[PF] Please help me build a Non-Magic sword & board fighter

[noobplayer]

to begin with, I'm a new player and created a human fighter (no other races or classes are available). and I'm starting as at level 6.
I would love to fight like a spartan soldier or even more so like achilles. With a spear/sword and a shield. Durable in a defensive stance by using tactics and mobile/agile while attacking.

in our DM's setting, there is no magic, at least we don't have access to it and none of PCs have it.

Rolled stats: 18-16-13-13-11-10 waiting to be distributed among abilities. Also +2 and +1 bonuses are waiting to be distributed as well
Which feats do you advise me? and also can I combine for example Phalanx and Two Weapon Warrior, if yes how do I do that?

btw I love the idea of shield bashing. bull rushing etc. or using spring attack. but I read somewhere else that spring attack is weak and it's not worth spending all the feats to reach it. Though in theory isn't it kind of "move, attack, move back" so that melee opponents have to spend a turn to reach you? Why is it considered weak?

thanks for all the help in advance.

[Fyermind]

What books do you have access to? The following suggestion assumes you have access to any books and is as well documented as I can make it:

Dungeoncrasher from Dungeonscape alternative class feature taken at levels 2 and 6 replacing bonus feats.

Power Attack (Human) from Player's Handbook

Improved Shield Bash (Fighter 1) from Player's Handbook

Hyena Tribe Hunter (1) from Shining South or Combat Expertise from Player's Handbook

Shield Charge (3) From Complete Warrior

Improved Trip (Fighter 4) from Player's Handbook

Shock Trooper (6) From Complete Warrior

Wishlist:
Shield Slam From Complete Warrior at some point this gives you another condition to dish out, it's good if you don't know what to get
Knockback from Races of Stone if you can find a way to count as Large is much better than shield charge.
A +1 Brutal Surge Heavy Spiked Shield (This costs 8490 gp) Brutal Surge is from Magic Item Compendium. The ability and enhancement are both on the spikes as a weapon no the shield as a shield.

Carry a javelin in your hand that isn't carrying a heavy spiked shield. Throw the javelin if you can't charge. Drop it if you can. Use both hands on your shield for extra damage and better power attack ratios. You have two very good choices when you charge, trip or bull rush. The good news is you can do both. If you bullrush one foe into another you get a free trip attack against both of them. If there are no nearby foes or solid objects, you can instead take advantage of your free trip alongside a normal attack and deal your damage that way.

When you are in melee you are looking for ways to break an opening for a charge or line up your opponents for a bull rush. Trip attacks are a pretty good deal with your large bonus on them (+6 before strength which is your highest priority) and can be a good way to get the upper hand.

This is not a very high powered build. This is taking into account that fighters are a low power class, shields are a low power option, and you want to use them to make something decent out of them. This character will be a beneficial member of most parties in most melee encounters. Against foes with high strength or large size you become a power attack charger using shock trooper to divert the penalty to armor class and deal as much damage as you can with your shield (1d6+1.5*str+2*BAB). Depending on how common creatures like this are you may want to grab Leap attack at 8 or 9 for the extra return on charging power attacks.

Edit looking at stats:
18 str, 13 dex, 16 con, 13 int, 10/11 wis/cha

[Devronq]

Spring attack is considered weak because you have to spend soo many feats to get there and then your limited to a single attack. Pounce is much superior it allows to to move and get a full attack Sword and board is considered one of the weakest fighting styles and im sure other will suggest that you go with an animated shield and a two handed weapon. This is a very weak build but its also very important to remember that optimization only matters if everyone is doing it. If everyone has similar levels of optimization and the dm is low op as well then any build can shine.

[Keld Denar]

Sounds like you want Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII). It's TWFing with a shield bash, minus the heavy Dex requirements and technically allowing you to TWF with two 1handed weapons (large shield is a 1handed weapon). Requires Improved Shield Bash, and IIRC, also Shield Specialization. You can have all 3 on a Human Fighter 1 at 1st level without flaws. Still kinda locks you into the 5' lifestyle of a full attacking fighter, though. You can forgo your bash (or your mainhand attack) and still move, but then you aren't using those feats.

[Fyermind]

I found a resource you can probably do all your own research from:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630

[noobplayer]

thanks for all the answers


Spring attack is considered weak because you have to spend soo many feats to get there and then your limited to a single attack. Pounce is much superior it allows to to move and get a full attack Sword and board is considered one of the weakest fighting styles and im sure other will suggest that you go with an animated shield and a two handed weapon. This is a very weak build but its also very important to remember that optimization only matters if everyone is doing it. If everyone has similar levels of optimization and the dm is low op as well then any build can shine.

ooh I totally forgot. In our setting, there is no magic... would you call sword & board weak in such a setting as well? Also in which book is the pounce feat?


What books do you have access to?

