3.5 In Terms of Healing, is this Broken? [Updated, PEACH?]

[INoKnowNames]

I'm having a friendly conversation with one of my Dms about a few abilities I'm taking, and the subject of what is and isn't too strong when it comes to healing came up. So I felt like making a thread, and asking what you guys think of it.

How broken is this feat for the sake of healing? (http://dndtools.eu/feats/players-guide-to-eberron--13/mastery-of-day-and-night--1897/)


Mastery of Day and Night
( Player's Guide to Eberron, p. 125)

[General]


You have learned to calculate the precise locations of Irian and Mabar at any given time, and to use that knowledge to enhance your manipulation of positive and negative energy.

Prerequisite

Maximize Spell (PH) , Knowledge (the planes) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks,


Benefit

You can spontaneously apply the effect of the Maximize Spell metamagic feat to any cure or inflict spell you cast. Doing this has no effect on the spell's level or casting time.

Is this broken at Level 3 (the earliest one could take it) on a healing focused character?

What if said character found a similar effect to also take on Empowered (about level 10ish)?

What if said character found a way to make this apply to everyone within 30 ft. (maybe with a few Rods of Chain Spell or a different feature)?

And lastly, compare such a character to a Divine Metamagic abusing Cleric? Does Lesser Vigor or its variants or other buffs, all day every day off of one spell (but eating several uses of Turn Undead) beat the above? Or is the above more broken?

Maybe I should be entirely honest. I'm building a support Cleric for a 'stalt game. The Cleric is going Healing Hand (of Mishakal), alongside a Sorc going War Weaver, with the restriction on Divine Spells being cast through the Weave lifted.

So think about it more this way:

ECL 3+: Maximized Cure Spells.
ECL 7: Maximized + Cha Mod Cure Spells.
ECL 8: Maximized + Cha Mod Cure Spells to all within Touch Range (only Light Wounds)
ECL 9: The same, but Moderate Wounds, too.
ECL 10: Maximized Empowered + Cha Cure Wounds to all in Touch Range up to Cure Serious.
ECL 11: The same, but Cure Critical, too.
ECL 12: Now the same, but up to 30 ft. away, too.

I was also planning on throwing in that Initiate Feat that lets any hitpoints that heal over convert to temporary hit points, rather than be wasted. And then there's another ceremonial feat that lets cure spells healing a few other minor conditions, too.

In a Gestalt Campaign, how broken would this be? And what would you be expecting a Divine Metamagic Cleric // X (any prestige classes or side class to 'stalt, I suppose) to be like in comparison? I've been under the assumption that with the right Metamagic abuse and turn undead ability stacking, that one should be more worried about -dealing- 300+ damage at mid levels, rather than being able to heal about 100 or so.

And then that Divine Metamagic Persist for Vigor still tops this combo while using less resources. The former takes up a feat to qualify for War Weaver, a feat to qualify for Healing Hand, 2 feats to get the Maximize Spells off, and 2 more feats for the 2 additional features, and still spends a spell every time they want to do this. 6 Total, +1 Spell Per Use.

Meanwhile, Extend Spell can be gotten as a bonus feat, requiring only 2 more feats and whatever level of Turn Undead Optimization you want to use, which can be set to be -very- high, lasts all day, and can also be used on other spells that enable you to become outright Godly as opposed to just ignoring hit points once you've won a fight.

How wrong am I?

I would appreciate feedback in this situation, just to help put my Dm at ease. I actually choose this strategy because I thought it would be capable of contributing to a party, but not game breaking.

[Boci]

The wording seems to imply that the level increase is not negated, so no it isn't broken. If the increased level was negated, still wouldn't be broken (even with the further points), because on the off chance you manage to outpace a monster's damage with your healing, you're still using a daily resource to do so. And there are other ways monsters can hurt PCs than HP damage.

[Flickerdart]

The difference between a CMW and Maximized CMW at level 3 is between 21 and avg. 12. Now here are some CR3 monster damage outputs per round:
Ogre - 2d8+7, avg. 16
Ogre Zombie - 2d8+9, avg. 18
Ghast - 1d8+3 and two 1d4+1, avg. 14.5
Deinonychus - 1d8+4 and two 1d3+2 and 2d4+2, avg 24.5
Unicorn - 1d8+8 and two 1d4+2, avg. 21.5
Dire Wolf - 1d8+10, avg. 14.5

A maximized CMW is barely good enough to keep up with a bunch of these guys, and a regular CMW is never enough. This feat is good, but it brings a crap spell up to a level where it matters, rather than making anything OP.


