Various ideas (including rebalancing magic)

[gr8artist]

I need to discuss some balance changes I'm leaning toward for my next campaign.

Spellcasting time changes. Spells will now require a number of consecutive full-round-actions equal to the spell's level. Arcane spell failure is checked once for the entire duration. Metamagic adjusts the spell's slot, but not casting time. Quicken spell cuts the required time in half. This will make it a lot easier to interrupt spellcasters, who will probably need bodyguards.
To balance this caster nerf, spell DC's will increase. The new formula will be [10]+[Ability Mod]+[2x Spell Level]. This will give a solid buff to high-end spells (which will take the better part of a minute to cast) while not buffing low end spells (which will take just a round or two) too much.
Ability score generation and growth. We're going to use a low point-buy, and since this is PF, we'll probably opt for 10. But, ability score increases will come at every even level, not every 4th. This gives the players more control over their character, and lends itself to the idea of "growing into" a competent adventurer... which leads to my next point.
Early levels will be taken from NPC classes. At a certain point in the story, these can be retrained for PC levels with similar themes. (expert to rogue/bard, warrior to fighter/barbarian, etc...). The only trick is the Adept... You choose the spell list you want to use (cleric/druid/wizard/etc.) and use all the casting rules for your planned class, except you use the spells/day table found in the Adept. Commoner levels can be retrained to anything.
We'll be using the barter system. The setting is post-apocalyptic, so food is really valuable. I'm not... yet... sure how I want to do this. Perhaps the easiest would be to assign a new value to everything and just use trades instead of actual currency. But, this means I'd have to change the crafting rules too...

So, opinions? Concerns?
I also need to know if anyone has a link to PF's rules for starvation/dehydration.

[Andezzar]

Spellcasting time changes. Spells will now require a number of consecutive full-round-actions equal to the spell's level. Arcane spell failure is checked once for the entire duration. Metamagic adjusts the spell's slot, but not casting time. Quicken spell cuts the required time in half. This will make it a lot easier to interrupt spellcasters, who will probably need bodyguards.This will make it very unenjoyable for people to play casters, because they will basically be doing nothing for 1-8 rounds. There are not many ways to hinder the opposition to simply walk by the "bodyguards" and attack the "sitting duck" caster. The increased DCs will most likely hurt the PCs more than the opposition.

[Devronq]

Sorry but i think the huge huge casting time isn't the way to go. I think alot of people agree that if you want to fix spell casting you should go something like this.
-Metamagic effects always cost +1 minimum
-Range of spells is reduced
close 25ft+5ft/2level
medium 50ft+5ft/level
long 100ft+10ft/level
-If a spell deals elemental damage then spell resistance applies (so the orb of X line of spells have spell resistance)
-specific spells should be rewritten to be more fair (scrying, wish, save or die/suck)

Theres probably other things you could do but something like this is probably a better way to balance spell casting.

[Andezzar]

-Metamagic effects always cost +1 minimumI would not go that far, just limit the cost to +1 if metamagic reducers are used. If there are metamagics that add +0 or even less, leave it a t that.


-Range of spells is reduced
close 25ft+5ft/2level
medium 50ft+5ft/level
long 100ft+10ft/levelJust enforce spot checks for targeting. The -1/10ft. gets pretty hard at distances in the long range anyways unless the caster employs other spells.


-If a spell deals elemental damage then spell resistance applies (so the orb of X line of spells have spell resistance)Why? There are other good spells that are not blocked by SR. If you get hit by mundane fire/acid/etc. you don't get SR either.


-specific spells should be rewritten to be more fair (scrying, wish, save or die/suck)Not sure what you mean by that. What's unfair about those spells?

[Psyren]

I also need to know if anyone has a link to PF's rules for starvation/dehydration.

Starvation and Thirst (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/environmental-rules#TOC-Starvation-and-Thirst)

If you want to balance casters better, remove the T1 and T2 casters as options. For example, instead of Sorcerers, use Magician Bards, instead of Wizards and Witches, use Staff Hex Magi, instead of clerics use Preacher Inquisitors etc.

As others have said, the casting time thing isn't fun and you are better off just banning casters entirely rather than implementing something so heavy-handed.

[Vedhin]

In order:

The spellcasting change is going to be really bad for casters at higher levels, as they essentially sit there doing nothing for however many rounds.

