Man, Combat Sure is Loud

[Gorfnod]

So back in the days of vast sprawling dungeons, filled with mindless undead, oozes and beasts with a single BBEG down on the deepest, darkest levels, I found it a little bit easier to believe that a group of adventurers could move from room to room, fighting group after group without calling the whole place down on themselves. This just doesn’t seem to be the case anymore with all the contingencies, traps, warning spells, heck even the sheer number of mundane options makes it so that everything turns in to either alarm goes off, fight everything at once, or PCs sneak past and don’t have to deal with anything.

Strictly from a CR standpoint, how do you all design encounters? Should entire garrisons, wizard’s towers, evil cathedrals, etc be CR appropriate so that when the alarm sounds, the PCs still have a fighting chance or each group should be CR appropriate and if the alarms go off the PCs better have a backup plan?

Also if steel on steel combat and spellcasting isn’t loud enough what about the growing emphasis on explosions and firearms? Pathfinder has base classes, the Alchemist and Gunslinger respectively, that basically announce to the world with a bang that the heroes are here.

It just seems to me more and more that you either have to be a lot more powerful than what you are facing or be able to sneak past it entirely.

[Blackhawk748]

well you gotta remember that there are rather thick walls in the way, and it is REALLY hard to pin down a sound in an echoy dungeon. So ya the BBEG knows that they're there, but the point is, is he gonna actually do anything about it? Hes probably pretty confident in his guards, so he might just let his "automatic defenses" take care of everything.

I've played a BBEG, i mean as a character (my DM was being lazy), and i didnt really do to much interfering in the normal function of my lair, because i had set it up way earlier and it worked. Ok occasionally people would luck out and actually get to my Great Hall/Living area, but thats what my Magical Macguffin is for :smallwink: lol

[Fouredged Sword]

Generally I set things up so that the party knows that they have a limited amount of time before the situation spirals out of control and combat will shift towards the defenders control unless they can strike a decisive advantage.

Really, I go by how smart the monsters are. At Int 4, they don't plan and react by waiting. At int 10, they have scouts and watchmen that must be disabled quietly and basic responses set up so a direct assault is VS the whole of their defenses all at once.

My players tend to drop BFC and run if things turn bad.

[kreenlover]

I'd set it so that each group is CR appropriate. Often the way I have seen it done in modules and such is that a single extra group may hear and come running (so that you have twice the enemies as that you can handle) but that unless one of those enemies gets to the alarm system and rings the bell/shoots the flare/whatever nobody else comes running.

Also, it could be a strictly military thing where each group needs to guard its post without express orders from the sergeant/BBEG/leader type.

Or, have there be an empty room/empty hall sound barrier between each fight (along with closed doors)

For more primitive races like goblins, they will often be too afraid to get killed to voluntarily go join a fight. They would prefer to sit where they are and wait for the food to come to them.

[Gorfnod]

Before I response to everyone I would like to say that this discussion has come from a player of mine who is interested in playing a Gunslinger in our PF game. It just got me thinking about how someone is ever going to infiltrate anywhere running around firing off a musket. That got me thinking about how loud combat is in general. So anyways, in order to keeps this discussion going here are my comments.



well you gotta remember that there are rather thick walls in the way, and it is REALLY hard to pin down a sound in an echoy dungeon. So ya the BBEG knows that they're there, but the point is, is he gonna actually do anything about it? Hes probably pretty confident in his guards, so he might just let his "automatic defenses" take care of everything.


Even with thick walls and expansive dungeons, the sound of swords hitting armor and gun shots ringing in the air is going to alert someone. If not the BBEG then some of the other guards would atleast be running in.


I've played a BBEG, i mean as a character (my DM was being lazy), and i didnt really do to much interfering in the normal function of my lair, because i had set it up way earlier and it worked. Ok occasionally people would luck out and actually get to my Great Hall/Living area, but thats what my Magical Macguffin is for :smallwink: lol

This seems in line with most egotistical BBEG type attitudes, so I think that I could see the BBEG being held back in this type of situation, even if it would be more intelligent for him to attack the PCs when they are dealing with his mooks.


Generally I set things up so that the party knows that they have a limited amount of time before the situation spirals out of control and combat will shift towards the defenders control unless they can strike a decisive advantage........