The wording seems to imply that the level increase is not negated, so no it isn't broken. If the increased level was negated, still wouldn't be broken (even with the further points), because on the off chance you manage to outpace a monster's damage with your healing, you're still using a daily resource to do so. And there are other ways monsters can hurt PCs than HP damage.
"Doing so has no effect on the spell's level", it's right in there.

[Boci]

"Doing so has no effect on the spell's level", it's right in there.

Weird, I only saw the bit about casting time when I first read it.

[erikun]

Your healing-focused character is either going to be healing 1d8+3 HP (average 7.5 HP) or 2d8+3 HP (average 10 HP). This feat increases the HP healed up to 11 HP and 19 HP, respectively.

At 10th level with a free empowerment, you're looking at:
1d8+5 (avg 9.5) against 13+1d8/2 (avg 15.25)
2d8+10 (avg 17) against 26+1d8 (avg 30.5)
3d8+10 (avg 20.5) against 34+3d8/2 (avg 40.25)
4d8+10 (avg 24) against 42+2d8 (avg 51)

This may seem like a lot, but healing is rather underpowered. A 3rd level character can easily be dealing 16 damage a hit if they want to. The difference between 7 HP and 11 HP is minor, and between 10 HP and 19 HP will generally only be a single (weak) attack.

"Free" empowered and "free" maximized healing spells may seem like a lot, with doubling the amount you could heal when both are applied, but you're giving up two feats to do so. That's two feats that could go towards something like Divine Metamagic itself (which is far more useful) or to qualifying for the Radiant Servant prestige class, which gets the same for free as well.

Persisted Vigor is far, far better than Empowered Maximized Cure Wounds spells. Persisted Vigor is basically fast healing; any HP damage that does not need to be healed in combat is recovered. Even with the 1st level Lesser Vigor, characters regain 10 HP per minute and 100 HP for a 10-minute break. That's going to erase pretty much any damage you can be concerned about, unless you're worried about an immediate ambush or buff spells running out. Heck, most parties can spend 10 minutes searching the room before moving on!

[Big Fau]

It's good, but not nearly enough to matter. You're investing 2 feats to try (and fail) to keep up with the average damage output of enemies at your CR, and those spells get worse the higher your level gets (the Cure X line just doesn't hold up as the average damage of your enemies increases, and they don't hold a candle to the spells you could be using instead of Cure X at some levels).

[INoKnowNames]

Maybe I should be entirely honest. I'm building a support Cleric for a 'stalt game. The Cleric is going Healing Hand (of Mishakal), alongside a Sorc going War Weaver, with the restriction on Divine Spells being cast through the Weave lifted.

So think about it more this way:

ECL 3+: Maximized Cure Spells.
ECL 7: Maximized + Cha Mod Cure Spells.
ECL 8: Maximized + Cha Mod Cure Spells to all within Touch Range (only Light Wounds)
ECL 9: The same, but Moderate Wounds, too.
ECL 10: Maximized Empowered + Cha Cure Wounds to all in Touch Range up to Cure Serious.
ECL 11: The same, but Cure Critical, too.
ECL 12: Now the same, but up to 30 ft. away, too.

I was also planning on throwing in that Initiate Feat that lets any hitpoints that heal over convert to temporary hit points, rather than be wasted. And then there's another ceremonial feat that lets cure spells healing a few other minor conditions, too.

In a Gestalt Campaign, how broken would this be? And what would you be expecting a Divine Metamagic Cleric // X (any prestige classes or side class to 'stalt, I suppose) to be like in comparison? I've been under the assumption that with the right Metamagic abuse and turn undead ability stacking, that one should be more worried about -dealing- 300+ damage at mid levels, rather than being able to heal about 100 or so.

And then that Divine Metamagic Persist for Vigor still tops this combo while using less resources. The former takes up a feat to qualify for War Weaver, a feat to qualify for Healing Hand, 2 feats to get the Maximize Spells off, and 2 more feats for the 2 additional features, and still spends a spell every time they want to do this. 6 Total, +1 Spell Per Use.

Meanwhile, Extend Spell can be gotten as a bonus feat, requiring only 2 more feats and whatever level of Turn Undead Optimization you want to use, which can be set to be -very- high, lasts all day, and can also be used on other spells that enable you to become outright Godly as opposed to just ignoring hit points once you've won a fight.

How wrong am I? I'll update the Op with this question.

[Big Fau]

Again, not broken. Somewhat more efficient, but not broken. Healing is one of the few things you can do as a full caster that won't break D&D. Especially considering you're in Gestalt, and you have the potential to go DMM: Persist and be a true CoDzilla.