The DC change will hurt the PCs more, as they attempt more saving throws than monsters.

This is... not good. The lower the point buy, the better the casters get and the worse mundanes get. I've seen somewhere calculations about how the minimum score a caster needs in their casting stat is 11 or so, as by level increases and WBL can keep up at every level but 3rd. Also, since you're hitting casters with the nerfbat, they get to sit and do nothing while the understatted mundanes get slaughtered.

This is odd, butit sounds doable. Something to watch out for is skills, as if you can keep the experts any 10 skills Iaijutsu Focus and such will be great choices.

I'd give new values to things personally, and changing the Craft rules is a good idea anyway as they're pretty messed up to begin with.

I apologize if this came across as overly critical or negative.

[JusticeZero]

Honestly I find that spellcasters are hard to balance. The issues run way too deep for a quick fix. Also, a lot of people won't figure out how to make a spellcaster be consistently overpowered in real play, and any nerfs are going to clobber them - especially since people usually nerf the wrong things.

Regarding barter, the main issue is going to be that bags of rice are a lot heavier than coins, and so you're going to be hauling wagonloads around. Crafting isn't an issue - before, it was "time plus 1000 gp = item", now it's "trade two carts of cheese and twenty cows to the gemcutter for gems, add time, = item".

Understand that adventurers regularly traffic in mindboggling sums of money, and don't do strange things to your economy to "balance" that out. In real world terms, low-mid level adventurers think nothing of dropping $100,000USD on special ammunition, and high level adventurers budgets resemble the military budgets of small nations with nuclear capacities. That doesn't mean it should cost everyone a thousand dollars to buy a cheeseburger.

In your case, since you are defining money as food, you will need to be comfortable with the fact that because they are adventurers, they will very rapidly - say, by level 4 - be trying to sort out the logistics of hauling around the contents of a supermarket with them as currency.

[Andezzar]

In your case, since you are defining money as food, you will need to be comfortable with the fact that because they are adventurers, they will very rapidly - say, by level 4 - be trying to sort out the logistics of hauling around the contents of a supermarket with them as currency.If food is considered money, having access to Create Food And Water (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createFoodAndWater.htm) is like having your own mint.

I forgot another problem with increased casting times: targeting. You better also make the rules change that targets are only assigned at the end of the casting. Otherwise many spells become useless because they do not hit anyone.

[Psyren]

I forgot another problem with increased casting times: targeting. You better also make the rules change that targets are only assigned at the end of the casting. Otherwise many spells become useless because they do not hit anyone.

Actually, that's not a rules change - that's specifically how targeting works. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime)



Casting Time

Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a {swift or immediate} action.
...
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

[Andezzar]

disregard then.

[Big Fau]

Spellcasting itself isn't broken. The spells are, and those have to be fixed one-by-one in order to provide balance. Spells are too versatile to just apply a wide-scale change to the spellcasting system and expect it to be balanced.

Besides, your increase in casting time makes Duskblades, Bards, and other Tier 3 casters nigh unto unplayable.

[Psyren]

Spellcasting itself isn't broken. The spells are, and those have to be fixed one-by-one in order to provide balance. Spells are too versatile to just apply a wide-scale change to the spellcasting system and expect it to be balanced.

Besides, your increase in casting time makes Duskblades, Bards, and other Tier 3 casters nigh unto unplayable.

Excellent point - gishing becomes utterly unusable under this system. Even level 1 buffs take a minimum of a full round per buff before the caster can launch his attack.

[Cheiromancer]

These measures seem like overkill. A gentler approach may be sufficient to help prevent characters from breaking the game by accident.

For example, with tier 1 and 2 classes, it may be sufficient to require they multiclass in a way that sacrifices spellcasting progression; they must give up one level by level 10, and then enough so that they wait until level 20 to have 9th level spells. This doesn't prevent them from breaking the game if they really want to, but it takes some wind out of their sails.

If you use a lower point-buy, give a few more points to the lower tier classes. If they multi-class into an upper tier they'll have to recalculate their scores, but that shouldn't be too hard.

Adding ability increases every even level will really help characters who rely on a single ability score. You might specify that consecutive ability increases cannot affect the same ability score.

