[3.5] Sorcerer/Favored Soul Theurge?

[Valwyn]

I'm trying to build a character for a friend, a half-drow Sorcerer Favored Soul, though I don't know her stats. My question is, does this build work to get 9th level spells on both lists? If not, can you suggest something to get her there? The setting is Forgotten Realms and the character will (eventually) reach epic levels.

Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Loremaster 7: Versatile Spellcaster (1), Heighten Spell (3), Extend Spell (6), Craft Wondrous Items (9).

The table on Loremaster says "+1 level of existing class", so would this allow her to get Sorcerer CL 19 and Favored Soul CL 18?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class, it does not itself grant any spellcasting ability and it does not have a spell list, so you cannot choose to advance Mystic Theurge spellcasting with another prestige class. If this wasn't the case, then why would you even take more than one level of it?

There are plenty of ways to get dual 9ths with classes that get 9th level spells at their 17th level, but using Sorcerer/Favored Soul is a bit more difficult. You could easily go Wizard 1/ Archivist 2/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Mindbender 1/ Legacy Champion 6 and get 17th level spellcasting in both classes. You'll typically have more spells than actions with any theurge build, so the extra spells/day you get for spontaneous classes typically ends up being irrelevant.

Is this a class combination of his own choosing? What does he want this character to actually do?

[Valwyn]

Oh well, I guess that was too easy...

Yes, those classes were her idea. I suggested Wizard and (Cloistered) Cleric, but her character concept doesn't fit those classes.

I also thought of advancing both classes further with True Necromancer, but A) it doesn't really fit character-wise, and B) it's hard to find a way to Rebuke without losing caster levels.

She wants her character to get 9th level arcane and divine spell as a sorcerer and favored soul. She won't be taking many evocations, prefering buffs, divinations, and enchantments instead. For now the only exception she seems to make is Meteor Swarm, mostly so she can cast Time Stop and blow someone up. If the character ends up with good Knowledge skills or Lore or a similar ability, all the better. (Yes, I realize it might not be possible.)

Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 6/X 1 gets us Sorcerer CL 17 and Favored Soul CL 16, possibly +1 if we find another class. Sorcerer 2/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Uncanny Trickster 3/Legacy Champion 4 also gets us Sorcerer CL 17 and Favored Soul CL 16.

Maybe she should just focus on one side and wait until epic to get dual 9ths?

[Urpriest]

Time Stop and Meteor Swarm can't be combined anyway. That's something you both know, since the whole concept of Time Stop is that you can't cast spells like Meteor Swarm.

In general, giving a Divine caster some Arcane flavor or an Arcane caster some Divine flavor is quite easy, while having both progressions is hard. Why does she want both sources of casting? What is she trying to do? She can blast as a Favored Soul almost as effectively as a Sorceror, or buff as a Sorceror almost as well as a Favored Soul, so that's not a good reason to go Theurge.

[Valwyn]

Yeah, I forgot to mention to her that instantaneous effects don't work in a Time Stop. I don't think she's too familiar with the actual rules, having played mostly computer games based off DnD (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, etc) rather than actual PnP games.

I'm not exactly sure why she wants 9ths on both lists, maybe she just likes the idea. I think she just likes the image of wielding both the strongest spells around (she's not a munchkin, mind you, many times she's chosen unoptimal feats/spells because they fitted her ideas better). Her character concept changed a few times (started as a warlock/ranger, then lore master/diplomat, now this), so I'm not exactly sure what she wants.

[Tulya]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm

Generic Spellcaster is a substantially 'cleaner' option that casts spells spontaneously and gets to choose from both arcane and divine spell lists (Sor/Wiz, Clr and Dru rather). You can take it through 20 levels and gain extra general bonus feats or your choice from a assortment of class features, or prestige class out instead.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, I forgot to mention to her that instantaneous effects don't work in a Time Stop. I don't think she's too familiar with the actual rules, having played mostly computer games based off DnD (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, etc) rather than actual PnP games.

I'm not exactly sure why she wants 9ths on both lists, maybe she just likes the idea. I think she just likes the image of wielding both the strongest spells around (she's not a munchkin, mind you, many times she's chosen unoptimal feats/spells because they fitted her ideas better). Her character concept changed a few times (started as a warlock/ranger, then lore master/diplomat, now this), so I'm not exactly sure what she wants.

I'd advise going with a Sorceror or a Favored Soul, and getting spells from the other sort. There are several prestige classes that add spells from one list to the other. Maybe you can ask her which spells in particular she finds most interesting.

[navar100]

Is the player insistent on an arcane/divine spellcasting theurge? Is spontaneous casting important to the concept?

If the player is flexible to options, Arcane Heirophant works well for a wizard/druid theurge. Another option is Ultimate Magus for a wizard/sorcerer build, getting good mileage for metamagic use.

If the player really, really wants sorcerer/favored soul, that's fine. Just curious.

[Valwyn]

I'd advise going with a Sorceror or a Favored Soul, and getting spells from the other sort. There are several prestige classes that add spells from one list to the other. Maybe you can ask her which spells in particular she finds most interesting.

Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe I can convince her to get into a fast casting progression PrC...

If she goes epic, does her spellcasting still advance if she didn't reach caster level 20? The Epic Level Handbook says "However, your spells per day don’t increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat." I'm not sure if it means character level or caster level. I assume the latter.


Is the player insistent on an arcane/divine spellcasting theurge? Is spontaneous casting important to the concept?

If the player is flexible to options, Arcane Heirophant works well for a wizard/druid theurge. Another option is Ultimate Magus for a wizard/sorcerer build, getting good mileage for metamagic use.

If the player really, really wants sorcerer/favored soul, that's fine. Just curious.

I think spontaneous is important for her since the character is chaotic.

She seems set on Sorcerer/FS at the moment. Maybe she'll change her mind later, but for now she'd like to use that combination.

[Tulya]

There are several references to the same rule scattered throughout different splatbooks, variably using 'level', 'character level', and 'caster level', while the Epic Level Handbook FAQ interprets the meaning as 'class level'.

Edit: That is, the official writings are confusingly inconsistent, so it's pretty much whatever you adjudicate as DM.

[Larkas]

Well, if you're open to some very stinky cheese...

1) Qualify for MT as you normally would. Get a level in MT, putting skill ranks into the skills needed to qualify for it. Get a permanent level drain, losing a level in the class you had two levels in. Go Sorcerer 1/ Favored Soul 1/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 8.

2) Get bonus hit dice somehow. Buy ranks in the skills needed for MT. Go Sorcerer 1/ Favored Soul 1/ Mystic Theurge 10/ Legacy Champion 8.

... What? I warned it was stinky.

[Pinkie Pyro]

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. ... These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

there is no rule saying a regular old sorcerer can't just cast divine spells...

[Urpriest]

there is no rule saying a regular old sorcerer can't just cast divine spells...

That applies to every class, though, that's just the basic spell research rules. In general it shouldn't be applied at this point in 3.5, since the game has lots of ways to put "divine" spells onto an arcane chassis and vice versa.