FR mystery: Why do Faerûnians bury their dead?

[meto30]

This is a strange mystery that I've not been able to come up with a suitable explaination:

In the continent of Faerûn, the main continent of the Forgotten Realms setting, people usually bury their dead. This is evident from the abundant examples of cemeteries in Faerûnian cities (not to mention the absolutely HUGE burial complex in Waterdeep!). However, undead problems are so commonplace in the high-magic setting of FR that there are multiple organizations dedicated to various deities focusing on destroying undead, such as the Doomguides of Kelemvor; keeping so many more-or-less intact bodies to animate in concentrated settings seems very dangerous. Also, AFAIK there is little religious or practical reason for Faerûnians to favor burial over cremation; there is no universal bodily resurrection or such teaching to compel people to shun cremation, and resurrection spells are so expensive that they are bound to be out of reach for the majority of people. The one universal law regarding the dead is that the Faithless and the False are punished by being placed on the Wall; it has nothing to do with funeral procedures. Clearly, there is something missing here; the evidence points to the fact that Faerûnians vastly favor burial, but I can't see the reason why.

So, my question is, is there some canon reason why burial is prevalent? If not, what might be that reason? Some continent-wide silly belief that burial is required for safe passage to the Fugue plane? (might make sense in that those huge cemeteries are mostly human-made, and humans tend to be superstitious in FR). Perhaps some unsafe side results of cremation and other funeral processes (such as wraiths forming from cremated bodies)? What do you think?

[Fouredged Sword]

Because if you burn the bodies you get ghosts or ash monsters or some such. Really, necromancers are the Martha Stewarts of spellcasters, in that they can make something useful out of anything.

Better to keep the bodies intact so they get zombies and skeletons that a commoner stands a reasonable chance of evading or defeating with slings and arrows rather than horrible ash monsters that can't be hurt by standard weapons.

[meto30]

Because if you burn the bodies you get ghosts or ash monsters or some such. Really, necromancers are the Martha Stewarts of spellcasters, in that they can make something useful out of anything.

Better to keep the bodies intact so they get zombies and skeletons that a commoner stands a reasonable chance of evading or defeating with slings and arrows rather than horrible ash monsters that can't be hurt by standard weapons.

In case of ash monsters, wouldn't scattering the ash be an effective and cheap counter? And more importantly, is that a canon reason? I'd like to know, because if there is a canon one then I won't need this discussion anymore.

[Flickerdart]

Lobbyist pressure funded by Big Necro, obviously.

[Eldan]

Burning the dead is difficult. Bodies tend to be very wet, so to burn them, one needs huge amounts of wood. As in, cartloads. It's complicated, costly and around a large city, it would probably deforest the landscape.

It's probably the main reason why we bury our dead.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The soil in Faerun could also be exceptionally fertile, so anyone who is buried would decay down to a skeleton very quickly.

[Dimers]

Bodies tend to be very wet, so to burn them, one needs huge amounts of wood. As in, cartloads. It's complicated, costly and around a large city, it would probably deforest the landscape.

And this being Faerun rather than Tippyverse, people haven't thought of making automatically-resetting burning hands traps, or something of that sort. (EDIT: now there's a use for matter agitation power!)

Perhaps it's an unstated assumption that corpses usually get some sort of anti-undead-ifying spell cast on them prior to burial? I have no idea about FR canon, but it makes sense. Quicklime might help too.

Ritual exposure is another way some RL cultures have dealt with the bodies of the dead, allowing them to be eaten and weathered away. I expect that would not work well for large cities, which Faerun has a-plenty. And the bodies are still open to necroturgic nefariousness during the exposure period, just not after.

[meto30]

Burning the dead is difficult. Bodies tend to be very wet, so to burn them, one needs huge amounts of wood. As in, cartloads. It's complicated, costly and around a large city, it would probably deforest the landscape.

It's probably the main reason why we bury our dead.

Hm, that actually is a very reasonable explanation; I wasn't thinking of the water content of bodies. That much fuel would be difficult to obtain indeed, especially given the high populations of many Faerûnian cities. Combined with Fouredged Sword's reason, perhaps I can fluff it in that while complete cremation is rather safe, incomplete cremation tends to create wraiths, ghosts, and other horrors?


The soil in Faerun could also be exceptionally fertile, so anyone who is buried would decay down to a skeleton very quickly.

Given the wide-spread influence of the Church of Chauntea and their fertility-increasing rituals, that might actually work too.


And this being Faerun rather than Tippyverse, people haven't thought of making automatically-resetting burning hands traps, or something of that sort.

Perhaps it's an unstated assumption that corpses usually get some sort of anti-undead-ifying spell cast on them prior to burial? I have no idea about FR canon, but it makes sense. Quicklime might help too.

Ritual exposure is another way some RL cultures have dealt with the bodies of the dead, allowing them to be eaten and weathered away. I expect that would not work well for large cities, which Faerun has a-plenty. And the bodies are still open to necroturgic nefariousness during the exposure period, just not after.

Doomguides of Kelemvor, specialized clerics of the deity of the dead whose goals are purging the world of undead, have a unique ritual called the Ritual of the Passing that prevents bodies from being animated, period (barring direct divine intervention). That definitely fits the bill, although Doomguides aren't that numerous.

[Tvtyrant]

The easiest way to do this would be for each city to have a menagerie of corpse eating animals. Crocodiles are probably best because they digest the highest percentage of the body, or find some magical beast/aberration that eats everything.

[meto30]

The easiest way to do this would be for each city to have a menagerie of corpse eating animals. Crocodiles are probably best because they digest the highest percentage of the body, or find some magical beast/aberration that eats everything.

That will be effective; the problem is, according to the setting, people don't actually do that in FR. The discussion is on why.

[Starmage21]

Burying the dead has more to do with animals that would arrive to eat the body. Faer�ûnians probably bury their dead because its similar enough to what we do IRL. That said, the ingame explaination is weak, and skeletons/zombies are easy to destroy even for 1st level clerics.

[Scots Dragon]

Another point to consider raised in one of the sourcebooks is that the undead are not, strictly speaking, automatically evil in the Realmslore. There was mention in one of the sourcebooks of legions of the dead rising in cities under siege, specifically so that they might defend their descendants or carry them to safety.

[Tvtyrant]

That will be effective; the problem is, according to the setting, people don't actually do that in FR. The discussion is on why.

Because we mostly don't, probably. The cultures that are designed to feel "foreign" to the players are going to be the least like medieval Europe, and the most familiar ones are going to be the most like medieval Europe (is said Europe were dominated by casters.)

[meto30]

Burying the dead has more to do with animals that would arrive to eat the body. Faer�ûnians probably bury their dead because its similar enough to what we do IRL. That said, the ingame explaination is weak, and skeletons/zombies are easy to destroy even for 1st level clerics.

There is a big difference between RW and FR: the undead. Undead, and spellcasters capable of animating corpses, are commonplace in FR. There are literally millions of spellcasters alive on the planet at any one moment, and a huge portion of them can animate dead, because FR NPCs tend to have very high levels compared to other campaign settings. A rogue necromancer raising an army of zombies to achieve some sick goal is such a common occurrence in the world that even common folk are used to such things happening. In some places like Neverwinter, such things happen every few years or so. Even town militias are stocked with holy water to counter smaller undead epidemics.

My primary question is why Faerunians aren't doing something to prevent such things from happening? At least they can prevent the necromancers getting easy access to raise-able bodies by not building cemeteries.




Because we mostly don't, probably. The cultures that are designed to feel "foreign" to the players are going to be the least like medieval Europe, and the most familiar ones are going to be the most like medieval Europe (is said Europe were dominated by casters.)

I'm the sort of DM that would like to have an explanation handy if players have a question, especially on the world-building department. I can't give a reason I myself am not convinced on.

BTW, hello there Tvtyrant! Long time no see; I really need to return to ponythread, and I'll do so ASAP.