Or you might want to look at some of the E6 variants. (Is the pathfinder version called P6, or is it the psionics only version of E6?) A lot of people find that solves their problems with unbalanced magic.

[cerin616]

Seeing as balancing spells is a common desire, i have a question, has there ever been a full list compiled of everything that is broken about spells and spell casters? I mean everything, and somewhat specific?

[Andezzar]

Seeing as balancing spells is a common desire, i have a question, has there ever been a full list compiled of everything that is broken about spells and spell casters? I mean everything, and somewhat specific?No. The problem is that most likely two different people will consider different things broken.

[cerin616]

well great, they can both go on the list.

[Gavinfoxx]

It sounds like you want to play Legend. They rewrote every spell, you know.

http://ruleofcool.com/

[gr8artist]

Thank you for all of the responses.
I had forgotten how boring it would be to stand still, channeling for round after round... I still like the idea of increased casting times... perhaps 1 round for low-tier spells, 2 rounds for mid-tier spells, and 3 rounds for high-tier spells? The save DC bonuses will be specifically for spells, not SLA's or other abilities. Spells are the artillery of DnD.
Alternatively, I could limit the casters' spells/day (and possibly some other spell-based qualities such as caster level, range, Save DC), and allow this to be overcome by channeling. So a wizard with a normal spells/day allotment of 5/4/2 would get 3/2/1 normal and 2/2/1 channeled. Channeled spells would require a more difficult investment, but would also allow the caster to function at maximum power.
Giving more points to lower-tier classes sounds like a solid plan. Since they're going to be starting with NPC levels, and their first few challenges will be non-combat, I think it'll be safe to let them be a little on the weak side. Once they re-train into PC levels, they get stat upgrades based on how many levels they took in low-tier classes...
So, if player A goes [Adept 4 into Wizard 4], he gets no bonus points (though he would still have the ability score +1's he got at lvl 2 and lvl 4).
Player B opts for [Adept 2/Expert 2 into Sorc 2/Rog 2], he gets 4 bonus points, which he can spend via point buy, as though at character creation. This is in addition to the +1's from 2/4.
Player C opts for [Warrior 4 into Monk 4], he gets 8 bonus points, for a total point buy of 18, plus his level-up bonuses.
I'm going to try and force the players to be at least a little well-rounded... Single-role flunkies in heavy armor with no usable skills will quickly feel like dead weight. Hopefully this is all the incentive I need for them to not min/max the +1/2 levels bonus. I don't want them to have to remember what their last bonus was in.
When I say that food is the currency or backbone of the economy, what I mean is: people judge an item's value by how long it will help to sustain their life. An couple of arrows might be the equivalent of a single family's meal. A potion of bull's strength will help through one fight, one day. Armor will keep you alive through a lot, it will cost a ton of money.
The players won't be paying for things in rations after level 2. But any kind of mundane trade is going to boil down to an objects actual worth. Gold, gems, and bits of history are worthless in the real world. Shopkeepers will want things of practical value. Only in the wealthiest and most indulgent societies will the players be able to hock an old relic or knick-knack; if an object has no useful purpose, it's worth as much as a well-painted rock.
I ran a post-apocalyptic Scion game 2 years ago, and the primary currency was bullets. Knives and machetes were valued for hunting and saving ammo, while shotgun shells were valued for emergencies and gang-warfare. Pretty things were collected by eccentrics, but weren't worth anything in the open market.

[Andezzar]

I had forgotten how boring it would be to stand still, channeling for round after round... I still like the idea of increased casting times... perhaps 1 round for low-tier spells, 2 rounds for mid-tier spells, and 3 rounds for high-tier spells?This might mitigate the frustration a bit, but casters will still stand around 1-2 rounds for the more interesting spells. You have not yet addressed the problem that everyone can walk up to the caster during those two rounds and hit him on the head unless the caster is surrounded by 8 other characters. Even then the opposition can simply shoot him in the face.


The save DC bonuses will be specifically for spells, not SLA's or other abilities. Spells are the artillery of DnD.Even then some enemies will be actual spellcasters, unless there is something in your gameworld that makes the PC casters unique.


