Miranda Daggerstorm (Feat Question, 3.PF)

[Hyde]

Miranda Daggerstorm is a rogue/invisible blade, specializing in daggers and the throwing therof. She wants to know: What's the interaction between Two-weapon fighting, Rapid-shot, and a full round of attacks in which daggers are stabbed into things and thrown at other things (or maybe the same thing, it doesn't really matter). Can she use both feat trees (and quick draw, etc.) to just get an absurd amount of attacks?

(I have access to pretty much everything that exists for both 3.5 and PF in building this character)

[Slipperychicken]

If by "absurd number" you mean "two more than normal", then yes. However, to get them, she will need at least 5 feats (TWF, PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Quick Draw), get a full attack in, attack with daggers in both hands, throw at least one of them, and still take a -4 penalty on every attack.

I think it's possible, but not quite worth it optimization-wise. Should be fine for a low op environment though.

[Nerd-o-rama]

If by "absurd number" you mean "two more than normal", then yes. However, to get them, she will need at least 5 feats (TWF, PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Quick Draw), get a full attack in, attack with daggers in both hands, throw at least one of them, and still take a -4 penalty on every attack.

I think it's possible, but not quite worth it optimization-wise. Should be fine for a low op environment though.

Extra iterative attacks with Sneak Attack attached are nothing to sneeze at in terms of damage per round, especially if she has a buff to her attack roll. This is going to go through a lot of knives, though. Does Pathfinder Returning give you the weapon back immediately, or does it wait until the end of the round like 3.5? If the latter, doing this with magic weapons is going to get expensive.

EDIT again: Teleporting has the same limitations are returning, it just doesn't physically fly back. Never mind.

[Baroncognito]

Extra iterative attacks with Sneak Attack attached are nothing to sneeze at in terms of damage per round, especially if she has a buff to her attack roll. This is going to go through a lot of knives, though. Does Pathfinder Returning give you the weapon back immediately, or does it wait until the end of the round like 3.5? If the latter, doing this with magic weapons is going to get expensive.

You'd need one returning knife for every attack you make in a round.

[Dusk Eclipse]

See if your DM will allow you to have a pair of gloves of endless daggers, instead of glove of endless javelins, it solves the munition problem quite nicely (you might still want a pair of normally enchanted daggers to fight in melee though)

[Turion]

See if your DM will allow you to have a pair of gloves of endless daggers, instead of glove of endless javelins, it solves the munition problem quite nicely (you might still want a pair of normally enchanted daggers to fight in melee though)

Since it's 3.PF, that's actually a thing. MiC p.101, gauntlet of infinite blades. Infinite daggers, plus you can expend charges to get Nice Things. Roughly 6000gp.

To break down the attack line, after BAB 11:
Three attacks from BAB
Three attacks from the TWF line
One from Rapid Shot
One from haste, if present and dependent on reading.
For a total of 8 attacks. +7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/-3/-3 after penalties, before item/stat adjustments.
As noted before, all attacks are made at a -4 penalty.

Also, if you don't go with the gauntlet, (or your DM allows combined items) gloves of the balanced hand would be a good investment. You do lose out on one attack (from greater twf), but it's the one least likely to hit, and you save two feats.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The gloves are strictly superior since they have a free action activatio, while the gauntlet have swift action activation abd thus restricted to 1 dagger per round.

[Turion]

The gloves are strictly superior since they have a free action activatio, while the gauntlet have swift action activation abd thus restricted to 1 dagger per round.

Well now don't I feel stupid. :smallredface:
Nice catch; can't believe I missed that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Don't be, it can happen to all of us.

[Hyde]

Cool. Well, turns out Rapid shot doesn't quite work like I thought (It is effectively TWF for ranged attacks, but then it doesn't go bigger as BAB increases).

Still, a feat (or two) for an extra attack in a round isn't awful.

Not super sure how I want to take her, now.

[Hyde]

Different Question. Quick draw being what it is.... nevermind, I think I answered my own question.

(goes to look up the fleshgrinding weapon property).

