So Kobolds can skip..requirements?

[CyberThread]

So due to an obscure rule, that lets true dragons ignore requirements of dragon blooded prc's or feats, and the iffy bits of kobolds being true dragons if they being the wrought variety.


A small list of what it qualify for, and seems rather weak choices besides one or two prc's?


Disciple of the Eye

Dragonheart Mage

Singer of Concordance

Various Initiate feats

Bunch of breath feats, and dragon styled affects.

[Aegis013]

So due to an obscure rule, that lets true dragons ignore requirements of dragon blooded prc's or feats, and the iffy bits of kobolds being true dragons if they being the wrought variety.


Actually the rule just lets creatures with the Dragon type skip other prereqs for feats, PrCs, etc that require the dragonblood subtype. It doesn't require True Dragon.

Edit: I'd bet most DMs wouldn't let you take advantage of the rule, anyway.

Second Edit: The obscure rule is found on page 4 of Races of the Dragon and says "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype." for reference.

[Amphetryon]

So due to an obscure rule, that lets true dragons ignore requirements of dragon blooded prc's or feats, and the iffy bits of kobolds being true dragons if they being the wrought variety.


A small list of what it qualify for, and seems rather weak choices besides one or two prc's?


Disciple of the Eye

Dragonheart Mage

Singer of Concordance

Various Initiate feats

Bunch of breath feats, and dragon styled affects.If your DM agrees with that particular reading - which is contested regularly, and has rabid yesmen and naysayers - then yes, Dragonwrought Kobolds can skip bunches of prerequisites.

[Fouredged Sword]

So can any half-dragon.

[tyckspoon]

The usual main suggested abuse, IIRC, is to take higher-level substitution levels early (normally taking, say, Cleric 9 has an implicit requirement/explicit XP requirement that you be level 8 first, but.. automatically qualifies, so ignore that.) It does really, really weird things to the game, tho; I'm not sure exactly how you're supposed to handle things like spellcasting when you're a level 1 character whose 1st level happens to be Sorcerer 6 or Cleric 9 or whatever.

[JaronK]

The usual main suggested abuse, IIRC, is to take higher-level substitution levels early (normally taking, say, Cleric 9 has an implicit requirement/explicit XP requirement that you be level 8 first, but.. automatically qualifies, so ignore that.) It does really, really weird things to the game, tho; I'm not sure exactly how you're supposed to handle things like spellcasting when you're a level 1 character whose 1st level happens to be Sorcerer 6 or Cleric 9 or whatever.

Note that because of the way the rules work, you still only get Sorcerer 1 or Cleric 1 casting if you do this. You just get the higher BAB and saves... nothing else. Also, if you take another level of Sorcerer or Cleric, your BAB and saves get reset to the lower value (it's a lookup table).

Still insanely powerful and unintended, but you don't get Sorcerer 7 casting at first level or anything like that. You'll also miss out on Turn Undead and a Familiar... the latter isn't a big deal, but the former hurts.

Note that another thing you can skip prerequisites for is Improve Dragon Wings... not super powerful, but nice enough.

Other than the substitution levels out of order thing, it's really not a powerful ability, just an interesting one.

JaronK

[Nettlekid]

What book and page is this rule listed in/on?

[CyberThread]

Second Edit: The obscure rule is found on page 4 of Races of the Dragon and says "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype." for reference.


as far as PRC's go only the singer of con, looks any decent options.

[JaronK]

What book and page is this rule listed in/on?

Page 4, Races of the Dragon. It's quoted higher up in this thread.

JaronK

[Aegis013]

Note that because of the way the rules work, you still only get Sorcerer 1 or Cleric 1 casting if you do this. You just get the higher BAB and saves... nothing else. ...

JaronK

I assume that in the use of fractional saves/BAB variant makes this only give you the features. In that case, if a Dragonwrought Kobold takes the final Dragonblood Sorcerer sub level at first level, can they pick the 3rd level spell as an SLA?

[Scots Dragon]

Actually the rule just lets creatures with the Dragon type skip other prereqs for feats, PrCs, etc that require the dragonblood subtype. It doesn't require True Dragon.

Edit: I'd bet most DMs wouldn't let you take advantage of the rule, anyway.

Second Edit: The obscure rule is found on page 4 of Races of the Dragon and says "Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype." for reference.

I'd personally rule that this refers to them being able to qualify as if they were themselves dragonblooded, and they have to fulfil the other requirements.

[Aegis013]

I'd personally rule that this refers to them being able to qualify as if they were themselves dragonblooded, and they have to fulfil the other requirements.

I suspect a lot of people would. It's probably what was intended, it's just not what is written there.

[Psyren]

The whole "DWK are True Dragons" thing is extremely contested and will only result in moderation if we rehash it again here. Just FYI.

[Aegis013]

The whole "DWK are True Dragons" thing is extremely contested and will only result in moderation if we rehash it again here. Just FYI.