Alternatively, I could limit the casters' spells/day (and possibly some other spell-based qualities such as caster level, range, Save DC), and allow this to be overcome by channeling. So a wizard with a normal spells/day allotment of 5/4/2 would get 3/2/1 normal and 2/2/1 channeled. Channeled spells would require a more difficult investment, but would also allow the caster to function at maximum power.What about bonus spells form high ability scores? What about the extra spell slot feat? Reducing the number of spells per day will either have no impact at all, because the caster still has enough to contribute on all encounters that happen in a day, or will frustrate the player, because he cannot do anything once his spells are gone. The latter part is especially true for wizards, druids and clerics can still become a BSF.


When I say that food is the currency or backbone of the economy, what I mean is: people judge an item's value by how long it will help to sustain their life. An couple of arrows might be the equivalent of a single family's meal. A potion of bull's strength will help through one fight, one day. Armor will keep you alive through a lot, it will cost a ton of money.
The players won't be paying for things in rations after level 2. But any kind of mundane trade is going to boil down to an objects actual worth. Gold, gems, and bits of history are worthless in the real world. Shopkeepers will want things of practical value. Only in the wealthiest and most indulgent societies will the players be able to hock an old relic or knick-knack; if an object has no useful purpose, it's worth as much as a well-painted rock.
I ran a post-apocalyptic Scion game 2 years ago, and the primary currency was bullets. Knives and machetes were valued for hunting and saving ammo, while shotgun shells were valued for emergencies and gang-warfare. Pretty things were collected by eccentrics, but weren't worth anything in the open market.Not sure what you are trying to achieve here. Most mechanically relevant items (i.e. magic items and mundane gear) are already priced by usefulness - at least that is the intention. So you need not change much there. Whether you give out gems, and gold pieces or bottle caps and wheat besides magic items does not matter much - especially once the PCs have acquired extradimensional storage. Making loot impractical to transport may not be such a good idea either, because monsters are assigned their CRs based on the assumption that the PCs have items worth their WBL.

I'd say simply use an exotic type of currency. Whether you use four different types of precious metals or other items does not matter much. You should decide whether your postapocalyptic society still uses the concept of money or not. If not, it will just be bartering. If they still exchange goods and services for generally worthless items, because everyone agrees that those items can be changed back into goods and services, it does not matter whether the items are seashells, small bits of precious metals or pieces of paper.

[JusticeZero]

well great, they can both go on the list.The other issue is that spell R might be balanced, weak even, and spell S might be balanced, weak even, but if you cast R on someone, then cast S, you are broken. Or worse, R+S might make you ridiculously over the top if and only if you're holding ordinarily weak common item Q.
It makes it very hard to balance.

[BWR]

L5R shugenja have increased casting time based on how powerful their spells are, and you know what? It sucks big time.
They even have a mechanic for reducing the casting time for powerful spells by making them harder to cast, but it doesn't really matter. In combat the really powerful spells rarely see use because casters are easy targets and interrupting them is pretty damn easy.

Mostly, though, spending several minutes real time doing absolutely nothing then have it all be for naught as you are interrupted is not going to be fun for any player.

[gr8artist]

Well, I kind of like the idea of the caster being vulnerable while he's doing his thing. I mean, he's tier 1 for a reason, right? The trick lies in punishing the higher-tier casters without also punishing the bards/magi/etc that use spells as part of a combat routine.

What if we cut back the caster level of the stronger classes, and they have to spend time charging to raise it back up. Their starting caster level would be treated as 1/2 their max caster level, and they can increase this by +2 with a DC 10 concentration check as a full round action. Failing this concentration check (<10) prevents them from casting the spell or charging more energy... effectively their turn is wasted, but the spell is not. Once their caster level is high enough to cast the spell they desire, they can unleash it with a full-round-action, and this drains their effective caster level by an amount equal to the level of the spell (down to his minimum.) A caster can always unleash a spell at half power if his effective caster level is high enough already. A caster's maximum effective caster level is equal to his hit dice (allowing gishes to boost to 100% effectiveness).

For example, a level 6 wizard wants to cast Fireball, which requires an effective CL of 5. He already has a base of 3 (1/2 his level), so he spends his first round in combat charging. He makes his check, and boosts his caster level by 2. On his next turn, he has an effective CL of 5, and releases his fireball, which would drop him down to 2. Since his base is 3, his caster level post-fireball is 3. On his next turn, he finishes off survivors with a Magic Missile. Since his CL is only 3, he could fire this round for 2 shots, or spend this round charging and fire 3 on his next turn.

