having trouble playing a druid

[geekintheground]

i've been playing a druid for a couple sessions and i've noticed im not contributing much. im level 5, and i think the problem is with my spell selection. i havent been able to use entangle because we havent been in places with plants (i recently asked for a pouch with endless seeds so i can use plant growth 1st, but thats using 2 spells). my companion is an ape (i used to have a leopard, but it died when i sent it in to fight. yes i buffed it), it cant get any weapon or armor proficiencies because "he's not smart enough". i can only use core+spell compendium, can i get some advice?
my current feats are: Spell Focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning (human) and Improved Initiative.

note: my DM made a special exception for companion spellbond which i'll take at 9th lvl.

sorry for the lack of focus

edit: other than core, i can use the other monster manuals (just not neccessarily all the animals in them) and spell compendium for sure. anything else i have to ask for and is about 50/50

[Arundel]

1.) Pick up the natural spell feat
2.) Wild Shape into something awesome (fleshrakers are a common choice)
3.) Never leave animal form
4.) Wreck dudes

[geekintheground]

sadly, i cant turn into fleshraker for 2 more levels (DM said so). and, unfortunatly, that still doesnt really help. i've tried blasting AND crowd control and i just seem to not be good at druid. im hoping to get better with practice (its one of my 1st characters and my 1st campaign), but was hoping for maybe a list of effective spells or strategies? again: for spells i only have access to core+spell compendium.

[Tvtyrant]

There is this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222256) and this list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12183941#post12183941) Both of those go through good Druid spells. I personally find the Halfling Substitution level for Druid to be the best because it nets you Owl form early on (out sneak the Rogue!)

[Verditude]

I would suggest the Impeding Stones spell from Cityscape if you have a problem with no plants for Entangle, but you'd probably have to get that approved by the DM. Sleet Storm is also good battlefield control, as is Tremor. Natural Spell is your 6th level feat; until you get it, your best way to contribute will be either to charge into melee as a powerful animal or stay back and blast debuff, battlefield control, summoning, and damage spells.

You can wild shape now, once a day, so a good strategy is to cast a couple buffs and then turn into (if you can use non-core monster manuals) a desmodu hunting bat or a fleshraker dinosaur. If you can't be a fleshraker, a deinonychus does similar things but not quite as well, and is core.

Produce Flame is a reasonable attack spell (at 5th level, cast it before turning into a high-Dex, either mobile or flying form) as is Creeping Cold, especially if you can extend it (ask your DM how much damage that does).

[Kalaska'Agathas]

The Druid Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940) has a handy list of good spells broken down by level. Similarly, the Summoner's Desk Reference (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255219) has a good breakdown of the creatures you can summon - since you seem to be summoner spec'd, I think this will be a good resource for you.

As far as your AC goes, I'm pretty sure that you could get Barding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#bardingMediumCreatureandLarge Creature) for an Ape - however, if you can use the MM3, you might want to pick up a Fleshraker. They're quite possibly the best AC on offer, and if you can get Venomfire (I know it's not Core+Spell Compendium, but worth asking) it becomes an absolute monster.

Edit:

sadly, i cant turn into fleshraker for 2 more levels (DM said so).

Is there any particular reason for this? By RAW you are free and clear to Wildshape into a Fleshraker.

[Endarire]

Druid Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=940.0)

Hi Welcome - Druid Edition (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0)

[eggynack]

First off, you should probably switch out your animal companion. Riding dogs are a classic, and are probably the best option before brown bears, at least in a dinosaurless game. You don't need weapons on an animal companion if your animal companion doesn't need weapons. That there is just logic. Also, a riding dog can wear barding, so that's a plus.

You have summoning powers, so make use of them. At fifth level, the best summon is probably the dire wolf, so summon dire wolves in massive endless hordes. They're beefy, and they are powerful, and they act as a battlefield control spell, solely as a consequence of being a pile of meat that trips for free. The best second level summon is probably the hippogriff, and at first, there aren't many powerful options. Learn your summon list, and learn it well, because it's something you can use, even in your darkest moments.

Next, you have spells. If entangle doesn't work for you, don't prepare as much of it. If you have some on your list, and you can't cast it, convert them to wolves or something. You can't go too far off course summoning wolves. In any case, first level spells aren't that important on a fifth level druid. Maybe get obscuring mist, or faerie fire, or omen of peril, or produce flame. Do things out of those slots that aren't that important, but that you'd be happy to have access to if you need it. Maybe get longstrider. You should still have an entangle slot, because by that level, if I can, I'm going to have most of my slots as entangle slots, but don't prepare all entangle.

For second level spells, I really hate the core list, so the SpC is just about my only source. Fortunately, it's a good one. Blinding spittle is a classic, as is kelpstrand, mass snake's swiftness, and splinterbolt. Blinding spittle is a debuff that just about never goes out of style, kelpstrand can seriously lock down a set of opponents if they're the right kind of targets, mass snake's swiftness is excellent in basically any party with a good melee concentration, and splinterbolt is the druidic scorching ray, if you're into that kind of thing. Pick some mix of them, and don't be afraid to convert kelpstrand into a hippogriff against a huge opponent. Spontaneous conversion is possibly your biggest asset.

At third, you get back your access to BFC's with sleet storm. Use that one where you would otherwise use entangle, because it's just an excellent piece of spellcraft. Stoneshape is one of those spells that is limited only by your imagination, wind wall is basically protection from an entire school of enemy, and call lightning is a decent way to spend your turns when you don't want to go all out. Just like the core spells from second level, I don't really like SpC spells from third level. I might be wrong on that one, but you can definitely get away with just core spells.

For wild shape, I'd honestly advise against it at fifth level. Without natural spell, it just doesn't seem worth it outside of utility purposes. I mean, if you need to fly, you need to fly, but I'd avoid it in any combat situation. If you want to buff and fight, buff your animal companion, and have him fight in your stead. It keeps you out of danger, and lets you do what you do best, which is casting spells. At 6th, you might choose to start existing in eagle form for the most part, but that's just not a viable option when you can't also cast spells. Anyway, I think that's most of the advice I have for that set of books and levels. With more book access, and higher levels, the data changes somewhat, but the list of spells I constructed should work out. Also, I forgot about 0th's, so consider cure minor wounds in a couple of slots, detect magic in a couple more, and probably at least one copy of create water. Cure minor is just to keep people stable when they'd die otherwise, detect magic is just obviously amazing, and create water has utility that you're presumably not getting from your other slots.

Edit: By the by, if you have other monster manuals, you should probably mention which ones you have. If you have MM II, you should use desmodu hunting bat as your primary form. Fleshraker makes a great animal companion, but I wouldn't use it as my own form. Personal melee just seems like a poor use of resources. You want the bat for the solid fly speed, the good AC, the high initiative, and the free hover. That's a classy assortment of abilities.

[geekintheground]

thanks guys, those links really help! i'll ask about impeding stones. my DM has already said no fleshraker AC, i eventually wore her down and got the ability to at least wildshape into one in a couple levels. i cant use desmodu bats either, it isnt because its from MM2 but because of its environment (i can only use things from jungles, forests, plains and some mountains). its getting kinda challenging to get anything interesting, but i'll keep trying. thank you again and if you think of anything else please keep posting! i need all the help i can get

edit: i have access to all monster manuals, but not necessarily all forms in them

[eggynack]

Probably riding dog/eagle then. You really don't need to wild shape yet, because it doesn't do you much good. Basically, people think that druids should punch things as bears, because bears are good at punching things. Bears are reasonable at punching things, but druids have access to abilities on a higher magnitude of power. Anyway, if you ever have access to more books, you should probably mention that. If you're really into buffed fighting, the best spells for that are probably the bite of the X line, which you have. I mean, if you can access any spells you want if you ask for them, that obviously changes things a bunch. I should probably try to work out which third level SpC druid spells are best, cause I haven't really considered it much.

