Rolling checks for your players

[tim01300]

I've read before about DMs rolling certain checks for their players, like spot checks. Lately when I ask for spot checks and my group sees nothing they "just happen" to then start casting mage armor and other long duration buffs. When I told them I was thinking of rolling their spot checks ahead of time to prevent this one of them got very upset saying whats the point of playing if I roll for them blah blah blah.

But later the group missed a murderer because noone did a sense motive check or anything while he was talking to them, and this time they were upset I didn't tell them to make a check. I feel that once again If I tell them to make a sense motive check or roll against someones bluff that they will meta game it too hard.

So what I'm asking is what skill rolls do other DMs make for their players?

[Alex12]

I've read before about DMs rolling certain checks for their players, like spot checks. Lately when I ask for spot checks and my group sees nothing they "just happen" to then start casting mage armor and other long duration buffs. When I told them I was thinking of rolling their spot checks ahead of time to prevent this one of them got very upset saying whats the point of playing if I roll for them blah blah blah.

But later the group missed a murderer because noone did a sense motive check or anything while he was talking to them, and this time they were upset I didn't tell them to make a check. I feel that once again If I tell them to make a sense motive check or roll against someones bluff that they will meta game it too hard.

So what I'm asking is what skill rolls do other DMs make for their players?

Have them make Spot checks (and other such checks) even when there's nothing there, or at least nothing meaningful.
Watch them get more and more paranoid as they prepare for the ambush or trap that never comes.

[lycantrope]

If the players insist on rolling their own spot checks amd using that for metagaming purposes, just have them roll spot checks randomly until they realize that it wont always mean danger is afoot. It may sound mean, but its a legitimate tool to prevent out of character actions.

Personally, I like delegating as much dice rolling as possible to players. I call for spot and listen just because of the nature of the mechanic, but sense motive? I assume no roll means they believe every word the npc is saying, so theres no reason for me to give anything away with a secret bluff roll.

All that said, it really.depends on the group. I call out their metagaming, but they call it out themselves as well, sometimes taking back actions because they catch themselves acting as players rather than characters. Some groups may not feel the same way, and its really the main role of a dm to cater to them a fun experience, with all the associated risks. If they like metagaming, and everyone is.on board, roll with it and throw them encounters that both let metagaming serve as an advantage and disadvantage. Play to their expectations and them subvert them. Its fundamentally an identical approach to using tropes for a great story driven game, but just uses mechanics instead of artistic twists.

[Kudaku]

Ask each player to give you their modifier to Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and any other skills you might want them to not know the result of.

Then ask each player to roll 10 d20s and write down each result.

Finally, combine the notes. - you now have 10 rolls from each player and can freely add whatever modifier you need to see what their result was - and if you occasionally stop to read your notes there's no reason your players will know you're checking to see if they made a sense motive check.

For example:
Alejandro the bard has a list with the following rolls:
15, 4, 12, 17, 9.

His listen is +2, his spot is +3, his hide is +5, and his sense motive is +12.

Alejandro walks down the street and needs to roll a Listen check to realize he is being followed by a pack of street thugs. His result is a 15 with a +2 modifier for a total of 17, Alejandro realizes he's being followed and decides to duck into an alley and hide. His result is a 4 with a +5 modifier for a total of 9. Alejandro is spotted and fights for his life (and survives).

Alejandro then stops a squad of city guards and explains that he was attacked in broad daylight, complaining about the lack of safety in the town. He needs to make a Sense Motive check to realize that the guards ignore the muggings for a share of the ill-gotten profit - his sense motive check is 12, with a +12 modifier for a total of 24 versus the guard's bluff check of 19. Alejandro realizes something is amiss, and that the guards are trying to hide something from him.

The benefit of this solution is that you're still using the player's rolls - you're not "taking away their fun". That said, I'd also use this sparingly. Only use this method if there are rolls where the players really should not know the result.

[Gavinfoxx]

You know they can Take 10 on spot, right? And they know it too?

[RogueDM]

One of the things I routinely do is take down a lot of the common "passive checks" as well as saves and such. Then I just ask players to roll "a d20" without them knowing what its for. Could have been spot, listen, will save. They may roll a 1 and know they failed... something, but then I augment this strategy with rolls to spot or hear irrelevant things. Now my players just curse when they get an "Okay, moving on" in response to a die roll.

[Khedrac]

Ask each player to give you their modifier to Spot, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and any other skills you might want them to not know the result of.

Then ask each player to roll 10 d20s and write down each result.

Finally, combine the notes. - you now have 10 rolls from each player and can freely add whatever modifier you need to see what their result was - and if you occasionally stop to read your notes there's no reason your players will know you're checking to see if they made a sense motive check.
This is what I usually do. I will have to remember to ask the players if they want to take 10 on spot check though.

As for Sense Motive - that should be rolled by the DM anyway, though I will use one of the player's rolls for that if I have some.

[PersonMan]

I just assume that everyone takes 10 on Spot, Listen and Sense Motive unless they do otherwise.

[Big Fau]

Just a note: If the players insist on rolling their own Spot/Listen checks, inform them that it costs actions to do so. IIRC it's a Move action. Passive checks (taking 10/DM Rolling) won't require an action.

[BWR]

If your players metagame to that extent and then whine about how you are trying to stop them cheating, point out that what they are doing is cheating, that you don't like it and they should just be glad you aren't doing anything worse to them for such blatant disregard for the setting.

[Dimers]

So what I'm asking is what skill rolls do other DMs make for their players?

All knowledge and sensory rolls. Actually what I generally do, after getting my players to agree, is roll a whole bunch of d20s before a game starts and write them down, then apply them in order as they're needed, for any sensory or knowledge check. Since I'm just looking at a screen or a piece of paper, there's no rolling sound to alert the players that something is happening. And I don't have to make false checks just to keep the players paranoid.

[Boci]

Just a note: If the players insist on rolling their own Spot/Listen checks, inform them that it costs actions to do so. IIRC it's a Move action. Passive checks (taking 10/DM Rolling) won't require an action.

Or don't, that's a horrible rule. It needlessly creates an artificial divide between spot and listen checks rolled by the DM vs. those rolled by the players, as in game-wise the two should the exact same thing.

[tim01300]

I think I am going to try the having them roll ahead of time, they still get to do their own rolling but keeps my surprises hidden. Thanks guys