Lower tier classes have slightly different rules. The off-set casters, those that begin magic at lvl 4 (Pal/Rng) no longer have the setback in their caster level. At level 4, they are a maximum 4th level caster, with a base caster level of 2. This is enough to let them always cast their spells as a single full-round action, without needing to charge.

Using a system like this, I would convert arcane failure to a concentration penalty, because less rolling is better. Hell, SR might make its way in here too.

[Andezzar]

You do not need a CL 5 to cast 3rd level spells. You need a 3rd level spell slot, casting stat of 13+ and a spell you know. If you somehow get that you could cast CL 1 fireballs, dealing 1d6 of damage at up to 440 ft. Ur-Priest kinda works like that 9th level spells at CL 9+.

Also how does that mechanic interact with all the immediate action spells? Can they even be cast?

[JusticeZero]

Well, I kind of like the idea of the caster being vulnerable while he's doing his thing. I mean, he's tier 1 for a reason, right?The problem is that that is not the reason.
What if we cut back the caster level of the stronger classes, and they have to spend time charging to raise it back up.A number of the problem spells are either precast or do their thing at caster level 1. This "solution" mainly penalizes blasting.
If you are worried about casters dominating and want to keep the wizard down on the farm, you want to encourage them to launch fireballs and other damage spells at every opportunity. A Vaarsuvius type nuking wizard will not break your game. As such, your fix is running counter to a fix.

[Devronq]

I would not go that far, just limit the cost to +1 if metamagic reducers are used. If there are metamagics that add +0 or even less, leave it a t that.

Just enforce spot checks for targeting. The -1/10ft. gets pretty hard at distances in the long range anyways unless the caster employs other spells.

Why? There are other good spells that are not blocked by SR. If you get hit by mundane fire/acid/etc. you don't get SR either.

Not sure what you mean by that. What's unfair about those spells?

The metamagic part yes sorry i actually meant to mean what you said.

The SR part, ya like what spells are you talking about? And if so they might need to have SR apply to them as well.

As far as whats unfair about those spells do you really not know? I could have chose better examples but common wish you really see nothing wrong with wish? Ya the DM could mess you up but you also wish for a 10trillion GP magic item and that's perfectly within the rules... but a 25,001 gp non magic item is too good apparently :P

Also banning magic item creation is huge step towards balance :P

[Andezzar]

The SR part, ya like what spells are you talking about? And if so they might need to have SR apply to them as well.Summon monster, lesser/normal/greater planar ally, lesser/normal/greater planar binding, gate, evard's black tentacles etc. It simply makes no sense that the creature that interacts with the spell's effect gets SR. The orbs are similar (well orb of force is a bit iffy). They create a sphere of more or less mundane fire, acid, etc. Getting hit with fire or acid should not be blocked by SR.


As far as whats unfair about those spells do you really not know? I could have chose better examples but common wish you really see nothing wrong with wish? Ya the DM could mess you up but you also wish for a 10trillion GP magic item and that's perfectly within the rules... but a 25,001 gp non magic item is too good apparently :PYes, the rules for wish have a couple of commonly known problems, but what about the rest? You seem to have a problem with scrying as well as all save or die/suck spells.


Also banning magic item creation is huge step towards balance :PI disagree. Especially the non-caster characters will need more and more magic items to still contribute to the encounters as they level up. If you only give out those items per GM fiat, the PCs will either not have what they need to succeed or it will feel like they are always gifted with the right tool for the job. If you let them make their own items, or have some NPC craft them to their specifications, the choice is with th players for which eventualities to prepare.

[Big Fau]

The orbs are similar (well orb of force is a bit iffy). They create a sphere of more or less mundane fire, acid, etc. Getting hit with fire or acid should not be blocked by SR.

Counterpoint: Orb of Sound, Orb of Force. By RAW, Orb of Force is a Conjuration (Creation) spell with a duration of Instantaneous, which means the orbs created are permanent objects. Which means they retain the traits the spell ascribes them (that is, range and damage), which means they can be collected and used as ranged weapons after being cast.

Now explain to me how someone can hold a ball of sound in their hand, and how it never dissipates. Same with the Orb of Acid and Orb of Cold and Orb of Fire. Seriously, none of those spells should be Conjuration.