I only have access to corebook and advanced players guide. So I'm fairly limited. I downloaded a torrent which includes many books, just to check the things you wrote but couldn't find them.


Sounds like you want Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII).

I couldn't find this as well

[ericgrau]

Sword-and-board is only weak for melee compared to shocktrooper abuse. Everything is. Unless you're playing high optimization don't worry about it and take whatever good shield feats get suggested.

That said no magic hoses AC from equipment and non-casters in general. It totally ruins the system since it's built around it. Assuming all casters are banned at least it's fair. Still, defenses get hosed more than offensive bonuses. Around level 7-10 you may want to ditch the shield and assume everything will hit you regardless. A high con will help. That will mean you won't be able to build specifically around the shield unless your DM allows retraining. Or unless he has houserules to make up for that 10 AC you're losing.

Generally all melee get str, then con, then whatever. Normally I'd say dump everything into str and get a 21 there. Now I'll say 20 str/17 con, then increase equally from there: 18 con, then 22 str, then 20 con, then 24 str, etc. If your DM usually only does hp damage thanks to this no magic thing, I might even swap those two numbers and put con a little ahead of str.

To make up for the AC you'll never have, and since it seems like you get extra ability score bumps you might consider a reach weapon and becoming a tripper. Normally you need a potion of enlarge person to continue it into high level, but if your DM isn't using huge magical beasts you may be able to manage.

Spring attack is an even trade where your foe attacks less often but so do you. Paying feats for an even trade is all lose. So it gets hate for that. But if you pull some trick to make it uneven then it can be good. Maybe you're a glass cannon or you have a reach weapon, for example. The other thing is that there are high optimization tricks. It's not that pounce and shocktrooper are specifically better than spring attack, they're better than everything melee. And personally I would be a bit bored playing high optimization melee and doing the same thing more than once.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Since it's Pathfinder, and you're a fighter, there is only so much that you can do. You're either going to want to take the shielded fighter, two-weapon warrior, or phalanx soldier archetype, depending on what you're particulary style of sword and board is going to be.

As for feats, unless you're going phalanx (which uses reach weapons, so you'll probably want to do combat maneuvers), you'll want to take:

TWF -> Greater TWF & Two Weapon Rend (4 feats)
Power Attack -> Greater Bullrush & Bull Rush Strike (4 feats)
Imp. Shield Bash -> Bashing Finish (4 feats)
Missile Shield (1 feat)

You'll note that's only 13 feats, and you'll have 21 to spend as a human fighter. I don't really know what you should do with the other ones, to be honest. General feats like Imp. Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Toughness, and EWP (Some good 1-handed weapon) are probably good places to start.

As for weapons, I'd recommend either a flail, Longsword, Falcata, or bastard sword, depending on what you want to do, how many feats you want to invest. If you go phalanx fighter, I'd recommend the Guisarme, Lucerne Hammer, or some other pole-arm.

If you're a Phalanx Fighter, switch out the TWF stuff with Combat Expertise Tripping or trying to sunder things. I might keep the ability to do shield bashes if things get hairy.



Also, what kind of game only lets you play human fighters? This game sounds like one you shouldn't be using D&D/PF to run. Also, I think you've figured it out, but just to make sure, a bunch of the guys above you are making 3.5 recommendations.

[noobplayer]

thanks for the advice and yeah it was my dumb mistake because the title had 3.5 before, then I noticed what I've done and changed it back to PF.

would you say shield-twf is weak in a none-magical PF setting as well?

and other advices are welcome from anybody. I'd really appreciate it.
Thanks

[Squirrel_Dude]

I would add onto my suggestion that you would probably want to take EWP Falcata (for the extra crit range) and then take improved critical or get it keened. That way you'll have more chances to trigger bull rushes.


It's not that Shield TWF is bad in a non-magic setting. Magic or the lack thereof doesn't effect how powerful Shield TWF is. It's still feat intensive, MAD, and doesn't do as much damage as a crit-fishing TWF, Two-Handed fighting, or Archery.

It's still on the same place on the totem pole as when compared other fighting styles. The lack of any kind of magic just means that there are fewer classes that potentially stand above the fighter who is using that style.


Anyway, a couple questions:
- Rolling ability scores or point buy? (TWF is mad MAD, remember)
- Any other houserules?

More suggestions:

Archetype (Two Weapon Warrior) <- I prefer damage to AC.
Feat Progression:
Level 1: Improved Shield Bash
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 1: Power Attack
Level 2: Improved Bull Rush
Level 3: Double Slice
Level 4: Shield Focus*
Level 5: Missile Shield*
Level 6: Improved TWF

*These are more trying to fill levels because a lot of the feats you want have a BAB +6 req. Feel free to replace them.