Another point to consider raised in one of the sourcebooks is that the undead are not, strictly speaking, automatically evil in the Realmslore. There was mention in one of the sourcebooks of legions of the dead rising in cities under siege, specifically so that they might defend their descendants or carry them to safety.

That is a very important piece of information; might I ask which sourcebook it is? I'll need to check that immediately. Also, I really should read up on FR novels...

[Scow2]

Hm, that actually is a very reasonable explanation; I wasn't thinking of the water content of bodies. That much fuel would be difficult to obtain indeed, especially given the high populations of many Faerûnian cities. Combined with Fouredged Sword's reason, perhaps I can fluff it in that while complete cremation is rather safe, incomplete cremation tends to create wraiths, ghosts, and other horrors?What the heck is with the myth that complete cremation would be safer than any other kind of corpse disposal? All that does is guarantee that if the body's gonna rise, it's going to do so as some sort of flaming ghost thing that can't be destroyed without magic. Undead don't care if they're intact or not - if a dead guy wants to come back to life, he's going to do so!

The absolute safest way to dispose of bodies is to bury them in a consecrated area under several tons of dirt. In the unlikely event the consecration doesn't keep the dead from animating/raising, the dirt keeps them down either indefinitely, or long enough for a Cleric to turn/destroy them. Or, to make it even SAFER, you can put them in a sealed, strong wooden or metal vault before burying them, so that they can't get out, and if they do, they STILL have to climb through an impossible amount of dirt.

It's also MUCH more economical and ecologically friendly to bury people than to gather the resources to burn them (Which puts a LOT of toxic pollution in the air).

[erikun]

The easiest way to do this would be for each city to have a menagerie of corpse eating animals. Crocodiles are probably best because they digest the highest percentage of the body, or find some magical beast/aberration that eats everything.
Hyenas can crack bone with their jaws, and so would probably be the best candidate. However, I'd think that Faerunians would probably not want hyenas nearby their cities for much the same reason that we don't want them near our cities; giving a predator human remains and listening to them snack on bone in the middle of the night is probably just a little bit disconcerning.

I could definitely see Gnoll society working this way, though.
[/randomconcept]

[hamishspence]

That is a very important piece of information; might I ask which sourcebook it is? I'll need to check that immediately. Also, I really should read up on FR novels...

I believe TV Tropes quotes it as being the 2nd ed version of Lords of Darkness.

[angry_bear]

Chances are that nobody thought of using cremation as the go to method of dead body disposal. They probably should consider it, but yeah... It's most likely just an oversight by the people of Faerun.

[erikun]

Hyenas can crack bone with their jaws, and so would probably be the best candidate. However, I'd think that Faerunians would probably not want hyenas nearby their cities for much the same reason that we don't want them near our cities; giving a predator human remains and listening to them snack on bone in the middle of the night is probably just a little bit disconcerning.
This is a worse idea the more I think about it.

Pretty much taking any creature capable of eating humanoids and giving them a diet of humanoids is just asking for trouble. You're basically training them to eat humanoids, and so there shouldn't be much surprise as to what happens when they get free.

You also have the problem of needing to store bodies until they are ready to be eaten - crocodiles and hyenas are going to be eating daily, and people don't conveniently die with a timely schedule. Plus, there is the big problem of humanoid disease. It may not affect the animal, but now you'd have a carnivorous, humanoid-eating disease carrier that could get loose and run around town.

Oozes could potentially work as being mindless, although only a Gelatenous Cube could reasonably be contained and doesn't necessarily avoid any of the problems above (except perhaps needing to eat daily).

[cerin616]

Also need to think about what burning bodies might attract. Like when you cook in the woods and attract a bear, you could probably burn some bodies and attract some nasty stuff in FR.

Burning bodies can also spread certain diseases that aren't affected by fire.

Burning bodies efficiently without natural gas would be a challenge as well.

[Starbuck_II]

This is a worse idea the more I think about it.

Pretty much taking any creature capable of eating humanoids and giving them a diet of humanoids is just asking for trouble. You're basically training them to eat humanoids, and so there shouldn't be much surprise as to what happens when they get free.

You also have the problem of needing to store bodies until they are ready to be eaten - crocodiles and hyenas are going to be eating daily, and people don't conveniently die with a timely schedule. Plus, there is the big problem of humanoid disease. It may not affect the animal, but now you'd have a carnivorous, humanoid-eating disease carrier that could get loose and run around town.

Oozes could potentially work as being mindless, although only a Gelatenous Cube could reasonably be contained and doesn't necessarily avoid any of the problems above (except perhaps needing to eat daily).

Wait, now we know why there are so many rats in FR (and diseased Dire rats): Corpse dispersal cleaning!

Next time someone hires you to clean the rats out of their basement: ask what they were trying to clean up down there; who died?

[Spuddles]

Because if you burn the bodies you get ghosts or ash monsters or some such. Really, necromancers are the Martha Stewarts of spellcasters, in that they can make something useful out of anything.

Better to keep the bodies intact so they get zombies and skeletons that a commoner stands a reasonable chance of evading or defeating with slings and arrows rather than horrible ash monsters that can't be hurt by standard weapons.

You get ghosts for reasons beyond proper funeral rites. You can get a ghost AND a zombie from the same corpse. If you burn it, the most you'll get will be a ghost.


Burning the dead is difficult. Bodies tend to be very wet, so to burn them, one needs huge amounts of wood. As in, cartloads. It's complicated, costly and around a large city, it would probably deforest the landscape.

Let them dry out for a month in a catacomb. By burning all corpses more than a month old, you put a severe limit on how many undead a large city provides.


It's probably the main reason why we bury our dead.

No, we bury our dead for reasons we can't talk about on these forums.


That will be effective; the problem is, according to the setting, people don't actually do that in FR. The discussion is on why.

Honestly? Because FR was written fluff first, without considering how culture would evolve in the presence of magic.

Europeans largely bury their dead due to beliefs of the afterlife, and the authors of FR incorporated European beliefs wholesale to give that pseudo-medieval feel for the Realms.


What the heck is with the myth that complete cremation would be safer than any other kind of corpse disposal? All that does is guarantee that if the body's gonna rise, it's going to do so as some sort of flaming ghost thing that can't be destroyed without magic. Undead don't care if they're intact or not - if a dead guy wants to come back to life, he's going to do so!

The absolute safest way to dispose of bodies is to bury them in a consecrated area under several tons of dirt. In the unlikely event the consecration doesn't keep the dead from animating/raising, the dirt keeps them down either indefinitely, or long enough for a Cleric to turn/destroy them. Or, to make it even SAFER, you can put them in a sealed, strong wooden or metal vault before burying them, so that they can't get out, and if they do, they STILL have to climb through an impossible amount of dirt.

It's also MUCH more economical and ecologically friendly to bury people than to gather the resources to burn them (Which puts a LOT of toxic pollution in the air).

The events that lead to spontaneous rising of evil spirits are different than finding the contents of your graveyard sieging your city because a wizard is having a laugh. Spontaneous undead rising is a policing problem; animated hordes of corpses is a national security issue and a military concern. The stuff that makes a ghost or a fire ghost rise are basically the same thing, so you still need magic FBI agents or whatever.

[Tvtyrant]

This is a worse idea the more I think about it.

Pretty much taking any creature capable of eating humanoids and giving them a diet of humanoids is just asking for trouble. You're basically training them to eat humanoids, and so there shouldn't be much surprise as to what happens when they get free.

You also have the problem of needing to store bodies until they are ready to be eaten - crocodiles and hyenas are going to be eating daily, and people don't conveniently die with a timely schedule. Plus, there is the big problem of humanoid disease. It may not affect the animal, but now you'd have a carnivorous, humanoid-eating disease carrier that could get loose and run around town.

Oozes could potentially work as being mindless, although only a Gelatenous Cube could reasonably be contained and doesn't necessarily avoid any of the problems above (except perhaps needing to eat daily).

Put the cubes down the end of long, greased pits made of rock and iron, with a trap door covering the top and locking. You open it up, drop the bodies in, close up shop and forget about it. Throw the rest of your food garbage in there too so that the cubes do not die between sittings.

