Least Punishing type of Dragon for a Player to play?

[CyberThread]

What type of dragon, gives the most, once you consider LA and HD adjustments for wyrmlings and the such, that is the most forgiving for a player to pick?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Battle Dragon. Some of the lowest HD and LA (I think a wyrmling comes to 6 on a 4/+2 split). It gets Perform as a racial skill so nicely segues into bard/bardic PrCs.

[CyberThread]

hmm where to find such dragons?

[ZamielVanWeber]

It is one of the planar dragons in Draconomicon. Lemme go double check them numbers.

[CyberThread]

yep, although I heard mumbling of steel dragons being good also. 5HD + 2LA

[ZamielVanWeber]

It 5 hd with +2 LA. You do get a lot for the privilege: true dragon traits, two breath weapons, +2 str, +4 Con, +2 Cha, +5 nat armor, immunity to sonic, a fly speed, and some other small goodies to boot. If you go bard you can stay relevant for the entire time.

[ZamielVanWeber]

yep, although I heard mumbling of steel dragons being good also. 5HD + 2LA

They are not bad. Ethereal is a trap. You trade out 1 hit die for one breath weapon instead of 2, worse stats, and a dramatic drop in fly capacity. And a virtually pointless immunity to ether cyclones instead of sonic.

Fang's come in at 3/+3, making them another very low solid. No breath weapon, but their bite deals Con damage, so they make interesting assassins. Beware the default tiny size.

[Segev]

I personally find pseudodragons and white dragon wyrmlings (+3 LA/2HD and +2 LA/3HD, respectively) to be acceptable choices. The latter are better early, because the extra HD gives a bit more durability, but the former level better once you can start buying off the LA.

In either case, I actually recommend Dragonfire Adept. Gives a white dragon wyrmling surprising breath weapon versatility (to those who encounter it), and gives a pseudodragon the iconic breath weapon it so desperately lacks. Dragontouched is, admittedly, a worthless bonus feat to them.

[Darrin]

yep, although I heard mumbling of steel dragons being good also. 5HD + 2LA

Monster Mayhem: Steel Dragon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a)

[CyberThread]

<-< ambush drake nice stuff.

[Darrin]

<-< ambush drake nice stuff.

Savage Progressions: Ambush Drake (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060728a)

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9064.0

Read that thread.

[WhamBamSam]

I'll echo the Steel Dragon as generally being the best one. White Dragons and Battle Dragons are also okay I guess. The LA is low enough to buy off, and Dragon HD are actually decent.

The Mercury Wyrmling warrants some mention as well, with its 3HD/2LA and 200ft perfect fly speed. There are a lot of builds that it can do well.

Blue Wyrmling is brutal at ECL 10 (6/4), but it has the class skills to qualify for Ur Priest, so if you cheese it out a bit (Soveriegn Archetypes, auto-qualification for things requiring Dragonblood by virtue of being a dragon, Age Cursing, etc) it can be a viable gish at high levels.

Brown Wyrmling is also potentially not terrible at mid to high levels. 6HD/2LA Medium size, 500ft Tremorsense, and 60ft Burrow, though it can't fly. It's an option for a lot of the same builds you'd use White Wyrmling in.

There are probably others I'm forgetting. This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3070) thread is an excellent resource. In general though, I'd say go with either Steel or Mercury.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Where is the LA posted for steel dragon? As far as can tell that is listed without one (which leaves me unable to debate steel at all).

[CyberThread]

monsters of faerun or dragons of faerun 4 hd 2 la

[ZamielVanWeber]

That is obscene. I prefet battle dragons for their ability to sneak into bard PrCs and psuedo dragons because cute...

[WhamBamSam]

That is obscene. I prefet battle dragons for their ability to sneak into bard PrCs and psuedo dragons because cute...Eh, the Steel's LA can be bought off, and with Loredrake it has 3rd Level Sorc casting. Steel also gets Alternate Form, which means per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType) it's proficient with Simple Weapons and you can therefore add pelvic thrusts to your attack routine by taking Improved Unarmed Strike should you want to go the Gish route. Not bad, especially if your DM is permissive on various other bits of Dragon cheese (Occasional use of Age Cursing, auto-qualification for a Singer of Concordance dip, and so on).

You can get Perform as a class skill for any True Dragon by using the Passion's Flame Soveriegn Archetype (Hell, a Passion's Flame Steel Wyrmling also has Rage 1/day out of the box thanks to its Sorc level), though I agree that Battle Dragons having it out of the box is nice, as you can get the skill if you need it and still take a better archetype, like Loredrake or Wyrm of War.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I meant the +2 is low compared to what the other dragons get to scarf down. Psuedo dragon is far worse and eats a +3.

[Gavinfoxx]

I meant the +2 is low compared to what the other dragons get to scarf down. Psuedo dragon is far worse and eats a +3.

And yet, we only barely tend to consider the Steel Dragon playable, for the most part...

[ZamielVanWeber]

Because crushes LA and smacks aside even true dragon hit dice. Sometimes, though, you just wanna be a dragon.

[Spuddles]

Tome Dragon, from dragon magazine 331, is best, IMO. Comes with sorc casting as a wyrmling, qualifying it for loredrake, riddled and spellhoarding (dragon 313).

It also knows all conjuration and divination spells. Spontaneously casting all conjuration & divination spells is pretty sweet.

I think it comes with 5 LA and 3 RHD.

It's better as a cohort, via Dragon Cohort, from Draconomicon. Drops LA down to +3.

[Gavinfoxx]

Tome Dragon, from dragon magazine 331, is best, IMO. Comes with sorc casting as a wyrmling, qualifying it for loredrake, riddled and spellhoarding (dragon 313).

It also knows all conjuration and divination spells. Spontaneously casting all conjuration & divination spells is pretty sweet.

I think it comes with 5 LA and 3 RHD.

It's better as a cohort, via Dragon Cohort, from Draconomicon. Drops LA down to +3.

I linked to a VERY interesting discussion on which is better, Tome Dragon or Steel Dragon. It's a close race, with the various options available to both.

[CyberThread]

Am curious on what folks mean here by white dragon builds and such.

I know ambush drake tends to be swordsage/pounce barbarian

Battle Dragon , seems to be begging for a dip into faerun's warrior skald, with that perform skill it gets.

[Spuddles]

I linked to a VERY interesting discussion on which is better, Tome Dragon or Steel Dragon. It's a close race, with the various options available to both.

Ah, apologies. I simply ctrl+f "tome" in this thread and didn't see it.