My players tend to drop BFC and run if things turn bad.

This seems like a decent way of playing things and only needs a minimal amount of suspense of disbelief as long as the players keep moving and aren't searching every space for 20 minutes even after a very loud encounter.


Really, I go by how smart the monsters are. At Int 4, they don't plan and react by waiting. At int 10, they have scouts and watchmen that must be disabled quietly and basic responses set up so a direct assault is VS the whole of their defenses all at once.


I agree with you here except that I would think that the lower Int monsters wouldn't always react by waiting. I could easily see them just automatically charging towards the sounds of any combat ready to fight or fleeing if they are scared. At Int 4, I would think the fight or flight response would overrule any logic.


I'd set it so that each group is CR appropriate. Often the way I have seen it done in modules and such is that a single extra group may hear and come running (so that you have twice the enemies as that you can handle) but that unless one of those enemies gets to the alarm system and rings the bell/shoots the flare/whatever nobody else comes running.

This is starting to seem like the best way to play it and I believe is what Fouredged Sword was implying as well.


Also, it could be a strictly military thing where each group needs to guard its post without express orders from the sergeant/BBEG/leader type.

For more primitive races like goblins, they will often be too afraid to get killed to voluntarily go join a fight. They would prefer to sit where they are and wait for the food to come to them.

Again these seem to further push playing the monsters to their Int and more importantly, their motivations for fighting/defending. Something more for me to think about.


Or, have there be an empty room/empty hall sound barrier between each fight (along with closed doors)

I still think that unless you are using huge empty spaces, the sound is loud enough that it is going to be heard.


I guess what I am getting so far is that while it may be the most beneficial for the monsters to attack the PCs as one massive group, especially when it can be easily jusified with alarms, there are just as many roleplaying ways to justify them not all attacking at once in order to spread out the pain so to speak.

[Flickerdart]

A dungeon isn't a singular hive mind with the intent to eat the PCs. A sprawling abandoned ruin might be full of different sides - a small tribe of kobolds occupying some rooms over there, beetles who feed on the moss and stuff wandering around, different packs of displacer beasts who eat those beetles, etc. If you're wrecking beetle face, the displacers won't come near (fighting sounds of their prey = likely that another pack is hunting there = why fight an equally strong foe when you can go eat elsewhere?) while the kobolds might send a scout to check out what's going on. By the time the scout gets there, checks out the situation, and gets back, the PCs are long gone.

If the PCs are running into a properly organized compound densely populated by a single faction and not using stealth, they get what's coming to them.

[ericgrau]

If the dungeon is well organized, the enemy should send a large force to investigate the noise, but they can't leave everything else defenseless. In fact I encourage DMing this way as the more you think about strategy the more PCs think about strategy. Next the players will set up a decoy and while most of the enemy force comes crashing down on it they bee line to the Macguffin, nab it and run. And then for each strategy there may be a counter strategy, etc. As long as you don't play foes as all knowing with the perfect answer to the PCs, it could make the game 10 times more interesting without an instant inappropriate CR TPK.

And on the flipside make individual encounters much easier so the larger force is not overwhelming, so PCs have a chance to dispatch foes quietly without losing the fight, and so PCs are rewarded for clever planning.

[Fyermind]

I am a huge fan of considering Slamming back to back encounters on PCs. Lets say the PCs are level 5 and attack a run down keep with some goblins and wargs in a stable, a minotaur polishing his guisarme, a sorcerer preparing a speech, a couple of hobgoblins on watch, a group of hobgoblins playing dice, and manticore chained in the yard.

Any similarity to Vaarth Keep is illusionary.

Each encounter ranges from players ECL -2 to ECL +3. Hitting them all at once is a TPK. Hitting them one right after another is rough, but maybe they can retreat. Lets look at what happens when the PCs rush in guns blazing.

Round 1: The PCs are seen by the two hobgoblins on watch as well as the manticore. The hobgoblins knock arrows to their bows and the manticore attacks. The PCs engage them.

Round 2: It becomes pretty clear the PCs are stronger than the hobgoblins and manticore. If a Hobgoblin survives, it raises the alarm properly alerting the keep of adventurers, otherwise the keep is alerted just that something is disturbing the manticore.