[cerin616]

No, we bury our dead for reasons we can't talk about on these forums.

Honestly? Because FR was written fluff first, without considering how culture would evolve in the presence of magic.


Well now that depends on your opinion of religion...

[Spuddles]

Put the cubes down the end of long, greased pits made of rock and iron, with a trap door covering the top and locking. You open it up, drop the bodies in, close up shop and forget about it. Throw the rest of your food garbage in there too so that the cubes do not die between sittings.

A gelatinous cube can get, at most, a 20 to climb (+0 str, no skill ranks, natural 20 on a roll). Which makes a brick pit sufficient to contain one.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldan
Burning the dead is difficult. Bodies tend to be very wet, so to burn them, one needs huge amounts of wood. As in, cartloads. It's complicated, costly and around a large city, it would probably deforest the landscape.

I very much doubt this is a major factor, either in Faerûn or actual history. Cities tend to deforest surrounding landscapes for agriculture and sprawl as a matter of course, without regard to funerary practices.


Originally Posted by spuddles
Honestly? Because FR was written fluff first, without considering how culture would evolve in the presence of magic.

This is almost certainly the best out-of-game explanation, but doesn't really address the need for an in-game rationale.


Originally Posted by Dimers
Perhaps it's an unstated assumption that corpses usually get some sort of anti-undead-ifying spell cast on them prior to burial?

In fact, Burial Blessing solves this issue rather handily--a first-level cleric spell that permanently wards against unwilling reanimation. It's 3.0, from Defenders of Faith, but there's no reason it can't be a universal aspect of burial rites in Faerûn.

[Crake]

I cant think of a reasonable reason to not hallow all cemetaries. Simply because Hallow has a very nifty line "any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be turned into an undead creature." Note that it doesn't say "while in the hallowed area". Once interred, that body can never be turned into an undead. Ever.

Thus, there goes your necromancer problem.

[meto30]

Well now that depends on your opinion of religion...

I believe the forum rules prohibit any discussion on actual RW religions. Talking about the religious reasons of burying instead of cremating them (I know the stance of the Roman Catholic Church, for example) would be breaking that prohibition.


I believe TV Tropes quotes it as being the 2nd ed version of Lords of Darkness.

Thank you! Now the question becomes obtaining the 2ed Lords of Darkness.


Chances are that nobody thought of using cremation as the go to method of dead body disposal. They probably should consider it, but yeah... It's most likely just an oversight by the people of Faerun.

Well, it's a workable explanation. Just... a bit weak for my tastes. There had been more than a millenia of human civilization in Toril, surely at least one archmage though of the issue.


Also need to think about what burning bodies might attract. Like when you cook in the woods and attract a bear, you could probably burn some bodies and attract some nasty stuff in FR.

Burning bodies can also spread certain diseases that aren't affected by fire.

Burning bodies efficiently without natural gas would be a challenge as well.

Well, they did invent safer and more efficient crematoriums in the Renaissance, and FR's technological level is roughly at the Renaissance, so I think those problems can be worked around.



Let them dry out for a month in a catacomb. By burning all corpses more than a month old, you put a severe limit on how many undead a large city provides.

Honestly? Because FR was written fluff first, without considering how culture would evolve in the presence of magic.

Europeans largely bury their dead due to beliefs of the afterlife, and the authors of FR incorporated European beliefs wholesale to give that pseudo-medieval feel for the Realms.

That is a very nice solution, keeping the dead in catacombs for periods of time. If a PC or NPC were to come up with a practical solution to preventing undead animation, then that would be one of the primary recommendations.

FR does show a lot of fluff-first evidences, and it saddens me a bit. That doesn't stop me from trying to make those fluff work! XD


I very much doubt this is a major factor, either in Faerûn or actual history. Cities tend to deforest surrounding landscapes for agriculture and sprawl as a matter of course, without regard to funerary practices.

This is almost certainly the best out-of-game explanation, but doesn't really address the need for an in-game rationale.

In fact, Burial Blessing solves this issue rather handily--a first-level cleric spell that permanently wards against unwilling reanimation. It's 3.0, from Defenders of Faith, but there's no reason it can't be a universal aspect of burial rites in Faerûn.

And FR lacks those religious reasons of Europe, so we need some other rationale.

That solution would also work well. The problem, again, is that such solutions are apparently not in widespread use in FR, as necromancers seem to have no shortage of bodies to animate. Since clerics themselves are very widespread and numerous (even frontier towns have 1st lvl clerics!), I can only presume that spell is either not in the setting or not in common clerical repertoire.


I cant think of a reasonable reason to not hallow all cemetaries. Simply because Hallow has a very nifty line "any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be turned into an undead creature." Note that it doesn't say "while in the hallowed area". Once interred, that body can never be turned into an undead. Ever.

Thus, there goes your necromancer problem.

As the DM I'd be compelled to reword that spell so it works while only in the hallowed area. As I've said before, it is evident that necromancers have little problem animating bodies once they're out of the crypts, and therefore hallow shouldn't work that way to allow for the fluff. As far as I'm aware hallowing catacombs is a common practice in FR, especially for big cities as they almost always have higher level clergy.

[cerin616]

I believe the forum rules prohibit any discussion on actual RW religions. Talking about the religious reasons of burying instead of cremating them (I know the stance of the Roman Catholic Church, for example) would be breaking that prohibition.

True, but its clear that the concept of burying bodies in FR stems from RW religious reasons.

I was just saying that one can't simply state people did it for religious reasons. there is an age old debate on what came first, the actions or the religions.

[ArqArturo]

1.- Bury the dead
2.- Consecrate the graveyard
3.- Profit

[Scow2]

I cant think of a reasonable reason to not hallow all cemetaries. Simply because Hallow has a very nifty line "any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be turned into an undead creature." Note that it doesn't say "while in the hallowed area". Once interred, that body can never be turned into an undead. Ever.

Thus, there goes your necromancer problem.
This was the other part I was trying to get at, but I forgot the name of the spell. And, although it requires a Grand Priest to consecrate, each cemetary only needs to be hallowed once - ever. Being instantaneous, the only way it can be revoked is through an Unhallow.

[meto30]

True, but its clear that the concept of burying bodies in FR stems from RW religious reasons.

I was just saying that one can't simply state people did it for religious reasons. there is an age old debate on what came first, the actions or the religions.

Ah, I see. I apologize for me too-rash response to your statement, dear sir.


This was the other part I was trying to get at, but I forgot the name of the spell. And, although it requires a Grand Priest to consecrate, each cemetary only needs to be hallowed once - ever. Being instantaneous, the only way it can be revoked is through an Unhallow.

I state again: because in FR history necromancers can animate bodies interred in crypts just fine, and FR crypts are often protected by such spells, for the fluff to hold, the spell can't work that way.

[ArqArturo]

This was the other part I was trying to get at, but I forgot the name of the spell. And, although it requires a Grand Priest to consecrate, each cemetary only needs to be hallowed once - ever. Being instantaneous, the only way it can be revoked is through an Unhallow.

And since this is FR, the necromancers are gonna start carrying scrolls of unhallow.

EDIT: Oh, wait (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Unhallow)...

[Crake]

And since this is FR, the necromancers are gonna start carrying scrolls of unhallow.

Actually, unhallow counters but does not dispel hallow. So you can use an unhallow scroll to stop an area being hallowed during the 24 hour ritual, but unhallowing an area doesnt stop the hallow effect strangely enough. At least not by RAW; you simply get both effects.

[ArqArturo]

Yup, just read that.

[Spuddles]

This was the other part I was trying to get at, but I forgot the name of the spell. And, although it requires a Grand Priest to consecrate, each cemetary only needs to be hallowed once - ever. Being instantaneous, the only way it can be revoked is through an Unhallow.

Yeah, if you're stacking corpses like cordwood. Otherwise, 5k square feet isn't that much space for a small city over 100 years.