Edit: If you have more monster manuals, there's probably a better flying form for you. There's likely one listed in the handbook. I haven't really thought about it, because desmodu is so clearly the best one most of the time.

[Darth Stabber]

Black bears are probably better ACs than apes, as are bison (who can get downright nasty in the right context).

Next level you can turn into a brown bear, and your concerns about "contributing" go right out the window, as brown bears are F'n Scary and you can turn into one. Infact a good rule of thumb for low through mid level druids is to always use the best bear available (except maybe polar bear). That's not just because of the druid "bear riding a bear summoning bears" meme, but because most varieties of bears are fairly effective, in a general sense, for their hit dice/level of availability. Other things are more effective situationally, but bears are going to be able to contribute well in almost any non-aquatic situation. For things slightly lower than bears, you have wolves, who are still effective at your current level. Cats have niches, but they are more "glass cannon-y" as hard hitting pounce chargers, crocodiles and alligators are great grapplers, but don't really shine outside of grappling, and if you are in the water, octopi are awesome.

[geekintheground]

i can access all monster manuals, the PHB and spell compendium for sure (which i'll put in the OP). anything else i have to ask for and is doubtful. i like the ape, but if by 9th lvl he hasnt started to shine as much as i had imagined i probably will get the riding dog.

[eggynack]

Next level you can turn into a brown bear, and your concerns about "contributing" go right out the window, as brown bears are F'n Scary and you can turn into one. Infact a good rule of thumb for low through mid level druids is to always use the best bear available (except maybe polar bear). That's not just because of the druid "bear riding a bear summoning bears" meme, but because most varieties of bears are fairly effective, in a general sense, for their hit dice/level of availability. Other things are more effective situationally, but bears are going to be able to contribute well in almost any non-aquatic situation. For things slightly lower than bears, you have wolves, who are still effective at your current level. Cats have niches, but they are more "glass cannon-y" as hard hitting pounce chargers, crocodiles and alligators are great grapplers, but don't really shine outside of grappling, and if you are in the water, octopi are awesome.
You can't become a brown bear until 8th level, when you get access to large forms. I also dispute the idea that becoming a bear is necessarily a good idea. I mean, summoning bears is great, and having a bear animal companion is even better, but being a bear just seems like a waste. I'm pretty much always going to want some kind of flight, because unless I'm buffed to the extreme, bear fighting is just a low return plan. If the OP can't access the desmodu line of bats, he should probably just get the best flying thing he can. It'll take some research to figure out what best fits the OP's parameters, but it's probably not a bear for awhile.

[eggynack]

i can access all monster manuals, the PHB and spell compendium for sure (which i'll put in the OP). anything else i have to ask for and is doubtful. i like the ape, but if by 9th lvl he hasnt started to shine as much as i had imagined i probably will get the riding dog.
At 9th level, you should probably just get a brown bear. There's not really a point to a riding dog by that level, so if you're going to swap, you should make it an upgrade. Meanwhile, I don't think there's much advantage to an ape companion. Compared to the riding dog, it seems to have lower defense, and less impact on combat. The riding dog plan is probably one that you should put into place as soon as possible, if you put it into place at all. You're starting to hit the point of diminishing returns on animal companion selection, so use it while you can. Anyways, beyond every other topic, spell and summon selection is probably the most important one. Get a good variety of powerful spells, and you can't go too far off course.

[geekintheground]

is there a ring of wizardry for divine casters? that might help

[eggynack]

is there a ring of wizardry for divine casters? that might help
I dunno, but it's probably not the most important thing. It has a lot more to do with spell selection than spell quantity. My list of spells for each level was a reasonably good one, though it can probably be improved. By fifth level, you can probably run all day off of just your regular allotment of spells. As I've mentioned, the most valuable resource you have access to is likely spontaneous summoning. Summoning means that you can prepare entangle, go into a dungeon, and still have that slot be useful. Summoning means that you could prepare detect poison in every single slot, and be better at fighting than most melee guys. Summoning means many things at many times, and learning all of its capabilities means that you'll never want for things to do. There really aren't that many situations where a summoned monster won't be incredibly helpful, and when those situations come up, that's why you've prepared a whole pile of other spells. Basically, you have the ability to prepare wind wall, under the assumption that you haven't wasted that preparation, even if you never face a single archer.

[geekintheground]

very true. i'll keep that in mind

[Norin]

is there a ring of wizardry for divine casters? that might help

boost your wis with periapt of wisdom to get bonus spells. Also, consider pearls of power. I have both om my druid now and it works well for me.

For now i use two 2nd lvl pearls that i found in a dungeon. Very nice to recall a blinding spittle or creeping cold. ;)

[ahnbalto]

The following advice is based on my current experience with a druid, it is in no way the best advice there is or always usable, and remember this is purely my take on the druid being a fun class to play and creating funny moments

For a 5th level druid for casting spells only using PHB i'd suggest this:
This depends on your build though
Brawler:
0 level:
Create water
Flare
Guidance
Resistance
Detect magic

1st level:
Produce flame
Faerie fire
Shillelagh
Magic fang

2nd level:
Flame Blade
Bark Skin
Flaming Sphere
Heat metal

3rd Level:
Call Lightning
Poison
Stone shape


Controlling the battlefield:
0 level:
Create water
Flare
Guidance
Resistance
Detect magic

1st level:
Produce flame
Faerie fire
Summon Nature's ally
Magic fang
Entangle(if possible)

2nd level:
Summon Nature's ally II
Bark Skin
Flaming Sphere
Heat metal
Summon Swarm

3rd Level:
Call Lightning
Spike Growth
Stone shape
Summon nature's Ally III

Summon lots of Dire badger's :p or bears

I'm sure people here have more experience than me, but i'd like to say that this is what my druid did in our eberron only campaign.
A fun combo is Call lightning + Flaming sphere, you have to stand at the edge of the battlefield, but a move action to move the sphere and a standard action to call a bolt of lightning.

Get some barding for your leopard, even with the penalties, and if you have a rogue make it flank with him. As someone else has suggested you should get a periapt of wisdom and a pearl of power.

Some goodies from Eberron: at level 7, ask your GM if you can take a magebred ghost tiger or bear from 5 Nations.
Greensinger Initate, for some fun spells added to your spell list
Totem Beast and Totem Companion, it' gives a nice save bonus and in the end a cool animal companion
all feats from ECS

[Spuddles]

A bison/bull in armor is the tankiest animal companion at your level, as it has a lot of HD. Ask your DM if you can bard it- barding has been used on everything from guinea pigs to warhorses to elephants. There are also rules for it in the PHB. It doesn't seem that wild to modify armor for a horse to armor for a cow.

Wild shaping is actually pretty bad in combat.

This is terrible, or at least incomplete, advice:

1.) Pick up the natural spell feat
2.) Wild Shape into something awesome (fleshrakers are a common choice)
3.) Never leave animal form
4.) Wreck dudes

Wild Shaping into an animal may give you the natural attacks and ability scores of one, but it also destroys your AC, which means you will die fast. It also doesn't give you any feats for fighting, and with 3/4 BAB, you aren't going to be landing many attacks. Just turning into a black bear and wandering into the front lines will get you slaughtered. Even trying to pounce in as a fleshraker will get you dead.

In order for Wild Shaping to be viable, you need to put buffs up on yourself. Luckily you can share thee with your animal companion so there's a considerable amount of spell slot efficiency there, so long as the two of you don't move more than 5ft away from one another.

However, with your feats and level, use wild shape and natural spell to fly above the battle field and cast spells onto it. Summon Nature's Ally is pretty good at getting bruisers. Dire Wolves trip and Giant Crocodiles grapple.