[drew2u]

Don't hurt me if this idea has been done to death, but what about a fatigue system for higher-level spells? could something like that help to bring Teir 1 casters down a little bit without sacrificing too much?

[Big Fau]

Don't hurt me if this idea has been done to death, but what about a fatigue system for higher-level spells? could something like that help to bring Teir 1 casters down a little bit without sacrificing too much?

Fatigue, as in the condition defined in the PHB, wouldn't work at all. Too many ways to become immune to both that and exhaustion, and most of them a spellcaster can access. And, again, it nerfs the Gish-style casters (Hexblade, Paladin, Duskblade, Bard, Ranger). It isn't their fault that spells are overpowered; the top tiers just have too many options at every spell level to apply a blanket-nerf to everyone.

[Devronq]

Summon monster, lesser/normal/greater planar ally, lesser/normal/greater planar binding, gate, evard's black tentacles etc. It simply makes no sense that the creature that interacts with the spell's effect gets SR. The orbs are similar (well orb of force is a bit iffy). They create a sphere of more or less mundane fire, acid, etc. Getting hit with fire or acid should not be blocked by SR.

Yes, the rules for wish have a couple of commonly known problems, but what about the rest? You seem to have a problem with scrying as well as all save or die/suck spells.

I disagree. Especially the non-caster characters will need more and more magic items to still contribute to the encounters as they level up. If you only give out those items per GM fiat, the PCs will either not have what they need to succeed or it will feel like they are always gifted with the right tool for the job. If you let them make their own items, or have some NPC craft them to their specifications, the choice is with th players for which eventualities to prepare.

Yes all those summoning need some sort of fix and applying SR isn't that fix but it doesn't meant the orbs shouldn't have SR as well. Scrying just shouldnt let you teleport to somewhere based on scry information alone the whole scry and die thing needs a fix. Save and die/suck effects im not sure what do here ether actually...

Even my power players didn't mind at all me banning creation and I really dont understand the point your making... If the PC need something they go out and buy it and if i want them to have it its available to buy. Ive never had someone feel they had poor gear or not the right tool for the job. If the fighter desperately needs flight he will go buy boots of flying. However the party doesn't need 28 nightsticks and a belt of battle each...

[Andezzar]

Scrying just shouldnt let you teleport to somewhere based on scry information alone the whole scry and die thing needs a fix.There are spells that prevent scrying. Whether you can use scrying for targeting spells, is a design choice of course. You could change that. I'm not sure it would make a better game though. If it does not exist, the PCs also do not need to prepare for it and can use their resources for other things.


Save and die/suck effects im not sure what do here ether actually...They are not much different from the charger who can kill most level appropriate opponents with one charge. So unless you want to rewrite most of the game...


If the PC need something they go out and buy it and if i want them to have it its available to buy. Ive never had someone feel they had poor gear or not the right tool for the job.That's the thing, you decide what is available and the PCs are unable to make it available. Making anything unavailable by fiat always sounds to me like saying, "I have not thought about this solution and it could make my encounters trivial. I do not want to deal with this being available." Outright banning stuff always makes me try all the harder to circumvent that restriction.


However the party doesn't need 28 nightsticks and a belt of battle each...Yeah nightsticks are problematic in how they interact with DMM. But I don't see what's so bad about the belt of battle. Celerity and daze negation are available to wizards. Neither require item creation unless you fiat that locations of appropriate population do not carry such items.

[Andezzar]

Counterpoint: Orb of Sound, Orb of Force. By RAW, Orb of Force is a Conjuration (Creation) spell with a duration of Instantaneous, which means the orbs created are permanent objects.True.

Which means they retain the traits the spell ascribes them (that is, range and damage), which means they can be collected and used as ranged weapons after being cast.that is wrong. The created object has the properties the spell gives it. the properties are that it deals damage to the target and sickens it with fumes. After that the orb has dissipated enough to be mechanically irrelevant. That is permanent. The other orbs work similarly. So the spell creates something permanent that then reacts normally with its environment. Acid dissipates, the oscillation of the air that made the sound slows down etc.