[Feytalist]

I state again: because in FR history necromancers can animate bodies interred in crypts just fine, and FR crypts are often protected by such spells, for the fluff to hold, the spell can't work that way.

Not necessarily. Often does not mean always. An enterprising necromancer could just hunt around for a burial ground that, for whatever reason, was not hallowed.

[Crake]

Yeah, if you're stacking corpses like cordwood. Otherwise, 5k square feet isn't that much space for a small city over 100 years.

When the graveyard starts to fill, expand it with another hallow? It's only 1000gp, and clerics who hate undead would likely do it pro-bono to stem undead creation.

[LibraryOgre]

This is a strange mystery that I've not been able to come up with a suitable explaination:

In the continent of Faerûn, the main continent of the Forgotten Realms setting, people usually bury their dead.

My answer:

http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2013/07/corpses-and-caches.html

[Spuddles]

When the graveyard starts to fill, expand it with another hallow? It's only 1000gp, and clerics who hate undead would likely do it pro-bono to stem undead creation.

Well then, each cemetery needs to be Hallowed more than once, doesn't it?

[meto30]

Not necessarily. Often does not mean always. An enterprising necromancer could just hunt around for a burial ground that, for whatever reason, was not hallowed.

I believe I know of at least two actual instances in FR lore where a protected and blessed crypt was desecrated and all its interred corpses animated (one being in the adventure Scouring of Shadowdale). Because of the level of the clergy who created those crypts (reverse-calculated from the level of protections originally on them and the importance of beings interred within), I presume Hallow was among the protections used, and following the same logic, hallow shouldn't be allowed to work that way. Besides, if hallow cannot be removed, it gives a too-easy counter to necromancy, which is a very big and ubiquitous threat in FR lore.

And once more, I'm not looking for ways to prevent undead animation. I'm looking for reasons why FR humans bury their dead, which is very vulnerable to necromancers, as evident in the fluff.



My answer:

http://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2013/07/corpses-and-caches.html

That.... is the best answer I've yet seen. It seems a bit outdated on the Afterlife side, but I think it can be reworked to fit with the lore of the Wall of the Faithless. Thank you. I believe I can more-or-less close this discussion now.

[Coidzor]

This is a strange mystery that I've not been able to come up with a suitable explaination:

In the continent of Faerûn, the main continent of the Forgotten Realms setting, people usually bury their dead. This is evident from the abundant examples of cemeteries in Faerûnian cities (not to mention the absolutely HUGE burial complex in Waterdeep!). However, undead problems are so commonplace in the high-magic setting of FR that there are multiple organizations dedicated to various deities focusing on destroying undead, such as the Doomguides of Kelemvor; keeping so many more-or-less intact bodies to animate in concentrated settings seems very dangerous.


Another question, why do necromancers keep mucking about with small fry corpses of scrubs instead of more fearsome animals and monsters?

Humanoids only matter as undead if you make already powerful-in-life dead people into special undead or you're trying to set off a wightocalypse, in which case you don't even need very many corpses to start with and would be starting by murdering living people as the quickest route to making them anyway.


Yeah, if you're stacking corpses like cordwood. Otherwise, 5k square feet isn't that much space for a small city over 100 years.

I liked Terry Pratchett's solution to limited space in the Temple of Small Gods' cemetery. disassembled skeletons take a lot less space than a full corpse or burial plot, and catacombs have a way of naturally expanding over time in D&D land anyway.

[meto30]

Another question, why do necromancers keep mucking about with small fry corpses of scrubs instead of more fearsome animals and monsters?

Humanoids only matter as undead if you make already powerful-in-life dead people into special undead or you're trying to set off a wightocalypse, in which case you don't even need very many corpses to start with and would be starting by murdering living people as the quickest route to making them anyway.

Looking at the Undead Legions of Thay, it is apparent that FR necromancers have many ways of making human undead more powerful. Also, due to the size of the typical crypts in Faerûn, the size of the undead host a group of spellcasters can animate is very, very huge.

I can imagine a group animating the entire corpse collection of Waterdeep's City of the Dead - that would result in an undead army numbering in the tens of millions. According to the fluff, there are already many necromancers working in the bowels of that colossal burial site, and in the same fluff, it is also one of the most heavily protected burial sites on the continent, patrolled day and night by an entire battalion of City Watch soldiers and clerics. Apparently, hallow effects are being removed regularly here.

[cerin616]

Well then, each cemetery needs to be Hallowed more than once, doesn't it?

An area cannot be affected by more than one hallow spell

[Scow2]

Yeah, if you're stacking corpses like cordwood. Otherwise, 5k square feet isn't that much space for a small city over 100 years.

Which is why you hallow the Morturary instead of the Graveyard. Any body that passes through it and is interred (For at least a short while) will never become Undead.


An area cannot be affected by more than one hallow spellActually, all it does is cause the hallow effects to overlap (Not stack), and override any previous rider effect. But, you're not hallowing the same area anyway - you're hallowing the adjacent 5,0002 feet.

[LibraryOgre]

That.... is the best answer I've yet seen. It seems a bit outdated on the Afterlife side, but I think it can be reworked to fit with the lore of the Wall of the Faithless. Thank you. I believe I can more-or-less close this discussion now.

I base things on an older version of the afterlife, partially because the wall of faithless is kinda stupid.

[Spuddles]

Another question, why do necromancers keep mucking about with small fry corpses of scrubs instead of more fearsome animals and monsters?

Humanoids only matter as undead if you make already powerful-in-life dead people into special undead or you're trying to set off a wightocalypse, in which case you don't even need very many corpses to start with and would be starting by murdering living people as the quickest route to making them anyway.

There are A LOT of humanoids and Animate Dead skeletons come with weapon proficiency of whatever manufactured weapon their animated with. Good way to get a lot of corpse bowman, and if you're using masses of scrubs, archery is the way to go.

That, and humanoid corpses are easy to get ahold of because they're conveniently stored outside of cities in high density, forever.


Which is why you hallow the Morturary instead of the Graveyard. Any body that passes through it and is interred (For at least a short while) will never become Undead.

Clever. I'm not convinced that corpses disinterred and removed from the Hallowed ground can't be animated, though. The rules merely state that a corpse interred in a Hallowed area cannot be animated as an undead. Presumably, if that corpse is no longer interred in a Hallowed area, it no longer qualifies vs. protection from being animated.

[meto30]

I base things on an older version of the afterlife, partially because the wall of faithless is kinda stupid.

Our campaign revolves heavily around the Wall, and I think it gives FR a nice dark undertone that I really like. I do hope you're okay with me just incorporating your idea like this, though.

[Talderas]

Burying the dead is a complex plan created a long time ago by forces opposed to undead. The theory goes that by burying a large number of corpses in close proximity you encourage the more disliked members of the world (necromancers) to set up shop in these cemetaries and tombs. Then the less desireables would start creating undead of which some would invariably escape and terrorize the local population serving as an appropriate context by which to hirer adventurers to stimulate the local economy as well as dispose of the undesirable.

[ArqArturo]

Burying the dead is a complex plan created a long time ago by forces opposed to undead. The theory goes that by burying a large number of corpses in close proximity you encourage the more disliked members of the world (necromancers) to set up shop in these cemetaries and tombs. Then the less desireables would start creating undead of which some would invariably escape and terrorize the local population serving as an appropriate context by which to hirer adventurers to stimulate the local economy as well as dispose of the undesirable.

And in what part of this scam comes the guy with the cart, yelling 'bring out your dead!' in the streets takes place?.

Also, can he pick undead/near dead and place them in the cart?.

[cerin616]

Which is why you hallow the Morturary instead of the Graveyard. Any body that passes through it and is interred (For at least a short while) will never become Undead.

Actually, all it does is cause the hallow effects to overlap (Not stack), and override any previous rider effect. But, you're not hallowing the same area anyway - you're hallowing the adjacent 5,0002 feet.

I may have misread why he said we need mroe than one hallow spell, I assumed he meant to stop an unhallow from removeing the hallow effect, but adjacent tover more area works fine.