Another really good spell to use is Kelpstrand, from SpC. It locks down humanoid opponents because it makes a grapple check at your BAB + CL + wisdom mod. That's pretty brutal. And if you're close to the ocean shore, you get to add +4. And at higher levels, you can grapple multiple targets. And you don't even have to use any action or anything to maintain the grapple, or even count as grappling. All for a second level spell slot.

Grappled is a horrible condition vs. things with sneak attack.

[Feilith]

Untill you get natural spell wild shape is purely utility outside of combat. But personally one of my favorite things is to have your own little army of animals runnning around. I play a druid currently and my DM told our rogue about riding dogs. He got one and only rides it out of combat, so i use my move actions to Handle Animal to have it attack, then animal companion attacks, then either produce flame, call lightning, or SNA with your standard actions. Its DC 10 to have an animal perform a trick it knows so you should always make the check, and it gives you basically a free minion to control through combat.

Warhorses, or any other animal your party members have are good minions. Just put in the time to teach them the tricks.

If you can let your party have you drive the carriage. It makes you pretty well immune to random encounters if theyre melee based (driver is 10ft above ground) and you can rain down death and fire from the driver seat

[Darth Stabber]

You can't become a brown bear until 8th level, when you get access to large forms. I also dispute the idea that becoming a bear is necessarily a good idea. I mean, summoning bears is great, and having a bear animal companion is even better, but being a bear just seems like a waste. I'm pretty much always going to want some kind of flight, because unless I'm buffed to the extreme, bear fighting is just a low return plan. If the OP can't access the desmodu line of bats, he should probably just get the best flying thing he can. It'll take some research to figure out what best fits the OP's parameters, but it's probably not a bear for awhile.

Black bear is still a good grappler with plenty of attacks. If you are going blasto druid then birds and bats are all well and good, but personally I like to use wildshape offensively, for which bears are far better suited. As a general rule I tend to steer newbish players away from blastomancy in general, toward BC and more repeatable damage sources if they insist on dealing damage. Drop an entangle or something, maybe one of any number of awesome buff, then get in there and wreck some stuff. Crocadilians are also good choices for gappling, but they only get one attack (but are better at grappling).

[eggynack]

Black bear is still a good grappler with plenty of attacks. If you are going blasto druid then birds and bats are all well and good, but personally I like to use wildshape offensively, for which bears are far better suited. As a general rule I tend to steer newbish players away from blastomancy in general, toward BC and more repeatable damage sources if they insist on dealing damage. Drop an entangle or something, maybe one of any number of awesome buff, then get in there and wreck some stuff. Crocadilians are also good choices for gappling, but they only get one attack (but are better at grappling).
Using wild shape offensively just seems like a poor decision for a few reasons. First off, it puts you in danger. Doing the exact same thing, but doing so with an animal companion, keeps you safely out of danger while things die. The same goes for summoning. Wild shape forms are generally fragile, and this fellow doesn't even have luminous armor access to make it less fragile. In fact, most of the ways I'd go about making myself unfragile are unavailable. bears are probably the best fifth level option you have for punching, but it's not a great form for being punched.

Second off, punching stuff is a poor use of action resources. Sure, if you don't have any spells left, bearing up the place is on the viable side, but it's not my primary tactic. Casting a spell is pretty much always going to be a better use of your time. my list only had one blasting spell at each level, and I barely advocate preparing them all all the time. Splinter bolt is really the only one that's pure blasting, with call lightning being more on the attritiony side of things, and produce flame being attrition+buffing. I generally advise summoning and battlefield control in equal measures. The two schools of magic reinforce each other perfectly. These things are all better than punching stuff in the face. Druids are a tier one class, and becoming a black bear basically morphs you into a tier five class in an instant. This is doubly true at level five, where natural spell is unavailable.

The third reason is that being a bear also poorly utilizes your wild shape resources. You're basically trading flight, high AC, high initiative, and blindsight at 7th, and for what? High strength and some grappling abilities. That's a lot you're losing for very little. I honestly can't see any reason why I'd go black bear at any point in the game, especially if you have desmodu bat access. Maybe I'd go brown bear, because at least then I have possibly more punching power than a fighter. Realistically, you're becoming a worse version of a monk, and a monk focused on grappling at that. It's not a game I like to play, personally.

[Spuddles]

Black bear is still a good grappler with plenty of attacks. If you are going blasto druid then birds and bats are all well and good, but personally I like to use wildshape offensively, for which bears are far better suited. As a general rule I tend to steer newbish players away from blastomancy in general, toward BC and more repeatable damage sources if they insist on dealing damage. Drop an entangle or something, maybe one of any number of awesome buff, then get in there and wreck some stuff. Crocadilians are also good choices for gappling, but they only get one attack (but are better at grappling).

With medium bab, low strength, no grappling feats, medium size, and abysmal ac, grappling as a black bear is suicide without burning a bunch of spells to approach competency with a barb or fighter.

At which point, why not play a barb or fighter? They dont run out of spells, either.

If you want to grapple, just use kelpstrand.

[Darth Stabber]

Using wild shape offensively just seems like a poor decision for a few reasons. First off, it puts you in danger. Doing the exact same thing, but doing so with an animal companion, keeps you safely out of danger while things die. The same goes for summoning. Wild shape forms are generally fragile, and this fellow doesn't even have luminous armor access to make it less fragile. In fact, most of the ways I'd go about making myself unfragile are unavailable. bears are probably the best fifth level option you have for punching, but it's not a great form for being punched.

Second off, punching stuff is a poor use of action resources. Sure, if you don't have any spells left, bearing up the place is on the viable side, but it's not my primary tactic. Casting a spell is pretty much always going to be a better use of your time. my list only had one blasting spell at each level, and I barely advocate preparing them all all the time. Splinter bolt is really the only one that's pure blasting, with call lightning being more on the attritiony side of things, and produce flame being attrition+buffing. I generally advise summoning and battlefield control in equal measures. The two schools of magic reinforce each other perfectly. These things are all better than punching stuff in the face. Druids are a tier one class, and becoming a black bear basically morphs you into a tier five class in an instant. This is doubly true at level five, where natural spell is unavailable.

The third reason is that being a bear also poorly utilizes your wild shape resources. You're basically trading flight, high AC, high initiative, and blindsight at 7th, and for what? High strength and some grappling abilities. That's a lot you're losing for very little. I honestly can't see any reason why I'd go black bear at any point in the game, especially if you have desmodu bat access. Maybe I'd go brown bear, because at least then I have possibly more punching power than a fighter. Realistically, you're becoming a worse version of a monk, and a monk focused on grappling at that. It's not a game I like to play, personally.

You mention summons and AC, why not add another bear to the mix? Save your spells, breaking things the old fashioned way is easy, and even black bear form is more resilient than you think. Getting brown bear is amazing, turning you from good to great. Realistically you are far better than monk, you are better at fighting and have casting in your pocket ready to go. And brown bear has crazy punching power, especially if you get multiattack. Cats are pretty good, but they are fairly flimsy and can't grapple worth crap and crocs are only good at grappling, leading to bear. Flying forms are flimsier than you are letting on, an bear can take more hits than desmodu bat, and hits way harder. The spells are something you still have, and there is nothing like having an ace like that up your sleeve. Part of it "hidding power" as in getting things done effectively while having a more viscous to fall back, part of it making sure you always have some gas in the tank, and part of it style. Your point of using it as a back-up is valid, but I would rather ramp up than back down.