This is true, but in this particular case, whether or not they are true dragons appears to be irrelevant; all that appears to matter is that they have the Dragon type, which Dragonwrought explicitly gives to Kobolds who take it.

[WhamBamSam]

Dragonheart Mage doesn't work, as the dragonblood subtype isn't specifically called out.

I'm one of the yes-men of this ruling that Amphetryon mentioned, and have put some effort into learning the ways of Dragony cheese. There are only a few things that PCs really get out of this particular rule loophole.

Singer of Concordance is a full casting PrC, and in Gish builds is a decent two level dip, as you can pick up the granted power from Knowledge or Travel, and trade it in for the Devotion feat.

You can also grab practical metamagic slightly earlier, which might possibly be useful to certain builds.

I don't see disciple of the eye being super useful, as the prereqs are really easy for monk types already, and it's really not an astonishingly good PrC, but it could maybe be used by a Mercury Wyrmling with Great Flyby Attack, and the usual Never Outnumbered/Imperious Command/Whatever rigamarole to sow widespread discord amongst enemy forces. Could be fun.

[drax75]

So say i wanted to do a Half Dragon theurge, is there a Dragon PRC that i could take that has Full Arcane/Divine casting?

Like Half Dragon 1 (Sorc or Wiz) 1 Cleric X xxxxx?

[Mnemnosyne]

Note that because of the way the rules work, you still only get Sorcerer 1 or Cleric 1 casting if you do this. You just get the higher BAB and saves... nothing else. Also, if you take another level of Sorcerer or Cleric, your BAB and saves get reset to the lower value (it's a lookup table).

Still insanely powerful and unintended, but you don't get Sorcerer 7 casting at first level or anything like that. You'll also miss out on Turn Undead and a Familiar... the latter isn't a big deal, but the former hurts.

Note that another thing you can skip prerequisites for is Improve Dragon Wings... not super powerful, but nice enough.

Other than the substitution levels out of order thing, it's really not a powerful ability, just an interesting one.

JaronKHmm, it seems to me they'd get a standard 1-level increase for their class in BAB, Saves, and caster level/spells known/spells per day. The way the Level Advancement rules (58 PHB) are worded, it seems pretty clear to me that you gain the standard advancement for your class at each level even if you somehow took the levels out of order.

To suggest that taking a higher substitution level of a class would get you a higher base attack seems no different than suggesting that when you take level 1 in a PRC, or you multiclass, your BAB gets set back down to +0 or +1.

[ddude987]

Hmm, it seems to me they'd get a standard 1-level increase for their class in BAB, Saves, and caster level/spells known/spells per day. The way the Level Advancement rules (58 PHB) are worded, it seems pretty clear to me that you gain the standard advancement for your class at each level even if you somehow took the levels out of order.

To suggest that taking a higher substitution level of a class would get you a higher base attack seems no different than suggesting that when you take level 1 in a PRC, or you multiclass, your BAB gets set back down to +0 or +1.

I disagree. Taking the substitution is like taking your 9th level in Cleric which at that point it would grant you a +x to BaB. Your first level in a PrC grants +1 or +0 BaB because its the first level in a class.

[CyberThread]

Yeah I have eberrons dragon stuff.

[Splendor]

Another little bonus is Draconic Reservoir (Feat) and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Normal Draconic Rite of Passage is in RoDr pg 43)
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

This Feat and Ritual combined gives you character an extra level in sorcerer spell casting. So a 3rd Lv Kobold Sorcerer casts spells as if he was 4th level (including 2nd level spells). In addition his Draconic Rite of Passage spell (1st level Arcane spell) is useable 3/day at his character level.

[Alienist]

Even if it were an open question as to whether Dragonwrought conveys true dragon status, you'd still need a metallic heritage and a charisma of at least 198 to qualify as a true dragon, according to RAW.

Yes, that is an oddly specific number, however, like I said it is RAW.

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Also, by RAW, every true dragon has an immunity to an energy type. Something which seems to be missing from the Dragonwrought feat.*

*To be fair, the list on p103 does seem to contradict this, but if you're looking at page 103 in RotD you've already looking at a definitive list of True Dragons, and further argument is unnecessary.

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I could go on with other examples. Pretty much everything written about true dragons doesn't apply to Dragonwrought Kobolds. An exception to one or two rules I could hand-wave away, but needing to be an exception to 99% of what the rules say? Something ain't right with that picture.

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That said, not once but twice in the description of Dragonwrought it mentions that it is a heritage. What is a heritage you might ask? Good question. Is this just D&D sloppy writing, tossing off a poorly defined term that is never seen again? Surprise! It's not! (For once)

It is something that pops up extremely frequently in Races of the Dragon. Slightly more often than one out of every three pages mentions that term.

It beggars belief that anyone could read Races of the Dragon cover to cover and not have an idea of what the term draconic heritage means. (TL:DR; it means you're descended from a true dragon, but not a true dragon)

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I've been looking at the rules for the draconic racial substitution levels, and I don't see how being a dragon (true or untrue) gets you into cleric 9 early. Can someone unpack that line of reasoning, because the racial substitution section is actually very specific (a rarity, to be treasured not trampled, IMHO)

Edit: okay I looked at page 4 RotD, and back at page 105 of same. I'm certain that anyone that takes one of those racial substitution levels at the wrong level is not following the rules as written.