And they dont stack, and they dont overlap.

An area can receive only one hallow spell (and its associated spell effect) at a time

So, if a hallow is in effect, you cannot cast hallow there.

[Spuddles]

I may have misread why he said we need mroe than one hallow spell, I assumed he meant to stop an unhallow from removeing the hallow effect, but adjacent tover more area works fine.

And they dont stack, and they dont overlap.


So, if a hallow is in effect, you cannot cast hallow there.

The problem is that if you keep a corpse forever, you need more space to keep more corpses. 5000 sqft isn't really that much space to store all the dead from everyone, forever. Or at least the hundred or so years corpses will last underground. In acidic soils or dry soils, corpses can last 1000s of years.

That leads to the inevitable conclusion that you may need more than one hallow spell per graveyard.

[Mystia]

Well, I, personally, think that the reason why they're buried mostly is just the same ones as they are for burial in the real world, like I think someone has already said here. A way of showing respect and that you care for the ones gone, and also something that evolved with the human culture itself (though I'm not familiar with how the creation myths are in Faerun). Here are the most obvious reasons I guess:

Human burial practices are the manifestation of the human desire to demonstrate "respect for the dead", and to prevent the possibilities of revenants [ghosts] harming the living. Cultures vary in their mode of respect.
Among the reasons for this are:
- Respect for the physical remains. If left lying on top of the ground, scavengers may eat the corpse, considered disrespectful to the deceased in many (but not all) cultures. In Tibet, Sky burials return the remains to the cycle of life and acknowledge the body as "food," a core tenet of some Buddhist practices.
- Burial can be seen as an attempt to bring closure to the deceased's family and friends. Psychologists in some Western Judeo-Christian quarters, as well as the US funeral industry, claim that by interring a body away from plain view, the pain of losing a loved one can be lessened.
- Many cultures believe in an afterlife. Burial is sometimes believed to be a necessary step for an individual to reach the afterlife.
- Many religions prescribe a particular way to live, which includes customs relating to disposal of the dead.
- A decomposing body releases unpleasant gases related to decomposition. As such, burial is seen as a means of preventing smells from expanding into open air.
I guess most, if not all of these were already said here. I still think the main reason would be the most 'illogical' aspects of it, which is, the desire to show respect, and also, to help to somehow bring comfort to the relatives of the dead.
Now, for why it is like this in the first place, it's just because, like others said and we all know, Faerun and D&D overall is somewhat 'inspired' (I don't think this is the right word though) in medieval Europe. And, in medieval Europe...

Throughout parts of Europe, cremation was forbidden by law, and even punishable by death if combined with Heathen rites. Cremation was sometimes used by authorities as part of punishment for heretics, and this did not only include burning at the stake.
Apparently, cremation was shunned by the dominant religion, since it could relate to rites from other religions, especially with barbarian pagan rituals. So burial became even more of a tradition.
As for why an archmage lord hasn't thought yet about countermeasures or other things, against undead, necromancers and such... I think that firstly, because that'd bring an uproar from the population since it'd go against tradition, and people are so very clingy with tradition, especially when they've been around forever. And secondly, cost-benefit isn't worth it.
Why not worth it? Simple! A very intelligent and powerful archmage knows that the kind of necromancer who raids graveyards is never going to be a problem. I have played necromancers since always, and not once have I gone gravedigging. Valiant heroes are always buried in church crypts with tons of traps and protections and whatnot anyway, so the valuable corpses aren't buried on graveyards to begin with.
The troublesome necromancer is the kind who kills what he wants to animate, instead of wanting for it to die. The kind that slays dragons to turn them into skeletons, that murder heroes to turn them into dread warriors. Not your everyday gravedigger who thinks he will be powerful with a horde of 1HD peasant skeletons, which the archmage can annihilate with the cheapest of his stone golems anyway. Just leave that scum for adventurers and for the city guard. That's why they exist anyway, right?

[cerin616]

The problem is that if you keep a corpse forever, you need more space to keep more corpses. 5000 sqft isn't really that much space to store all the dead from everyone, forever. Or at least the hundred or so years corpses will last underground. In acidic soils or dry soils, corpses can last 1000s of years.

That leads to the inevitable conclusion that you may need more than one hallow spell per graveyard.

Yea i fugred that out from Scow2's post. I interpreted what you said wrong.

I was just making sure Scow knows that more than one hallow can't overlap

[cerin616]

A Tonne of insightful things that I removed to save some space.

Yea, its true what you are saying, but FR doesnt have any religious aspect known as such. I would think that in such a time of undead, people would say "dont worry about respecting my physical form, I would rather just not come back as undead or try to kill you"

[JusticeZero]

Bodies are buried because it is the most efficient way to isolate the living from the health hazards created by rotting corpses. Cremation is, as noted, energy intensive, and leaving bodies out created contagion problems, especially when plague is a concern. Religions often create narratives to explain policy that has evolved when the reason why the policy works is not easy to explain to the people of the time.

The same effect can be seen in the various urban legends and such about modern technology today, really. Eventually such things are just assumed to be religious in origin as people who follow religion X justify unrelated activity Y and come up with reasons why Y is an X-an practice, often assuming that it already is and that they are just hazy on the why.

[cerin616]

Bodies are buried because it is the most efficient way to isolate the living from the health hazards created by rotting corpses. Cremation is, as noted, energy intensive, and leaving bodies out created contagion problems, especially when plague is a concern. Religions often create narratives to explain policy that has evolved when the reason why the policy works is not easy to explain to the people of the time.

The same effect can be seen in the various urban legends and such about modern technology today, really. Eventually such things are just assumed to be religious in origin as people who follow religion X justify unrelated activity Y and come up with reasons why Y is an X-an practice, often assuming that it already is and that they are just hazy on the why.

Truely spoken. And since people at the time had no idea what bacteria were, how its it hard to distinguish that from "oh, god is angry because we aren't burying our dead"

[Scots Dragon]

Thank you! Now the question becomes obtaining the 2ed Lords of Darkness.

It's the first edition version, actually, released 1988.

Non-Evil Undead
The arts of creating and controlling undead are Evil - and, as many have learned to their detriment, very dangerous.

But undead themselves are not always evil. In the Realms, and many other real and fictional lands, there are tales of apparitions that warn the living of hazards such as washed-out bridges and impending disaster. Others provide silent, non-attacking grim reminders of long-ago battle valor, or guard family crypts and the resting places of heroes.

Other undead are of the sorts described in the AD&D® game rules: dangerous monsters that must be fought. There are vampires in the Realms who command small armies of undead, and liches who rule entire cities or underground realms.

But vampires have helped travelers and battlefield survivors. Liches have trained, advised, or chatted amiably with adventurers. Skeletons have marched out of crypts in besieged cities to snatch up children - their descendants - and bear them to safety.

The great paladin Ralgorax, the “Sword of Tyr,” in the dead of night roused the sleeping northern village where he had been born, riding his charger down its streets and banging his great sword against his shield. He warned of an oncoming orc horde - and slew its boldest scouts as the villagers scrambled to gather their belongings and flee.

The next day, after the paladin’s blade had slain many an orc, the full light of day revealed that Ralgorax’s flesh was withered. He bore old death wounds, and the horse beneath him was also carrion. He smiled sadly at their revulsion, saluted, and rode away - into the horde.

Most awesome paladin ever.

[Lord Vukodlak]

A Necromancer isn't going to head to a big city to steal corpses, he's going to go to small towns, villages and other places.

Big City cemeteries always have vistors and with nobles and other such burried there its likely to have guards. So stealing bodies from the cemeteries of Amn is difficult. But stealing the bodies from the cemeteries of the dozens of hamlets around Amn would be easy.

[Coidzor]

There are A LOT of humanoids and Animate Dead skeletons come with weapon proficiency of whatever manufactured weapon their animated with. Good way to get a lot of corpse bowman, and if you're using masses of scrubs, archery is the way to go.