[eggynack]

You mention summons and AC, why not add another bear to the mix? Save your spells, breaking things the old fashioned way is easy, and even black bear form is more resilient than you think. Getting brown bear is amazing, turning you from good to great. Realistically you are far better than monk, you are better at fighting and have casting in your pocket ready to go. And brown bear has crazy punching power, especially if you get multiattack. Cats are pretty good, but they are fairly flimsy and can't grapple worth crap and crocs are only good at grappling, leading to bear. Flying forms are flimsier than you are letting on, an bear can take more hits than desmodu bat, and hits way harder. The spells are something you still have, and there is nothing like having an ace like that up your sleeve. Part of it "hidding power" as in getting things done effectively while having a more viscous to fall back, part of it making sure you always have some gas in the tank, and part of it style. Your point of using it as a back-up is valid, but I would rather ramp up than back down.
Well, because being a bear costs you more bears. Summons and AC's are completely expendable, while you are the opposite of that. You can't save your spells at all, because without spells, a black bear is nowhere near resilient. Seriously, they have 13 AC. That's probably less than you have while not a bear. How can a black bear take hits better than a desmodu bat? Their HP is identical, the bat can fly, and he has seven more AC. He's just strictly better from a defensive standpoint. Being a bear is just a bad idea. Brown bear is alright, but by that point the comparative options are even better. I mean, that's when your desmodu bat forms start trading a fourth level spell for 120 foot blindsight for hours/level. Moreover, your casting options are better, so standing in melee is worse. I don't even really understand where you're getting these ideas about the capability of bear forms.

[Darth Stabber]

I don't even really understand where you're getting these ideas about the capability of bear forms.

Experience! Dead enemies don't hit back.

[eggynack]

Experience! Dead enemies don't hit back.
Well, some actual numbers would be nice too. For example, you said, "an bear can take more hits than desmodu bat," which is just a completely inaccurate claim on every level. Basically every bear form has strictly worse defenses than those a desmodu hunting bat has. This remains true when talking about dire bats, though those guys aren't nearly as cool as the desmodu variety. A bear has reasonable punching power, but you're generally going to be somewhere around normal melee levels. I mentioned the monk, because it's a pretty apt comparison. A dedicated melee guy is usually going to out-melee you, so you're dropping yourself by massive levels of power by taking bear form. If you have an actual argument here, you're going to need to substantiate it.

Edit: Here's some quick AC claim substantiation. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the legendary bear is the bear form with the highest AC. I might check in a bit, but whatever. Those guys run 21 AC. A desmodu war bat, which is something you can use by the time you have legendary bear, has 23 AC. It seems rather cut and dry.

[Norin]

I had some success with brown bear form last night in the end of a rather long dungeon.

We had spent alot of resources during some pretty tough encounters before the last boss. The last guy had some serious amount of AC, immunities and resistances (spell and energy) combined with fast healing. So my spells could not hurt him much and my lockdown BFC was all spent.

Wildshaped into brown bear, cast greater magic fang and waded in. Keep in mind i had extended heart of earth up, combined with wild clasped monk's belt and 22 wis. As my temp hp from heart of earth was gone, i released it and got my stoneskin on. This combo gave me a rather tanky setup without having any real resources avialable.

Spent a few rounds trying to get through the bad guy's AC, and when it hit i got him in a grapple. Me, and the wizard (polymorphed into an annis hag) who joined the grapple as soon as i had him, pinned him down and the group finally killed him.

Of course, this was not the only thing that happened during the fight, the rest of the group had done alot of things too. But i just wanted to show you how it can be effective and fun to go bearshape when other things fail. And you do not really need to spend alot of rounds buffing to be viable in melee.

This was a lvl 8 group vs a CR16 BBEG litteraly seconds after finishing a CR10 underling boss.

[eggynack]

I had some success with brown bear form last night in the end of a rather long dungeon.

We had spent alot of resources during some pretty tough encounters before the last boss. The last guy had some serious amount of AC, immunities and resistances (spell and energy) combined with fast healing. So my spells could not hurt him much and my lockdown BFC was all spent.

Wildshaped into brown bear, cast greater magic fang and waded in. Keep in mind i had extended heart of earth up, combined with wild clasped monk's belt and 22 wis. As my temp hp from heart of earth was gone, i released it and got my stoneskin on. This combo gave me a rather tanky setup without having any real resources avialable.

Spent a few rounds trying to get through the bad guy's AC, and when it hit i got him in a grapple. Me, and the wizard (polymorphed into an annis hag) who joined the grapple as soon as i had him, pinned him down and the group finally killed him.

Of course, this was not the only thing that happened during the fight, the rest of the group had done alot of things too. But i just wanted to show you how it can be effective and fun to go bearshape when other things fail. And you do not really need to spend alot of rounds buffing to be viable in melee.

This was a lvl 8 group vs a CR16 BBEG littrealy seconds after finishing a CR10 underling boss.
That's basically what I'm saying. If you're running really low on resources, sure, become a bear. It's probably one of the better direct offensive options you have access to. If you still have resources, you should use those resources, because they're usually better than being a bear, and wading into melee is a low return option. I mean, you had greater magic fang, so you could have tossed that onto your bear AC instead (because you have one of those in my brain.), had him grapple the guy, and still have spells. You had some quantity of slots open, so you could have spontaneously summoned some creatures, used them to attack the enemy, and use the time you got from that to summon more creatures. Seriously, you're at 8th level, so if you have a fourth level slot open, you can just summon a frigging brown bear. Easy, direct, and to the point.

I'm not saying that brown bear is the worst option. It isn't. However, becoming a brown bear and attacking the enemy is also very rarely the best option. That's not even considering the fact that we're not even talking about an 8th level brown bear. We're talking about a 5th level black bear, though he'll presumably be level 6 when he actually starts becoming one. Unlike the noble brown bear, which has actual grappling ability, higher AC, and better attacks, the black bear is medium sized, for crappy grappling, has less AC, so that you die when your mediocre attacks fail, and possibly most importantly, much worse buffing options. I mean, a 9th level brown bear with bite of the weretiger can probably do some real damage. I'd probably rather skip the buff and start tossing out large thomils, or at least animal growth, but at least you're doing real stuff.

Ultimately, the strategy of bearing out will never be as good as it's often claimed to be. It really could never be as good as it's claimed to be, because it's usually touted as a first order druid strategy. It's the first thing you try before falling back on your crappy casting. It just doesn't work that way. Druid casting is a tier one ability. The thing about bats is that bats augment the druid's casting ability by keeping them out of harms way. Bears augment the druid's casting ability by letting you become a frigging fighter. It just seems like a no brainer which one I'm defaulting to.

Edit: Also, you're 8th level, which means that you have 4th level spells. Skip the heart of earth if you're otherwise out of slots, and pick up enhance wild shape. 120 foot blindsight for hours/level is an amazing vision ability. It's generally just better than what other folks can do in terms of vision. I love the heart of X spells to death, especially water, but that's just a ridiculous amount of utility. It's just another reason that bats are better than bears.

[Norin]

Sure.

I think i was out of 4th though. And i had a Dire Wolf AC that could not get through his AC on anything else than a nat 20. Also, sommons\my wolf would have to manage a will dc 26 (?) to even be able to attack the guy (aura of awe or some stuff).

It was a bit of a strange situation really. I hardly use wildshaping on my druid really, but it was sort of a last resort thing that worked very well. And last resorts are what i normaly use wildshape for on this char, if i do not use it for utility. It's a caster focused char.

You give sound advice though, and i must say i agree with alot of what you are saying.


It's just another reason that bats are better than bears.

Because batman! :smallbiggrin:

[Spuddles]

You mention summons and AC, why not add another bear to the mix? Save your spells, breaking things the old fashioned way is easy, and even black bear form is more resilient than you think. Getting brown bear is amazing, turning you from good to great. Realistically you are far better than monk, you are better at fighting and have casting in your pocket ready to go. And brown bear has crazy punching power, especially if you get multiattack. Cats are pretty good, but they are fairly flimsy and can't grapple worth crap and crocs are only good at grappling, leading to bear. Flying forms are flimsier than you are letting on, an bear can take more hits than desmodu bat, and hits way harder. The spells are something you still have, and there is nothing like having an ace like that up your sleeve. Part of it "hidding power" as in getting things done effectively while having a more viscous to fall back, part of it making sure you always have some gas in the tank, and part of it style. Your point of using it as a back-up is valid, but I would rather ramp up than back down.

