Wizard explanation

[Azreal]

Why are wizards/clerics considered so much Better then other classes?
Like I've heard it stated here but I've seen wizards do no damage, but fighters/monks just consistently out damage most of the party and then out of combat do plenty of useful things.

[Yukitsu]

Well, as a relative point of reference, a level 13 wizard can beat a level 20 fighter, even if the fighter is pre buffed and has level 20 wealth vs. level 13 wealth. It's all a matter of potential power, and the wizard has a huge amount of possible power. It's simply a matter of recognizing that damage is pants and using the wizard's real strengths.

[JusticeZero]

At a point, their flexibility gets to the point where they can assemble synergistic packages of spell effects that steal the show. This is around the time when they get so many spell slots that they aren't worrying about running low on spells very quickly anymore. Not only that, but they can refit that package of abilities to match the situation they expect to deal with that day.

[Sith_Happens]

This is 3.X, I assume.

Well, for starters, "out damaging the rest of the party?" Seven words: Empowered Maximized Twinned Repeating Orb of Force. Twice per spell slot and standard action, if we're talking about a Sorcerer. Through the bars of the Forcecage that you can be quite sure your sword won't get you out of.

[Slipperychicken]

If a Wizard prepares the right spells, he can beat anything.

For damage, he can usually polymorph into something scary (cryohydra?), summon something scary, or he's in a party and can let Fighters clean up enemies he's disabled. If he disables the enemy hard enough, damage isn't quite as important because they're out of the fight and he can just CDG them with a Scythe or something.


Bear in mind that dnd isn't all about damage; status effects (paralyzed, dazed, sleeping, dominated, etc) are often far more valuable as they disable foes so you can just wail on them at your leisure. When the enemy can't retaliate, your DPS isn't important as long as you can kill them before they recover.

[KillianHawkeye]

Why are wizards/clerics considered so much Better then other classes?
Like I've heard it stated here but I've seen wizards do no damage, but fighters/monks just consistently out damage most of the party and then out of combat do plenty of useful things.

Maybe dealing damage is not the only measurement you could be using? Seems like most Wizards around here prefer to just incapacitate the enemies and let the Fighter and Rogue do the mopping up.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Primarily the ability to completely bypass encounters with a single spell. Charm Person can literally turn a tense negotiation into a tea party. Fly provides total immunity to ground-bound melee brutes. A well positioned solid fog can keep a foe out of the fight for several rounds, with no save and no spell resistance. Shivering Touch (a third-level spell) can drop an elder wyrm in one shot. Planar Binding and the like can summon outsiders every bit as powerful as other PCs.

Take a look at the list of "spells that ****ing kill people." Sure, there are saving throws on some of 'em... but what's better, a 75% chance to damage a foe, or a 50% chance to one-shot 'em?

And a wizard, as opposed to a sorcerer, can take every obscure, situational spell he wants.

[Azreal]

Alright so it's not so much outright damage so much as locking an enemy in place to dish out damage

Outside of combat a Fighter or Monk really isn't that useful.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Alright so it's not so much outright damage so much as locking an enemy in place to dish out damage

Outside of combat a Fighter or Monk really isn't that useful.
Exactly. A wizard can use charms, illusions, divinations, buffs-- he can do anything, really. A mundane, even someone like a rogue, just doesn't have the skill points for all that-- never mind that even epic skills tend to be outshined by low-level spells.

[TheThan]

wizards have a HUGE toolbox that they can utilize to defeat their foes.

If they need to blast, they have blasting spells, if they need to immobilize, they can immobilize, if they need to debuff, they can debuff, if they need to summon, they can summon, if they need to spy, they can spy, if they need to buff themselves, they can buff themselves, and on and on.
you get the idea.

this gives wizards options, far more options than a warrior type can have. those options translate directly into power. since they can "counter pick" their spells to defeat whatever encounter they expect to face.

spellcasters are also the only classes in the game (3x here) that increase in power as they increase in level. Sure the fighter gets more hit points, more to hit, but he doesn't gain anything else. the wizard gains the same (at a slower rate) but also gains more spells per day, access to new spells and higher level spells slots every time he levels.

Fighters progress linearly, while wizards progress quadratically.

[holywhippet]

It should be noted that the wizard/cleric/druid being more powerful than fighters does take time, and by time I mean levels. Generally speaking, the classes are reasonably balanced up until about level 7 more or less. After that the power difference starts to kick in at an increasing rate.