Round 3: The PCs are trashing the manticore. Once the Hobgoblin shouted, the PCs put a kill order on it.
The Minotaur who was polishing his guisarme, grabs his chain shirt and interrupts the dice game so they will help him put it on. The goblins grab their lances and shields. The Sorcerer looks out the window of the keep. The PCs might see him see them.

Round 4: The manticore is probably dead or almost dead. The PCs might have a moment to figure out what they want to do next or lay ambush.
The Goblins are at the door, one ready to open it beside his warg, the other mounted ready for a charge. The hobgoblins are throwing on armor and helping the Minotaur with his chain shirt. The sorcerer retreats from the window and starts his full buff routine.

Round 5: The Goblins charge into the quad looking for the PCs. One gets a charge the other opens the doors and mounts.
Hobgoblins and minotaur continue their preparations.

Round 6: The second Goblin Charges. Melee will probably be brutal and short.

Round 7: The sorcerer returns to the window and lets loose a fireball, likely ending the encounter as it kills the goblins and their wargs.

Round 8: The sorcerer retreats from the window as the Minotaur comes through the door opened by two hobgoblins. Another two hobgoblins exit to guard the flanks of the minotaur.

Rounds 9+: The PCs fight the minotaur and hobgoblins (a challenging encounter on it's own) while the sorcerer drops magic missiles/scorching rays every other round falling prone after shooting to maintain total cover outside his turn from a window in the tower. If/when the minotaur dies, he fireballs the keep and goes into solo boss mode.

This is a very hard final encounter. If they had been sneaky, they might have been able to avoid it. They may have to retreat now under the combined forces, but the sorcerer won't know where they've gone, and the Minotaur can't abandon the sorcerer so at worst they will be pursued by four hobgoblins when they can probably overwhelm outside the keep walls in a few rounds. Still, for a high damage output group, it is not unreasonable to expect that there was very little overlap between encounters.

If they feld when the Wargs attacked, the Wargs would pursue and the keep grounds would be fortified (tables stood up for defense and barrels rolled out for obstacles) and the hobgoblins would take positions of cover with nets and alchemist's fire. The sorcerer would have wasted some buff spells (mage armor would likely last, but shield and levitate probably not).

Takeaway for DMs, getting everyone ready to attack takes time. Even if it's just a bunch of move actions and grabbing gear, someone needs to decide they are going to do it, which takes time. This was the PCs attacking a military encampment in broad daylight taking advantage of minor cover of brush to get close, then throwing caution to the wind. Anything else will react more slowly. Don't be afraid to throw in a two round delay on what ever you think the first group to arrive would be just for decision making and finding where Bob the orc put his darn axe.

When the defense isn't entirely loyal to each other (such as the hobgoblins and the goblins in the keep) The hobgoblins would very much like to let the goblins die before they move out because they know the sorcerer will roast the battlefield and they don't want to be there when it happens. In general a monster would rather show up just after a fight and take an easier victory and all the treasure from both parties for themselves than fight in a big melee where they might get hurt or die. If the PCs curbstomp an encounter the monsters in the next encounter may try to retreat to the location beyond and could stumble into the middle of an ambush mid preparation causing more confusion and disorganization by the time the PCs arrive.

So, while combat is loud, it is also confusing, and chaotic, and dealing with a sudden outbreak in all but the most controlled and regimented settings is wild and uncoordinated.

[Tvtyrant]

I am a huge fan of considering Slamming back to back encounters on PCs. Lets say the PCs are level 5 and attack a run down keep with some goblins and wargs in a stable, a minotaur polishing his guisarme, a sorcerer preparing a speech, a couple of hobgoblins on watch, a group of hobgoblins playing dice, and manticore chained in the yard.

I am also a fan of chained combats, but my group has convinced me that they shouldn't be more than 2-3 combats long. If it goes further than that they begin groaning and looking for ways to get out of Dodge.

[Fyermind]

I am also a fan of chained combats, but my group has convinced me that they shouldn't be more than 2-3 combats long. If it goes further than that they begin groaning and looking for ways to get out of Dodge.

That is precisely the idea. Chaining combats even if it isn't threatening, is ANNOYING. It punishes bad player decisions without punishing characters, or provides ways to threaten characters for poor planning without throwing their lives completely to the dice with a harder encounter.