...I don't think you understand how wildshape works.

[Someonelse]

Something we have taken to doing in my home game is carry bundles of dirt and grass tied together with twine. It's only good for about a day or two so we have to make them fresh regularly. You just go outside and pull up a handfull of turf and roll it up in a ball and tie some twine or string around it to secure it. Each little turf ball will entangle about 5ft, you can throw a few of them at a time and scatter them (I assume they're about the size of golf balls)

For your animal companion. IDK if you have much money, but there is a spell in the spell compendium (i think) called master's touch, have this enchanted on a set of armor and you don't have to worry about proficiency. Or else just get it on a wand or something. I know that spell is for weapons but I think it should apply to armor too.

[eggynack]

Sure.

I think i was out of 4th though. And i had a Dire Wolf AC that could not get through his AC on anything else than a nat 20. Also, sommons\my wolf would have to manage a will dc 26 (?) to even be able to attack the guy (aura of awe or some stuff).

It was a bit of a strange situation really. I hardly use wildshaping on my druid really, but it was sort of a last resort thing that worked very well. And last resorts are what i normaly use wildshape for on this char, if i do not use it for utility. It's a caster focused char.

You give sound advice though, and i must say i agree with alot of what you are saying.
That is an odd set of circumstances indeed. I generally look at wild shape as a reasonably powerful long term buff, which is why desmodu bat form is sweet. If nothing else, the +7 to initiative is a great boon, and adding that on to the +5 from primal instinct means that you're probably always going first. On the AC side, tossing luminous armor on means that you're packing a really solid AC as well. I also believe that desmodu hunting bat has one of the best flight ability among wild shape forms, especially at medium. Offhand, I can't even think of another small or medium animal with good maneuverability, and that's super important because it lets you summon in midair. You can pick up some forms with better flight modes later on, like the air elemental, but that's a lot later, and you miss out on the blindsight that I'd want by that point. Enhance wild shape is amazing like that. However, at a certain point I'm going to stop caring about flight altogether, and am going to want to permanently be a dire tortoise for supreme initiative purposes.

[geekintheground]

is that the one that always goes during the surprise round?

[eggynack]

is that the one that always goes during the surprise round?
That it is. After that, you add on a belt of battle and golden desert honey so you can cast two summoning spells in the surprise round. It's a little resource intensive, but it's pretty frigging sweet, especially if what you're summoning is a pile of rashemi elementals.

[geekintheground]

That it is. After that, you add on a belt of battle and golden desert honey so you can cast two summoning spells in the surprise round. It's a little resource intensive, but it's pretty frigging sweet, especially if what you're summoning is a pile of rashemi elementals.

i'll have to keep that in mind

[eggynack]

i'll have to keep that in mind
It's a pretty sweet plan, though it makes use of a pretty massive amount of sources that you currently lack access to. That set of things is basically the best action economy manipulation that the druid has. Usually, the druid just hits the action economy directly, by summoning creatures such that they multiply their actions by a bunch. Like, casting greater magic fang on yourself is nice, but it's usually only getting a linear advantage. Having a bear animal companion, summoning two giant crocodiles, and casting animal growth on the lot of them, is an advantage of a whole different type.

Most of the stuff I talk about is from books that are not core and the SpC, but it's mostly an addendum to druid power. Out of core, the druid can summon orglashes such that they get enough cones of cold to wipe out entire encounters, and they gain access to items that are actually worthwhile for a druid, but the difference between the two book sets is a bit on the marginal side. A druid making efficient use of their resources will never want for encounter effectiveness. I personally prefer doing nifty splat book stuff like loading obscure and long term buffs onto a desmodu hunting bat, summoning ridiculous amounts of rashemi elementals, and sometimes looking for summoning options out of the fiend folio that most folks never look at. Still, druids operate in a world with every book and perfect item access, and they operate in a world with just core and only mundane items. The key is adaptation, and it's what a druid does best.

[eggynack]

I decided to do a quick confirmation of suspicions, and I believe that there is no small or medium flight form, that isn't the desmodu hunting bat, that has good maneuverability. It's a bit of a tragedy, really. In the absence of that form, I believe that the best flight form is the dire hawk, also from MM II. They're rather like an eagle, except they have better AC and initiative. You might be stuck without easily accessible midair summoning until a later level. By the by, does "all monster manuals" mean any source that has monsters in it? If so, things get a bit more interesting. They don't get more interesting by a massive amount, but the fiend folio has some decent summoning options, so that might be neat.

[Killer Angel]

I'm totally with spuddles on this one:




Wild Shaping into an animal may give you the natural attacks and ability scores of one, but it also destroys your AC, which means you will die fast. It also doesn't give you any feats for fighting, and with 3/4 BAB, you aren't going to be landing many attacks. Just turning into a black bear and wandering into the front lines will get you slaughtered. Even trying to pounce in as a fleshraker will get you dead.

In order for Wild Shaping to be viable, you need to put buffs up on yourself. Luckily you can share thee with your animal companion so there's a considerable amount of spell slot efficiency there, so long as the two of you don't move more than 5ft away from one another.

However, with your feats and level, use wild shape and natural spell to fly above the battle field and cast spells onto it. Summon Nature's Ally is pretty good at getting bruisers. Dire Wolves trip and Giant Crocodiles grapple.

To be good as frontliner in wildshape, you need boosts (spells / objects and wildling clasps), and as a 5th level, you won't have many.
at low levels, wildshape is great for other things, and in combat, it's better to be an eagle, to stay in a secure place and to summon your advanced allies.
Battlefield controls helps a lot: there's nothing like a sleet storm, while your summoned elemental can hit the blinded enemies.

[Leon]

i can access all monster manuals, the PHB and spell compendium for sure (which i'll put in the OP). anything else i have to ask for and is doubtful. i like the ape, but if by 9th lvl he hasnt started to shine as much as i had imagined i probably will get the riding dog.

If you like the ape then keep the ape and stuff the optimal junk where it belongs ~ in a footlocker at the bottom of a deep hole. While not having the same array of spells that a cleric gets the druid still has access to some fantastic party buffs. Wild shape and its natural spell shenanigans are overrated and over suggested. They can have a time and a place but its not ideal for every character (I have a druid that I had planned to be a melee monster in with the share shift variant ~ the group has 8 players of which 5 are melee focused, no bigy as a druid is so versatile spell support is as easy as pie to do and have a chance to maul things every so often.)

The class has so many options to it that pigeon holing yourself into one aspect is a massive waste to what it can do (played many druids and I have never taken the feat natural spell once ~ have better things to choose at lvl 6 and its not made my characters any less power full for not having it)
Its biggest and best strength is being a full caster with a different and interesting spell list, the pet and animal shapes are just icing on a very rich cake.

[eggynack]

If you like the ape then keep the ape and stuff the optimal junk where it belongs ~ in a footlocker at the bottom of a deep hole. While not having the same array of spells that a cleric gets the druid still has access to some fantastic party buffs. Wild shape and its natural spell shenanigans are overrated and over suggested. They can have a time and a place but its not ideal for every character (I have a druid that I had planned to be a melee monster in with the share shift variant ~ the group has 8 players of which 5 are melee focused, no bigy as a druid is so versatile spell support is as easy as pie to do and have a chance to maul things every so often.)