That, and humanoid corpses are easy to get ahold of because they're conveniently stored outside of cities in high density, forever.

My reading was that they lost their class levels and retained the weapon proficiencies that were left after losing class weapon proficiencies. I suppose some could retain the proficiencies from their class. So not much that they're proficient with. The most generous statement I can find is "any weapons mentioned in its entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType)," which gives all skeletons proficiencies in rocks, morningstars, javelins, and scimitars, I suppose. Otherwise it seems to all be applications of Rule 0 either by the designers of individual modules/adventures and by individual DMs.

Then again, most undead will be made from human commoners if they're raiding human graveyards and cemeteries, so it's not that relevant whether base proficiencies are retained.

If you can animate the dead, you're strong enough and have access to the necessary knowledge to get better things than a bunch of schlubs, and the knowledge that a bunch of 1-2 HD schlubs isn't of general interest. The higher level the necromancer, the bigger a glaring issue this becomes. You steal from graveyards either they notice that graves have been disturbed which means bad things or you have to lock down the graveyard which means that once they notice, they really have alarm klaxons going...

Also, unless they're preserved properly, even the skeletons will be reclaimed, so corpses buried in the ground don't last forever. The idea behind that kind of burial is wormfood rather than sealing people up in steel and concrete vaults full of embalming fluids to the point where rather than decaying properly the body liquefies like in "modern" burial. Catacombs would be of more interest, but unless you can just take the bones from whatever body as long as they add up to a complete skeleton, that's not going to fly without some serious sorting and time investment.


Clever. I'm not convinced that corpses disinterred and removed from the Hallowed ground can't be animated, though. The rules merely state that a corpse interred in a Hallowed area cannot be animated as an undead. Presumably, if that corpse is no longer interred in a Hallowed area, it no longer qualifies vs. protection from being animated.

Could go either way. *shrug* This is one area where I'd feel it necessary for the DM to really build his own rules set to plug the gaps and clarify the vagueness of the language of the RAW.


Looking at the Undead Legions of Thay, it is apparent that FR necromancers have many ways of making human undead more powerful. Also, due to the size of the typical crypts in Faerûn, the size of the undead host a group of spellcasters can animate is very, very huge.

I can imagine a group animating the entire corpse collection of Waterdeep's City of the Dead - that would result in an undead army numbering in the tens of millions. According to the fluff, there are already many necromancers working in the bowels of that colossal burial site, and in the same fluff, it is also one of the most heavily protected burial sites on the continent, patrolled day and night by an entire battalion of City Watch soldiers and clerics. Apparently, hallow effects are being removed regularly here.

Is that a publication or are you speaking generally of Thay's undead legions?

I think at least some of that particular fluff can be chalked up to be firmly in the "Writers have no sense of scale" territory and so should be taken with more than a few grains of salt when it comes to thought experiments. You'd have to get up to some crazy CL shenanigans to the point where you wouldn't need the army anymore to get that many, or you'd have so many level 5+ clerics or level 7+ wizards that they'd qualify as enough of an army on their own to do whatever you wanted to do with a ten million strong army of idiots that have to be nursemaided around. It's kind of problematic. :/

[meto30]

I guess most, if not all of these were already said here. I still think the main reason would be the most 'illogical' aspects of it, which is, the desire to show respect, and also, to help to somehow bring comfort to the relatives of the dead.
Now, for why it is like this in the first place, it's just because, like others said and we all know, Faerun and D&D overall is somewhat 'inspired' (I don't think this is the right word though) in medieval Europe. And, in medieval Europe...

Your first reasoning is very satisfactory, and I thank you for it. On the second one, as cerin616 and I have pointed out, Faerûn doesn't have Europe's religious reasons, and unlike RW in FR you can easily raise corpses into undead minions, which makes it disadvantageous to leave a lot of bodies near settlements. Primarily burying the dead inevitably leads to a lot of bodies.


It's the first edition version, actually, released 1988.

Most awesome paladin ever.

Thank you greatly, Narsil! And yes, that is one helluva awesome paladin.



If you can animate the dead, you're strong enough and have access to the necessary knowledge to get better things than a bunch of schlubs, and the knowledge that a bunch of 1-2 HD schlubs isn't of general interest. The higher level the necromancer, the bigger a glaring issue this becomes. You steal from graveyards either they notice that graves have been disturbed which means bad things or you have to lock down the graveyard which means that once they notice, they really have alarm klaxons going...

Could go either way. *shrug* This is one area where I'd feel it necessary for the DM to really build his own rules set to plug the gaps and clarify the vagueness of the language of the RAW.

Is that a publication or are you speaking generally of Thay's undead legions?

I think at least some of that particular fluff can be chalked up to be firmly in the "Writers have no sense of scale" territory and so should be taken with more than a few grains of salt when it comes to thought experiments. You'd have to get up to some crazy CL shenanigans to the point where you wouldn't need the army anymore to get that many, or you'd have so many level 5+ clerics or level 7+ wizards that they'd qualify as enough of an army on their own to do whatever you wanted to do with a ten million strong army of idiots that have to be nursemaided around. It's kind of problematic. :/

Yes, the fluff is inconsistent with the crunch. As I'm taking the fluff over crunch approach, rules that contradict the lore are rewritten. Also, necromancers seem to create more powerful undead when they have access to required raw materials and use the less powerful minions as fodder, so I guess that solves the 'why not use better means' question.

The Thayan undead I was referring to are special undead creatures like the Dread Warriors (Monsters of Faerûn, 3e) which fluff indicates they are created by the Red Wizards. Of course, the particular example of the dread warrior says the particular corpse has to be reanimated within a day of death, but looking at the huge numbers of dread warriors fluff seems to imply Thay possesses, we're either looking at periodic warrior-hunting raids to get fresh corpses (possible, but impractical, and Thay isn't at war that often), or we're looking at situations where the limitation isn't standing in the lore.

Once again, fluff trumps crunch. If FR lore says, contradictory to the conclusions we can derive from crunch, that necromancers typically raise huge hordes of lower level undead which should not be very effective, then my approach is to rewrite the crunch, not the fluff. One solution that I've already made is to remove the material component altogether from Raise Dead. Black pearls can't be that abundant in Faerûn to account for the huge amount of skeleton minions that spellcasters utilize.


Lastly, this discussion is on why Faerûnians bury their dead. ...If I may, I'd like to ask you to return to the said topic.

[zlefin]

I'd say it just has to be one of those don't look too closely cases. Getting the crunch to truly match will just create an endless horde of problems.

They bury their dead so necromancers have something to work with.
Animate dead as written can only work once on a body, so people could just animate every corpse then destroy it immediately to cover it.
You could just as well research a new spell to shield a body from animation forever.
And with the number of high level spell casters in FR, there's just too many other ways to get these things done.

Fluff that was not thought out thoroughly will always have problems unless you rewrite the fluff. Making burial a mandate from the deities would be the simplest method to justify things approximately.

[meto30]

I'd say it just has to be one of those don't look too closely cases. Getting the crunch to truly match will just create an endless horde of problems.

They bury their dead so necromancers have something to work with.
Animate dead as written can only work once on a body, so people could just animate every corpse then destroy it immediately to cover it.
You could just as well research a new spell to shield a body from animation forever.
And with the number of high level spell casters in FR, there's just too many other ways to get these things done.

Fluff that was not thought out thoroughly will always have problems unless you rewrite the fluff. Making burial a mandate from the deities would be the simplest method to justify things approximately.

I believe Mark Hall's answer solves all my problems nicely, with a bit of rework to make it fit with 3.5e lore.

[Mystia]

Your first reasoning is very satisfactory, and I thank you for it. On the second one, as cerin616 and I have pointed out, Faerûn doesn't have Europe's religious reasons, and unlike RW in FR you can easily raise corpses into undead minions, which makes it disadvantageous to leave a lot of bodies near settlements. Primarily burying the dead inevitably leads to a lot of bodies.
You're welcome, I'm glad to be of help. Oh, I'm sorry, though! I meant to add that bit about Europe mostly as a off-lore reason as to why that was probably written in as common thing in Faerûn, though I also wasn't sure about how religions work in FR, so I'm sorry I didn't specify much.