For another example, consider the cleric spell divine power. It sets their BAB to be the same as their level which is to say the same as a fighter of the same level. They also get +6 strength and bonus hit points. Then combine this with righteous might which increases strength, constitution, AC and gives you a bit of damage reduction. These two spells alone bring a cleric up to and possibly beyond the fighting skill of a fighter. Now consider that they can use a feat to extend the duration of these spells to pretty much an entire day by trading in spell turning attempts.

On top of that, those are just two spells - a cleric has even more spells available. Think cleric vs. fighter would be one on one? Not, after the cleric starts casting summoning spells. They can use spells like hold person to try to pin them in place, blade barrier to make engaging them in melee to be painful and spells like flame strike to smite them directly.

[ThePhantom]

Primarily the ability to completely bypass encounters with a single spell. Charm Person can literally turn a tense negotiation into a tea party. Fly provides total immunity to ground-bound melee brutes. A well positioned solid fog can keep a foe out of the fight for several rounds, with no save and no spell resistance. Shivering Touch (a third-level spell) can drop an elder wyrm in one shot. Planar Binding and the like can summon outsiders every bit as powerful as other PCs.

Take a look at the list of "spells that ****ing kill people." Sure, there are saving throws on some of 'em... but what's better, a 75% chance to damage a foe, or a 50% chance to one-shot 'em?

And a wizard, as opposed to a sorcerer, can take every obscure, situational spell he wants.

Shivering Touch is overrated, the spell resistence should block it almost every time. After all, if the dice are against you, the wizard is likely the first one going down.

[Zanos]

Shivering Touch is overrated, the spell resistence should block it almost every time. After all, if the dice are against you, the wizard is likely the first one going down.

CR(and by relation SR) checks are incredibly easy to boost. Assay Resistance is also a swift action.

[PersonMan]

After all, if the dice are against you, the wizard is likely the first one going down.

If the dice are against you, the wizard is the only one who can GTFO alive.

[Azreal]

What about Sorcerer/Oracle does fixed spells kill their usefulness?

[AuraTwilight]

They're still quite powerful. As a general rule, a spellcaster will always be superior to a non-spellcaster. However, the wizard's ability to cast any spell in the game, period, is what makes them so godlike.

[Endarire]

For a limited list caster, like a Sorcerer, they just need to choose their spells well. For example, a Sorcerer casts the same spells as a Wizard, but learns them at a different rate.

Also, one thing that just came into my mind today is that a caster can change roles frequently as he levels up. A non-caster does pretty much the same thing from level X to level Y. (That is, grapple, melee, trip, use physical ranged attacks, and so on.)

If you get tired of being a crowd controller, you can spend your spell slots on buffs and summons. If you get tired of that, you can be a blaster. If you tire of that, you can be a debuffer. If you prefer that you roll the dice, you can. If you prefer your GM or opposition roll the dice, you can make it happen.

Compare this to a melee guy. If you get tired of whacking things with your special sword, you pretty much need a new character. (You could, for example, get a polymorph on you to grapple a lot, but that requires magic.)

[Azreal]

But later levels. If I understand this.

[Slipperychicken]

But later levels. If I understand this.

Casters can rock early levels too if they know what they're doing. Laying down a Sleep or a Color Spray, for example, can pretty much devastate a 1st-3rd level encounter.

[Yukitsu]

But later levels. If I understand this.

Depends on the player to some degree. It tends to happen automatically at later levels, but it can be apparent at 1 to a very limited degree, and can get pretty obvious as low as 5.

[Randomguy]

Even at low levels casters get great stuff, like Entangle for druids and Web for wizards.

[eggynack]

Outside of combat a Fighter or Monk really isn't that useful.
That's really only half the story. In combat, a fighter or monk also isn't that useful. I mean, they can do what they do, but their impact on combat is also less than that of a wizard. The way I think of it, fighters fight monsters, until later levels when they fight bigger monsters. Wizards fight monsters, and then they fight encounters, and then they fight towns, and then they fight worlds. You can only get so far stabbing things, but if you shoot a freezing fog at a group of enemies, that's a group of enemies that isn't fighting back.

But later levels. If I understand this.
Not exactly. The generally asserted point where wizards surpass fighters is somewhere between two and five. They might even get there at one, if they push optimization hard enough. I mean, sure, at later levels they're using shape change and winning the game, but at early levels they're using web and also winning the game. Notably, the druid is also significantly better than mundane classes, starting at level one. The way it maps out, their various class features always push them higher than any given fighter. Druids are cool like that.