The class has so many options to it that pigeon holing yourself into one aspect is a massive waste to what it can do (played many druids and I have never taken the feat natural spell once ~ have better things to choose at lvl 6 and its not made my characters any less power full for not having it)
Its biggest and best strength is being a full caster with a different and interesting spell list, the pet and animal shapes are just icing on a very rich cake.
How exactly is natural spell not an excellent choice? It doesn't have to make you a melee monster for it to be completely wonderful all the time. I've talked about the desmodu hunting bat a lot, but you should really think about it as an extremely powerful utility buff that you always have on. It gets you up to 20 AC, +7 initiative, and a 60 foot (good) flight speed, and can basically do so all day. Without natural spell, that set of statistical upgrades might as well just not be available to you. Natural spell turns wild shape from a purely utility ability that you activate when you need it, into an actual hours/level buff. I'm not going to spend all day as a bat without spells over a human with spells, so flying around as a bat all day without natural spell is barely even an option.

This also isn't even considering the fact that this lets you cast spells while diving underwater for a basically infinite amount of time, and in the middle of a burrowing trip, and yes, while clawing at your opponent from bear form. Taking natural spell Doesn't pigeonhole you into a certain style of play. It allows you to access a wider variety of things. If you want to say that natural spell isn't necessary for a druid to be powerful, you're completely right. Druids are tier one, and that remains true even without what is effectively a massive number of persistent buffs. However, if you want to claim that natural spell doesn't make druids more powerful, and that there are so many better options that you wouldn't always take it at 6th if your goal was power, you're completely wrong. It is an incredibly potent feat, with a remarkable variety of uses, and calling it anything else is just inaccurate.

[hoverfrog]

Get some feather tokens that turn into trees. The battlefield now features an enormous source for your entangle spell.

What is it that you wish to achieve?
Buff your party meat shields with Bull's Strength. Heat metal on the enemy armour.
Better battlefield control? There are plenty of druid spells for that: Obscuring mist, gust of wind, entangle, soften earth and stone, sleet storm, spike growth. Use the environment against your enemies.
Scouting? You can wild shape. In a city a stray dog, cat or pigeon will be largely ignored. In the wilderness any common animal will be ignored and will blend in naturally. Try skunk to avoid predators mistaking you for dinner. You can talk to plants and animals to gather information about enemy forces. They may not be smart but they are still observant. You also have pass without trace for your allies and trackless step for you. Nobody will be able to find you. Take an animal companion like the Dire Bat for aerial recon.
Melee combat? That's not your job but you can still contribute with your summoned animals, wild shape and offensive spells like call lightning and produce flame.
Healing? Not your primary job but you can still contribute. Goodberry is a great spell to cast when you have down time to stock up on healing.

The strength of a druid is that it is so versatile. You have a reasonable amount of skill points, not great but enough to sink a few into knowledge (nature) and survival so that you're the expert on animals (unless there's a ranger) and the wilds. It depends on the game you're in of course. If you're playing a courtly intrigue campaign then a druid is the odd man out but even in an urban campaign you have much to offer. Typically a D&D game will involve travelling through forests at least once in a while and that's where your strength really shows. Know what your facing and prepare accordingly. Even against undead you're not bad, better than the party rogue anyway.

[Leon]

How exactly is natural spell not an excellent choice? It doesn't have to make you a melee monster for it to be completely wonderful all the time. I've talked about the desmodu hunting bat a lot, but you should really think about it as an extremely powerful utility buff that you always have on. It gets you up to 20 AC, +7 initiative, and a 60 foot (good) flight speed, and can basically do so all day. Without natural spell, that set of statistical upgrades might as well just not be available to you. Natural spell turns wild shape from a purely utility ability that you activate when you need it, into an actual hours/level buff. I'm not going to spend all day as a bat without spells over a human with spells, so flying around as a bat all day without natural spell is barely even an option.

This also isn't even considering the fact that this lets you cast spells while diving underwater for a basically infinite amount of time, and in the middle of a burrowing trip, and yes, while clawing at your opponent from bear form. Taking natural spell Doesn't pigeonhole you into a certain style of play. It allows you to access a wider variety of things. If you want to say that natural spell isn't necessary for a druid to be powerful, you're completely right. Druids are tier one, and that remains true even without what is effectively a massive number of persistent buffs. However, if you want to claim that natural spell doesn't make druids more powerful, and that there are so many better options that you wouldn't always take it at 6th if your goal was power, you're completely wrong. It is an incredibly potent feat, with a remarkable variety of uses, and calling it anything else is just inaccurate.

There in is its problem, its too good that many can't not use it. Yet its not needed to make a good druid. Strip the pet and forms out and it is no less a good class. Its quite possibly a better class losing one or the other and keeping the spellcasting (the most powerful feature) separate from the other roles.

[Feilith]

There in is its problem, its too good that many can't not use it. Yet its not needed to make a good druid. Strip the pet and forms out and it is no less a good class. Its quite possibly a better class losing one or the other and keeping the spellcasting (the most powerful feature) separate from the other roles.

Nope, each aspect of a druid is important to its play. A druids casting is easily its best aspect but when compared to the true caster of the game, a wizard, a druids spell list just doesnt stack up. The reason is, divine casting is just not as good at everything as arcane casting is, thats why all the divine classes have some other class mechanic that compensates for their not as over-the-top power. Hell clerics get armor and decent HD and turning. The druid gets a melee threat from its animal companion at low levels and its equivalent to armor through wildshape

[ShriekingDrake]

Nope, each aspect of a druid is important to its play. A druids casting is easily its best aspect but when compared to the true caster of the game, a wizard, a druids spell list just doesnt stack up. The reason is, divine casting is just not as good at everything as arcane casting is, thats why all the divine classes have some other class mechanic that compensates for their not as over-the-top power. Hell clerics get armor and decent HD and turning. The druid gets a melee threat from its animal companion at low levels and its equivalent to armor through wildshape

I don't disagree with this. That said, the Wizard is less likely to make it to level 10 than the druid, precisely because the druid is so much more versatile than the wizard. So, it is useful to cultivate that versatility.

[eggynack]

There in is its problem, its too good that many can't not use it. Yet its not needed to make a good druid. Strip the pet and forms out and it is no less a good class. Its quite possibly a better class losing one or the other and keeping the spellcasting (the most powerful feature) separate from the other roles.
You do see how these two things you're saying are completely contradictory, right? If natural spell is, "too good," then losing it causes the druid to be, "less a good class." It does not make the druid a better class, losing those other abilities, unless you actually mean a more balanced class, which is the opposite.

[hoverfrog]

Anyway, what kind of encounters do you feel that you aren't contributing much to? You're never going to deal out the kind of melee damage round on round that a barbarian with a great axe or a fighter loaded up with feats is going to but at low level a shillelagh will make your damage per round reasonable. You're never going to be able to do the kind of damage that a wizard with Fireball can do in one round.

[Norin]

Anyway, what kind of encounters do you feel that you aren't contributing much to? You're never going to deal out the kind of melee damage round on round that a barbarian with a great axe or a fighter loaded up with feats is going to but at low level a shillelagh will make your damage per round reasonable. You're never going to be able to do the kind of damage that a wizard with Fireball can do in one round.

Fireball caps out at 10d6 while a Flame Strike caps at 15d6. Of course he can outdamage a wizard with blasting if he wants to. It's of course a matter of metamagic feats and such though.

[eggynack]

Fireball caps out at 10d6 while a Flame Strike caps at 15d6. Of course he can outdamage a wizard with blasting if he wants to. It's of course a matter of metamagic feats and such though.
Eh, we're talking about a whole spell level of difference with that one. Wizards tend to be a bit better at blasting, if only for the sheer versatility of it. I mean, by the time we're talking about flame strike, it's less fireball, and more orb of fire. Blasting isn't really the best thing though, and there are some better points of comparison anyway. For example, splinterbolt is basically scorching ray, and that spell is one of the few blasting spells that are worthwhile. It has downsides, but it also has a few upsides, and I'm a fan.