[noobplayer]

Anyway, a couple questions:
- Rolling ability scores or point buy? (TWF is mad MAD, remember)
- Any other houserules?


rolled ability scores: 18-16-13-13-11-10 with a +2 and +1 to be distributed as well

other houserule is that we don't know how to ride, we don't even have horses and we haven't seen one. Our technology is pretty much outdated, exotic or advanced weapons are not permitted by the DM.

[Nightraiderx]

Feat Finder (http://www.realmshelps.net/datafind/feats.shtml)

Although this is 3.5 feats are they allowed in your build?

[ericgrau]

would you say shield-twf is weak in a none-magical PF setting as well?

Well now there's no shocktrooper so like I said it's a decent way to go until high level, about 7-10, when unless your DM is replacing the missing ~+10 magical AC your defenses can't keep up anymore. You could still wield a shield without blowing feats into it, to plan for long term.

[Squirrel_Dude]

rolled ability scores: 18-16-13-13-11-10 with a +2 and +1 to be distributed as well

other houserule is that we don't know how to ride, we don't even have horses and we haven't seen one. Our technology is pretty much outdated, exotic or advanced weapons are not permitted by the DM.What if the exotic weapon is something like a falcata or a khopesh, which historically existed before the medieval longsword?

[noobplayer]

Well now there's no shocktrooper so like I said it's a decent way to go until high level, about 7-10, when unless your DM is replacing the missing ~+10 magical AC your defenses can't keep up anymore. You could still wield a shield without blowing feats into it, to plan for long term.

nice thanks, the DM doesn't think we'll go above level 10. It will be a 12-15 session campaign.


Feat Finder (http://www.realmshelps.net/datafind/feats.shtml)

Although this is 3.5 feats are they allowed in your build?

nope unfortunately they aren't


What if the exotic weapon is something like a falcata or a khopesh, which historically existed before the medieval longsword?

nope they are banned :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

By the way, what is your DM doing to balance out the lack of magic items? Since your DM knows that AC scales with magic items while attack bonus scales with raw level, what is he doing to correct the situation for this campaign?

[Squirrel_Dude]

nope they are banned :smallbiggrin:
:smallannoyed:

Whatever. Just use a longsword, scimitar, flail, warhammer, or bastard sword* (whichever ones aren't banned). Direct your DM to the rules in Ultimate Combat for primitive armor and weapons. He might find them interesting for this game. As for ranged weapons, I would recommend Pilums, Slings, or some equally cheap option until you can get a bow.

*Bastard swords are treated as martial weapons if you wield them two-handed, so I don't see why you couldn't use them one handed if you took the feat.

[noobplayer]

thanks Squirrel_Dude

Anybody else? I would love to see more advice. Thanks



By the way, what is your DM doing to balance out the lack of magic items? Since your DM knows that AC scales with magic items while attack bonus scales with raw level, what is he doing to correct the situation for this campaign?

AFAIK, he won't. I feel like AC needs to scale as well because unless the roll sucks, everything will start hitting after a while.

[ericgrau]

He is doing one thing to help the lack of magical AC: ending before level 10. I'd get fighter for AC bonuses, attack bonuses and bonus feats. Except maybe a barbarian dip for rage. True it's -2 AC, but the con compensates. And you should have offense too.

You can go to this page for combat related feats: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats

Some good ones I found, mostly looking for "shield", were:
Power Attack, Furious Focus, Vital Strike: Good offense for your single attacks. I would not power attack on full attacks though. Ideally all attacks are full attacks, but that's not up to you.
Weapon focus tree: Don't neglect your offense
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash: to shield bash
Shield Slam: your shield bashes have knockback
Dodge: Don't underestimate a +1 in heavy armor. When foes only have mundane attacks they're usually going after your AC and needing to roll a 15. Now they need a 16. A few more +1s and nothing can touch you.
Mobility?: If you do take dodge your high AC and this +4 is like auto-success tumbling. Though in heavy armor it's not that fast.
[greater] shield focus: Two more +1s.
Shield Wall: +2 shield AC if an ally is using a shield too, also more spartan themey.
Saving Shield: A +2 to an ally is often better than a +1 to you, and it fills that spartan phalanx theme.
Combat Expertise: I'd take this only after free +1s but it can fill in the last couple points to make you unhittable. While not removing too much attack bonus so you can still hit foes. If foes never attack anything except AC, I'd skip this feat and get a tower shield instead. Unless you want to shield bash.
Missile Shield: if your DM likes archers, especially nice since there are no magical rays and explosions
mounted shield: Protects your mount if you get one.


Between armor training, dex and feats I see 5-7 extra points of AC to help you keep up. Not that I'd necessarily get it all. To be a team player I'd advance offense and defense evenly, or slightly favoring offense depending on how good the feat is. There may be other related non-shield feats I missed, and squirrel dude already found some. TWF feats, other offense and other AC perhaps.