[Slipperychicken]

Extra iterative attacks with Sneak Attack attached are nothing to sneeze at in terms of damage per round, especially if she has a buff to her attack roll. This is going to go through a lot of knives, though. Does Pathfinder Returning give you the weapon back immediately, or does it wait until the end of the round like 3.5? If the latter, doing this with magic weapons is going to get expensive.

EDIT again: Teleporting has the same limitations are returning, it just doesn't physically fly back. Never mind.

Yeah, it should be fine damage-wise if Miranda can boost her attack rolls enough to compensate. There's still the concern of qualifying for ranged sneak attacks in the first place.

[gr8artist]

I see nothing in TWF that would indicate that it doesn't work with ranged weapons, or stack with Rapid Shot.

On an interesting side note, I think the most attacks I got in a round was using a PF Ninja/3.5 Master Thrower/PF fighter with potions of haste and greater invisibility.
Lvl 12, BAB was +11 with 2d6 SA
Iterative 3, Haste 1, Rapid Shot 1, Ninja trick (2 extra shuriken/round) 2, TWF tree (2 feats) 2, and the palm throw trick for 2 shurikens with each atk roll.
They were all poisoned (DC 18). His full attack was 9 rolls, 9 SA, and 18 doses of poison. Oh, and the master thrower levels let him target touch AC. And enemies adjacent to each other. So, yeah.

[Slipperychicken]

palm throw trick for 2 shurikens with each atk roll

Are you talking about the Ninja Trick Flurry of Stars? That one only adds two attacks to the full-attack, it doesn't double your attacks. Wait, I'm thinking of the wrong thing, nevermind.

[Perseus]

You'd need one returning knife for every attack you make in a round.

This is why 4e returning property is so fun, you throw a dagger and it hurts the enemy, bounces back to you, then you throw it again.

I totally refluffed a returning dagger as a yo-yo like this.

My next DM who was a player in the game with the yoyo-king allowed returning to work in the 3.5 game like it does in 4e....

Tons of fun :p

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah, it should be fine damage-wise if Miranda can boost her attack rolls enough to compensate. There's still the concern of qualifying for ranged sneak attacks in the first place.

Well, with surprise, initiative, and this number of attacks, she'll probably kill at least something in the enemy group before it loses flat-footedness unless she flubs her init or several of her attack rolls.

For combat staying power, she'd want to either close to melee for flanking after her initial barrage or invest in a Ring of Invisibility until she's high enough level to get HiPS.

[Diarmuid]

In a surprise round you're only going to get a single attack, and then winning intiative would indeed get you a full attack's worth of attacks, but this is also assuming you're within 30' of your opponent. And if you're 30' away, then all your attacks are going to be at an additional -4 for range penalties.

[Hyde]

I am so excited about this character I might not get to play for a year. It's funny.

Thanks a lot for the input guys! Currently, Miranda's looking at becoming more arcane trickster- spell storing daggers are scary stuff. I need to see if the targeted spells (if they require an attack roll) would also qualify for sneak attack. probably not, because it explicitly says the weapons do the casting.

Not super sure about fleshgrinding, though.

[Slipperychicken]

Thanks a lot for the input guys! Currently, Miranda's looking at becoming more arcane trickster- spell storing daggers are scary stuff. I need to see if the targeted spells (if they require an attack roll) would also qualify for sneak attack. probably not, because it explicitly says the weapons do the casting.


Sneak attack applies to "weaponlike spells" IIRC. Those which require an attack roll to hit and deal damage (like rays and acid splash) benefit from Sneak Attack damage dice.

[Feint's End]

Don't use returning ... use teleporting instead. Similar effect for the same cost and strictly better.

Also some suggestions since I worked on a thrower build recently:
-with Masterthrower you can throw 2 weapons with every attack for effectively double the sneak attack damage (you only loose the strength damage)
-add splitting for another double of attacks (I'd use Splitting teleporting Adamant weapons)
-from an op point it might be smarter to use shuriken since those come in packs of five (though you have to talk to your dm about how teleporting works on them since they are technically ammunition) so if it works favourably you can get 5 throwing daggers for the price of 1 (just refluff them as small daggers).

[Hyde]

Don't use returning ... use teleporting instead. Similar effect for the same cost and strictly better.

