the Complete Divine. Upon the selection of DMM, you choose a metamagic feat you know. That metamagic may now be applied to a spell of your choice without increase in cost of spell level. Instead, you may spend turn/rebuke undead attempts to "foot" the cost.

DMM, however, is a very slippery slope.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I can actually do a mock up if you want and try to post it tonight, after I get back from work.

[PraxisVetli]

I can actually do a mock up if you want and try to post it tonight, after I get back from work.
Hey, if you're willing, that would be tremendous.


No worries.

Divine Metamagic (DMM) can be found in the Complete Divine. Upon the selection of DMM, you choose a metamagic feat you know. That metamagic may now be applied to a spell of your choice without increase in cost of spell level. Instead, you may spend turn/rebuke undead attempts to "foot" the cost.

DMM, however, is a very slippery slope.

OOOOOOH baby just read it. I see the issue, quickly pounding through the turn attempts. But if he's built for that, can i spare a feat somewhere to grab one that increase the amount of turns i get?
Actually, better yet, dont i get turns for paladin AND cleric?
So possibly not so much of an issue after all?

[Deox]

The issue isn't "How many turn attempts can I stack", but rather, "What ridiculous spells do I want to Persist (which lasts 24 hours) today?"

[PraxisVetli]

The issue isn't "How many turn attempts can I stack", but rather, "What ridiculous spells do I want to Persist (which lasts 24 hours) today?"

When it comes to the spellcasting, I'm a bit of a more arcane kind of guy, don't know much about divine.
Also, still needing a deity, for those pesky domain spells.

...can you persist true strike? I mean, no way that it's that easy...
WHOA. Hold the boat.
Does all this add to meta-ing 9th lvls??

[Deox]

When it comes to the spellcasting, I'm a bit of a more arcane kind of guy, don't know much about divine.
Also, still needing a deity, for those pesky domain spells.

...can you persist true strike? I mean, no way that it's that easy...
WHOA. Hold the boat.
Does all this add to meta-ing 9th lvls??

Can't persist true strike as it is a discharged effect (prohibited by DMM).

And yes, DMM: Persist let's you do stupid things with high level spells.

[PraxisVetli]

Shopping through DNDTools for ideal spells:
Balor Nimbus from Planar Handbook --Is there a more...LG version?
Perhaps the classic Bull's Strength lot.
do Clerics get Greater Mighty Wallop?
Daylight, given nature of opponents
Crown of Flame?

Thats really as far as I'm gonna get for now, I've got work.
Thanks to you guys for your help, its been tremendously useful!! :smallbiggrin:

[cerin616]

even though it is probably not the most optimized, it is my oppinion that no paladin is done without levels in "Fist of Raziel"

Because thats just a cool name.
Plus AOE smite burst sounds badass

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was avoiding DMM because of the insane power it wields. DMM Persist and DMM quicken can really devastate.

[PraxisVetli]

Hey guys. Looking at Fist of Raziel, cuz I was thinking of taking him to 21-22.
Fist looks cool, but seems like I might just want the 2 levels in it, because I want a dip in Paladin for Ascetic Knight to kick, which I would take at 18, moving DMM to 21. That way I can grab a 9th lvl spell from Cleric.
That seem Legit?
However, the lvl 18 feat suggested is "Divine of Choice." I assumed Divine Metamagic of choice, because DndTools isn't coming up with anything from Divine of Choice. While DMM seems ideal, my problem is I don't currently have any Metamagics for DMM to even work.
A 9th lvl slot seemed worth the imperceptible Smite dmg, but is it worth the Divine Grace? Lay on Hands in this case seems as inept as Smite...
I'm also noticing that one problem with this build is that you seem to want every stat to be high.
Str for damage, Dex and Wis for AC, Con for duh, Cha for Lay on Hands and Divine Grace, and Int cuz while you're at it dumping stats, why not??
How do you get them all high enough to be efficient? As an NPC, I can get away saying he has 30 in everything "because I said so", but I would like to have something that makes me look like less of a douche...
Ive seen a belt somewhere that give a bonus to all stats, don't remember where it was.
Also, for being a "Run up and Punch You" character, his BAB is lacking.
Any way to fix that without dumping Str? Because as it, he just isn't going to hit frequently enough, and Flurry of Blows is out of the question.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Divine is a classification of Feats. I recommended ANY feat with the divine classification. DMM is acceptable as long as you previously acquired a metamagic feat. Depending on how long this fight is inteded to go, you may get more use out of DMM Quicken then DMM Persist. Persist saves the caster A LOT of spells over the course of a day's adventuring. Quicken gives you a lot more flexibility to vomit spells around.

Edit: more answers!

Stats: Use this array I just rolled. 15, 14, 17, 13, 18, 16. Yes, I am a lucky SoB.
With the belt +6 and 20 level his stats will look like: 22, 22, 24, 19, 24, 22.

Your BaB is very high with Pally6//Monk2//Sacred Fist10//. That is rocking 17 (1 under max). Knowledge Devotion and strategically placed skills pump that number up. Divine Favor adds another +3/+3. Give him a Belt of Magnificence +6. Boom, you are on a roll.