[Arbane]

Also, there's out-of-combat spells that completely overshadow anything the mundanes can do. Need to pick a lock? Knock is an autosuccess. Need to scale a cliff? Fly is an autosuccess. Need to get somewhere fast? Teleport. Need to solve a murder? Speak with dead. Need to build anything in 6 seconds? Fabricate. Need to find out practically anything? Scry, Augury, Commune....

In D&D, there's practically nothing mundanes can do that magic can't do better.

[eggynack]

Also, there's out-of-combat spells that completely overshadow anything the mundanes can do. Need to pick a lock? Knock is an autosuccess. Need to scale a cliff? Fly is an autosuccess. Need to get somewhere fast? Teleport. Need to solve a murder? Speak with dead. Need to build anything in 6 seconds? Fabricate. Need to find out practically anything? Scry, Augury, Commune....

In D&D, there's practically nothing mundanes can do that magic can't do better.
Oh Pelor yes. Fighters get basically zero out of combat ability. If you go to the king of an allied nation, seeking aid in the coming war, and he will only provide that aid if you show him your mighty tripping ability, that's about it right there. I guess they can also intimidate, but a display of tripping prowess just seems cooler. The only issue is that basically everyone already knows that. Even new guys know that fighters aren't going to help you when they're not fighting. The real key to showing wizard superiority is proving that fighters are also not going to help much when they are fighting.

[Darth Stabber]

In D&D, there's practically nothing mundanes can do that magic can't do better.

Actually damage is the one thing melee can out do casters at. It takes a fair bit of opti-fu, but a barbarian ubercharger is going to outdamage anything if he is allowed to charge. A friendly wizard can assure him of that opportunity (and pump the damage higher), an enemy wizard can make his shtick impossible, rendering him well nigh useless. If dungeon battles are a game of chess, wizards aren't a piece, wizards are the hand that moves the pieces, and they have neat ways to cheat too.

So there you go, a pet barbarian allows a wizard to deal more damage than he could himself. A pet rogue allows him to save slots on things skills can do. A pet cleric keeps the others healed up, and makes a fine second attack dog. A druid can even look like an attack dog.

[Ashtagon]

A well-built fighter can fight his way through the plot.

A well-built wizard can dictate the plot.

That's the difference.

[Eyclonus]

But later levels. If I understand this.

Even at lower levels caster can win out over fighters, even 1v1, take Power Word: Pain as an example, at level 1 if the Fighter or Barbarian has less than 36 HP, it can be death sentence alone.

Power isn't about damage or build complexity. Power is always having options that give you the advantage regardless of the scenario.

[Perseus]

Well my current Planar Sheperd Druid (ecl 15) can...

Wildshape (angels)
Cast as a 15 level druid
Cast as a 17 level cleric (planatar)
Cast as a 20 level paladin (well soon ad he gets the artifact)

And I would still be hesitant to match him up against a wizard because an optimized wizard is just that scary... Sure I could win... But I would need to be lucky.

[joca4christ]

Casters can rock early levels too if they know what they're doing. Laying down a Sleep or a Color Spray, for example, can pretty much devastate a 1st-3rd level encounter.

I've seen this happen! Party was interrogating an expert/illusionist...(see ONE LEVEL of wizard) and all but one of the party failed the save when the guy got tired of them asking him questions and cast color spray.

As a DM teaching newbies...I always mention color spray as a great spell to take early level.

[Killer Angel]

A pet cleric keeps the others healed up, and makes a fine second attack dog.

err...
A Cleric is a T1, the same as wizard, so it's hardly a pet.
Plus, wizard's spells may be more powerful or more versatile, but the wizard must learn the spells and have them in the spellbook, while the cleric got immediate access to all printed spells (in theory).

[Segev]

Yeah, sadly, the closest thing to being able to get out-of-combat utility that might compete with a caster without being at least a gish is ... well, skills. And you have to work at those. To pull it off, you need to focus on the charisma skills, by and large. You're not going to get very far with "not being seen" while you do your thing. Sure, you can pull it off to a degree, but eventually, magic still trumps you. A Wiz 5/Mindbender 1 with Mindsight can auto-spot you when you try to sneak around. Even if all he can do is narrow down the square you're in, he's got AoEs that can target your weak saves.

So you need the Charisma skills to influence other people. Charm Person can turn a tense encounter into a friendly discussion; it's a lot harder to pull off with Diplomacy. But at least it's possible. And if you can do it well enough, you can sway entire neighborhoods. At low levels, this is your best bet. You can combine rogue stealth for ambush tactics and combat avoidance (and even pickpocketing and burglary) for your "traditional" adventuring, and then use Bluff and Diplomacy to talk you way out of fights you can't win. Back in town, you use these same Cha skills to get everyone on your side.

And that's just trying to keep up with the well-played wizard, who can Charm key individuals to get THEM to help him sway others to his side, and who can drop a Sleep or Color Spray so he just has to spend a couple rounds coup de graceing the K.O.'d foes.

Mid-level, there's only one way to really build the mechanics to keep up: Leadership. And eventually, into every Leadership build comes a magic-using cohort or follower. Now, this isn't to say it invalidates your non-magic build being competitive. He is the shot-caller in any Leadership-follower relationship, and the man who can talk the wizard into pursuing his goals is going to be more effective than the wizard who needs somebody to give him purpose. And honestly, wizards and clerics and druids, too, eventually do rely on others.

What makes the rogue using these skills able to stand up competitively is that, like the wizard or cleric who loses his favorite barbarian bodyguard but is still rather omni-competent on his own, the cha-focused rogue still has the skills to hide and avoid unwinnable encounters, and to charm (non-magically) those who would threaten him. In that latter, the rogue may even be stronger than the wizard; a rogue can Diplomancy his way past entire groups, while the wizard has to pummel their Will saves and hope he gets the leaders.

But even so? Charm and Dominate and their mass-equivalents are more certain under most circumstances, and the wizard and cleric have a ton more tools in their kit than just that.

[Kioras]

A fighter breaks skulls.

A knowledagable fighter player can take out clumped up groups of mobs, or otherwise engage multiple mooks at the same time and shine in pure damage dealing and is not a serious threat to the campaign.

A newbie fighter can lay on moderate amounts of damage in encounters and is not able to do too much out of encounters, by the number. They are not a threat to your campaign.

A wizard builds worlds.

A knowledagable player, playing a wizard can either break/destroy your campaign, or holds himself back so he does not hog the spotlight or support the group by making everyone else better or dictate the battlefield conditions.

A newbie wizard can sometimes more dangerous because they can accidentally break the campaign without actually knowing what they did, or how it happened.

[Deophaun]

Actually damage is the one thing melee can out do casters at.
Not exactly.

First, there's apocalypse from the sky, which, if dropped in range of a city, is going to deal a total amount of damage inconceivable to a melee character right out of the box.

Then, there's the fact that explosive runes coupled with amaneunsis can theoretically (depending on when it triggers magical traps) produce an unbounded amount of damage. That comes online at level 5.

But, we have to also consider that any damage you do that drops an enemy beyond -10 is wasted anyway. An uber-charger dealing 40,000 damage isn't outperforming a magic-missile mage dealing 10,000 damage unless the target really does have >10,000 HP.

[SethoMarkus]

Then, there's the fact that explosive runes coupled with amaneunsis can theoretically (depending on when it triggers magical traps) produce an unbounded amount of damage. That comes online at level 5.


I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Amaneunsis specifically says that it does not copy magical text (such as explosive runes). Do you simply mean using Amaneunsis to expose/read/trigger multiple pre-prepared Explosive Runes (near) simultaneously?

[Deophaun]

Do you simply mean using Amaneunsis to expose/read/trigger multiple pre-prepared Explosive Runes (near) simultaneously?
Right. Have a book full of explosive runes. Cast amaneunsis. Enjoy the earth-shattering explosion.

This only works if amaneunsis is ruled to trigger magical writing at the time of its casting, not when it tries to actually copy the writing (which is a process, not an event).

[SethoMarkus]

Ah, makes much more sense! I had thought that's what you meant, but wanted to make sure. (Quite a nice trap for the BBEG to use in his decoy private library.)

[Sith_Happens]

Shivering Touch is overrated, the spell resistence should block it almost every time. After all, if the dice are against you, the wizard is likely the first one going down.

Actually, dragon SRs tend to be slightly below average for their CR. Which means that all you need to beat it every time is the Arcane Mastery feat.

Making the touch attack post-Scintillating Scales is another story.

[Perseus]

Not exactly.

First, there's apocalypse from the sky, which, if dropped in range of a city, is going to deal a total amount of damage inconceivable to a melee character right out of the box.

Then, there's the fact that explosive runes coupled with amaneunsis can theoretically (depending on when it triggers magical traps) produce an unbounded amount of damage. That comes online at level 5.

But, we have to also consider that any damage you do that drops an enemy beyond -10 is wasted anyway. An uber-charger dealing 40,000 damage isn't outperforming a magic-missile mage dealing 10,000 damage unless the target really does have >10,000 HP.