[gr8artist]

My group is at that weird mid-level point in optimization, where they find cool feats and abilities to do what they want to do really well, but not to the point that they make convoluted builds or pick all of their spells so as to be engines of destruction.
As an example, we had one guy in the last campaign min/max his throwing abilities so that he dealt tons of damage by throwing an enchanted, returning boulder every round. They don't research uncommon classes or hard-to-find feats, but they'll do a google search for "how to nuke better" or "ways to stay invisible longer"... stuff like that.
So, the major problems (scry-and-die, pun-pun, custom item ability stacking, etc...) are not going to come up much.
I guess that alone nerfs the high-tier classes enough. And stuff will be hard to come by. I'm going to restrict the economy pretty thoroughly, and magic is a lost and dying art. So, the wizard won't have many more spells than the 2/level he gets for free.
Still leaning toward giving the lower-tier classes extra build points at re-training. How many points do you think would be good?
I'm going to give them an initial point buy of 10, so the caster will start wth 8/10/10/10/12/16 or so, and the fighter could get 14/14/12/10/10/8ish. They'll get ability score upgrades at every even hit-die, not every 4th, and they'll get a re-training from their NPC levels prior to reaching 5th.
I'm thinking the monk/fighter/cavalier/barbarian/ranger/paladin will get +1 to their point buy total per warrior level, and the rogue/bard/alchemist/etc. will get +1/2 expert levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

You know that nerfing the economy IMPROVES casters relative to non-casters, right?

The nonmagical classes NEED their gear to be effective...

[Psyren]

Which means they retain the traits the spell ascribes them (that is, range and damage), which means they can be collected and used as ranged weapons after being cast.

I don't agree with this; I see the various orbs as being very volatile. A water balloon is a real object too, but once you hit someone with it you can't exactly reuse it.

And aren't projectiles destroyed after being fired anyways?

[Ravitiate]

Here's a nerf to casters that seems pretty balanced:

When casting a normal standard action spell, it ends their turn and the spell doesnt get activated before the casters next round. The spell immidiatly gets cast at the start of the casters next turn.

This means between rounds enemies are free to attack the caster and interrupt the spell, while still not making casters boring to use.

This retains the action economy for Gishes and the like to some degree as well.

Things to concider with this variant:
- You could either reduce the LA-ajustment on Quicken or create another Metamagic feat that boosts a spell to be activated on the casters round, but still costs a standard or a move action.
- You could make it follow an initiative number instead of the casters round, so the caster won't just cast and then Celerity and activate the spell at once.

[Psyren]

So all standard-action spells become a 1-round casting time?

Touch attack spells become unusable - the target can simply move away, forcing the caster to waste the spell when their turn comes around again. Naturally, this hurts gishes more than pure casters.

Time-sensitive spells, like in-combat healing or dispels, lose effectiveness as well. This hurts mundanes that might need to be stabilized or have a nasty condition removed before their turn. For instance, if the fighter is blinded, the cleric won't be able to remove it until two rounds later, wasting both of their next turns.

If the party is ambushed out of marching order (e.g. monsters show up at the back row among the casters), mortality will be high as the casters will be unable to invisiibility/sanctuary/dimension door/etc. away. With the casters down, the melee will have a much harder fight on their hands.

[Andezzar]

I'm going to restrict the economy pretty thoroughly, and magic is a lost and dying art. So, the wizard won't have many more spells than the 2/level he gets for free.Ever heard about independent research?
A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one.

[Cheiromancer]

Here's a nerf to casters that seems pretty balanced:

When casting a normal standard action spell, it ends their turn and the spell doesnt get activated before the casters next round. The spell immidiatly gets cast at the start of the casters next turn.
[snip]
- You could make it follow an initiative number instead of the casters round, so the caster won't just cast and then Celerity and activate the spell at once.
I've seen a variant of this where instantaneous and permanent spells take place right away, but all other spells take effect just before the caster's next action. Targeting decisions take place when the spell is cast. So if you cast shocking grasp on someone, they take damage right away, but if you cast ghoul touch they would have a chance to act before getting paralyzed.

As for celerity, I think the daze effect is a cost of the spell, and shouldn't be avoidable.

[Andezzar]

As for celerity, I think the daze effect is a cost of the spell, and shouldn't be avoidable.It is and should be just as avoidable as any other daze effect.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you think that reducing wealth will slow wizards down at all...

The Easy Bake Wizard!

Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Greyhawk Method (Dragon Magazine #315, optional, requires DM adjudication)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic.
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game! Or get it's abilities shunted into Concentration, or whatever)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard (this is superior to Greyhawk Method, due to more spells when starting the game): Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
If Greyhawk Method & Collegiate Wizard Stack: +2 spells per level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...), without flaws, assuming Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard don't stack you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

With flaws, if Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard DO stack, you get:

15 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain 8 new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 8 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...


Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty (ewww, exalted! And not able to gather even useful cheap equipment!) needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful. Or, if you have access to wealth by level, than Mercantile Background can get you cheaper scrolls to scribe to your brain.

[Cheiromancer]

As for celerity, I think the daze effect is a cost of the spell, and shouldn't be avoidable.


It is and should be just as avoidable as any other daze effect.

It doesn't really matter: gr8artist is swinging an awfully big banhammer, and is likely to hit celerity sooner or later. But what I should have said is that the celerity spells are poorly worded if their intent is to "borrow a slice of time from the future, pulling it into the present so that you can act". If an effect prevents you from paying a cost it will also prevent you from gaining the corresponding benefit. So anyone who has immunity to the dazed condition should also be incapable of benefiting from celerity. Alternatively, if they benefit from celerity they should have to pay the cost.

Ignoring the flavor text as a guide to the spell's intention you are, of course, correct: the rules do not distinguish costs from effects (or at least does not do so consistently), and so a favor of the martyr or (possibly) freedom of movement would remove the dazed condition however it came about.

Anyway, this is a pretty minor point compared to the huge changes gr8artist is proposing. I think those changes will have all sorts of unintended and counter-productive side effects and will result in making his game a lot less fun.

[gr8artist]

If you think that reducing wealth will slow wizards down at all...

The Easy Bake Wizard!

Here's the recipe for one of my favorite ways of playing D&D, an Easy Bake Wizard. Put the Sorcerer to shame (well, at anything except metamagic-heavy blasting...sorcerer has a ton of ACF's for that, which you don't get...)!

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Greyhawk Method (Dragon Magazine #315, optional, requires DM adjudication)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)
Extra bits, optional, see later instructions!

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right when playing it in a zero wealth game, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open to spend 15 minutes preparing the correct spell you need in it, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, or Nexus Method, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch (just don't take any spells with focuses or components more than 5 gp)! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana; choose the powers to get the minimum LA for that race). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self, it's fantastic.
-Get the Nexus Method feat from Dragon Magazine #319! This lets you spontaneously cast the summon monster line, and apparently adds all the spells to your spellbook! If you do this, you probably want the Transmutation Domain rather than the Conjuration Domain, to maximize spells known.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin.
-Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.

-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting (assuming the GM uses Autohypnosis in his game! Or get it's abilities shunted into Concentration, or whatever)

Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard (this is superior to Greyhawk Method, due to more spells when starting the game): Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
If Greyhawk Method & Collegiate Wizard Stack: +2 spells per level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)
Nexus Method: Apparently automatically gets you the entire Summon Monster line!

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever, or 21 if you start at middle aged...), without flaws, assuming Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard don't stack you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

With flaws, if Greyhawk Method and Collegiate Wizard DO stack, you get:

15 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain 8 new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 8 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...


Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty (ewww, exalted! And not able to gather even useful cheap equipment!) needed to be useful without wealth!

Finally, if you want to gain access to even MORE spells, the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class can be useful. Or, if you have access to wealth by level, than Mercantile Background can get you cheaper scrolls to scribe to your brain.


Not sure I was clear earlier, but this kind of in-depth research isn't going to happen in my group. And if I see anyone trying it, I'll ask them not to.
Regarding the economy, everyone will have access to everything they need. They may have to go out of their way to get it, but they won't have time/resources to waste on adding a superficial number of spells to their spellbooks. Independent research takes time, and lots of it, and I plan to have them moving around a lot. If they're doing research, then they're not crafting, and vice-versa. So the out-of-combat-meta-preparedness that wizards are so known for won't be a problem. It's their ability to spend one turn shutting down a whole team of enemies that worries me. Those area or multi-target save-or-sucks, or the spells that reshape or alter the battlefield environment. So, my concern is with spellcaster power inside of combat.
Also, any further debate about Orb spells or whatever should probably make its way into another thread.