[PraxisVetli]

While DMM seems ideal, my problem is I don't currently have any Metamagics for DMM to even work.
Looking dndtools, the ideal feat, i think, is purify spell. mainly because in response to the low BAB, radial blasts and rays seem like the way to go.
mostly rays. cuz evasion just kind of ruins the whole concept of fireball

[ZamielVanWeber]

IF you need a metamagic feat for DMM, you really want Persist or Quicken. I know of only a few others that are good and those do shenangians. Also Purfify spells stops your spells from hurting non-evil. Paladins tend to land offesive spells and you should not be using them anyways here.

[PraxisVetli]

Divine is a classification of Feats. I recommended ANY feat with the divine classification. DMM is acceptable as long as you previously acquired a metamagic feat. Depending on how long this fight is inteded to go, you may get more use out of DMM Quicken then DMM Persist. Persist saves the caster A LOT of spells over the course of a day's adventuring. Quicken gives you a lot more flexibility to vomit spells around.

Edit: more answers!

Stats: Use this array I just rolled. 15, 14, 17, 13, 18, 16. Yes, I am a lucky SoB.
With the belt +6 and 20 level his stats will look like: 22, 22, 24, 19, 24, 22.

Your BaB is very high with Pally6//Monk2//Sacred Fist10//. That is rocking 17 (1 under max). Knowledge Devotion and strategically placed skills pump that number up. Divine Favor adds another +3/+3. Give him a Belt of Magnificence +6. Boom, you are on a roll.

I actually went Cleric6//Monk2//Sacred Fist 10//Paladin1//Fist of Raziel2
That seemed to be where things were going. Still at a 17 though, at 3 lvls higher.
Should I trade the cleric lvls for more paladin?
The spells would die, but would the smite and such be worth it?

[PraxisVetli]

I actually went Cleric6//Monk2//Sacred Fist 10//Paladin1//Fist of Raziel2
That seemed to be where things were going. Still at a 17 though, at 3 lvls higher.
Should I trade the cleric lvls for more paladin?
The spells would die, but would the smite and such be worth it?
Though I would have far fewer spells, I would be able to meta them far more, I'm seeing. (currently comparing the two builds)

[ZamielVanWeber]

I actually went Cleric6//Monk2//Sacred Fist 10//Paladin1//Fist of Raziel2
That seemed to be where things were going. Still at a 17 though, at 3 lvls higher.
Should I trade the cleric lvls for more paladin?
The spells would die, but would the smite and such be worth it?

No. Never. Also if you go cleric there is no reason to touch paladin at all and are a lot less stats hungry. So that frees up 3 levels. Divine Power auto-fixes BaB.

[pilvento]

If i may, since i once played a similar character in a mid op campaing and remember you are still facing 2 oponents at the same time.

C.Cleric/monk/PRESTIGE PALADIN/S Fist

Prestige paladin gives paladin features and advances the clerc casting lvl.
there is also a feat, forgot the name ... divine grace? thing is, it lets you use WIS for most of the CHA based paladin features. amazing right?

Go asetic knight and you wont need the mount, and remember, WIS to AC, WIS to DMG, WIS for STUNS, WIS to ALL SAVES, and cleric spells, lots of em.

Make it look cool, let the monk/paly enter the battle with a few minions he will stay in the back wearing a full robe and a hood, making the battlefield explode in holy flames, and once the PCs get near this "wizard" he takes off his robe, revealing his hand sculped body and STUN, FLURRY, BRUCE LEE SFX. :smallcool:

[squarecircle]

I think it's actually called "serenity", though I may be wrong. It's from a dragon mag.

[Sayt]

I think it's actually called "serenity", though I may be wrong. It's from a dragon mag.

Serenity, Dragon Magazine #306, p100, if I recall correctly.

[pilvento]

Serenity, Dragon Magazine #306, p100, if I recall correctly.

yup, that was the one, hope it helps

[PraxisVetli]

Well I trial ran against two other characters, and the DMM is definately over the top. First round, two magic circles and a quickened wall between them.
Couldn't do anything.
Then I just flat killed them.
There were no screams.
There was no time.
-the mountain called monkey had spoken-
This with the build I posted.

Suggestions for replacing DMM? Because if I make the Init, which isn't all that crazy, I win.
I want them to at least fight him...



AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD,
I didn't even have his domain spells, cuz I never chose diety or domain for him.
Or a name. He's currently "Epic Flaming Fist Dude"
Accurate but tacky.

[PraxisVetli]

yup, that was the one, hope it helps

I rather prefer my build, if only because I like favoring the Cleric for spells. But is it worth it to look at trading the pally I have for Prestige Pally?
I could trade out DMM for Mounted Combat to qualify, if I forgo the second level in Fist of Raziel, I can get a mount (which I might just use for flanking and such) And Lay on Hands would be nice, since I didn't progress Monk high enough to get Wholeness of Body. Obviously, as a cleric I can Heal myself, but why not use those to ravage the vampire?
Seems like a worthy trade.
Perhaps trade Font of Life for Serenity?
I know for a fact that He doesn't have to roll higher that a 6 against the Stunning Fist and.....does the vampire slam not have a save? And if it doesn't, Font of Life would give me one, how do I figure the DC? Because if he can regularly make it..

[pilvento]

As long as you play him as a full divine caster they will NEVER stand a chance, like... never.

[cerin616]

In my opninion there is no point in being a paladin and not taking fist of raziel. Its not the most op thing ever, but its just so damn cool.