The other best blasting options are elemental based. In particular, we'd be talking about the storm elemental from MM III, which can shoot a fireball like thing before going to town on the enemy, and we'd be talking about orglashes from UE, which have 3/day cones of cold with d6's equal to their HD. It maxes out at huge, but most things max out at huge, so I like huge best anyways. You're pulling 15d6 points of cold damage in three consecutive rounds, and if you make use of some resources, you can launch several orglashes at once. You can even do that in the surprise round, if you have dire tortoise form. The basic number that's pretty easy to reach is 2d4+2, which comes from using a belt of battle and golden desert honey to launch two maxed out summons in a round. Even if the cones don't murder everything in a round, maybe because the enemy is cold resistant, you still have a massive swarm of elementals that usually last a whole encounter. Ultimately, summoning is how I prefer to hit good damage quantities on a druid.

[Darth Stabber]

Well, some actual numbers would be nice too. For example, you said, "an bear can take more hits than desmodu bat," which is just a completely inaccurate claim on every level. Basically every bear form has strictly worse defenses than those a desmodu hunting bat has. This remains true when talking about dire bats, though those guys aren't nearly as cool as the desmodu variety. A bear has reasonable punching power, but you're generally going to be somewhere around normal melee levels. I mentioned the monk, because it's a pretty apt comparison. A dedicated melee guy is usually going to out-melee you, so you're dropping yourself by massive levels of power by taking bear form. If you have an actual argument here, you're going to need to substantiate it.

Edit: Here's some quick AC claim substantiation. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that the legendary bear is the bear form with the highest AC. I might check in a bit, but whatever. Those guys run 21 AC. A desmodu war bat, which is something you can use by the time you have legendary bear, has 23 AC. It seems rather cut and dry.

The point is that the bats are not hitting as hard, AC maximization is a losing battle. Not getting killed isn't winning, killing the enemy is winning. So don't mix up my point, the idea is killing, not turtling, bats are obviously better at turtling, but turtling doesn't win fights. Obviously if you are focused on casting, flying around as a bat is advantageous, but if slitting throats is your goal, you can do better.


...I don't think you understand how wildshape works.

How so? What am I missing


Anyway, what kind of encounters do you feel that you aren't contributing much to? You're never going to deal out the kind of melee damage round on round that a barbarian with a great axe or a fighter loaded up with feats is going to but at low level a shillelagh will make your damage per round reasonable. You're never going to be able to do the kind of damage that a wizard with Fireball can do in one round.

Actually druid is a passable blaster at mid to high levels, he's not as good as sorcerer, but he puts the whole thing in a more resilient package and better back-up plans.

Now having said that, blasters aren't all that good without some serious optimization. Just having a flamestrike in your back pocket does give you a powerful broom for cleaning up messes of weaker minions (in the session I ran last week the druid wiped 15 dudes with one flamstrike), but generally melee is going to be a more efficient source of damage, whether that be you or a fighter.

The reason sorcerers are good at blasting is a combination of better blasts and metamagic shenanigans. Wizards can access 99% of the same stuff, but have better things to do. You have only slightly worse spell access (better than cleric) but no access to their metamagic cheese, which means you can't rely on it nearly as much (and it's harder for you to get around SR, which arcanists and clerics have tricks).

[eggynack]

The point is that the bats are not hitting as hard, AC maximization is a losing battle. Not getting killed isn't winning, killing the enemy is winning. So don't mix up my point, the idea is killing, not turtling, bats are obviously better at turtling, but turtling doesn't win fights. Obviously if you are focused on casting, flying around as a bat is advantageous, but if slitting throats is your goal, you can do better.

AC maximization is a losing battle. AC maximization as a side effect of doing incredibly powerful things is a winning battle. You're constantly flying around, pulling an effective 29 AC against melee attacks when you put regular luminous armor on, and that's just the frigging start. Turtling doesn't win fights, unless you're a druid. Druids win fights by turtling all the time. It's called summoning a bear so that you don't have to be the bear. It's called tossing animal growth onto a cluster of summons so that your bears can win the fight for you without further intervention. It's called casting something as lame as call lightning, just so that you can directly convert rounds into damage. Why would a druid have the goal of slitting throats? They're druids. Druids are incredibly powerful, and they don't get that way by being a bear all the time. They can be a bear, and the fact that they always have that option is fantastic, but it's not a primary solution, and it's not a good druid's default form. You also get crazy initiative, by the way, and that's gotta help out a lot.



How so? What am I missing
You seem to think that a bear is more resilient than a bat in any way. You are wrong, so there must be a mistake in your understanding somewhere. A bear can kill faster, which means that you're less likely to die in a protracted melee combat, but if a random enemy just hits you a given amount of times, the bear will always have a higher probability of death, with all other things being equal.

[Darth Stabber]

AC maximization is a losing battle. AC maximization as a side effect of doing incredibly powerful things is a winning battle. You're constantly flying around, pulling an effective 29 AC against melee attacks when you put regular luminous armor on, and that's just the frigging start. Turtling doesn't win fights, unless you're a druid. Druids win fights by turtling all the time. It's called summoning a bear so that you don't have to be the bear. It's called tossing animal growth onto a cluster of summons so that your bears can win the fight for you without further intervention. It's called casting something as lame as call lightning, just so that you can directly convert rounds into damage. Why would a druid have the goal of slitting throats? They're druids. Druids are incredibly powerful, and they don't get that way by being a bear all the time. They can be a bear, and the fact that they always have that option is fantastic, but it's not a primary solution, and it's not a good druid's default form. You also get crazy initiative, by the way, and that's gotta help out a lot.

Obviously picking the right form for the right job is important. But my point was that bear is the "lets get this combat resolved now" form. And even if you are an unhittable bat, your companions are unlikely to be nearly so resilient, so your HP isn't the limiting factor, theirs is.


You seem to think that a bear is more resilient than a bat in any way. You are wrong, so there must be a mistake in your understanding somewhere. A bear can kill faster, which means that you're less likely to die in a protracted melee combat, but if a random enemy just hits you a given amount of times, the bear will always have a higher probability of death, with all other things being equal.

Protracted melee introduces too many random factors, ending it with a sense of urgency is valuable because it minimizes risks. A bear is resilient enough to take a few hits, and hits back hard. The bat is harder to kill, but hard to kill isn't that useful on it's own.

[eggynack]

Obviously picking the right form for the right job is important. But my point was that bear is the "lets get this combat resolved now" form. And even if you are an unhittable bat, your companions are unlikely to be nearly so resilient, so your HP isn't the limiting factor, theirs is.
A bear form just shouldn't be the form you're usually in. Ultimately, we're comparing a form that helps melee with a form that helps magic. I'm pretty frigging certain of the one I'm choosing of the two. Also, a druid in bear form is a terrible tank. Their AC is in the toilet without a serious number of buff spells and items. A druid can tank, but they tank by having a disposable animal companion, and a pile of disposable minions. They also stop their party members from dying by tossing out piles of battlefield control, and casting other useful spells. Spells are going to do more to stop your friends from getting killed than standing in the way will. That's just how magic works.



Protracted melee introduces too many random factors, ending it with a sense of urgency is valuable because it minimizes risks. A bear is resilient enough to take a few hits, and hits back hard. The bat is harder to kill, but hard to kill isn't that useful on it's own.
Let's just be clear here. You said:

Flying forms are flimsier than you are letting on, an bear can take more hits than desmodu bat.
I'm saying that this is completely inaccurate, and I'm asking you to substantiate the claim. By what metric is a bear anywhere close to resilient? How is a bat anywhere close to flimsy? How is being hard to kill not that useful when you're a druid? Seriously, you're a tier one class. Start acting like it. Druids didn't get to the top of the power curve by emulating a fighter.

[Darth Stabber]

A bear form just shouldn't be the form you're usually in. Ultimately, we're comparing a form that helps melee with a form that helps magic. I'm pretty frigging certain of the one I'm choosing of the two. Also, a druid in bear form is a terrible tank. Their AC is in the toilet without a serious number of buff spells and items. A druid can tank, but they tank by having a disposable animal companion, and a pile of disposable minions. They also stop their party members from dying by tossing out piles of battlefield control, and casting other useful spells. Spells are going to do more to stop your friends from getting killed than standing in the way will. That's just how magic works.