Also some suggestions since I worked on a thrower build recently:
-with Masterthrower you can throw 2 weapons with every attack for effectively double the sneak attack damage (you only loose the strength damage)
-add splitting for another double of attacks (I'd use Splitting teleporting Adamant weapons)
-from an op point it might be smarter to use shuriken since those come in packs of five (though you have to talk to your dm about how teleporting works on them since they are technically ammunition) so if it works favourably you can get 5 throwing daggers for the price of 1 (just refluff them as small daggers).
I could see dipping a single level for palm throw.

[Diarmuid]

Palm Throw invokes the Volley rules and only one of the 2 daggers thrown will gain the benefit of the precision (Sneak Attack) damage.

I'm honestly not sure how a spell storing weapon that discharges a spell requiring an attack roll would be handled. The enchantment specifically reads:



Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires.


This states that the weapon is casting the spell, but doesnt account for what the weapon's roll to hit with the spell would be.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I am 100% sure that the stored spell automatically hits the target (which then gets a save and SR if appropriate). Even if they left it out of the RAW, surely we have already established that the weapon is touching the target when the initial attack succeeds.

However, I am almost equally sure that the stored spell would not add sneak attack damage, even if it is targeted. The rule of thumb is that you only get to add sneak attack or critical damage once per attack roll, as referenced in feats like (regular) Manyshot compared to Improved Manyshot.

So a sneak attack with a spell-storing dagger, if the spell was triggered, would be (dagger damage)+(sneak attack damage)+(spell damage).


In a surprise round you're only going to get a single attack, and then winning intiative would indeed get you a full attack's worth of attacks, but this is also assuming you're within 30' of your opponent. And if you're 30' away, then all your attacks are going to be at an additional -4 for range penalties.

Thank Gygax I have a combat-indifferent DM who usually forgets that. The unfortunate thing is that sometimes I forget it too.

Even then, the one barrage is a pretty good damage multiplier. Definitely be prepared for immediate melee afterward though.

[Diarmuid]

NoR, do you have a rules citation on the spell stored weapon auto-hitting with spells it casts?

Ether way, the spell would certainly not get sneak attack damage. By RAW not because of the single precision damage rules but more because per RAW the spell-storing weapon is casting the spell and the weapon doesnt have the Sneak Attack class ability (in most cases, yes I'm sure someone has created a sentient dagger than can Sneak Attack on it's own).

[Nerd-o-rama]

NoR, do you have a rules citation on the spell stored weapon auto-hitting with spells it casts?

Ether way, the spell would certainly not get sneak attack damage. By RAW not because of the single precision damage rules but more because per RAW the spell-storing weapon is casting the spell and the weapon doesnt have the Sneak Attack class ability (in most cases, yes I'm sure someone has created a sentient dagger than can Sneak Attack on it's own).

This is why I don't come to this forum. I just take things like "the dagger that is currently stuck in an enemy's torso casting a spell is probably going to hit that enemy without needing a roll" for granted, and no one else here does. There are a lot of ways the rules could have been less ambiguous about it, I admit, the favored one in later sourcebooks being the clause "as part of an attack".

[Hyde]

Isn't there a feat that basically reads "if two allies are flanking an enemy, then you are also flanking that enemy", or was that only 4.0?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Isn't there a feat that basically reads "if two allies are flanking an enemy, then you are also flanking that enemy", or was that only 4.0?

Well, the Shadow Hand stance Island of Blades does something similar, and you can get it with a feat at ECL3 (or ECL 2, assuming a bonus feat at ECL2).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, the Shadow Hand stance Island of Blades does something similar, and you can get it with a feat at ECL3 (or ECL 2, assuming a bonus feat at ECL2).

Needs a level of Swordsage or two feats, though.

[Fitz10019]

Isn't there a feat that basically reads "if two allies are flanking an enemy, then you are also flanking that enemy", or was that only 4.0?

I don't know of one, but even so, 'flanking' does not apply to ranged attacks without an explicit exception.

You want to pursue making/keeping the enemy 'flat-footed'/'loses Dex to AC' for your ranged attacks. With those spell-storing daggers, look for spells that blind and stun.
Glitterdust, Electric Loop...