Yea, its true what you are saying, but FR doesnt have any religious aspect known as such. I would think that in such a time of undead, people would say "dont worry about respecting my physical form, I would rather just not come back as undead or try to kill you"

Ah I see, I'm unfamiliar with the religions I'm afraid, I thought maybe something like that could exist. I think you're right, if undead being re-animated from graveyards is a constant threat, people for sure will take that route, it'd simplify everything.
The problem of people not actually thinking that far, or seeing undead invasions as a trivial/distant threat could still exist, I suppose? That, only if they don't result in many casualties, though.

[meto30]

You're welcome, I'm glad to be of help. Oh, I'm sorry, though! I meant to add that bit about Europe mostly as a off-lore reason as to why that was probably written in as common thing in Faerûn, though I also wasn't sure about how religions work in FR, so I'm sorry I didn't specify much.

Ah I see, I'm unfamiliar with the religions I'm afraid, I thought maybe something like that could exist. I think you're right, if undead being re-animated from graveyards is a constant threat, people for sure will take that route, it'd simplify everything.
The problem of people not actually thinking that far, or seeing undead invasions as a trivial/distant threat could still exist, I suppose? That, only if they don't result in many casualties, though.

Some cities (I cite Neverwinter as an example, again) have been the target of several undead incidents lately, and thus should be more wary of necromancers than usual. That still did not stop them from keeping to their old burial method, so my reasoning is that they should have some kind of reason, something beyond mere cultural preference. One particular undead incident nearly destroyed the entire city-state. Therefore I'm introducing Mark Hall's concepts into our campaign.

In 3.5e FR, basically you have one hard rule about the Afterlife: If you have a Patron Deity whose dogma you've adhered to, and whom accepts you as a faithful, then you go to that deity's plane on being judged as Faithful. If for some reason no deity claims you (Faithless) or the patron deity rejects you (False), then you are punished for all eternity by being placed on the Wall of the Faithless, to be soul-crushed to oblivion under the weight of the millions and millions of fellow faithless souls. Resurrection is impossible once the soul is on the Wall. That verdict, once delivered, is considered final.

I've just upped the darkness level to eleven in our particular campaign by reducing the Faithful to Faithless ratio by a huge margin, so that the vast majority of people still end up on the Wall. FR dogmas tend to be specific; if you want to be accepted by a god, then make sure you adhere to all the rules!

[Chambers]

In Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves it mentions some other ways to deal with the dead. Elves can become Revered Ones (religious title) and when they die they go on to Arvandor but can be called back to fight when the elves are threatened.

Other warriors can be buried under trees in the Cormanthor forest and become a treant. Female elves can go through a ritual performed at death that turns them into a dryad or nymph.

[meto30]

In Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves it mentions some other ways to deal with the dead. Elves can become Revered Ones (religious title) and when they die they go on to Arvandor but can be called back to fight when the elves are threatened.

Other warriors can be buried under trees in the Cormanthor forest and become a treant. Female elves can go through a ritual performed at death that turns them into a dryad or nymph.

Yes, elves seem to be much less vulnerable to necromancy invasions in FR. Well, I guess having multiple millenia worth of history to their advantage is very nice indeed. Humans get the blunt end of the deal most of the time, but that apparently doesn't stop them from being the dominant race of the era... perhaps by virtue of sheer population? :D



I'd say the main reason that the FR people bury their dead is because you generally need a complete body for most Resurrection magic. Sure odds are it's not going to happen, but everybody is holding out for some high level caster to come along with some free diamonds to bring everybody back. Or that a deity of life and healing might decide to go for a stroll in the local boneyard.

It's the FR after all, weirder things happen there on a regular basis. :smallamused:

Well, this being FR, I find myself in the uncomfortable position of wanting to but being incapable of countering that argument! XD

[CRtwenty]

I'd say the main reason that the FR people bury their dead is because you generally need a complete body for most Resurrection magic. Sure odds are it's not going to happen, but everybody is holding out for some high level caster to come along with some free diamonds to bring everybody back. Or that a deity of life and healing might decide to go for a stroll in the local boneyard.

It's the FR after all, weirder things happen there on a regular basis. :smallamused:

[CRtwenty]

Yes, elves seem to be much less vulnerable to necromancy invasions in FR. Well, I guess having multiple millenia worth of history to their advantage is very nice indeed. Humans get the blunt end of the deal most of the time, but that apparently doesn't stop them from being the dominant race of the era... perhaps by virtue of sheer population? :D

Well that and the other races have the tendency to blow themselves up regularly. Humans do too of course, but their populations are able to rebound pretty quickly. So I'd say that yes, it is by virtue of population and the fact that Humans breed like rabbits in FR.


Well, this being FR, I find myself in the uncomfortable position of wanting to but being incapable of countering that argument! XD

The Forgotten Realms. Where "A Wizard did it" isn't a joke, but an actual explanation for everything.

[Marnath]

Really, page three and no one has mentioned it? Guys, the original Gods of the dead in this setting (Jergal and then Myrkul, I think?) were pro-necromancy. The priesthood of the God of Death controls burial rites in basically all of Faerun, and so for the longest period of history the people in charge of disposing of the dead had good incentive to specifically go out of their way to make necromancy easy. Kelemvor is different, but his church doesn't have the numbers or the influence to overturn thousands of years of traditions which dictate that the dead must be buried in conveniently located collections.


Doesn't Hallow only last for a year each time? The rider effect you can add only lasts one year at least. Even if Hallow itself is permanent, the text itself states that Hallow can be recast in the same spot, since that is the procedure for renewing the rider effect you attached to it.

[meto30]

Really, page three and no one has mentioned it? Guys, the original Gods of the dead in this setting (Jergal and then Myrkul, I think?) were pro-necromancy. The priesthood of the God of Death controls burial rites in basically all of Faerun, and so for the longest period of history the people in charge of disposing of the dead had good incentive to specifically go out of their way to make necromancy easy. Kelemvor is different, but his church doesn't have the numbers or the influence to overturn thousands of years of traditions which dictate that the dead must be buried in conveniently located collections.


Doesn't Hallow only last for a year each time? The rider effect you can add only lasts one year at least. Even if Hallow itself is permanent, the text itself states that Hallow can be recast in the same spot, since that is the procedure for renewing the rider effect you attached to it.

That is one oversight I cannot be forgiven for. Thank you for pointing that out! Myrkul in particular would want all those bodies preserved for future reanimation. Thank you again, it is a very effective and satisfactory explanation! And one I can use to a very deliberate advantage.

[jedipotter]

So, my question is, is there some canon reason why burial is prevalent? If not, what might be that reason? Some continent-wide silly belief that burial is required for safe passage to the Fugue plane? (might make sense in that those huge cemeteries are mostly human-made, and humans tend to be superstitious in FR). Perhaps some unsafe side results of cremation and other funeral processes (such as wraiths forming from cremated bodies)? What do you think?

Why would you think burial was common? Cemeteries don't automatically equal dead bodies(after all us 21st century people often bury empty coffins...) So that makes cemeteries more of just 'memory markers' then 'places with dead bodies'. To bury a body, by hand, is a lot of work. You might note that lots of people that died before say 1900 were not buried.

The 'burn the corpse' is just as common as burial. I'm sure that most of northern Fareun has no choice but to do it this way. Digging a man sized hole is hard enough, but doing it on frozen ground....forget it.

Also there are spells to protect corpses:
Burial BlessingBy means of this spell, the cleric wards a corpse from evil influences and effects.
Unless the corpse is desecrated or the blessing is countered, the corpse cannot be magically animated or rise as an undead minion (a ghoul or vampire, for example).

And Hollow, of course.