[tyckspoon]

Basically all you wind up doing is making sure your party health is a binary state: 100% or Dead. Thing is, this was *already true* once you got outside of immediate danger thanks to Wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor/Faith Healing (1st level wands have a trivial cost compared to party wealth) and once you get high enough to drop Heal it's basically true during combat as well. Your optimization just lowers the necessary level for that to be true. If your DM has already accepted that particular facet of optimized D&D play, then nothing you have proposed is broken. If he hasn't, it'll be a rude shock, but it's still not really much different than buying some wands and tossing off a few charges after each fight.

[Flickerdart]

Well, we already did this for CR3, so let's do the other points. Note that the spells keep up very poorly without these bonuses - at level 6, before you get to add CHA mod, you're healing 30 damage per casting; level 6 threats that focus purely on damage such as an Ettin or Girallon will hand out beatings to the order of 30-40 points of damage.

At level 7, your Charisma, as a secondary ability score, will generously be a 16. You also get access to Cure Critical, which is 4d8, so that's nice. You're now sitting on 42 damage per casting healed, which you can do maybe twice a day before you're down to 38 damage healed, and after three of those, you're down to 34. And in all likelihood, you haven't even finished your second combat encounter of the day at this point. Let's take a look at the run of the mill baddies you might be facing:
Cloud Giant Skeleton: 2*4d6+18; avg. 64.
Hill Giant: 2*2d8+10; avg. 38.
Gray Glutton: 2d8+8 and 2*2d6+4; avg. 39.
Elephant: 2d6+10 and 2*2d6+5; avg. 41.
Bulette: 2d8+8 and 2*2d6+4; avg; 39.
Dire Bear: 2*2d4+10 and 2d8+5; avg. 44.
So you're still barely keeping up with monster damage output at your best, and very quickly falling under par.

Your level 8 and 9 bonuses are pretty pointless since CMW only does 28 points of healing which is like half of what monsters at this level are putting out. All that multi-target heals allow you to do is not have to choose between who lives and who dies when your DM sends multiple lower-level monsters at you.

Level 10 is slightly more meaningful - assuming a Charisma boost, CSW is 2d8+46 at this level which averages to 55. Pretty good, eh?
Bebilith: 2d6+9 and 2*2d4+4 and poison (1d6 Con, average 3 or 4 lost, which means an average HP loss of 15 before secondary kicks in); avg. 49.
Clay Golem: 2*2d10+7; avg. 36 but you can't heal this because of Cursed Wound.
Amusingly there aren't any other "I hit your face and nothing else" monsters at this level. But hey, maybe your DM will send two Young Adult Red Dragon Skeletons (CR8 each) at you, a CR10 encounter. Each dragon deals 2d8+10 and 2*2d6+5 and 2*1d8+5 and 2d6+15, average 94. Their damage output per round exceeds your best healing spell by nearly 150 points.

Your further advancements in this field aren't really useful, as moving up to CCW only adds a tiny bit of damage and healing everything within 30 feet just makes you suck slightly less against the dragons, who are now doing merely double what you heal. Oh, except four of them is a CR12 encounter, so no, you're still screwed.

[erikun]

In a Gestalt Campaign, how broken would this be?
Absolutely none.

Just as a comparison, one level of Dragon Shaman (PHBII) can get everyone in your party unlimited fast healing for no actions from first level, up to half a character's HP. Having everyone take the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, along with a Dread Necromancer, means that everybody in the party can receive unlimited free healing. A Healing Belt (Magic Item Compendium) heals 6d8 HP each day for 750gp, works every day, and you can carry around multiple belts. A Wand of Cure Light Wounds gives you 50d8+50 HP of healing (average 275 HP) and can be used anytime you're out of spells, also for 750gp. A Wand of Vigor is even better, giving a total of 550 HP healing for the same 750gp.

Yes, you are going to be good at healing characters in battle. You're recovering roughly twice the HP as a standard Cure spell, and can do so from a (short) distance. However, you are devoting your entire build towards doing so and even that isn't really overly effective.

Once you get the spell, Heal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heal.htm) will probably be what you cast regularly. It heals 110 HP when you first get it, recovers from almost any status effect, and it benefits from absolutely nothing in your build. The fact that your entire build is only half as effective as what a standard cleric can do after 10th level is rather telling.

[Killer Angel]

Consider also that maximize spell is not exactly a "must have" feat for a cleric, and to pick it in the early levels, is a waste of a precious slot.

[INoKnowNames]

Because of your responses, I was able to my the fears of my Dm to rest. Thank you very much! :smallsmile: