How Do You Optimize

[ThatGuyOvaThere]

So my brother and a couple of friends are in a group together and my brother always optimizes to be the best in the party. It isn't the fact that he does this that bothers me. It is the fact that he does this so that if he ever has to kill a party member, he can.

I want to challenge him and kill his character or characters. Now it isn't just slaughter all your characters, it is more of stop optimizing so you can kill us kinda message.

So how do you optimize martial character and magical based characters. As well as how do you choose a prestige classes that will completely lock with the classes or with other prestige classes.

[Emperor Ing]

Well the easiest thing to do is to go Wizard or Sorceror and pick the broken spells. No thought required. My personal favorite is Shivering Touch.

Alternatively, just take this player aside, and tell him that the fact that he's preparing to PK makes you uncomfortable and is in general making the game less fun for you to play. Truth be told this is probably the best option unless you want your party to turn into an optimization arms race.

[Kuulvheysoon]

This'll get ugly.

If you must, try to build to be able to neutralize, not kill him. Beating the crap out of him, then having him at the edge of your (metaphorical) sword, telling him that this is not how things are done? Personally, I'd find this more effective than "Hah ha, I just cast a maximized empowered shivering touch. You die now."

[Segev]

If you can't talk him out of it OOC, I suggest just building your character to no-sell. Figure out what tricks he's planning to use, and optimize to be strong against them.

I once got another player to ragequit a game because I built a character that he couldn't hurt with his. This was after he killed my last one. I didn't attack him, I didn't antagonize his PC, and I didn't even try to bring anything up. But when we got into a fight against an enemy as a party, he was clearly disturbed by how well my character stayed utterly unruffled. He quit for "unrelated" reasons. At least, that's what he claimed. The next day.

[ThatGuyOvaThere]

Okay so now I don't have to kill, but I would still like to know how to optimize.

[eggynack]

Dungeons and Dragons is a game in which options are integral. If you have a lot of options, and have the ability to effect every situation, you are highly powerful. Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in the game, simply because they have a ridiculous amount of options. Similarly, the guide to optimizing melee characters is making them as broadly applicable as possible. Thus, you want a given fighter to be able to trip, charge, intimidate, and dungeon crash, all at once. They can never hit caster levels of power, but they have their own path to optimization. The exact path to optimization for every class can't be placed under one roof, so you need to decide what you want to do first. Still, if you want easy to access power, play a druid. Pick good forms, good companions, good spells, good summons, and natural spell, and you're at the highest tiers of optimization without any particular build optimization. It's relatively simple, highly durable, and adaptive to any situation at any given moment. If you want to know how to optimize a particular character, you're going to need to tell us what that character is. If you just want to know how to be powerful in general, try a druid.

Edit: Missed a bit. Offense is generally more powerful than defense. Healing, AC, tanking in general, they are all generally suboptimal in comparison to killing your enemies directly. If you're building towards defense, you're probably not building a particularly powerful character. Obviously there are some defensive builds that are incredibly powerful, but this is just a generalization, and is pretty accurate in that context.

[Segev]

The thing is, you have to know what you're optimizing FOR.

How does your brother plan to kill the other PCs? Does he do it batman-style, looking at everybody else's build and designing a plan to kill them, personally? Does he build a character optimized for general mayhem, with a benchmark of "can this kill one of the other PCs?" as his guidepost? Does he design dirty tricks that are meant to take advantage of things like the trust a party has to have in its members in order to catch the other PCs in moments of weakness?

each of these has different answers to defend against them.

[Lightlawbliss]

Just as something to think about: One of the members of my usual group tends to build with "can I Fight the rest of the party and take out atleast one" as a build question simply cause If he can he knows he is likely to be able to handle what the DM throws at him.

If you want to optimize for everything, it will take druid, artificer, and/or broken material.

[Eyclonus]

Ok so really you're not optimizing for the sake of carrying the campaign or anything, just so you can lay the smackdown on your brother.

For this its probably best to go caster as there are so many inherently broken things casters can do. We just need to look at the situation.

For example if your brother's character has HP below 50 and isn't immune to mind-affecting spells, use the arcane spell Power Word: Pain, this will either kill him or put him pretty close to death, in fact this one is still usable until he breaks 100 HP, but its especially strong below 50HP, its a level 1 spell too.

Optimization can be generally summed up as having a suite of options available at all times, while also mitigating bad tradeoffs or using non-affective tradeoffs (eg taking the Shaky Flaw on a melee only character for an extra feat, the penalty to ranged attacks means nothing when you're all about swinging two handed swords). As others have said, casters bring more options than others so its likely that it will be easier for you to optimize to deal with your brother using a caster build.

That said you can still optimize melee characters to do impressive things. There is for example a build for a 20th level human fighter to solo and kill in 1 round the Tarrasque, the biggest baddest monster in 3.5, unfortunately the build can't deal with the Tarrasque's undying mechanics, whereas a level 3 or 5 wizard can do it in a few rounds and shutdown the beasts resurrection ability, hell its possible at level 1 with the Precocious Apprentice feat and lucky rolls.


One of the members of my usual group tends to build with "can I Fight the rest of the party and take out atleast one" as a build question simply cause If he can he knows he is likely to be able to handle what the DM throws at him.

Has your DM tried throwing the Painbolds at him? There is an option to give Kobolds, both NPC and PC, a level 1 spell as 1/day SLA in Races of the Dragon, I read of one guy abusing this and have done it myself: Give every Kobold in a colony Power Word: Pain, this is the lazy man's Tucker's Kobolds.

[erikun]

Yeah, trying to optimize to kill his PC-killer isn't going to work well. He will merely try to optimize to kill your PC-killer-killer, and you're just back where you started from (only worse). Disabling or neutralizing his character will be far more effective, especially because it doesn't allow him to build another character afterwards. :smallwink:

As others have said, we'd need to know what you are trying to optimize. At mid-high levels, a Wizard can neutralize just about any mundane threat (Invisibility, Fly, Web, Solid Fog) but has a more difficult time against other spellcasters. Druids can do this as well, with a good number of HP, animal companions with scent, Entangle, and a lot of summons. I think there are TOB melee options that deal STR or DEX damage, which would put an opponent out of the fight, but I don't know what they are.

[captain fubar]

optimizing for fighting other players is likely not a good idea unless other options have already been exausted, that said if you want advice on a build it would help to see what you have so far. with out knowing what you have to work or what you are going up against with all I can say is play somthing that is still fun and competitive if the conflect between you dosn't happen.

if you don't mind cheapshots and cheese a few options to consider are: abolith mucis, shaped amf that excludes your space, save and suck anyway, disentigrating/sundering a spell componant pouch/holy symble when it is unatended, dust of sneezing and choking, and exploiting metagame knowledge of the other players build

remember other players can resort to these tricks as well as you can so dont start the arm race unless you are realy shure this is the way you want to handle things.

[SowZ]

I like to optimize a reasonable amount. So, if I am in a group that is low op, I will pick a silly concept, (dual crossbow wielder, use a single dagger in up front combat, throw mushrooms at people,) and then optimize that concept as much as I can. I end up with a reasonable power level.

[Darth Stabber]

Optimizing in a low op as a caster is a great way to hide a great deal of power. The last time I pulled the trick it was as a wizard5/war weaver5/iot7fvX. It gets extra milage out of buff spells, letting me keep some rainy day ridiculousness stowed away. Somebody gets uppity and thinks they can take me, they find nerveskitter followed by orb of fire elven spell lore'd to sonic to the face followed by power word pain to be a good deterrent from future aggressive tendencies.

[Snowbluff]

Trying to kill a wizard could be really tricky. Fortunately, you know this guy, and you can stick close to him. At a high enough level, the Swiftblade (lots of Ex based buffs) can cast AMF on himself, and as long as he has a non-magic way to fly, can keep a wizard from casting. Extraordinary Spell Aim can do this as well, but means you aren't immune to SR: yes Spells. I think there are other classes that can do this quite as well, but I don't know them.

[Zubrowka74]

I like to optimize a reasonable amount. So, if I am in a group that is low op, I will pick a silly concept, (dual crossbow wielder, use a single dagger in up front combat, throw mushrooms at people,) and then optimize that concept as much as I can. I end up with a reasonable power level.

You really did this build ? How did you call him, Mack the knife ?

[cerin616]

I like to optimize a reasonable amount. So, if I am in a group that is low op, I will pick a silly concept, (dual crossbow wielder, use a single dagger in up front combat, throw mushrooms at people,) and then optimize that concept as much as I can. I end up with a reasonable power level.

See, but, the dagger guy sounds cool as balls, and the dual crossbow wielder can get pretty good with scout/drow stuff/rapid fire/a third hand (or the gloves of storing)

[Karoht]

I don't play Batman wizards. I play the Batman player.
As such, when I think about later levels of the character, I think about my other party members, and I do develop some contingencies in the event that I have to fight party members. Dominate Person is a thing, Vampires and Aboleths are dangerous enough as it is without having a party member try and kill me. So I always always have that in the back of my head. What if party member X tried to kill me.
How much does this alter my character generation? How much do I optimize to fight the party? Not much. I optimize to be an effective party member, chances are if you are effective VS enemies you are effective VS party.

"Be polite, be efficient, and always have a plan to kill everyone you meet" ---Sniper, Team Fortress 2

My go to answer is usually some form of battlefield control, because it affects the enemies and any dominated players all the same.
My personal favorite is Bewildering Koan, because who the heck bothers with a high sense motive?

[Sheogoroth]

Buy a scroll of dominate person and buff your initiative.
The best thing about scrolls is that you can pay more for a higher DC!
Don't tell him you've bought it, then the next time he's looking to pick a fight- dominate him, have him assist you in tying him up. Then when he's helpless, just coup-de-grace him. Or make him promise to stop bullying the party around.
Normally, self-harming actions wouldn't be permitted- but tying oneself up is, in and of itself, an innocuous action.

[Karoht]

In a more recent campaign, most of the party ended up taking the vampiric template. I chose not to. But I knew that at any moment, I could end up as a meal.
That night, I waited until they were all resting. I made myself invisible, and spammed Command Undead until the target eventually failed a will save, move to next target. I exerted no command on them. Out of 5 party members, I had 3 of them literally on a leash for the rest of the campaign, so long as I refreshed the command undead every 24 days. I was the paranoid sort who refreshed it every 5.
I did not once utter a single command, I gave them no directions, I never once forced the issue.

Why you ask? Because as vampires they could attempt to dominate me with their SLA at any time. So I got the drop on them.

Sure enough, one of them attempted to dominate another party member, confirming my suspicions. And it was over something stupid as well, a decision of left or right at a T intersection in a dungeon.

And not long after that, the words "lets kill the sorcerer" escaped the lips of the 10 ft tall 86 STR vampiric black orc. At which point, the DM said "nope"
The party was very mad at me, shouted over me that this wasn't allowed for X, Y, and Z reason. At which point I finally said "All that happens is you don't take a swing at me. I smile and take no further action against you."

Humiliating a party by beating them to the punch with their own trick was worth it.

[Tvtyrant]

Play something that is really hard to kill. Sorcerer with Wings of Cover or Wizard with Abrupt Jaunt and then move into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Now if he attacks you you can shrug it off and keep on chugging.

[OverdrivePrime]

I'm just going to point out that I've never once seen an OP come back to one of these threads and say, "Hey, thanks! I totally trounced [insert target of ire], and that solved all our group's problems! We're all much better friends and have so much more fun together now."

I'm just sayin'. :smallsigh:

[ShadowFireLance]

In the quote of one of my friends;

"Optimization doesn't necessarily mean power, by any means, power is something that a lot of people have. Optimization is having power, and knowing what to do with it."

Most people are going to point out that Wizard is best, but it's honestly not.
A true optimization is something that focuses on one thing, and can do that one thing, amazingly well.

[Scow2]

Most people are going to point out that Wizard is best, but it's honestly not.
A true optimization is something that focuses on one thing, and can do that one thing, amazingly well.Umm... only if that one thing allows it to do anything it needs to. Being the greatest at basketweaving is useless when you need to be able to defeat a wall of spectres (I was going to say The Tarrasque, but it's probably possible to weave a basket around him as a standard action, and keep weaving it faster than he can destroy it)

[Gavinfoxx]

The easiest way to optimize is to read the links that are linked to in this thread:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

[Spuddles]

The easiest way would be hitting him with a charm or dominate while he is sleeping. Then when he turns on the party, oops, you are in control. :smallamused:

Psion with Psionic Dominate would be able to do this best, since you could get around his creature type easiest/fasted with overchannel.

[Grayson01]

Just a question that has no real help for your Opt question, but what is his in character reasons for attacking teh oterh party memebers? Is it because they don't agree with X decision? or what?

[Yogibear41]

I like to optimize a reasonable amount. So, if I am in a group that is low op, I will pick a silly concept, (dual crossbow wielder, use a single dagger in up front combat, throw mushrooms at people,) and then optimize that concept as much as I can. I end up with a reasonable power level.

I do this (sort of) I pick a concept I like and then go with it, then some people say I powergame to hard. Starting a level 1 druid soon, then they will really see :smallsmile:

[Nagukuk]

In this situation with your brother ... you should optimize your self in a martial way.

1 Give up eating doughnuts and eat healthy food

2 go out side , lift weights, work out, train MMA

3 now if you do this for a long enough amount of time, you should be bigger and stronger than your brother ... if not buy HIM some doughnuts and repeat step 1 and step 2

4 profit

5 ... now that you are bigger and stronger than your brother when he optomizes his character and kills yours, you get up and beat him down ... NOT his character you BEAT HIM ... TADA!!! YOU WIN !!!


If your character is ever again killed by him you have not beaten him hard enough or you have not followed the correct steps outlined above well enough.
Find a new fun hobby... preferably where your dicjk head brother cannot ruin your fun ... maybe because you are now in shape ... find your self a girl and spend time playing with her instead of afore mentioned DHB.


Don't beat people at their game ... beat them at your own

[Darth Stabber]

Abrupt Jaunt is again highly useful. Even though they don't have to roll to hit you with a save or X, they still have to have line of effect, thus saving you from opposing dominates while conscious, a spell turning or contingent teleport can protect you while unconscious. As far as retribution goes, send them to hell, be as literal as you want. I personally consider a threat against my character to be forfeiture of your life, but my characters rarely ping on a detect good spell. Other options, set up a traditional camp, let them sleep in their bedrolls, you have a comfy rope trick, and they can't get you in there.

If they decide to mess with you, magic jar them. While in their body cut off their genetalia, their feet, and their dominant hand. Then use the other hand to gouge their eyes out. Then go back to your body.

Because murder is bad mmmkay.

[Jett Midknight]

You buy a scroll of Summon Tippy.

[Krobar]

"I wish that if and when a member of our adventuring party willfully attacks another member of our adventuring party, this Necklace of Strangulation to immediately appear around the attacker's neck."

All you're doing with this Wish is contingent-teleporting an item - well within the safe limits of a Wish. And it can be done far in advance. It doesn't require any optimization whatsoever. You just need some way to get a Wish, and a Necklace of Strangulation.



This is how I deal with party member treachery. You can word your Wish any number of ways to cover any sort of situation, like betrayal, theft, poisoning, etc.

[Scow2]

"I wish that if and when a member of our adventuring party willfully attacks another member of our adventuring party, this Necklace of Strangulation to immediately appear around the attacker's neck."

Getting a wish requires a FAR higher level than most parties will do with. If you're getting it at relevent low levels, you're better off using the wish for something impressive that makes the plot go, not screwing over party members.

[shaikujin]

First off, unless the players have an understanding and agreement from the start, deliberately trying to kill the character of someone in your group can end quite badly.

A less drastic measure would be to discourage this both in and out of game. In-game, you can use an Retributive Amulet (BoED Pg 116) to split the damage between you and a melee attacker. There's also a shield or armor (name escapes me at the moment) that forces a charm effect on a melee attacker.

Against casters, use AMF fields, Dwoemer of Transference or even Spellblades (PGtF Pg 120) to nullify certain spells.



As to optimization, there are many ways to optimize. Using game breaking tricks in a campaign will often result in a dull game.

I find it more fun to take a weak class and see what ways I find to overcome its' weaknesses and build synergies.

[Gavinfoxx]

I dont suggest using antimagic fields for, well, anything...

[Krobar]

Getting a wish requires a FAR higher level than most parties will do with. If you're getting it at relevent low levels, you're better off using the wish for something impressive that makes the plot go, not screwing over party members.

Requires about 30K to get a scroll if I recall. Or you come across a +1 luck blade with one Wish. Or you get one as a reward for something. Point being it's definitely NOT unheard of at lower levels to come across a Wish. It happens.

And you're not screwing over party members with a wish like that, you're PROTECTING your party from a guy who wants to kill them. If a character doesn't want to die violently he shouldn't attack his party members.

[Scow2]

Requires about 30K to get a scroll if I recall. Or you come across a +1 luck blade with one Wish. Or you get one as a reward for something. Point being it's definitely NOT unheard of at lower levels to come across a Wish. It happens.

And you're not screwing over party members with a wish like that, you're PROTECTING your party from a guy who wants to kill them. If a character doesn't want to die violently he shouldn't attack his party members.

There are easier ways to protect the party from a psychopath than blowing 30k GP, which is a signficant fortune at lower levels. Something you'd want to spend on permanent items, not restraining bolts.

A scroll of Hold Person, Solid Fog, or similar lockdown spell is MUCH cheaper.

[eggynack]

I dont suggest using antimagic fields for, well, anything...
This. Definitely this. AMF does a surprisingly small amount to curb the abilities of casters. Even if you don't have a spell effect that directly works through the field, there's a pretty solid number of ways to remain unaffected by the field's power. People talk about AMF's as if they're a perfect wizard failsafe, but they're so not that to any extent.

[ThatGuyOvaThere]

A lot of you asked what I was optimizing against, for, to accomplish but you all failed to see my second post of I know longer need to kill him, this is because he killed me for almost becoming over-deity at level 6, so just links to guides, similar forums, etc.

P.S. All is forgiven I got the chance to kill the pkers and failed, and like my new character much better + getting smited by the gods for revenge on
in-game un-justice of the murder of the richest man in the world.

[Gavinfoxx]

No longer needing to kill him, however, is not actually an answer to the questions we were asking him...

It sounds like there was a lot of GM Fiat involved, and people didn't actually understand the power levels involved...

[ThatGuyOvaThere]

It sounds like there was a lot of GM Fiat involved, and people didn't actually understand the power levels involved...

GM Fiat over what the killing, the riches, or the becoming over deity, because the over deity part was caused by a robe of useful items which gave me endless gold

[Gavinfoxx]

GM Fiat over what the killing, the riches, or the becoming over deity, because the over deity part was caused by a robe of useful items which gave me endless gold

Yes. 10chars!


Edit: Okay, I should clarify. Let me put it this way: "You all are playing so fast and loose with the rules, that I don't believe you are playing something that we would recognize as D&D."

[ThatGuyOvaThere]

10chars!


Edit: Okay, I should clarify. Let me put it this way: "You all are playing so fast and loose with the rules, that I don't believe you are playing something that we would recognize as D&D."

The DM is un-experienced as a dm (as a player he has a year and half under his metaphorical belt) and I decided just once to abuse a dm or the campaign but

Just to be clear about something unrelated, robes of useful items never runs out of the items.

[Gavinfoxx]

You sure? I opened up the 3.0 SRD... once you take the patch off, that's it!

"Robe of Useful Items
This appears to be an unremarkable robe, but a character who dons it notes that it is adorned with small cloth patches of various shapes. Only the wearer of the robe can see these patches, recognize them for what items they become, and detach them. One patch can be detached each round. Detaching a patch causes it to become an actual item, as indicated below. A newly created robe of useful items always has two each of the following patches:
dagger
bullseye lantern (filled and lit)
mirror (a highly polished 2-foot-by-4-foot steel mirror)
pole (10-foot length)
hemp rope (50-foot coil)
sack
In addition, the robe has 4d4 other items:
d% Result
-- ------
01-08 Bag of 100 gold pieces
09-15 Coffer, silver (6 in. by 6 in. by 1 ft.), 500 gp value
16-22 Door, iron (up to 10 ft. wide and 10 ft. high and barred on one side-must be placed upright, attaches and hinges itself)
23-30 Gems, 10 (100 gp value each)
31-44 Ladder, wooden (24 ft. long)
45-51 Mule (with saddle bags)
52-59 Pit, open (10 cubic ft.)
60-68 Potion of cure serious wounds
69-75 Rowboat (12 ft. long)
76-83 Minor scroll of one randomly determined spell
84-90 War dogs, pair (treat as riding dogs)
91-96 Window (2 ft. by 4 ft., up to 2 ft. deep)
97-100 Roll twice more
Multiple items of the same kind are permissible. Once removed, items cannot be replaced.
Caster Level: 9th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Market Price: 7,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb."

[ThatGuyOvaThere]

You sure? I opened up the 3.0 SRD... once you take the patch off, that's it!

"Robe of Useful Items
This appears to be an unremarkable robe, but a character who dons it notes that it is adorned with small cloth patches of various shapes. Only the wearer of the robe can see these patches, recognize them for what items they become, and detach them. One patch can be detached each round. Detaching a patch causes it to become an actual item, as indicated below. A newly created robe of useful items always has two each of the following patches:
dagger
bullseye lantern (filled and lit)
mirror (a highly polished 2-foot-by-4-foot steel mirror)
pole (10-foot length)
hemp rope (50-foot coil)
sack
In addition, the robe has 4d4 other items:
d% Result
-- ------
01-08 Bag of 100 gold pieces
09-15 Coffer, silver (6 in. by 6 in. by 1 ft.), 500 gp value
16-22 Door, iron (up to 10 ft. wide and 10 ft. high and barred on one side-must be placed upright, attaches and hinges itself)
23-30 Gems, 10 (100 gp value each)
31-44 Ladder, wooden (24 ft. long)
45-51 Mule (with saddle bags)
52-59 Pit, open (10 cubic ft.)
60-68 Potion of cure serious wounds
69-75 Rowboat (12 ft. long)
76-83 Minor scroll of one randomly determined spell
84-90 War dogs, pair (treat as riding dogs)
91-96 Window (2 ft. by 4 ft., up to 2 ft. deep)
97-100 Roll twice more
Multiple items of the same kind are permissible. Once removed, items cannot be replaced.
Caster Level: 9th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, fabricate; Market Price: 7,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb."

Oh my Pelor, I did not see that sentence at all in my dmg until I just looked, well that makes me a little upset.

[Krobar]

There are easier ways to protect the party from a psychopath than blowing 30k GP, which is a signficant fortune at lower levels. Something you'd want to spend on permanent items, not restraining bolts.

A scroll of Hold Person, Solid Fog, or similar lockdown spell is MUCH cheaper.

True. But MUCH less fun.


I take it you've never seen the shocked look on the face of a player who decides to do something like attack a party member (or whatever the trigger is), and have the DM say "okay... just as you start your action, a necklace appears around your neck and begins constricting, cutting off your airflow. It hurts, and you take damage."