A monk build totally wins the damage by way more. There is a build that is TO, wield the planet as a improvised weapon and crit fumble... World breaks apart.

:p

Why take out one creature when you can effectively AoE the entire planet?

[Gwendol]

Clerics (and druids) are typically easier to build for versatility. They no all spells automatically, have limited spontaneous casting, can cast in armor, can switch to melee when needed (and typically fight as well as melee classes), can summon, etc.
They are the most self-sufficient classes.

[eggynack]

A monk build totally wins the damage by way more. There is a build that is TO, wield the planet as a improvised weapon and crit fumble... World breaks apart.

:p

Why take out one creature when you can effectively AoE the entire planet?
Critical fumbles aren't really a thing, and I believe that you'd have to be a hulking hurler of some variety to use the world as a weapon.

[Perseus]

Critical fumbles aren't really a thing, and I believe that you'd have to be a hulking hurler of some variety to use the world as a weapon.

Nah it is some obscure build that when you roll a 1 with an improvised weapon, the weapon breaks. Thus the planet goes krackkaaaaboooooom.

[Deophaun]

A monk build totally wins the damage by way more. There is a build that is TO, wield the planet as a improvised weapon and crit fumble... World breaks apart.
But that's more along the lines of "Rocks fall, everyone dies" than "I did 15 bajillion points of damage."

But TO is fun!

[Perseus]

But that's more along the lines of "Rocks fall, everyone dies" than "I did 15 bajillion points of damage."

But TO is fun!

But this time it is the PC is in charge of the rocks.

[Darth Stabber]

But this time it is the PC is in charge of the rocks.

If that happens in a game the GM has already lot control of the game, the PCs were in charge of rocks before that happened.

[Killer Angel]

A monk build totally wins the damage by way more. There is a build that is TO, wield the planet as a improvised weapon and crit fumble... World breaks apart.

:p

Why take out one creature when you can effectively AoE the entire planet?

In TO, you also have PunPun. :smallamused:

With PO, the mailman can deliver impressive damage, and i doubt he will stay so far behind an ubercharger.
So yeah, even in the "pure damage" field, casters can rival meleers.

[Aharon]

If a Wizard prepares the right spells, he can beat anything.

For damage, he can usually polymorph into something scary (cryohydra?), summon something scary, or he's in a party and can let Fighters clean up enemies he's disabled. If he disables the enemy hard enough, damage isn't quite as important because they're out of the fight and he can just CDG them with a Scythe or something.


Bear in mind that dnd isn't all about damage; status effects (paralyzed, dazed, sleeping, dominated, etc) are often far more valuable as they disable foes so you can just wail on them at your leisure. When the enemy can't retaliate, your DPS isn't important as long as you can kill them before they recover.

I don't know how the polymorph myth came to being. It is (likely) true for shapechange, but at the time you get polymorph, you're still relatively low on spell slots. You have the choice of either burning all your spell slots on buffs, and be about as effective as a damage dealer as an optimized fighter, or you choose a defensive form and still have spell slots for attacking left over. Note: I'm assuming medium optimization without spelldancing or incantatrix permanency shenanigans - with those, it looks different, but the majorities of tables I played at didn't allow those.

[Darth Stabber]

In TO, you also have PunPun. :smallamused:

With PO, the mailman can deliver impressive damage, and i doubt he will stay so far behind an ubercharger.
So yeah, even in the "pure damage" field, casters can rival meleers.

Mailman's output is less conditional, but also noticably less. The rivalry is one of potential vs. reliability, but the potentials are not as close as you would think.

[eggynack]

Mailman's output is less conditional, but also noticably less. The rivalry is one of potential vs. reliability, but the potentials are not as close as you would think.
Are you sure this is necessarily true? Yes, the actual mailman probably deals less damage, and yes, it's more reliable with that damage, but do those things need to be structured that way? What if, instead of devoting a lot of resources to making sure that the damage always hits, the mailman devoted a lot of resources to making sure that the damage was high when it did hit. My hypothesis is that the mailman takes the reliability side of the rivalry, not because it has to, but because it wants to. Having searing spell is more important than dealing 100 more damage to enemies who aren't heat immune, so that's what they take. I haven't run the numbers to any extent, but I'd like to see how much damage the mailman does when it ditches all of the components that make it reliable.

[Zanos]

Mailman's output is less conditional, but also noticably less. The rivalry is one of potential vs. reliability, but the potentials are not as close as you would think.

The amount of damage sort of ceases to matter when it reaches the threshold of "kills anything printed in one hit."