You can also look at a Cemetery like a bank. It is a risk to ''put all your money in one place''. But the answer to that is easy, the money is in a vault. Cemeteries would be the same. Places where a corpse would be protected, both by guards and magic.

And for a last note: Waterdeep. You might want to note that a lot of the crypts, tombs ann such in the City of the Dead don't have corpses in them. Lots of Waterdeeps dead is deposed in to portals to other places......

[Dimers]

The priesthood of the God of Death controls burial rites in basically all of Faerun, and so for the longest period of history the people in charge of disposing of the dead had good incentive to specifically go out of their way to make necromancy easy.

Wh ...

*foreheadsmack* :smallsigh: I knew that. :smallredface:

You win a thread! :smallcool:

[meto30]

Why would you think burial was common? Cemeteries don't automatically equal dead bodies(after all us 21st century people often bury empty coffins...) So that makes cemeteries more of just 'memory markers' then 'places with dead bodies'. To bury a body, by hand, is a lot of work. You might note that lots of people that died before say 1900 were not buried.

The 'burn the corpse' is just as common as burial. I'm sure that most of northern Fareun has no choice but to do it this way. Digging a man sized hole is hard enough, but doing it on frozen ground....forget it.

Also there are spells to protect corpses:
Burial BlessingBy means of this spell, the cleric wards a corpse from evil influences and effects.
Unless the corpse is desecrated or the blessing is countered, the corpse cannot be magically animated or rise as an undead minion (a ghoul or vampire, for example).

And Hollow, of course.


You can also look at a Cemetery like a bank. It is a risk to ''put all your money in one place''. But the answer to that is easy, the money is in a vault. Cemeteries would be the same. Places where a corpse would be protected, both by guards and magic.

And for a last note: Waterdeep. You might want to note that a lot of the crypts, tombs ann such in the City of the Dead don't have corpses in them. Lots of Waterdeeps dead is deposed in to portals to other places......

And all those portals are located in the City of the Dead. Basically they are all extradimensional wings of the main complex.

I don't know how many times I'm saying this, but given the abundance of cases where necromancers or clerics do raise a lot of undead from typical crypts all across the continent, the crypts do contain a very large supply of bodies, and those supposedly permanent countermeasures to reanimation are either nonexistent or don't work as in RAW. While I do understand this can be an unreasonable request, please do read the posts before replying, because I'd prefer to not repeat the same point over and over again.

[CRtwenty]

I don't know how many times I'm saying this, but given the abundance of cases where necromancers or clerics do raise a lot of undead from typical crypts all across the continent, the crypts do contain a very large supply of bodies, and those supposedly permanent countermeasures to reanimation are either nonexistent or don't work as in RAW.

Most of the places you usually find Necromancers are either crypts and tombs that are so remote that nobody comes out to maintain them anymore, so all the warding spells have expired. Or places where the poor and such bury their dead, and are thus ignored by most of the populace.

You never see undead rising in well tended crypts under good aligned temples and stuff, unless somebody's trying to rob um and those weird tomb guardian undead pop out. Necromancers aren't stupid, they're going to go to places that don't have wards, which require constant maintenance to keep up. Luckily with Faerun's bloody history, there's no shortage of forgotten crypts and battlefields.

[Chambers]

Have you considered the population size of necromancers capable of raising the dead? If the expected number of necromancers in any town/city is low enough that the guard/clergy think they can handle them by themselves then I don't see why they would institute a mass reform of burial customs.

In other words instead of looking at the population of the food source try also looking at the population of the predators.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Politics.
The occasional low level undead infestation is actually good for anti-undead churches.

They can have their newby clerics get some firsthand experience and convert worshippers by showing that they're the ones who help protect the populace
and that they are needed (so people tithe more). There's practically no downsides to a few commoner zombies rising up now and then.

The undead they'd want to prevent are the strong ones that are actually a threat and none of those are created in some small town graveyard.

Edit: typo :smallredface:

[Mystia]

Some cities (I cite Neverwinter as an example, again) have been the target of several undead incidents lately, and thus should be more wary of necromancers than usual. That still did not stop them from keeping to their old burial method, so my reasoning is that they should have some kind of reason, something beyond mere cultural preference. One particular undead incident nearly destroyed the entire city-state. Therefore I'm introducing Mark Hall's concepts into our campaign.

In 3.5e FR, basically you have one hard rule about the Afterlife: If you have a Patron Deity whose dogma you've adhered to, and whom accepts you as a faithful, then you go to that deity's plane on being judged as Faithful. If for some reason no deity claims you (Faithless) or the patron deity rejects you (False), then you are punished for all eternity by being placed on the Wall of the Faithless, to be soul-crushed to oblivion under the weight of the millions and millions of fellow faithless souls. Resurrection is impossible once the soul is on the Wall. That verdict, once delivered, is considered final.

I've just upped the darkness level to eleven in our particular campaign by reducing the Faithful to Faithless ratio by a huge margin, so that the vast majority of people still end up on the Wall. FR dogmas tend to be specific; if you want to be accepted by a god, then make sure you adhere to all the rules!

I see... Indeed, in such a situation, unless there's a really good reason for that, the population and the government would want to take a few countermeasures to try to prevent that from happening. I'm guessing that Marnath found out what that reason is, it seems :smalltongue: but otherwise I'd really fail to see more reasons for it.

But I'm actually very impressed with how brutally afterlife actually works in Faerûn, especially with the thing abbout going to the Wall of the Faithless and so. Now, please just let me praise you for that decision on making it even more grimdark. I think it's an amazing idea, deciding to make one have to follow their deity's dogma to the letter to be able to secure a spot for them in their plane. Especially that it gives death actual meaning, and not something to be brushed aside with Resurrection magic. Ah, also, thanks for explaining this bit of lore for me!

edit: fixing my silly grammar.

[hamishspence]

In standard 3rd ed Faerun, the False don't go into the Wall of the Faithless- instead they're "punished according to their crimes for all eternity" in Kelemvor's city.

[meto30]

In standard 3rd ed Faerun, the False don't go into the Wall of the Faithless- instead they're "punished according to their crimes for all eternity" in Kelemvor's city.

Oh, yes, I forgot that one detail. But given the size of the Crystal City, which is large but not that large, they're probably disposing of old False souls pretty fast.

And in our campaign, the False aren't treated any better than the Faithless. As I said, IMO FR deserves to be darker.


But I'm actually very impressed with how brutally afterlife actually works in Faerûn, especially with the thing about going to the Wall of the Faithless and so. Now, please just let me praise you for that decision on making it even more grimdark. I think it's an amazing idea, deciding to make one have to follow their deity's dogma to the letter to be able to secure a spot for them in their plane. Especially that it gives death actual meaning, and not something to be brushed aside with Resurrection magic. Ah, also, thanks for explaining this bit of lore for me!

edit: fixing my silly grammar.

It's become a bit better now that Kelemvor's ruling in the City of Judgment, but in the olden days, when the Fugue Plane, the FR plane where all dead mortal souls go to be judged, was held by Myrkul, the previous deity of the dead, the plane has been noted as one of the most horrific places in the multiverse. The millions, perhaps billions of souls being crushed in the Wall of the Faithless (which serves the City of Judgment as its perimeter wall) would be constantly screaming, resulting in a continuous cacophony that reminds all arriving souls what the city exists for. The wall is a testimony to the supreme authority of the divine over the mundane, to the single ultimate law of the multiverse: that faith saves, and lack of it condemns.

Belated Disclaimer: I might be portraying FR a bit darker than it actually is, because dark is just the way I like FR. XD

[Mystral]

It's obvious. The reason the dead are still buried is so that the necromancers have zombies and skeletons to raise and don't have to get creative. By giving the necromancers access to undead that are easier to raise, but also with known countermeasures, they stop the bad guys from creating ash undead or crocidile poo undead (lol), or, even worse, create the corpses themselves.

[Coidzor]

Lastly, this discussion is on why Faerûnians bury their dead. ...If I may, I'd like to ask you to return to the said topic.

The actual threat posed by them is, in point of fact, incredibly relevant.