Let's just be clear here. You said:

I'm saying that this is completely inaccurate, and I'm asking you to substantiate the claim. By what metric is a bear anywhere close to resilient? How is a bat anywhere close to flimsy? How is being hard to kill not that useful when you're a druid? Seriously, you're a tier one class. Start acting like it. Druids didn't get to the top of the power curve by emulating a fighter.

Yeah, the inconsistancy is the result of rereading the desmodu bats, they are much tougher than I remembered (I thought their con was significantly lower than it actually is), but tough is not strong. And when druid emulates fighter, he does it better. With all your buffs and animal forms on top, you have the power, and with natural spell you can do spells while doing so.

[eggynack]

Yeah, the inconsistancy is the result of rereading the desmodu bats, they are much tougher than I remembered (I thought their con was significantly lower than it actually is), but tough is not strong. And when druid emulates fighter, he does it better. With all your buffs and animal forms on top, you have the power, and with natural spell you can do spells while doing so.
I don't really know what the bat's high constitution has to do with anything. Wild shape's HP isn't determined by animal constitution at all. I'd actually figured that that was the point of inconsistency. Anyways, you're not really emulating a fighter by that much better by being a bear. In particular, the free nature of bear fighting is partially obviated by the fact that you're apparently spending spells to get to that point. Luminous armor is cheap, as are a lot of the hours/level buffs I'd toss on, but the really good stuff, stuff like bite of the were X, is really frigging expensive. You're casting that spell every combat, when you could just make your own bear, or buff your bear animal companion, and be done with it. There are cheaper and less risky ways to get the effect you're seeking. Also, enhance wild shape for blindsight is frigging amazing. That effect can make bats better than bears all on its own.

[Norin]

Eh, we're talking about a whole spell level of difference with that one. Wizards tend to be a bit better at blasting, if only for the sheer versatility of it. I mean, by the time we're talking about flame strike, it's less fireball, and more orb of fire. Blasting isn't really the best thing though, and there are some better points of comparison anyway. For example, splinterbolt is basically scorching ray, and that spell is one of the few blasting spells that are worthwhile. It has downsides, but it also has a few upsides, and I'm a fan.


I agree, but the post i quoted said that you never would be able to outdamage a wizard casting a fireball. That's all. My example wasn't the best possible blasting ever just a "off the top of my head" example of how you could easily outdamage a fireball if you wanted to. And at lower levels you can also outdamage a wizard casting fireball with other damage spells on the druid list.

But arguing over fireball damage is rather silly, because fireball isn't exactly the peak of a wizard's power at any given level is it now?

;)

Edit:

A little afterthought to the above:
If you somehow can extend creeping cold (lesser metamagic rod) at lvl 3 you are doing 21d6, right? All you need to do, is stay away from the target for 6 rounds. Entangle comes to mind. It's not hard to do damage as a caster Druid at even low levels.

[eggynack]

I agree, but the post i quoted said that you never would be able to outdamage a wizard casting a fireball. That's all. My example wasn't the best possible blasting ever just a "off the top of my head" example of how you could easily outdamage a fireball if you wanted to. And at lower levels you can also outdamage a wizard casting fireball with other damage spells on the druid list.

But arguing over fireball damage is rather silly, because fireball isn't exactly the peak of a wizard's power at any given level is it now?

;)
Yeah, true enough. There's just a crazy amount of stuff that wizards are great at that druids can't even touch. It's why they're on the same tier, despite druids getting just about every possible advantage when you're not talking about their comparative lists. Anyways, I don't even know why this is a thing that I'd even want to emulate. It's the same problem I have with bear form. A druid can be a warmage or barbarian if they want to, but why would they want to? It's like you're lowering yourself to crappy power levels. I still like splinterbolt though. That spell is just a pile of cool beans. The ultimate meaning of all of these words is that I agree with you, though there are some notable blasting options available for a druid that wants to blast.

[Killer Angel]

The bat is harder to kill, but hard to kill isn't that useful on it's own.

On its own, no. But it's the starting point.
A wizard uses some spells to become "hard to kill", then wins the fights.
A druid uses its wildshape to assume a form that's hard to kill, then wins the fights.

[hoverfrog]

On its own, no. But it's the starting point.
A wizard uses some spells to become "hard to kill", then wins the fights.
A druid uses its wildshape to assume a form that's hard to kill, then wins the fights.You're a spell caster. If you're going into fights then you're doing something wrong. Big, dumb fighters go into fights. Casters keep their distance and buff up the big, dumb fighters. They split the battlefield up so that their big, dumb fighters aren't overwhelmed and the enemy can't get round them to attack the vulnerable glass cannons at the back. If the big, dumb fighter falls you can plug the gap for a round or two but it really isn't your job. Running away is an altogether better option.

[Killer Angel]

You're a spell caster. If you're going into fights then you're doing something wrong. Big, dumb fighters go into fights. Casters keep their distance and buff up the big, dumb fighters. They split the battlefield up so that their big, dumb fighters aren't overwhelmed and the enemy can't get round them to attack the vulnerable glass cannons at the back. If the big, dumb fighter falls you can plug the gap for a round or two but it really isn't your job. Running away is an altogether better option.

Not my point: mine is that casters keep their distance and buffs their defences (the “hard to kill” part).

However, a wizard can enter melee and shred enemies to pieces, if she chooses so (say hello to the polymorph line)

[Norin]

Not my point: mine is that casters keep their distance and buffs their defences (the “hard to kill” part).

However, a wizard can enter melee and shred enemies to pieces, if she chooses so (say hello to the polymorph line)

The beauty of the druid or cleric is that they indeed are full casters, but do not need to focus on staying back and buffing at all.

What makes you think a wizard is the only caster that can do this?

- DMM persist cleric (a caster) has no big issues with "shredding enemies to pieces" in melee.
- A wildshape focused druid (a caster too!) has no issues with it either. Buffs/wildclasped items/feats can turn a druid into a melee monster quite capable of doing what alot of polymorphed wizards do.
- Archivist too can do the cleric thing.
- Sorcerer can have the same polymorph line as the wizard.
- etc?

[Killer Angel]

The beauty of the druid or cleric is that they indeed are full casters, but do not need to focus on staying back and buffing at all.

What makes you think a wizard is the only caster that can do this?

- DMM persist cleric (a caster) has no big issues with "shredding enemies to pieces" in melee.
- A wildshape focused druid (a caster too!) has no issues with it either. Buffs/wildclasped items/feats can turn a druid into a melee monster quite capable of doing what alot of polymorphed wizards do.
- Archivist too can do the cleric thing.
- Sorcerer can have the same polymorph line as the wizard.
- etc?

:smallsigh:
Am I explaining myself so poorly?

The initial point, was, basically "it's better to wildshape in a form with good defences and versatility, rathen than one with poor defences".
The objection was "Not getting killed isn't winning, killing the enemy is winning. Defence alone won't suffice".

Of course not. But to win an ancounter, while remaining alive in the process, you need also a good defence. It's the first step.
The druid will use wildshape, looking at the most useful forms.
The Clerzilla will defend with armor and DMM buffs.
The wizard / sorc /whatever, will use defensive triks ala miss chance, and so on.

Then, you proceed with the second part of the plan "kill the enemies".
You will hit them with spells from a safe distance, or buffing your allies, or summoning monsters, or killing 'em by yourself in melee (with further buffs), or you can choose a combination of these tactics, and so on.

SO, the conclusion remains the same of the initial point: "it's better to wildshape in a form with good defences and versatility, rathen than one with poor defences". Coz it helps to stay alive and to be more effective, while you kill the enemy.