Being a Dragon lets you bypass this:

"To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race. For instance, to select a kobold rogue racial substitution level, you must be a kobold."

not this:


RACIAL SUBSTITUTION
LEVELS
A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. Selecting a substitution level is not the same as multiclassing—you remain within the class for which the substitution level is taken. The class features of the substitution level simply replace those of the standard class’s level.
To qualify to take a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race. For instance, to select a kobold rogue racial substitution level, you must be a kobold.
Each of the races featured in this book—the dragonborn, the spellscales, the kobolds, and dragonblood creatures in general has racial substitution levels. Essentially, each set of substitution levels presents a racially flavored variant standard class for your game. The DM can add more racial substitution level options, such as for a dragonborn barbar- ian or a kobold druid, as desired, using the substitution levels presented here as guidelines.
You can usually select a particular substitution level only at a specific class level. When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the standard class features gained at that level and get the substitution level features instead. You can’t go back and gain the class features for the level you swapped out—when you take your next level in the standard class, you gain the class features of the next higher level as if you had gained the previous level normally.
For instance, if you take the dragonborn paladin substitution level for 5th level, you forever lose the class features normally gained by a standard 5th-level paladin, gaining instead the racial substitution class features for a 5th-level dragonborn paladin. When you take the next level in paladin, you gain the normal 6th-level benefits of the standard paladin class.
Unless noted otherwise in the description of a racial substitution level class feature, a character who takes a racial substitution level gains spellcasting ability (increases in spells per day, caster level, and spells known, if applicable) as if he had taken a level in the standard class.
A character need not take all the substitution levels provided for a class. For example, a spellscale bard might decide to take only the racial substitution level for 1st level, ignoring the other substitution levels.
The description of each substitution level class feature explains what occurs with regard to a standard class ability not gained, if that ability would normally increase at a specific rate (such as a dragonborn paladin’s base attack bonus).
When a substitution level changes the standard class’s Hit Die or class skill list, the change applies only to that substitu- tion level, not to any other class levels. A character who takes the kobold rogue substitution level as a beginning character gains 4 hit points (from the substitution level’s d4 Hit Die) and gains an additional 1d4 hit points for each additional kobold rogue substitution level he takes later in his career. He gains the normal d6 Hit Die for all standard rogue levels.

[Chronos]

...and a charisma of at least 198 to qualify as a true dragon, according to RAW.

Yes, that is an oddly specific number, however, like I said it is RAW.That is a very oddly specific number indeed. Are there any true dragons at all?


Even if it were an open question as to whether Dragonwrought conveys true dragon status, you'd still need a metallic heritage ... to qualify as a true dragon, according to RAW.
(emphasis mine)


It beggars belief that anyone could read Races of the Dragon cover to cover and not have an idea of what the term draconic heritage means. (TL:DR; it means you're descended from a true dragon, but not a true dragon)
So all true dragons have metallic draconic heritage, and nothing with draconic heritage is a true dragon. I sense a problem here.

And where are these requirements for an energy immunity, metallic heritage, and minimum Cha, anyway?

[Spuddles]

One argument could be made regarding that rule would be Dragons meet the dragonblood requirement, and only that requirement, and not every other requirement. So you would still need 9 levels of cleric or whatever to take a dragonblood cleric substitution level.

I suspect that is the RAI of it, anyhow. The RAW, of course, is questionable.


That is a very oddly specific number indeed. Are there any true dragons at all?


(emphasis mine)

So all true dragons have metallic draconic heritage, and nothing with draconic heritage is a true dragon. I sense a problem here.

Actually, Alienist is referring to the maximum age of real True Dragons vs. the maximum age for Dragonwrought Kobolds. In order to apprach the max age of a real True Dragon, you need the multiplier of metallic and a buttload of charisma. Though I supposed with double the 198 cha, you could do it with Chromatic heritage.


And where are these requirements for an energy immunity, metallic heritage, and minimum Cha, anyway?

Draconomicon. There are rules on what aspects True Dragons have in sidebars all over the place in that book.

[Alienist]

Actually, Alienist is referring to the maximum age of real True Dragons vs. the maximum age for Dragonwrought Kobolds. In order to apprach the max age of a real True Dragon, you need the multiplier of metallic and a buttload of charisma. Though I supposed with double the 198 cha, you could do it with Chromatic

Bravo! Exactly.

Achieving a charisma of 396 is an exercise left to the reader ...

(And yes, the one shred of 'evidence' that people point to to interpret Dragonwrought kobolds as true dragons is (a) clearly fluff as immediately below it is a standard aging table which is where you get your actual stat modifiers from and (b) also liberally sprinkled with clear references to this 'mysterious' draconic heritage concept)